What would you like to change about WVW to stimulate your participation?

[Liu.4751]

Right like think simple or something they can redo.

skirmish times: 120 minutes to hold what you have in when outnumbered 5-1, not good . 2 hours is too long to achieve war score, make it 20 minutes. Means if a large group wants take everything at least there’s only 20 minutes to do it meaning  the remaining players can recap and the score will stay even! Thus eliminating the Zerg trains taking a whole map well within an hour, if they were still equal or loosing in war score then they’d look dumb.

roaming/gankers: not counting a small group but the solo especially thieves, in WvsW its PvE and ability for classes to go invisible and range high damage and run the map is game killer for many “duels”. Thieves especially become easy and instead of stealth being like Aegis for guardians it’s easy win because other players need use most their skills to counter the stealth in OPEN space. And allows this to mostly make people quit or get a thief and continue negative gameplay.

more maps: you churn out PvE maps well very impressive just not end game or stimulating. Having a desert and alpine map but no jungle after 10 years isn’t good, nor enticing.

outnumbered buffs: please make them actually useful, more exp? For maybe backgaping a large group with a few, make them heroes with the buff, give them 2x the stats when within a tower etc people will be all over it bombing the enemy with loads of damage. Currently it’s just PvE enabled for people who only focus is I can’t fight 5 people but can I get more loot. It’s a game mode and the outnumbered buff is only centred towards loot

 

there’s loads very simple ways you either encourage active WvW instead your removed sever identity by creating links for many years all same issues now alliances what will make what no Worlds left but “alliances” your trying fix the game mode  by removing itself from its very name world vs world. 
 

Andy clearly doesn’t care and don’t want to take obvious steps it seems they content with the semi stable player base and don’t want rock the boat, Im afraid you have something decent but just want to cater for the PvE player who spends cash and moves around games so you become just another business even if own gamemodes are ruined

 

.

 

[Mabi black.1824]

3 hours ago, Liu.4751 said:

Right like think simple or something they can redo.

skirmish times: 120 minutes to hold what you have in when outnumbered 5-1, not good . 2 hours is too long to achieve war score, make it 20 minutes. Means if a large group wants take everything at least there’s only 20 minutes to do it meaning  the remaining players can recap and the score will stay even! Thus eliminating the Zerg trains taking a whole map well within an hour, if they were still equal or loosing in war score then they’d look dumb.

roaming/gankers: not counting a small group but the solo especially thieves, in WvsW its PvE and ability for classes to go invisible and range high damage and run the map is game killer for many “duels”. Thieves especially become easy and instead of stealth being like Aegis for guardians it’s easy win because other players need use most their skills to counter the stealth in OPEN space. And allows this to mostly make people quit or get a thief and continue negative gameplay.

more maps: you churn out PvE maps well very impressive just not end game or stimulating. Having a desert and alpine map but no jungle after 10 years isn’t good, nor enticing.

outnumbered buffs: please make them actually useful, more exp? For maybe backgaping a large group with a few, make them heroes with the buff, give them 2x the stats when within a tower etc people will be all over it bombing the enemy with loads of damage. Currently it’s just PvE enabled for people who only focus is I can’t fight 5 people but can I get more loot. It’s a game mode and the outnumbered buff is only centred towards loot

 

there’s loads very simple ways you either encourage active WvW instead your removed sever identity by creating links for many years all same issues now alliances what will make what no Worlds left but “alliances” your trying fix the game mode  by removing itself from its very name world vs world. 
 

Andy clearly doesn’t care and don’t want to take obvious steps it seems they content with the semi stable player base and don’t want rock the boat, Im afraid you have something decent but just want to cater for the PvE player who spends cash and moves around games so you become just another business even if own gamemodes are ruined

 

.

 

I would say that you were quite explicit and clear in the critical part, I miss your constructive part.

Which pawn you want to move, change, or modify to pique your interest in WVW ?

[Mabi black.1824]

17 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

My biggest problem with WvW is that it has always felt meaningless. Capture, lose, capture, lose, ... Hardly anything stays conquered during the night and every week you lose it all again anyway. And it seems that it's more about round the clock coverage than any skill or organization. You can tell if a commander knows their stuff but even they can't really win against twice the numbers

It's not that everything is useless. You just have to look at WVW in a ''proper' way in reference to how they built its format. Everything you've described, affects all servers equally. We're talking about teams of 2000+ players per side, in a 24/7 format. All players, including you and me, can only 'join'' in this format. Participating and putting your own content/contribution makes all the difference.

If your concept is that you or a commander or a single guild can have complete 'control' of a game with a format like this or everything becomes pointless, I'm sorry but as things stand, there's no way to achieve that.

