The "Radiant Fire" change is confusing.

[Liewec.2896]

hey guys, so i have read the balance preview patch notes and this struck me as weird.

"We've also reworked the Radiant Fire trait to be less dependent on always having a torch equipped"

this got me thinking a nice buff might be coming for those of us who don't run torch.

But then below we see what Anet have planned: 

"Radiant Fire: This trait no longer grants Zealot's Flame when critically striking an enemy, and instead it grants an additional ammunition to Zealot's Flame."

so can someone help me out here? because i fail to see how making the trait do NOTHING unless you're running a torch is making it less dependent on running torch...

for my hybrid damage build who doesn't run torch and was relying on Radiant Fire for burn dmg this will be a big fat nerf.

[CraftyK.9062]

This change is indeed a nerf if you were only using the trait for the Zealot's Flame proc

The change is supposed to allow people who run/would run Torch with a different off-hand (Sword, Focus, soon Pistol) to not run into the situations where Radiant Fire procs just as one throws the fireball, effectively wasting a stack of a fireball.

Whether or not the change ends up as a net nerf or buff depends on tuning

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Yeah, the general theory is probably that condi builds run axe/torch or sword/torch in one set, pistol/pistol in the other. The optimal thing is usually to throw the fireball, so with the current functionality of the trait, having it proc at any time when you don't have a torch out is a DPS loss. With the change, you can throw two fireballs and then freely swap to pistols, Tome of Justice, or whatever it happens to be.

[Dadnir.5038]

The phrasing of the change is poor. All in all it mean that they changed the trait in such a way that, after the change, the player should feel less compeled to camp torch and thus more open to having a different OH weapon on their secondary weaponset.

Also, yes, at a glance it's a nerf for any fight that last longer than 20s. The only unknown in the equation being how much additional burning there will be on zealot flame in PvE (I also hope that they meant Zealot fire instead of Zealot flame because it's not looking great either if they truly mean Zealot flame).

[rosento.6830]

Well what this really means is non torch builds will no longer benefit from it, while torch builds will still have to be on torch to benefit from it(even tough they might let you gain a charge on your other weapon). But that charge does less overall damage than the initial flaming aoe does. SO you would LOSE the additional flaming aoe(zealots fire) to get a charge for the weaker(zealots flame). I dont know why other people think this doesnt work when the torch isnt out. Right now when it procs, say on my hammer... i get a pulsing aoe burn. With this patch, ill lose that, and what about the additonal burn duration? are we going to lose that too? It wasnt specified.

Edited January 25 by rosento.6830

[Fueki.4753]

If you don't use Torch, it'll be a straight up nerf to you.

In my opinion, that's the most important take-away from that change.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, rosento.6830 said:

Well what this really means is non torch builds will no longer benefit from it, while torch builds will still have to be on torch to benefit from it(even tough they might let you gain a charge on your other weapon). But that charge does less overall damage than the initial flaming aoe does. SO you would LOSE the additional flaming aoe(zealots fire) to get a charge for the weaker(zealots flame). I dont know why other people think this doesnt work when the torch isnt out. Right now when it procs, say on my hammer... i get a pulsing aoe burn. With this patch, ill lose that, and what about the additonal burn duration? are we going to lose that too? It wasnt specified.

It's generally taken that you want to throw the fire rather than letting it pulse. So if you have a torch on either set, having the trait trigger when you're not on torch is a DPS loss. Condition guardian builds therefore tend to either have torch out permanently, or they have to time their weaponswaps or tome usage such that the trait will never trigger while they don't have torch out.

This would make offhand pistol far less attractive, so they naturally had to change this before introducing pistols, since it looks bad when a newly introduced weapon goes unused.

The few guardian condi builds that never used torch at all are simply collateral damage.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If you don't use Torch, it'll be a straight up nerf to you.

In my opinion, that's the most important take-away from that change.

Yes. It's a clear nerf to any build that doesn't use a torch, which is sad. The only reason to take the trait anymore will be the +20% burn duration. This wouldn't sting so bad if the other master traits were better (the lesser signet) or not need power AND resolution.

