Relic of Lhyr disabled but wait till they discover…

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

For folks that know me…from experiencing me on this forum, will know that I’m one of these deep game theory-crafters. Typically I analyze game mechanics on a pretty high mathematical and systems modeling level to discover interesting things about the game and as a consequence discover powerful and sometimes game breaking build interactions

I don’t know anything about the Lhyr’s situation, though I’ve heard some interesting theory’s come from its usage. But there’s another interaction that exists that will more than likely lead to nerfs as well. For this reason I won’t share what this interaction is. 

but the message I wanted to leave here is to keep on build crafting and theorycrafting. Don’t be mentally shackled by “the meta-game.” Yes even though the game lacks a lot of imagination and freedom to choose how to play the game, the  essence of theory-crafting does still exist here and there, and those that search are rewarded, with a fun time. 
 

Do legitimate theory-craft by analyzing game mechanics and discovering real mathematical relationships. Don’t believe everything you are told by some guild leader, or some streamer. The proof is in the science; the essence of theorycrafting.

Have fun out there,

[Burnfall.9573]

I had posted this in another thread. Relic of the Ice is broken, it is doing 30k damage. "It's because the projectile can hit 15 times (5 targets x 3 projectiles) but all on the same person."

It must be disabled or better, be completely removed.

By the way, after many years without actions, I stopped believing in words long time ago. 

 

"If your actions do not prove the truth of your words, then your words are nothing more than lies."

Edited February 14 by Burnfall.9573

[DarkFlopy.8197]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

I had posted this in another thread. Relic of the Ice is broken, it is doing 30k damage. "It's because the projectile can hit 15 times (5 targets x 3 projectiles) but all on the same person."

It must be disabled or better, be completely removed.

By the way, after many years without actions, I stopped believing in words long time ago. 

 

"If your actions do not prove the truth of your words, then your words are nothing more than lies."

It also uses PVE modifiers so the damage is not even correct regardless how many projectiles come out

[Burnfall.9573]

3 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

It also uses PVE modifiers so the damage is not even correct regardless how many projectiles come out

 

What I do know is, modifier + key bindings with other tools is plausible. Still, Anet need to look into it

Edited February 14 by Burnfall.9573

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

11 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

I had posted this in another thread. Relic of the Ice is broken, it is doing 30k damage. "It's because the projectile can hit 15 times (5 targets x 3 projectiles) but all on the same person."

It must be disabled or better, be completely removed.

By the way, after many years without actions, I stopped believing in words long time ago. 

 

"If your actions do not prove the truth of your words, then your words are nothing more than lies."

I went to go test this, and i couldn't reproduce what you described here. It shoots 3 icicles at a target. Do you think you can provide a video of this happening?

and i was able to reproduce this behavior. You have to stand inside the hitbox of a target, while there are other enemies around. Nice find.

I think the effect (that it can hit multiple people, or a single person depending on how you play) is a good thing. I wouldn't say this needs to be disabled at all, but expanded upon even. So long as the thing doesn't do 30k damage, but some normal damage it would be fine.

Edited February 14 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I went to go test this, and i couldn't reproduce what you described here. It shoots 3 icicles at a target. Do you think you can provide a video of this happening?

and i was able to reproduce this behavior. You have to stand inside the hitbox of a target, while there are other enemies around. Nice find.

I think the effect (that it can hit multiple people, or a single person depending on how you play) is a good thing. I wouldn't say this needs to be disabled at all, but expanded upon even. So long as the thing doesn't do 30k damage, but some normal damage it would be fine.

Tested as well after Burn linked the video in the WvW forum. It is hitting one target more than three times at times. Some times not at all. Tested on target dummies was the odd one as I keep seeing it hit the target dummy 7 times, which made no sense unless it was rolling up numbers under a single event entry. Would say in the least that it is bugged in some ways.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Tested as well after Burn linked the video in the WvW forum. It is hitting one target more than three times at times. Some times not at all. Tested on target dummies was the odd one as I keep seeing it hit the target dummy 7 times, which made no sense unless it was rolling up numbers under a single event entry. Would say in the least that it is bugged in some ways.

Yea, the number of bolts I expierence was also inconsistent in the same way. Sometimes hitting for 9 times, sometimes 12…when it’s supposed to hit 15 question mark. Was just a 10 minute test on my end with golems so I think more time is needed to figure exactly what is happening with it…whether it just fails to land them all or it’s lumping damage packets together or whatever it’s deal is

but anyway you mentioned there is a video. Would you or @Burnfall.9573 oblige me? Would like to see it in action.

