[PvE] Celestial stats in need of a trim.

[Phyb.6704]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Except nothing works the way you seem to think it does.  If it worked the way you wanted it to, celestial would be completely worthless and nobody would use it except boosted players who don't know any better, which is what the change to celestial booster stats was intended to address in the first place.

No it does not work the way I want it to. I want it to follow the power budget balance philosophy that anet detailed. I want stats to be more impactful on damage, healing and survival. I want the % bonuses to be stat dependant by making the % scale off stat / 100 = % or something of that sort. 
Nothing works the way I seem to want it to. AKA nothing works the way anet detailed it was supposed to work. 
The developer has long since left the whole power budget within their philosophy behind and taken lazy aproaches and put "bandaids on bullet wounds". 

I want the philosophy to be held to and the power budget respected for proper balance. Said budget on stat sets would also involve things like stat totals from one stat set to another as strike damage, condi damage, def, survival and healing is budgeted for in regards to balance. 
I agree with a trim because I do not feel that stat totals are being bugeted for across stat sets. 
This is my own opinion as I quite like the balance philosophy and power budget that the developer detailed. 

[Emberheart.8426]

2 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

No it does not work the way I want it to. I want it to follow the power budget balance philosophy that anet detailed. I want stats to be more impactful on damage, healing and survival. I want the % bonuses to be stat dependant by making the % scale off stat / 100 = % or something of that sort. 
Nothing works the way I seem to want it to. AKA nothing works the way anet detailed it was supposed to work. 
The developer has long since left the whole power budget within their philosophy behind and taken lazy aproaches and put "bandaids on bullet wounds". 

I want the philosophy to be held to and the power budget respected for proper balance. Said budget on stat sets would also involve things like stat totals from one stat set to another as strike damage, condi damage, def, survival and healing is budgeted for in regards to balance. 
I agree with a trim because I do not feel that stat totals are being bugeted for across stat sets. 
This is my own opinion as I quite like the balance philosophy and power budget that the developer detailed. 

You are ignoring damage modifiers and exponential scaling. For example a pure power dps weaver gets at least +50% in damage modifiers at any given time, and even more in some moments of a fight. This means that the effectiveness of all berserker gear stats get 50% more value at the very least. To top of this ferocity is nearly useless without lots of power and precision, so it's a wasted non-stat in cele gear. You need the three stats in large quantities as they empower each other. 

But yes, having higher numbers in your stat sheet obviously matters more because you said so. The stats are higher so that the power budget is similar due to how traits work. If it had a similar stat total it would be a completely worthless set.

[CafPow.1542]

Today i made insane damage in a fractal cause of all the toughness and healingpower my uber-celegear provides.

all those stats woohoo!

[Jski.6180]

Why do you need vit and armor in pve?

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Why do you need vit and armor in pve?

Because it’s OP!!! Nerf cele in pve!

(in case it’s not clear: I’m joking)

 

/edit

necros kinda profit from vitality in a dps sense cause they can pool more LF but only theoretically cause pure berserker is better for pure dps)

Edited January 27 by CafPow.1542

[Phyb.6704]

13 hours ago, Emberheart.8426 said:

You are ignoring damage modifiers and exponential scaling. For example a pure power dps weaver gets at least +50% in damage modifiers at any given time, and even more in some moments of a fight. This means that the effectiveness of all berserker gear stats get 50% more value at the very least. To top of this ferocity is nearly useless without lots of power and precision, so it's a wasted non-stat in cele gear. You need the three stats in large quantities as they empower each other. 

But yes, having higher numbers in your stat sheet obviously matters more because you said so. The stats are higher so that the power budget is similar due to how traits work. If it had a similar stat total it would be a completely worthless set.

I said I want damage %+ to scale off stats. Did not ignore it.

