Speed of Sand is the worst trait in the entire game and I can prove it.

[vardeleanu.8972]

On 2/8/2024 at 6:35 AM, Waffles.5632 said:

As you can see, most Minor Grandmaster traits offer valuable utility or 10-15% damage buffs.

If that's what you want I'm sure the balance team would be ecstatic to replace that trait with a generic 10-15% damage buff, but let me tell you, as soon as that 66% speed boost is gone the dps of all the 3 remaining PvE mirage players is gonna go down by 90%, as they will be much slower and will die to any mechanic they could previously walk out of. You really don't notice these speed buffs until they are gone.

On another note, you forget something very important : mirage is a class with not one, but 2 mechanics baseline. The dodge that lets you attack while using it, and the empowered stealth attack that comes with it. Every other class that has dodge modifiers has them in a grandmaster trait slot.

So yes, compared to that I think that mirages minor grandmaster trait is unbalanced, as it shouldn't exist at all : the baseline profession mechanic should be gaining invulnerability and being able to attack while dodging, and the grandmaster trait should be the one giving you the ambush attack coupled with it.

[Waffles.5632]

10 hours ago, vardeleanu.8972 said:

If that's what you want I'm sure the balance team would be ecstatic to replace that trait with a generic 10-15% damage buff, but let me tell you, as soon as that 66% speed boost is gone the dps of all the 3 remaining PvE mirage players is gonna go down by 90%, as they will be much slower and will die to any mechanic they could previously walk out of. You really don't notice these speed buffs until they are gone.

On another note, you forget something very important : mirage is a class with not one, but 2 mechanics baseline. The dodge that lets you attack while using it, and the empowered stealth attack that comes with it. Every other class that has dodge modifiers has them in a grandmaster trait slot.

So yes, compared to that I think that mirages minor grandmaster trait is unbalanced, as it shouldn't exist at all : the baseline profession mechanic should be gaining invulnerability and being able to attack while dodging, and the grandmaster trait should be the one giving you the ambush attack coupled with it.

If you would have read a little bit longer you would have seen this in my OP:

Quote

If you look at Patch Notes for Speed of Sand link you will see Speed of Sand used to give superspeed. I propose Anet make Speed of Sand grant 2-3 secs of AOE superspeed in PvE and 1sec of personal superspeed in PvP/WvW. This will make Speed of Sand fun again because Mirages can make everyone Sonic for PvE, and can be Sonic in PvP/WvW for zoom zooms.

I bolded and underlined to help you.

[vardeleanu.8972]

On 6/1/2024 at 3:30 PM, Waffles.5632 said:

I bolded and underlined to help you.

very funny, let me also bolden and underline this for you

On 6/1/2024 at 5:20 AM, vardeleanu.8972 said:

On another note, you forget something very important : mirage is a class with not one, but 2 mechanics baseline. The dodge that lets you attack while using it, and the empowered stealth attack that comes with it. Every other class that has dodge modifiers has them in a grandmaster trait slot.

So yes, compared to that I think that mirages minor grandmaster trait is unbalanced, as it shouldn't exist at all : the baseline profession mechanic should be gaining invulnerability and being able to attack while dodging, and the grandmaster trait should be the one giving you the ambush attack coupled with it.

Also, maybe there's a reason why the superspeed on dodge was removed from competitive game modes, together with an ENTIRE DODGE BAR. Idk why, I don't play mesmer, and I never cared much for the class other than support chrono, but there must be reason, right ? I wonder what that reason could be

Not to even touch on your idea of giving mirage either another damamage boost or buffs in competitive modes. Like, how do you even come up with that ? Are the 2 default invulnerability buttons, clones, stealth access and teleports the class have not enough already ? Look at what warrior has to do in pvp to be relevant for a comparison and then come and say that mirage needs buffs, or any mesmer build for that matter.

Edited June 2 by vardeleanu.8972

[Supernova Starr.2069]

You know GW2 players lost it when they ask for buffs in already busted espec

[GamerToad.9248]

*laughs in crack shot*

[Kozumi.5816]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:13 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

pvp discord

The admins mute anyone who has different opinions on balance so they can create an echo chamber.

It's a joke.