Edited February 14 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Burnfall.9573]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Yea, the number of bolts I expierence was also inconsistent in the same way. Sometimes hitting for 9 times, sometimes 12…when it’s supposed to hit 15 question mark. Was just a 10 minute test on my end with golems so I think more time is needed to figure exactly what is happening with it…whether it just fails to land them all or it’s lumping damage packets together or whatever it’s deal is

but anyway you mentioned there is a video. Would you or @Burnfall.9573 oblige me? Would like to see it in action.

 

most definitely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ltzMWz6i4

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

most definitely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ltzMWz6i4

 

I see, thanks. Ya, my view is that I like the interaction here as it rewards active player decision making. I don’t think nerfing the damage, which is a totally abit high in this scenario is the answer to how to address it, cause it’s the perfect example of; “if you nerf it, then using it as intended is worthless.” As when those ice spikes hit their 5 targets like normal, they do noodle damage, if it gets nerfed you get me?
 

tradeoffs (nonlinear dynamic tradeoffs, not static ones) are the only way to ground abilities that are strong like this in some instances, to balance reality, which skills in guild wars don’t have. So I see the imbalance in this skill interaction as a direct consequence of not having such a framework. 

Edited February 15 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Burnfall.9573]

On 2/13/2024 at 11:45 AM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

For folks that know me…from experiencing me on this forum, will know that I’m one of these deep game theory-crafters. Typically I analyze game mechanics on a pretty high mathematical and systems modeling level to discover interesting things about the game and as a consequence discover powerful and sometimes game breaking build interactions

I don’t know anything about the Lhyr’s situation, though I’ve heard some interesting theory’s come from its usage. But there’s another interaction that exists that will more than likely lead to nerfs as well. For this reason I won’t share what this interaction is. 

but the message I wanted to leave here is to keep on build crafting and theorycrafting. Don’t be mentally shackled by “the meta-game.” Yes even though the game lacks a lot of imagination and freedom to choose how to play the game, the  essence of theory-crafting does still exist here and there, and those that search are rewarded, with a fun time. 
 

Do legitimate theory-craft by analyzing game mechanics and discovering real mathematical relationships. Don’t believe everything you are told by some guild leader, or some streamer. The proof is in the science; the essence of theorycrafting.

Have fun out there,

Take a look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR5gUQgmZ80

While Anet continues to allow Relic of the Ice to go rampant

Isn't it Hypocritical to disable "Immortal" relics, traits while Stealth Mechanic is the closest thing to Immortality?

Cause of exploits by those relics gets Anet immediate attention yet Stealth Mechanic remains the most exploited mechanic in the game and gets a free pass for 12 years? 

The Hypocrisy to "balance' this game or do anything with it, never fails to surpise me

Edited February 18 by Burnfall.9573

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

4 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Take a look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR5gUQgmZ80

While Anet continues to allow Relic of the Ice to go rampant

Isn't it Hypocritical to disable "Immortal" relics, traits while Stealth Mechanic is the closest thing to Immortality?

Cause of exploits by those relics gets Anet immediate attention yet Stealth Mechanic remains the most exploited mechanic in the game and gets a free pass for 12 years? 

The Hypocrisy to "balance' this game or do anything with it, never fails to surpise me

I don’t really share this sentiment. Not with stealth at least, cause stealth has counter play and is not an exploit. Invulnerability is also a game mechanic but it has no counter-play.

but aside from those things which I think are nitpicks on specific mechanisms in the game, the philosophy at the games core is about options and exploring those options for users to find combinations that benefit them and serve their interests to defeat other players using their combinations that they explored. Which is why it’s important for options to exist, offering strategies and why these options need to be designed to also offer counter strategies so that no single strategy dominates the game state.

Idealized balance is just a unicorn dream that doesn’t exist and is not attainable. There only strategies and counter strategies…the more the merrier and that is what eventually leads to balance. 

so with respect to stealth, if you find it as very oppressive then the answer is to present options to the player to counter stealth mechanics. Whether such options can exist depends on the mechanic and how it works. Invisibility fits pretty well into that framework but invulnerability does not. Like stated earlier there is no “counterstrategy” to invincibility.

btw just a heads up I didn’t confuse emoji your post…There’s a lot of folks here that just spam the emoji on anything they don’t like. Just ignore it if you can. Your post was not bad at all. I just disagree with it. Cheers man.

Edited February 18 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Nimon.7840]

On 2/18/2024 at 7:49 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I don’t really share this sentiment. Not with stealth at least, cause stealth has counter play and is not an exploit. Invulnerability is also a game mechanic but it has no counter-play.

but aside from those things which I think are nitpicks on specific mechanisms in the game, the philosophy at the games core is about options and exploring those options for users to find combinations that benefit them and serve their interests to defeat other players using their combinations that they explored. Which is why it’s important for options to exist, offering strategies and why these options need to be designed to also offer counter strategies so that no single strategy dominates the game state.