Having stuff not scale off stats is a cop out and is lazy. Instead of actually adjusting scaling of stats for certain skills / traits just giving a flat % is bad for balance. You still get that % regardless of a stat investment. If it was +1% dmg for every 100 power then there is now incentive to stack power vs getting the extra modifier well you have gear on that gives 0 power such as magi. Proper balance is to adjust the scaling and tune traits / skills. Lazy balance is.... oh its doing too little dps..... just give the elite spec a extra 5% modifier on one of the traits. Done. This is part of what I explained before. Traits that give barrier / healing should give 0 of either if you have 0 healing power. Traits that give a % dmg bonus should give 0 % if you have 0 investment into power for strike or condi for condi. 

My opinion is everything should be stat dependant. No free dmg bonuses, healing, or barrier without investing into the corresponding dmg or defensive stats. Everything should give zero and do zero with 0 investment in regards to stats. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

24 minutes ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

I said I want damage %+ to scale off stats. Did not ignore it.

Having stuff not scale off stats is a cop out and is lazy. Instead of actually adjusting scaling of stats for certain skills / traits just giving a flat % is bad for balance. You still get that % regardless of a stat investment. If it was +1% dmg for every 100 power then there is now incentive to stack power vs getting the extra modifier well you have gear on that gives 0 power such as magi. Proper balance is to adjust the scaling and tune traits / skills. Lazy balance is.... oh its doing too little dps..... just give the elite spec a extra 5% modifier on one of the traits. Done. This is part of what I explained before. Traits that give barrier / healing should give 0 of either if you have 0 healing power. Traits that give a % dmg bonus should give 0 % if you have 0 investment into power for strike or condi for condi. 

My opinion is everything should be stat dependant. No free dmg bonuses, healing, or barrier without investing into the corresponding dmg or defensive stats. Everything should give zero and do zero with 0 investment in regards to stats. 

Most stat multipliers are not free. They require a specific trait selection over another benefit. 

[CafPow.1542]

What are you talking about guys?

it literally doesn’t matter how much and what kind of modifier we are dealing with or what would it be to balance modifiers around cause it is literally pointless.

modifier x applies to a stat.

power * x = damage

cele vs zerker does change the amount of power. Changing the modifier will not change the outcome of how cele behaves in comparison to zerker.

[Solori.6025]

....Why is this even a discussion though? If cele was the best. The best would use it.  For everything. It isn't, so why in PvE does this warrant ire? 

Like WvW cele is a massive problem ( PvP rules in WvW when?) but PvE?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I like how we have gone from:

Cele is giga OP and needs a nerf. 

To:

Cele is a good niche stat combo. Trust me bro. Please. 😭😭😭

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I like how we have gone from:

Cele is giga OP and needs a nerf. 

To:

Cele is a good niche stat combo. Trust me bro. Please. 😭😭😭

Except it's really not. I don't fully understand this WvW celestial god people are talking about, but I play with my fiancee, pretty much exclusively OW. I run complete celestial, she runs Occums, otherwise known as Carrion. And while I do have higher stats than she does in a lot of categories because she has literally ZERO bonuses there, her Power, Condi, and Vitality are all higher than mine. Because of course they are. The weird thing is that lets say that we balanced the stats and cut celestian down to the same numbers as everyone else. I would STILL have more in the stats she didn't buff, it just wouldn't be as much. So at the end of the day the OP still isn't getting what they want even if they get what they want. The only thing that's gonna make them happy is if Celestial is removed from the game, because now all those freeloading players like myself will have to pick a new armor that's more in line with THEIR view of the game.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I don't fully understand this WvW celestial god people are talking about, but I play with my fiancee, pretty much exclusively OW.

It's simple to understand, really.

In competitive modes each stat is worth gold while in PvE OW only offensive stats are worth using. Thus the value of celestial stat explode in WvW while it's not that good in PvE. This is all about the difference between playing against players and playing against mobs in GW2.

[CafPow.1542]

12 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's simple to understand, really.

In competitive modes each stat is worth gold while in PvE OW only offensive stats are worth using. Thus the value of celestial stat explode in WvW while it's not that good in PvE. This is all about the difference between playing against players and playing against mobs in GW2.