[cat.8975]

This change allows condi builds to use a second weapon set that doesn't have a torch on it without worrying about missing out on the proc throws. After the change, you'll have 2 fireballs to throw with every torch 4 cast. With a cooldown of 9.6s (with alacrity), this means you'll be able to use the skill twice every time you're on torch (if you're swapping weapons off cd) for a total of 4 throws. May have the unintended side effect of cwb builds continuing to camp torch thanks to the cdr from Restorative Virtues, but we'll have to see how off-hand pistol holds up against it.

[Fueki.4753]

6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yes. It's a clear nerf to any build that doesn't use a torch, which is sad. The only reason to take the trait anymore will be the +20% burn duration. This wouldn't sting so bad if the other master traits were better (the lesser signet) or not need power AND resolution.

They should just make the new ammunition charge baseline for Torch and give the trait something new that benefits all weapons, in addition to the 20% duration increase.

Even if it just gave critical hits a 5% or 10% chance to inflict one more stack of Burning, it'd be better than what they are planning to do.

[Dadnir.5038]

15 hours ago, rosento.6830 said:

SO you would LOSE the additional flaming aoe(zealots fire) to get a charge for the weaker(zealots flame).

That's the other way around. The flaming aoe is Zealot's flame while Zealot's fire is a single target glorified fire ball. However, in the current setting most tend to camp torch and throw the Zealot's fire as soon as it's up.

1 hour ago, cat.8975 said:

After the change, you'll have 2 fireballs to throw with every torch 4 cast.

Nope, what you say would be the case if it was Zealot's fire that got the ammunition. They clearly write Zealot's flame which is the aoe and carry the 15s base CD. Thus one should understand it as torch#4 getting 2 charges with 15s CD (down to 9.6s CD with both torch CD reduction and alacrity) each.

In practice, you can currently throw a Zealot's fire every 5s with full CD reduction. After the change, you'll be able to throw 2 zealot's fire every 20s (with full CD reduction). Or, if you camp torch, you'll throw 2 Zealot's fire at the beginning of the fight and then 1 every 10s (full CD reduction included).

The way this is phrased:

Quote

This trait also causes Zealot's Flame to inflict additional burning to enemies in PvE only.

Mean that they push additional burning on the burning "aura", like an incentive to use less the "fireball" and focus on the passive burn at melee range. And, if it mean that you'll apply 2 burn stacks on each tic after the change, that's effectively pretty interesting for melee builds as you'd get the lost fireballs burns "refounded" by simply waiting 2s before throwing the "fireball". That said, if someone was using torch as a strike weapon (because the "fireball" and torch#5 can hit pretty hard on strike damage builds), it will still be a big fat nerf with no "refound".

 

Edited January 26 by Dadnir.5038

[Gaiawolf.8261]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

They should just make the new ammunition charge baseline for Torch and give the trait something new that benefits all weapons, in addition to the 20% duration increase.

Even if it just gave critical hits a 5% or 10% chance to inflict one more stack of Burning, it'd be better than what they are planning to do.

I get that they are going for an interactive design, like using the proc or now ammo, to fuel extra Zealot's Fire with the trait selection. That's okay, depending on the build, and can be fun. I just think it should be something that can benefit other weapon selections. Maybe with VoJ that all guardians get regardless of build or weapon selection. Something like:

Critical hits add one stack of Radiant Fire (ICD 3-4s). Activating VoJ consumes all stacks of Radiant Fire to damage and burn foes around you. Deal more burning per stack of Radiant Fire. Consuming [max] stacks of Radiant Fire also applies Blind and Revealed.

Just off the top of my head. Only issue I can see might be loading too much burst on willbender VoJ with the VoJ recharge trait on kill. But that can be managed with moderating the base damage, since you need to build stacks to use it effectively.

Off course, they could  give us better options for the other master traits if they want to keep Radiant Fire tied to the torch. But the lesser wrath signet is too unreliable for its long CD, and the bottom trait relies on both power and resolution. There will be no trait left that can benefit a wide variety of builds in the master slot.

Edited January 26 by Gaiawolf.8261

[mirage.8046]

6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I get that they are going for an interactive design, like using the proc or now ammo, to fuel extra Zealot's Fire with the trait selection. That's okay, depending on the build, and can be fun. I just think it should be something that can benefit other weapon selections. Maybe with VoJ that all guardians get regardless of build or weapon selection. Something like:

Critical hits add one stack of Radiant Fire (ICD 3-4s). Activating VoJ consumes all stacks of Radiant Fire to damage and burn foes around you. Deal more burning per stack of Radiant Fire. Consuming [max] stacks of Radiant Fire also applies Blind and Revealed.