[Panda.1967]

On 2/21/2024 at 9:03 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Should the trait be baseline for Mirage? Seems no one asked themselves why it wasn't in the first place. "Anet, why do I have to pay a trait to mimic a feature of the standard dodge implementation when it's obvious you want me to have it?" 

No one is asking the why, because we already know the why. We knew it before PoF launched when ANet told us the why in a dev stream. Speed of Sand originally provided Superspeed, this fact alone is the reason why it was a trait rather than simply a baseline modifier on Mirage Cloak. The decision to remove Superspeed from Speed of Sand removed the very justification of it being a trait in the first place.

That is why most in this thread seem to agree on one of two solutions.

1) Revert the change and make it grant Superspeed again.

2) Remove the trait and make its effect baseline to Mirage Cloak.

though there is a 3rd option as well…

3) Add an additional effect to Speed of Sand that justifies it being a trait again.

The question everyone is asking is not, “why is it this way?” but rather, “should it be this way?” Our answer… No, it shouldn’t… and if it never granted Superspeed in the first place it wouldn’t have even been a trait to start with.

[Gesbo.6420]

On 8/3/2024 at 9:52 PM, Panda.1967 said:

No one is asking the why, because we already know the why. We knew it before PoF launched when ANet told us the why in a dev stream. Speed of Sand originally provided Superspeed, this fact alone is the reason why it was a trait rather than simply a baseline modifier on Mirage Cloak. The decision to remove Superspeed from Speed of Sand removed the very justification of it being a trait in the first place.

That is why most in this thread seem to agree on one of two solutions.

1) Revert the change and make it grant Superspeed again.

2) Remove the trait and make its effect baseline to Mirage Cloak.

though there is a 3rd option as well…

3) Add an additional effect to Speed of Sand that justifies it being a trait again.

The question everyone is asking is not, “why is it this way?” but rather, “should it be this way?” Our answer… No, it shouldn’t… and if it never granted Superspeed in the first place it wouldn’t have even been a trait to start with.

I guess the biggest 1 to 1 comparison we can get is why doesn't vindicator have "gain movement speed whrn in air" type of trait... 

[Panda.1967]

10 hours ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

I guess the biggest 1 to 1 comparison we can get is why doesn't vindicator have "gain movement speed whrn in air" type of trait... 

the biggest roadblock to answering that is the fact that the Vindicators actual dodge ability is completely missing from the wiki… the trait they do have just briefly explains what it does and doesn’t actually include the full details. From both the EoD preview and actual player testing, we know the Vindicators dodge does infact include a movement speed increase, though it is not listed. From what people can tell it is roughly equivalent to what Speed of Sand offers right now. Additionally it has an 0.8s evade (it used to be 1.6s, until they reduced its endurance cost) that is not listed in its tooltip at all.

[starlinvf.1358]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:47 AM, Croissant.2671 said:

That's okay. I'm sure everyone arguing for Speed of Sand being an acceptable trait will be fine when standard dodge is going to be changed to roll on the spot and one random minor trait of every elite tree will be replaced by something like "You now roll in your chosen direction when dodging".

No. All heavy classes get block. All med get dodge. All lights get blink. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

12 hours ago, starlinvf.1358 said:

No. All heavy classes get block. All med get dodge. All lights get blink. 

With a few exceptions and some teaks, I'm actually not oppose to that! I always found it sus that my guardian with a focus on defensive magic has to dive away like a little kitten rather than just tanking the blow like a real paladin. 

[Obtena.7952]

On 8/3/2024 at 4:52 PM, Panda.1967 said:

No one is asking the why,  ... “should it be this way?”

You should be, because the whole premise of questioning 1 dodge Mirage is based on there not being a reason for it ... when there certainly is. 

You can't answer "“should it be this way?”" if you can't think of or don't know the reason it's this way in the first place. 

If you don't do that, then all you have is a big crycircle of people convincing themselves it shouldn't be that way because they don't like it. It's completely irrelevant what a bunch of complainers in a thread think should be the fix if they don't think of the reasons it's probably not regarded as a problem by Anet in the first place. The issue isn't that there isn't 'solutions' to fixing something. The issue is if that something should be fixed. 