However, the skills, competences, and strategies of the most varied players ''make'' the difference on the final outcome of the matches. Of course, numbers matter a lot. In fact, this section of the forum is full of suggestions to make our games more and more credible from a competitive point of view.( I myself suggested adding a mathematical coefficient hours played/victory points to define with mathematical precision which server really won the weekly game. )

Now I'm going for interpretation because your thinking isn't clear to me. If your suggestion is to modify this format to get smaller teams with different timings, so that a single player can get a better feel of ''control'' of the match, feel free to suggest it here. This post is designed to help you understand what can motivate your participation in WVW.

Edited February 28 by Mabi black.1824

[Areann.1304]

Ok I'll try again. When I've won a pvp game or killed Tequatl or done T4 fractals, I feel like I have achieved something. That makes me feel good and motivates me to do it again the next day. In WvW I hardly ever feel like achieved anything so i'm not motivated to do it. So what is that?

's

• Agency: I know what to do and where to go in the other game modes. In WvW i just join the commander zerg and even while following voice chat commands I don't feel like my contribution really matters. 
• Accomplishment: We conquered a keep. So what? Luck, timing and raw numbers will determine how long we hold it more then skill or commitment. While when Tequatl is dead, I know I won't be facing it again this day. Or when the match is over, it is over, I have actually won.
• Winning the match up: I never knew why I should care. Bragging rights? Tougher opponents? What does that get me? Should I feel proud when anybody who was up in the middle of the night to claim unopposed will have contributed more points then fighting during prime time ever could? They'll have gained more rewards to.
• Contribution: It's probably a bit silly but I hate it that I can only get bronze medals at keeps and towers because I'm in minstrel gear.

But, you want suggestions. I think I would enjoy it a lot if every hour there was a reward for the players of the winning team  who have contributed a minimum amount of activity. How exactly doesn't matter. Total points gained by team, most enemy kills, most possesions at the hour mark, ... If I dedicate an hour to WvW, I want that hour to have some meaning, some commemoration. And if that reward can be earned hourly, or daily, ...doesn't really matter. And with that reward, maybe also an overview with how many 'contribution' I as an an individual player did. I play to feel good and to feel good I need to matter.

[Chips.7968]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:35 PM, Mabi black.1824 said:

The question is: what would you like to change/update to stimulate your interest and participation in this game mode? 

New dev / balance team.

Actual decent quality testing (far too many pathetically obvious bugs creep in). 

Better management.

 

Say it how you see it - bad management. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

The game mode is very much one where each player will see it differently. I get your point, it's never ending to an extent, so players break it down in their own minds in whatever time frames make sense. To me I look to end of week results on one level and per fight on another. Examples below:

20 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

 

• Agency: I know what to do and where to go in the other game modes. In WvW i just join the commander zerg and even while following voice chat commands I don't feel like my contribution really matters. 

I run a hidden tag for my havoc when I am not out roaming. I will zerg surf at times but I don't join squads unless I plan on sticking with a tag which isn't often since as a havoc I also know my role is to break off and cause issues to the side fighting my tags. To do this you need to understand the what and why your tags are doing so you can work off of their motions and intercept the other side and mess up their plans based on what you know your side is going to do. If you feel you are not helping yourside while playing large scale, you might want to try smaller scale and see if that is more fulfilling. 

20 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

• Accomplishment: We conquered a keep. So what? Luck, timing and raw numbers will determine how long we hold it more then skill or commitment. While when Tequatl is dead, I know I won't be facing it again this day. Or when the match is over, it is over, I have actually won.

Could be read a number of ways. Yes groups that just take but don't come back to defend what is taken are an issue and can lead people to not caring about holding. Different people will see this in different ways. If you are getting the feeling it mattered, jump out of the group and work on building that keep up. Rank it up and siege it up and try the role of scout to give warnings and callout to the other side coming back to try and retake it. Successful defensives can both give that feel of accomplishment and it has some rewards behind in the defense events. 

20 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

• Winning the match up: I never knew why I should care. Bragging rights? Tougher opponents? What does that get me? Should I feel proud when anybody who was up in the middle of the night to claim unopposed will have contributed more points then fighting during prime time ever could? They'll have gained more rewards to.

Bragging rights, for some. Tougher opponents, for other others. Reasons to win is something lurking back there behind the WR project. Right now your answer is nothing. You are either going to look to win in the current environment knowing there was no reason to do. So its matter to each own player. I like to win, knowing it means nothing except maybe moving up in ranks. And no, players playing outside of their normal play time to nightcap knowing the other side doesn't have players on is not something to look up in my opinion and just creates strife for your side if it drives a group up higher than they have players that can cover that move up.

20 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

• Contribution: It's probably a bit silly but I hate it that I can only get bronze medals at keeps and towers because I'm in minstrel gear.