Just off the top of my head. Only issue I can see might be loading too much burst on willbender VoJ with the VoJ recharge trait on kill. But that can be managed with moderating the base damage, since you need to build stacks to use it effectively.

Off course, they could  give us better options for the other master traits if they want to keep Radiant Fire tied to the torch. But the lesser wrath signet is too unreliable for its long CD, and the bottom trait relies on both power and resolution. There will be no trait left that can benefit a wide variety of builds in the master slot.

I like this idea as it'd promote the condi playstyle rather than waiting for torch 4's fireball to proc after a critical hit. They could always shave a bit of the burning duration.

As for lesser wrath signet trait, it is one of many useless-to-bad traits! I'd like to see this trait pulse burning when you immobilize an enemy, which would seriously help scepter be a hybrid weapon. (This used to exist on stoic demeanor where your slow, CC, or immobilizes triggered slow and burn, and additionally from mantras with weighty terms; it opened up more interesting picks for utilities imo). Of course, taking such a trait means sacrificing radiant fire if you still want to use torch, but at least you'd have another viable trait in the master section.

[Saiyan.1704]

On 1/25/2024 at 12:55 PM, rosento.6830 said:

Well what this really means is non torch builds will no longer benefit from it, while torch builds will still have to be on torch to benefit from it(even tough they might let you gain a charge on your other weapon). But that charge does less overall damage than the initial flaming aoe does. SO you would LOSE the additional flaming aoe(zealots fire) to get a charge for the weaker(zealots flame). I dont know why other people think this doesnt work when the torch isnt out....

@rosento.6830's comment needs to be emphasized because this thread shows how confusing the new torch trait changes will be implemented........

No Torch: (lets say you are hammer/longbow after torch trait change): - You get nothing. You throw nothing. You get a skirt that might look like flame. Good day sir.

With Torch: - The skill (torch#4) is now an ammo. Can throw the second torch how ever you like. When ever. Just downed a player? it's OK, you didn't waste a Torch#4 burst because you have a second one to throw.

Essentially, it emphasizes you to rotate how you usually rotate with Torch on offhand..... because you WILL have a second torch to throw when it procs for you to throw it (crit).  For the rare Guardian Power Burst PvP Players.... rejoice. This gives you double the torch#4, 4k damage (maybe 5k?) when used correctly back to back.. this 100% competes with power burst pistol offhand that does similar raw power damage except at range.

Edited January 28 by Saiyan.1704

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

For the rare Guardian Power Burst PvP Players.... rejoice. This gives you double the torch#4, 4k damage (maybe 5k?) when used correctly back to back..

It give nothing, being able to use it back to back is something that the trait already allow. As a matter of fact this new ammo system (as it's phrased) is a 50% nerf to the skill for power builds that force you to take a different off-hand on your secondary weaponset. And if it wasn't enough, in competitive mode it's also a 50% nerf to Zealot's flame's condition output.

A nerf is a nerf. This change benefit neither condi builds nor power burst builds. It's merely a "hole" that they artificially made in order to encourage players to switch to a different off-hand.

[zeyeti.8347]

This is done for player to play condi with axe/torch and pistol/pistol next , before that it was really hard to switch to a non torch weapon set and get value of that trait at 100% , now with an ammo system you can fully release it when you want and not be dependent on a 10 sec internal cd on a critical strike proc. it's a nerf to non torch user , but a real good commodity for torch user who use another weapon than torch in the other set of weapon.

[Dadnir.5038]

56 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

it's a nerf to non torch user

It is not only a nerf to non torch user. Torch users that won't have access to pistol for one reason or another also get nerfed.

[zeyeti.8347]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It is not only a nerf to non torch user. Torch users that won't have access to pistol for one reason or another also get nerfed.

yeah i reread the note and now i kind of get the point you all say i didn't saw , basically it's a 2 x 12 cd skill instead of being a 12 cd skill with another 10 sec skill not shared cooldown, making it if you use the two ammo a 24 sec cd skill for the two ammunition instead of a 12 and 10 seperate cd skill ? i am also a bit confused reading the note , not gonna lie, just tell me if i am right , if no i'd love some insights.