Idealized balance is just a unicorn dream that doesn’t exist and is not attainable. There only strategies and counter strategies…the more the merrier and that is what eventually leads to balance. 

so with respect to stealth, if you find it as very oppressive then the answer is to present options to the player to counter stealth mechanics. Whether such options can exist depends on the mechanic and how it works. Invisibility fits pretty well into that framework but invulnerability does not. Like stated earlier there is no “counterstrategy” to invincibility.

btw just a heads up I didn’t confuse emoji your post…There’s a lot of folks here that just spam the emoji on anything they don’t like. Just ignore it if you can. Your post was not bad at all. I just disagree with it. Cheers man.

Does stealth really have counterplay?

Yes there is a mechanic that counters stealth, but it's not very accessible. Most classes have like one skill, that actually reveals enemies. And for example on Necro that's locked behind a core shroud skills.

Don't get me wrong, you can definitely play around an stealthed enemy. For example putting down Necro staff marks to limit a stealthed enemies movement.

But that's no real counterplay in my opinion. That being said, I wouldn't remove stealth. Just nerf stealth in a sense, that you can't just spam stealth skills anymore to be invisible for a very long time.

I don't know what a reasonable max duration would be. Maybe around the 6-10 second mark. Or give more specs a skill that reveals.

 

[phokus.8934]

I'd make one small change to stealth...

Stealth is removed when your attacks are blocked.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Does stealth really have counterplay?

 

 

Like you said, reveal is a hard counter strategy to stealth. soft counter strategies include placing AOE or damage around you, standing in a place that puts the enemy in your line of fire, or standing in smoke fields so that when they combo they hit you, revealing themselves. invulnerability by contrast 0 counterplay strategies and this makes them categorically different.
 

it’s like comparing from the Boys; Translucent to Homelander. There’s just no comparison…of course Homelander has X-ray vision (which counters translucent) but if he couldnt see translucent Homelander simply wins by not being killable. Homelander could just laser 360 and eventually kill him too. And they also added diamond skin to translucent cause being just invisible wasn’t OP enough lol…so I think the show kinda just makes obvious how OP being unkillable is…

Ahem but back on topic, should reveal and other counters to stealth exist and be introduced. to the game? Yes of course. There should be entire build frameworks and towers of theorycrafting that specialize in countering stealth in my opinion. As a result, stealth should be rewarding so that builds that counter stealth fulfill a useful, meaningful role and niche. Anet kinda drops the ball on game design so all we ever got was reveal…so ya…sad stuff.

Edited February 20 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[draxynnic.3719]

The probable reason for the emoji spam is that Burnfall has been soapboxing for the total removal of stealth and other ideas that go against the design principles of the game for months if not years - long enough that people might want to express disapproval without spending time writing out for the 651th time why they disagree.

I do think, though, that there is a genuine issue with countering stealth. While Revealed can be applied by skills, generally speaking the skills are otherwise so bad, and utility slots are in such high demand, that taking them is a significant detriment to fighting anything else. While some tradeoff is to be expected, in many cases it seems to be a bit too extreme.

It also doesn't help that a lot of them need a target, so they won't help you if the target is already stealthed... and they won't even help you much if you land it while they're visible, since if they have any defences outside of stealth they can fall back on those and then stealth once the revealed expires.

To make matters worse, some of the professions that need a stealth counter the most (mesmers needing a target to summon illusions and build up profession resource are traditionally hard-countered by stealth thieves, for instance, although virtuoso can upset that apple cart a bit) don't have one.

I do wonder if skills where it would theoretically be apparant if they hit something should just apply Revealed by default. Might be a bit too strong of a nerf, but hey, if there's more counterplay they might be able to undo some of the nerfs that have already happened.

[Leo G.4501]

Watch this post have nothing to do with Lyhrs relic but instead it's about Nourys relic.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The probable reason for the emoji spam is that Burnfall has been soapboxing for the total removal of stealth and other ideas that go against the design principles of the game for months if not years - long enough that people might want to express disapproval without spending time writing out for the 651th time why they disagree.

I do think, though, that there is a genuine issue with countering stealth. While Revealed can be applied by skills, generally speaking the skills are otherwise so bad, and utility slots are in such high demand, that taking them is a significant detriment to fighting anything else. While some tradeoff is to be expected, in many cases it seems to be a bit too extreme.

It also doesn't help that a lot of them need a target, so they won't help you if the target is already stealthed... and they won't even help you much if you land it while they're visible, since if they have any defences outside of stealth they can fall back on those and then stealth once the revealed expires.