 

Edited August 6 by Obtena.7952

[Gesbo.6420]

18 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

the biggest roadblock to answering that is the fact that the Vindicators actual dodge ability is completely missing from the wiki… the trait they do have just briefly explains what it does and doesn’t actually include the full details. From both the EoD preview and actual player testing, we know the Vindicators dodge does infact include a movement speed increase, though it is not listed. From what people can tell it is roughly equivalent to what Speed of Sand offers right now. Additionally it has an 0.8s evade (it used to be 1.6s, until they reduced its endurance cost) that is not listed in its tooltip at all.

Good catch, I think that the vindicator dodge is programmed more like the daredevil dodge than the mirage one. 

Mirage dodge is just an effect that makes you invulenrable that would allow the access to ambushes

Vindicator dodge is dodge with 3 similar skills that are selected when with the trait (death drop, imperial impact and saints shiled, just like daredevils impaling lotus, dash and bond) 

But you are right, the information is only provided in the history and not in the tool tip at all which is another inconsistency in the game tool tips. 

I just want to sit down and unify them all under the same system either give me the dodge duration or not not some yes some don't lol 

[Panda.1967]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You should be, because the whole premise of questioning 1 dodge Mirage is based on there not being a reason for it ... when there certainly is. 

You can't answer "“should it be this way?”" if you can't think of or don't know the reason it's this way in the first place. 

If you don't do that, then all you have is a big crycircle of people convincing themselves it shouldn't be that way because they don't like it. It's completely irrelevant what a bunch of complainers in a thread think should be the fix if they don't think of the reasons it's probably not regarded as a problem by Anet in the first place. The issue isn't that there isn't 'solutions' to fixing something. The issue is if that something should be fixed. 

 

Try reading my entire post before you take one line out of context please. We already know the why. So, yes… we can ask “Should it be this way?” Because we DO in fact know why it is that way.

Also… none of this has anything to do with mirage only having 1 dodge… thats a tangental discussion and a separate issue. This topic is about the trait Speed of Sand.

Speed of Sand used to grant superspeed, and that was the whole reason they made it a trait rather than just include the movements speed with Mirage cloak innately. When they removed superspeed from the trait it should have stopped being a trait.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Try reading my entire post before you take one line out of context please. We already know the why.

I read it ... it's pretty evident that people are not aware of why things work as they do because you and them keep pretending like the reason why should be ignored so Anet can implement the 'great' ideas people have. Proof in point ... you are telling me how Speed of Sand works has NOTHING to do with Mirage dodge situation.  Except the fact that Speed of Sand procs directly off of dodge.

But sure, convince yourself it's a SEPARATE issue. Thing B that procs directly from Thing A ... has NOTHING to do with how Thing A works. Keep thinking that. Apparently you believe ignoring the obvious connections between features has nothing to do with why things work a certain way and ignoring that gets you pretty far. 

My favourite parts are where you quote me 6 months later, pulling me from retirement to lose an argument that was already lost the first time someone tried to have it with me. Again, There is a REASON Anet went way out of their way to provide this trait in this espec to mimic the standard dodge mechanic on Mirage. Also, the reason the trait is bad is simply because it degrades the unique Mirage dodge implementation while eating up a trait to do it. And no, the fix to that isn't to make it baseline or any of the other solutions you are talking about, because those solutions do not aim to preserve the unique dodge implemenation on Mirage; they aim to continue the degradation ... just with alternative approaches. It's all part of a bigger argument to get Mirage 2 dodge back. 

But there is a silver lining here because in the last 2-3 years, it's apparent that Anet's whole strategy at this stage in the game is simply to give players what they want. When Mirage gets 2 dodges and all their traits fixed ... THEN feel free to quote me and tell me I'm wrong. 

Edited August 6 by Obtena.7952

[MedievalThings.5417]

Wait till you find out NO 450 range leap skill leaps the same distance, with jaunt travelling the shortest (definitely not 450) distance of them all.  Necro sword is closer to 600 despite being 450 too.

[Waffles.5632]

2 hours ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

Wait till you find out NO 450 range leap skill leaps the same distance, with jaunt travelling the shortest (definitely not 450) distance of them all.  Necro sword is closer to 600 despite being 450 too.

Bro don't even get me started on Necro mobility now omg. 😩

I am glad to see this thread still going. I will keep putting effort until Speed of Sand rightfully gets reworked or rebuffed because to me it is the single the biggest indicator of dev bias today.