Prerty much althoni think it’s mostly boonduration that is a problem, not the entirety of the stats but…. That’s another thing. Cele is certainly strong in wvw. And it can be super useful in ow aswell but nobody cares about ow. Ow is just for fun (which is awesome)

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

That’s another thing. Cele is certainly strong in wvw. And it can be super useful in ow aswell but nobody cares about ow. Ow is just for fun (which is awesome)

   So the players which are asking for nerfs in celestial are the ones which play instanced group content in which most  doesn't even run celestial. Can you please go back to your grave of dead game modes? Here outside people are having fun...

[CafPow.1542]

7 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   So the players which are asking for nerfs in celestial are the ones which play instanced group content in which most  doesn't even run celestial. Can you please go back to your grave of dead game modes? Here outside people are having fun...

What?

pls start making sense. Celestial in pve is irrelevant.

[Aeolus.3615]

Just cut the extra stats celestial offer by half if i reccal its arround 40% boon duration make it 20% or just remove boon duration and condi duration again from the the stats, other way is reduce all stats but spread to the total of stats of other sets.

Edited February 2 by Aeolus.3615

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Just cut the extra stats celestial offer by half if i reccal its arround 40% boon duration make it 20% or just remove boon duration and condi duration again from the the stats, other way is reduce all stats but spread to the total of stats of other sets.

Yes to boon duration i can see that.

why expertise tho? Could also be ferocity or precision..?

[Aeolus.3615]

Just now, CafPow.1542 said:

Yes to boon duration i can see that.

why expertise tho? Could also be ferocity or precision..?

boon duration and expertise were the 2 boon that have been on and off, but yes could be some other stats besides boon duration, even healing power could be off xD for example

remove boon duration and healing power from celestial, and make minstrell similar with celestial but w/o other 2 stats and add boon duration and healing power... many things can be done for better results in balance... IF Anet wants it that's another story.

[CafPow.1542]

35 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

boon duration and expertise were the 2 boon that have been on and off, but yes could be some other stats besides boon duration, even healing power could be off xD for example

remove boon duration and healing power from celestial, and make minstrell similar with celestial but w/o other 2 stats and add boon duration and healing power... many things can be done for better results in balance... IF Anet wants it that's another story.

I ask specifically about expertise cause of the damage….

you have 3 strike stats (power, precision, ferocity) and 2 condi stats (condiduration and expertise).

so as i can see it, why not delete ferocity for example. But generally to balance cele out reducing 2 stats would be a path.

althoni generally would reduce boon duration across all gamemodes and all stats but that’s another thing.

[Infinity.2876]

The reason why celestial is such a strong stat set is because every sing profession can use it to some extent. 

power: directly linked to base dmg, even on condi builds it can be beneficial.

precision: linked to crit chance, if everyone has any amount of crit dmg (they do) then they can benifit.

ferocity: everyone has the potential to crit so can benefit.

healing power: everyone has a heal skill, so they benefit, other professions like elementalist, vindi, and guardian have some healing built into their base kit as well.

concentration: most builds create some number of boons. Most builds benefit.

condition dmg: only effects application of conditions so all condi builds plus other power builds that apply dmging conditions.

expertise: affects duration of conditions. Condi builds benefit and anything that applies soft cc.

Most builds benefit from a wide variety of traits, especially ones that have more selfheal skills and apply dmging conditions.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

I think this thread has gone in completely the wrong direction. Completely wrong, from the start, right from the OP. The problem here isn't celestial stats. The problem here is LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE.

Delete ALL other stats. Trash ALL the armor that isn't Celestial and make everyone run with the same stats. THEN, and get this, balancing the game will be so much easier since everyone will have the same output and all those players saying that they need to run zerk or viper so they can hit top tier DPS? Oh I love this: Instead of relying on your gear and stats to play the game for you, why don't you Learn To Play and Git Gud.

Checkmate, skrittbrains.