Edited January 28 by zeyeti.8347

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

yeah i reread the note and now i kind of get the point you all say i didn't saw , basically it's a 2 x 12 cd skill instead of being a 12 cd skill with another 10 sec skill not shared cooldown, making it if you use the two ammo a 24 sec cd skill for the two ammunition instead of a 12 and 10 seperate cd skill ? i am also a bit confused reading the note , not gonna lie, just tell me if i am right , if no i'd love some insights.

The way it's phrased in the preview, you're right. I'm not excluding the possibility that the devs might have made a mistake in the balance preview, thought.

Pre patch we have the skill up roughly every 5s (if we assume 100% uptime on alacrity). Post patch we will be able to use it twice at the begining of the fight with each charge on a 10s CD.

In simple terms, right now one can gain zealot's flame 4 times in a 20s cycle consistently while after the patch one will be able to gain it 3 times in the first 20s cycle and then 2 times in the following 20s cycles. 

[Saiyan.1704]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The way it's phrased in the preview, you're right. I'm not excluding the possibility that the devs might have made a mistake in the balance preview, thought.

Pre patch we have the skill up roughly every 5s (if we assume 100% uptime on alacrity). Post patch we will be able to use it twice at the begining of the fight with each charge on a 10s CD.

In simple terms, right now one can gain zealot's flame 4 times in a 20s cycle consistently while after the patch one will be able to gain it 3 times in the first 20s cycle and then 2 times in the following 20s cycles. 

Edited

I understand the dps loss for pve but for pvp there's an advantage to knowing you have a 2x throw when you swap to torch. Currently, you have to be self aware to instantly swap to torch to throw it, IF the proc isn't on cd or weapon swap isn't on cd.

Edited January 28 by Saiyan.1704

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Edited

I understand the dps loss for pve but for pvp there's an advantage to knowing you have a 2x throw when you swap to torch. Currently, you have to be self aware to instantly swap to torch to throw it, IF the proc isn't on cd or weapon swap isn't on cd.

You realize that you can also end up with only a single throw in sPvP after the change? You'll have a 20s CD on having 2 ammo and that is if you have 100% alacrity uptime (which you realistically won't have in sPvP). So, no, you won't "know" that you have 2 throw when you swap to torch, you'll just "hope" that it is the case.

[Saiyan.1704]

3 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You realize that you can also end up with only a single throw in sPvP after the change? You'll have a 20s CD on having 2 ammo and that is if you have 100% alacrity uptime (which you realistically won't have in sPvP). So, no, you won't "know" that you have 2 throw when you swap to torch, you'll just "hope" that it is the case.

If that's the case then I'm even more confused >_< I figured that if I use Torch4, during the downtime I proc the ammo but can't use it? When I have torch back up I'll have 2 to use.

I think my brain stopped working.

[rosento.6830]

Well it turns out their change was NONE OF THE ABOVE. I dont really see how you could compete at all with offhand dps with this new change. 20% cooldown, 2 charge, 50% more base skill burn duration, on top of the global 20% burn duration. No more crits necesary! I dont see any reason now to never switch off of torch. Nerf to all non torch loudouts though.

Edited January 30 by rosento.6830

[Liewec.2896]

21 minutes ago, rosento.6830 said:

Well it turns out their change was NONE OF THE ABOVE. I dont really see how you could compete at all with offhand dps with this new change. 20% cooldown, 2 charge, 50% more base skill burn duration, on top of the global 20% burn duration. No more crits necesary! I dont see any reason now to never switch off of torch. Nerf to all non torch loudouts though.

yep, such a bad change for anyone not permanently running a torch, but hey,

but this is an Anet patch, this is how they make a trait "less dependent on always having a torch equipped"

make it do absolutely nothing unless you're running torch while making perma-torch the way to go.

i am your driving safety instructor, here is your blind fold so you won't crash. 😑

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

It's because the notes and the change contradict each other. I was using it solely for the proc, not the activation. The trait forces players to use torch instead of choosing other build options.