That's not necessary silly it means you have set your own targets and have goals to reach. I admit I don't notice the event rewards much since I am in motion to get to the next event and usually have more targets than I know what to head toward next. Again when you havoc or roam you need to read the map for your side and what where they are going, look for the other sides zerg, try and notice where your havocs might be, where theirs might be at and then watch for roamer activity that you might lend a hand to or be prepared to try and counter. It comes down to roles and goals when you move away from larger scale play.

20 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

But, you want suggestions. I think I would enjoy it a lot if every hour there was a reward for the players of the winning team  who have contributed a minimum amount of activity. How exactly doesn't matter. Total points gained by team, most enemy kills, most possesions at the hour mark, ... If I dedicate an hour to WvW, I want that hour to have some meaning, some commemoration. And if that reward can be earned hourly, or daily, ...doesn't really matter. And with that reward, maybe also an overview with how many 'contribution' I as an an individual player did. I play to feel good and to feel good I need to matter.

Did a post recently about an end of week idea to take activity and create a loot kitty to divide up among players based on active play, I think its above in this one. I agree players like goals and they like to get a feel they had impacts. The issue I had with it is that it does need to account for the differing scales of play personally. Will have to think about something in terms of a skirmish period to account for activity in a given skirmish. Let me think about that one. Till then, good hunting!

[Areann.1304]

It's like you showed me a whole new world. Or at least a glimpse of it. I'll admit this is the first time I've even heard of 'havoc'. I first thought it was a build. Are those the ones that try to snatch the tail of the zerg? To delay it? My rank is 474 in wvw and it still feels like pure chaos for me. And one side seems to always have the disadvantage and they get pounded until the tides change or something. It's also very strange to me that the behaviors the game systems reward are not those that win matches. It feels like to really get into the mindset of WvW I have to stop thinking about pursuing the rewards the game dangles in front of me.

Edited March 1 by Areann.1304

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

It's like you showed me a whole new world. Or at least a glimpse of it. I'll admit this is the first time I've even heard of 'havoc'. I first thought it was a build. Are those the ones that try to snatch the tail of the zerg? To delay it? My rank is 474 in wvw and it still feels like pure chaos for me. And one side seems to always have the disadvantage and they get pounded until the tides change or something. It's also very strange to me that the behaviors the game systems reward are not those that win matches. It feels like to really get into the mindset of WvW I have to stop thinking about pursuing the rewards the game dangles in front of me.

A Roamer is a solo player that is trying to counter act the other side alone. Roamers are often filling a Havoc role but have the highest risk since odds are they will be outnumbered in any given fight let alone when looking to solo towers and keeps. 

A Havoc is a group of 2-16 that are working together to do the same. A Havoc's role is to cover what every else the main force is not doing. That means scouting, escorting, defending, back capping, sniping, repairing, intercepting, defensive sieging, decoy sieging, pre-sieging objectives, weakening objectives, decoying larger groups, taunting and chasing larger groups, ruin capping, off-havocing and at times helping one enemy against another. The last is two are the most rewarding.

Helping an enemy is when your side has no one in a fight but one enemy is going against another's objective. In this case you decide which outcome would help your side the most pending the outcome of the fight and meddle with the side you want to see lose for a number of reasons. This comes in a number of forms, denying supply, killing reinforcements, contesting easy access waypoints, mock attacking reinforcement points.

Denying supply to either defenders and/or attackers at the same time can prolong two enemies fighting which helps your side in either case and weakens both of the others objectives. This is especially helpful if you are Havocing on one map while trying to help a completely different map. You want to lock the other two down on this map so they might have less numbers in another fight against your side.

With reinforcements you want to deny them return paths. This could be a matter of eliminating zones they are using to glide through or impacting the ground they are riding back thru. It's a matter of determining which route reinforcements are coming from and then delaying them by either intercepting them and killing them, force them to reroute or distract them into chasing your group versus return to the fight that they should be paying attention to. The further back you can push them to using a longer route to return to their main fight the better.

Off-havocing is mostly done when attacking. You ID which part of the map your main force is going for and then you make as much noise as possible away from that spot in order to draw eyes away from your larger force. Example if your main force is hitting Hills, you hit Bay trying to draw a response there. In the best case, both are capped at the same time. Havocs can also work off of each other, which was fun to see during some of the WR betas. A group of Havocs hit a map all the same time. 4 groups break apart and hit 4 targets at the same time and then reform when the other side brings their main group to bear. Mind you this is more rare these days but was more of a thing in the past. Same with main tags working with their Havocs and roamers together, but it was once a thing more often, and might be again under the WR project.

Mind you when you Havoc you get run over a lot, but every time you block an enemy action and it impacts their plans it feels worth it, even if its a matter of holding a ring so that your main force can get there in time while you run back from spawn after getting trampled. 

Anyway enough rambling, it's reset night. Good hunting and may your bags be full at reset!