[CafPow.1542]

15 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I think this thread has gone in completely the wrong direction. Completely wrong, from the start, right from the OP. The problem here isn't celestial stats. The problem here is LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE.

Delete ALL other stats. Trash ALL the armor that isn't Celestial and make everyone run with the same stats. THEN, and get this, balancing the game will be so much easier since everyone will have the same output and all those players saying that they need to run zerk or viper so they can hit top tier DPS? Oh I love this: Instead of relying on your gear and stats to play the game for you, why don't you Learn To Play and Git Gud.

Checkmate, skrittbrains.

I would like that. Even just for a week, imagine the meltdown ^^

[CafPow.1542]

33 minutes ago, Infinity.2876 said:

The reason why celestial is such a strong stat set is because every sing profession can use it to some extent. 

power: directly linked to base dmg, even on condi builds it can be beneficial.

precision: linked to crit chance, if everyone has any amount of crit dmg (they do) then they can benifit.

ferocity: everyone has the potential to crit so can benefit.

healing power: everyone has a heal skill, so they benefit, other professions like elementalist, vindi, and guardian have some healing built into their base kit as well.

concentration: most builds create some number of boons. Most builds benefit.

condition dmg: only effects application of conditions so all condi builds plus other power builds that apply dmging conditions.

expertise: affects duration of conditions. Condi builds benefit and anything that applies soft cc.

Most builds benefit from a wide variety of traits, especially ones that have more selfheal skills and apply dmging conditions.

Correct, but this only applies for pvp situations. In pve this is completely irrelevant.

Edited February 2 by CafPow.1542

[Buran.3796]

11 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

What?

pls start making sense. Celestial in pve is irrelevant.

  That word...  I think that doesn't mean what you think.

  Most of the content in the game is OW PVE, and most of it is oftenly done alone (in my case, like 95% of the time). I don't see a reason to run anything but celestial in PvE, outside maybe playing power Bladesworn, at which power is an optimal choice, eclipsed by the fact that Bladesworn is a suboptimal choice of spec in first place.

   And is fine. The game has 99 runes, 95 of them are useless, as most of sigils and most of relics. On paper PvP has 16 amulets yet 40% of them are never used and the meta uses only 4-5. The game is full of amazing permutations of stats that do literally nothing, with gear which is instantly salvaged as drops because has atribute points wasted outside the 5-6 combinations considered "valauable", and can be argued that that number could ever be halved with no impact. You could reduce the stats to berserker, viper and minstrel and the game would remain the same, yet in any place in which trailblazer or celkestial exist those would be arguably better, as long as you're playing alone...  Which oh surprise! is what a lot of players do in MMOs those days.

[CafPow.1542]

38 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

Most of the content in the game is OW PVE, and most of it is oftenly done alone (in my case, like 95% of the time). I don't see a reason to run anything but celestial in PvE, outside maybe playing power Bladesworn, at which power is an optimal choice, eclipsed by the fact that Bladesworn is a suboptimal choice of spec in first place

Yes okay, but nobody cares. No salty 12 year old deadeye will flood the forum with his tears cause you ganked him in dragonfall cause that is literally impossible.

and the same guy won’t cry around in the forum aswell cause you served him is backside in arcdps in this cm-fractal cause you won’t manage to do that with celestial (you just don’t) and ouside of it he doesn’t care.

ow is really big and it’s fun, i like it. But no measurment balancewise in this game takes ow into account, so playing cele in ow is irrelevant for this discussion.

we have 3 situations:

1) open world, see explanation above. Nobody cares balancewise. As long as everybody gets stuff done, it’s good. (And only between us: power reaper is way better and more effective than any cele build…)

2) instanced pve: cele is just inefficient there. Half of the stats are always wasted.

3) wvw. But the thread here isn’t about wvw (and again between the two of us, most wvw complaints come from people that can’t oneshot others and therefor think it’s unfair so cele needs a nerf lol.)

Edited February 2 by CafPow.1542