Ideas to make Renegade feel better post patch

[owencr.5469]

After playing around with the new renegade changes I feel like there are some issues. I would like to list some ideas for changes that could improve on the new designs feel and would help fix issues I noticed.
Issues:

• Far too energy hungry.
• Window for using empowered renegade skill feels small
• Poor indicator of having an empowered option

Potential changes:

• Add some kind of energy refund or energy cost reduction for your empowered skill
• Increase window to use empowered skill to ~8-10s
• Add a buff or an indicator around energy to show empowered, (similar to malice on deadeye but singular?)

sorry if anything is worded weird or poorly explained, this is my first post on the forums but I love rev and I feel like this patch was a step in a good direction but it could use a little more to make it a great option in wvw and pve scenarios.

 

[Tobias.4975]

28 minutes ago, owencr.5469 said:

After playing around with the new renegade changes I feel like there are some issues. I would like to list some ideas for changes that could improve on the new designs feel and would help fix issues I noticed.
Issues:

• Far too energy hungry.
• Window for using empowered renegade skill feels small
• Poor indicator of having an empowered option

Potential changes:

• Add some kind of energy refund or energy cost reduction for your empowered skill
• Increase window to use empowered skill to ~8-10s
• Add a buff or an indicator around energy to show empowered, (similar to malice on deadeye but singular?)

sorry if anything is worded weird or poorly explained, this is my first post on the forums but I love rev and I feel like this patch was a step in a good direction but it could use a little more to make it a great option in wvw and pve scenarios.

 

Sorry, but i think it is very unlikely that anyone from anet is reading this, especially after the adjustments of the scepter.

 

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I don't know, it honestly looks busted the way it is already.

[Tobias.4975]

The mechanic of the elite looks nice, but i see no use, due the excessive energycost of the other skills (including the f-skills)

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

20 minutes ago, Tobias.4975 said:

The mechanic of the elite looks nice, but i see no use, due the excessive energycost of the other skills (including the f-skills)

The problem I see, is they clearly demarcated the difference between pure support and pure DPS skills... but like always, except for vindicator, revenants cannot set up their utility skills to make use of this set up so you always have all on the bar. So it's a really weird set up in the end. Same problem with engie bow, where it looks like it was designed for weapon swapping to maximize, but engies can't weapon swap.

[Angesombre.4630]

I'm less of a fan of the new skills than before, the stun doesn't last as long, the ball launcher throws more than 3 balls and I have the impression that it does less damage. Well, I hadn't tested it properly: it attacks several targets instead of just 1. But the problems are still there, too expensive to see if the problem with the ground has been partly resolved.

Edited March 19 by Angesombre.4630

[Me Kill You.9035]

I really don't like how the stun break works on Darkrazor now,  it only breaks stun if it is empowered which is a very small window, so you need to predict within a few seconds of when you think you're going to need it and feels so bad to me

[Susi Musi.2964]

6 minutes ago, Me Kill You.9035 said:

I really don't like how the stun break works on Darkrazor now,  it only breaks stun if it is empowered which is a very small window, so you need to predict within a few seconds of when you think you're going to need it and feels so bad to me

First i thought the same that it only break stun if it empowered, but only thentooltip that's in a dumb format. The empowered version only applies resistance in addition of the base effect. The segmentation is bad for the tooltip. Also the "flip" effect for the empowered skills is slow, you cant chain two utility skills. A bit bothersome to use to wait untill it flips.

[Phyb.6704]

Yeah its not playable in this state. Zero use.

The damage is garbage. 

Icerazor....

• 20x 3k dmg over 6 sec.... to 3x 3k dmg with no time stamp for how long it takes.... feels to be about 3 sec because of the animation.
• The cooldown is the same so its just a damage loss. So its just worse every 10sec?
• This is gives 3 torment and vulnerability.
• If you're going strike damage both 1h sword and 2h sword gives vulnerability stacks so I would not use it for a strike damage build.
• 3 torment does not make me feel it is worth using at all for a condi build. There is other skills I would hit and spam before this such as shortbow skills.
• Does aprox 15% of the damage it used to do.