 

[Mabi black.1824]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:24 AM, Areann.1304 said:

It's also very strange to me that the behaviors the game systems reward are not those that win matches. It feels like to really get into the mindset of WvW I have to stop thinking about pursuing the rewards the game dangles in front of me.

Exactly that, WVW can be limited to your daily rewards, but if you forget those for a moment and take a broader perspective you will see that WVW is like a game of chess. on a huge chessboard. and there are 3 players. At least that's what I think. Of course, you have to be aware that it doesn't all revolve around you, that your experience and your contribution translates into ''participation'' and not 'total control''. 

These are features of WVW, they are not problems to be solved, teams of 2000 players like 24/7, I guess it's just a matter of awareness. And even if you don't have 'complete control'' even though the numbers in WVW are very large, the competitive aspect is key and still has a lot of room for improvement. also in a seasonal format. 

[Chanz.3907]

Played today and had a group of about 25 wipe out a group of 45 like they we were not even there. Tried boon striping them but had no affect on them. Tried chilling and blinding but had no affect. Tried converting their boons into conditions but had no affect. I am not sure where Anet is going with this but I know it's very frustrating fighting a group knowing your doing nothing to them except giving them bags!

Edited March 3 by Chanz.3907

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

make resistance like stability. Stackable, soft CC removes a stack. (Immobization/blind/chill/cripple/ect)

 

[SweetPotato.7456]

fix the lag issue. 

[Areann.1304]

Ok so the rewards don't actually suck when you get a bit into it and it all starts to ramp up

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Areann.1304 said:

Ok so the rewards don't actually suck when you get a bit into it and it all starts to ramp up

Yes, no, maybe. Mind sharing more info?

Edited March 8 by TheGrimm.5624
Edit: Glad you are finding it more of interest. Could it use some more love, yes.

[sduFire.8420]

On 3/2/2024 at 7:42 PM, Chanz.3907 said:

Played today and had a group of about 25 wipe out a group of 45 like they we were not even there. Tried boon striping them but had no affect on them. Tried chilling and blinding but had no affect. Tried converting their boons into conditions but had no affect. I am not sure where Anet is going with this but I know it's very frustrating fighting a group knowing your doing nothing to them except giving them bags!

Yes, the current boon-ball is just too strong (you really have to coordinate well your group boon-strip now or else it won't even make a dent on them). To fight a boon-ball? You need a larger boon-ball 🙂 However, I can see the Match balance update may help on this (I actually like how they do it.. instead of trying to introduce back and mandate more boon-strip as meta)

[ArchonWing.9480]

It's a garbage meta but 45 being unable to dent 25 is a skill issue.  Not necessarily on your part, but very possible 44 other people just don't know how to fight.

Note I didn't mean beat, because it's entirely possible in a straight up sustain war the boon ball will probably win, but 45 should at least be able to pin them down. Please don't speak of honor and kitten. Just build that siege.

Nobody says you gotta fight them head on. Spread out so they can only get one or two of you per pass, and build shield gens to give your own people stab. Also concentrated siege fire from catapults, ballistas and trebs. No arrow carts; they only tickle the enemy and tell people to stop building them. Most mediocre fly by night guilds do not actually have amazing damage, especially at range, so feel free to put on a few  tankier pieces with stats people typically cry about (lol cele, etc)

I also feel most people need to modify their builds when they don't have their own boon ball. Copying metabattle builds does not work because they are all designed for comp so trying to run that in disorganized groups is not going to be fun. And even if you should run a roaming build there's always adjustments like more stunbreaks and whatever can not be reflected tends to help.

Note: Yes, that being said, condi generally does not work outside of burn which does damage quickly

Also when it comes to boon corrupts/ccs/immobolizes please don't fire them into the front which has all the cleanses and stab. You generally have to get the back when they turn, and sadly this usually involves them downing/killing some of you.  But this is why I say spread out a bit more so they can't catch as many of you.

You do need to undestand how a boonball typically moves, and it's actually a lot more telegraphed than you think.  I recommend just spending a few days chasing a zerg on your own or with a few people and just try to constantly pick the tail or people running to them. Of course you will die many times and even get siege thrown on you, but you also will learn how zergs reinforce themselves and what paths they typically take.

In all fairness, some dev seems to love to nerf and destroy any of these countermeasures that Iisted because they absolutely love dumbed down gameplay.

  Most commanders aren't going to be able to hold anyone's hand here and they often pursue straighforward tactics that will fail. It is what it is. Also sometimes you really have 44 useless servermates. But you should still adjust your tactics as needed and just find people that know how to play.

Also I am not talking about 50+ map queue boon balls. At this point the game is probably even too laggy to even bother with, so go out there and play something better.

Edited March 8 by ArchonWing.9480