There is just no reason this trait should exist in it's current iteration, and it is one of the biggest offenders in holding Mirage back IMO.

Edited August 7 by Waffles.5632

[Panda.1967]

On 8/6/2024 at 3:08 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

I read it ... it's pretty evident that people are not aware of why things work as they do because you and them keep pretending like the reason why should be ignored so Anet can implement the 'great' ideas people have. Proof in point ... you are telling me how Speed of Sand works has NOTHING to do with Mirage dodge situation.  Except the fact that Speed of Sand procs directly off of dodge.

But sure, convince yourself it's a SEPARATE issue. Thing B that procs directly from Thing A ... has NOTHING to do with how Thing A works. Keep thinking that. Apparently you believe ignoring the obvious connections between features has nothing to do with why things work a certain way and ignoring that gets you pretty far. 

My favourite parts are where you quote me 6 months later, pulling me from retirement to lose an argument that was already lost the first time someone tried to have it with me. Again, There is a REASON Anet went way out of their way to provide this trait in this espec to mimic the standard dodge mechanic on Mirage. Also, the reason the trait is bad is simply because it degrades the unique Mirage dodge implementation while eating up a trait to do it. And no, the fix to that isn't to make it baseline or any of the other solutions you are talking about, because those solutions do not aim to preserve the unique dodge implemenation on Mirage; they aim to continue the degradation ... just with alternative approaches. It's all part of a bigger argument to get Mirage 2 dodge back. 

But there is a silver lining here because in the last 2-3 years, it's apparent that Anet's whole strategy at this stage in the game is simply to give players what they want. When Mirage gets 2 dodges and all their traits fixed ... THEN feel free to quote me and tell me I'm wrong. 

Allow me to spell it out in terms you might actually comprehend.

1) Speed of Sand was NOT made to mimic the standard dodge mechanics.

2) Speed of Sand originally granted superspeed.

3) Superspeed was considered a powerful effect, so it was granted by a trait as a balancing factor. It was NOT a mechanical or coding limitation like you seem to think.

4) The main purpose of Speed of Sand is to give the mirage a way to dodge out of mechanics that the mirages unique dodge in place mechanism would be a detriment.

5) Yes, in fact how the trait works is actually completely separate from how mirage’s dodge works. Being an additional effect that is procced by dodge is not the same as being part of the dodge. Changing it from being a trait to being baseline to the dodge can actually be done in 2 simple ways. One way is to directly add the speed bonus to the Mirage Cloak buff. The other is to simply hide the trait but keep it active in the coding for the elite spec. 

They chose to remove superspeed because at some point a dev decided it was too powerful of an effect for Mirage to have, and they deemed the current speed to be adequate. Under ideal circumstances it does indeed perform its intended job still, but we never see ideal circumstances in actual play. The reason the trait is bad is because outside of ideal circumstances it actually doesn’t do its intended job at all, when it still granted Superspeed it actually performed its job flawlessly. This topic likely wouldn’t even exist if the trait had never gotten changed in the first place. In its current form, Speed of Sand isn’t worth being a trait, it effectively provides nothing to the mirage currently.

It’s also hilarious that you actually think you won some debate here, or that there even is a debate to win here. I’m delivering the facts, you are simply attempting to derail the conversation by claiming that we can’t ask the questions we have been asking because we don’t have the answer to another question first, when in fact we do have the answer to that very question. The answer just isn’t the one you made up in your head.

Edited August 8 by Panda.1967

[Obtena.7952]

On 8/8/2024 at 3:18 AM, Panda.1967 said:

Allow me to ... 

Nah, don't bother. I'm not here to argue with you about how or why SoS should change or why it's bad or whatever you want to shout from your soapbox. I'm here because you thought you had something relevant to argue with me about from a post I made 6 months ago. Except you don't because nothing has changed from then to now that affects what I said. 

Also, there simply isn't a reason to have a discourse with anyone that can't even acknowledge basic design concepts like "the Mirage dodge mechanic affects how SOS is designed".  It is NOT independent. In fact, it couldn't be MORE dependent than it is because SOS ONLY works because of how the Mirage dodge mechanic works when that mechanic is used.

Being willfully ignorant of such things doesn't mean they don't exist or that you win some argument with me or those things can be ignored to believe the game should work how you want.

Edited August 12 by Obtena.7952