To make matters worse, some of the professions that need a stealth counter the most (mesmers needing a target to summon illusions and build up profession resource are traditionally hard-countered by stealth thieves, for instance, although virtuoso can upset that apple cart a bit) don't have one.

I do wonder if skills where it would theoretically be apparant if they hit something should just apply Revealed by default. Might be a bit too strong of a nerf, but hey, if there's more counterplay they might be able to undo some of the nerfs that have already happened.

The reason Burnfall is downvoted is because it's off topic. 

That like me going into a Ele QQ thread and start talking about how bad Warrior is. 

JusticeRetroHunter gets downvoted because it's this kid behavior Ala 

"I know stuff you don't know 😋" 

And it's actually the most obvious stuff imaginable. 

[Stalima.5490]

On 2/13/2024 at 4:45 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

For folks that know me…from experiencing me on this forum, will know that I’m one of these deep game theory-crafters. Typically I analyze game mechanics on a pretty high mathematical and systems modeling level to discover interesting things about the game and as a consequence discover powerful and sometimes game breaking build interactions

I don’t know anything about the Lhyr’s situation, though I’ve heard some interesting theory’s come from its usage. But there’s another interaction that exists that will more than likely lead to nerfs as well. For this reason I won’t share what this interaction is. 

but the message I wanted to leave here is to keep on build crafting and theorycrafting. Don’t be mentally shackled by “the meta-game.” Yes even though the game lacks a lot of imagination and freedom to choose how to play the game, the  essence of theory-crafting does still exist here and there, and those that search are rewarded, with a fun time. 
 

Do legitimate theory-craft by analyzing game mechanics and discovering real mathematical relationships. Don’t believe everything you are told by some guild leader, or some streamer. The proof is in the science; the essence of theorycrafting.

Have fun out there,

It may be disabled because I sent a report of it literally not working on my scrapper at all.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

13 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

"I know stuff you don't know 😋" 

this is not even wrong. I literally do know stuff you wouldn’t know because that’s what a theory-crafter usually does…finding hidden relationships and digging up knowledge about the game, that is otherwise not known. It’s also a theory-crafters role to tell people about those relationships and spread that knowledge.

I would share some of the stuff I know if only that knowledge wouldn’t break the game…but alas some of the stuff I’ve found would break the game in unpleasant ways, and because I’m tired of Anet just nerfing everything into uselessness they would have to pay and consult me if they wanted to know so that they could fix the stuff in ways that don’t ruin the game in a different way.

the alternative is to just let people know that theorycrafting is part of the playing of this game. To explore the build options. Me saying you missed something without saying much else is an invitation for you to find it, like a treasure hunt… X marks the spot.

So the statement that you take offense to a theroycrafter doing their job is more of a statement about how you feel towards theorycrafting, of which this post is intended for you.

Edited February 26 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[XenesisII.1540]

People who don't want to report bugs or exploits, are most likely taking advantage of said bug or exploit, instead of revealing it to get fixed.

Just sayin.

☕

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

People who don't want to report bugs or exploits, are most likely taking advantage of said bug or exploit, instead of revealing it to get fixed.

Just sayin.

☕

The builds I use from the theories that I make are not bugs or exploits, Just strong interactions nobody bothered to look into…some of which have existed in the game since launch. The only reason someone might look into them has to deal with the theory’s behind why they might be useful and in what way. Those theories are usually based on fundamental rule sets of the game and can’t just be “fixed.” As I say anet has to come in, pay and consult me if they want to understand how to design things without breaking everything themselves.
 

if I were to use an analogy, you can’t just “fix” E=mc^2. Some interactions in the game are proverbial nukes waiting to go off…but you can’t fix it with a nerf here or are removing a mechanic there without ultimately destroying the game from the inside out and deleting swaths of builds. In both cases it’s a moral decision of mine to not share some interactions with the public.
 

But I’ve shared some  stuff before...like talking about exactly how skills are able to effect more than their listed target caps, up to 40 people at times, which should be common knowledge, but you'll be surprised how many people don't understand how those effects work or why. Anet's actions of normalizing target caps also create other problems (like making balled up groups of players harder to kill) Look at the kind of responses I get on both of these threads...do you think talking about this publicly serves any purpose to me, when mostly what happens is people just hate and argue with it? Or that Anet doesn't know how to deal with fundamental problems in their game?

Cool sidestory: i was kicked out of a raid guild once for explaining the target cap thing... it boiled down into "because snowcrows meta said so that's why" fun times for me i guess right? explaining anything.

Edited February 27 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684