Darkrazor

• Dmg was dropped heavily. Aprox 50% of the strike dmg. 
• The stability is not instant due to the aprox 3 sec animation so you still have to really time it.
• The bar break is also not instant and is aprox 3 sec due to the animation.
• The stun break does not req enhanced but the tooltip is horrible and makes it sound like it does. Fix it please.
• We went from 6 sec to get the same but far more damage to 3 sec to get little to do damage and half the utility.
• Do not forget it has the same cooldown so now we get less every 12 sec.

Why the prot on everything? 

• We have a boon support spec on the same class.... herald.
• Why would a player use renegade over herald for prot?
• Alac dps is a option but the damage is garbage.
• Boon support with prot is taking herald. 
• Why does the enhance not focus on more damage?

Soulcleave.....

• It gets effected by toughness and such.
• I am seeing the tooltip say 500 lifesteal damage and 400 strike damage and the combat log say 730 dmg. 
• If the strike damage was a bonus added to those under the effect to boost skill / ability damage so it could be multiplied by crit dmg then it could be useful but it really does not feel worth it personally. 

Breakrazor....

 

My opinion is that there is no reason to play renegade now. It is horrible.
The cooldowns could have at least been reduced and not even that was done.

[Randomm.2470]

Issues with the new implementation

• The "duo" cooldown goes back to the actual cooldown after the summon's skill is used, so like 1-2 seconds into the skill
• The skills swapping to the "duo" mode cancels aiming the next summon
• Icerazor does not grant YOU Battle Scars
• The Band Together-tooltip badly explains the "activates instantly" part. The summoning doesn't have a cast time, the summon's skill wind-up stays the same
• While you cannot target the summons while the are doing their things, the good'ol "corpses" they leave behind are still targetable

---

Before Vindi and power heralds "upgrades" I used to like to play power rene in the open world and I'm sad how half-baked this rework feels in both design and execution.

[Me Kill You.9035]

28 minutes ago, Susi Musi.2964 said:

First i thought the same that it only break stun if it empowered, but only thentooltip that's in a dumb format. The empowered version only applies resistance in addition of the base effect. The segmentation is bad for the tooltip. Also the "flip" effect for the empowered skills is slow, you cant chain two utility skills. A bit bothersome to use to wait untill it flips.

Ok I just tested again and you're right it does break normal CC like before, but what I can confirm is that it will not let you recover when you are knocked on the ground after falling from high up unless it is enhanced

[VulcanPyroman.8571]

Casual Renegade enjoyer. But this update feels bad. It is super awkward to use, in particular with the flipping skills. And although I havent checked the numbers this feels like a huge nerf. Maybe very good players can push it, but for casual enjoyers like me this gave it a massive nerve, way harder to play and looks like much lower damage. Also Renegade wasn't the build pushing the highest numbers as far as I know, so it also doesn't make much sense to me.

I really don't like this update.

[Shagie.7612]

cackling

ayo where them "it's gonna be so much better!" players at

[Heinel.6548]

Also darkrazor only deals 200 defiance now, NOT the stated 600 on the tooltip (and what the previous version did). Tested on the golem.

It's either not working correctly or this is a straight nerf with a tooltip lie cover up.

It also does like 1 sec of cripple, which isn't on the tooltip.

Edited March 19 by Heinel.6548

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Me Kill You.9035 said:

I really don't like how the stun break works on Darkrazor now,  it only breaks stun if it is empowered which is a very small window, so you need to predict within a few seconds of when you think you're going to need it and feels so bad to me

Huh?

How did I stunbreak myself then multipble times without using empowerment.

I think it's rather bad written tooltip and still works fine for break

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

5 hours ago, owencr.5469 said:

Add a buff or an indicator around energy to show empowered, (similar to malice on deadeye but singular?)

I feel like at the very least, the "flip" over versions that are supposed to be the empowered skills (what a weird way to implement them) could have been inverted colors, or orange themed... so on the tooltip art for each skill blue is normal, orange is empowered.

 

Edited March 19 by UncreativeGreen.2019

[Bdecki.7856]

I can't place these guys anywhere either. There is a lot of skills that do this but this one is especially bad. In WvW 80% of the terrain is "Invalid path to target"

[Yasai.3549]

4 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

looks like it was designed for weapon swapping to maximize, but engies can't weapon swap

Toolkits. 

5 hours ago, Tobias.4975 said:

Sorry, but i think it is very unlikely that anyone from anet is reading this, especially after the adjustments of the scepter.

 

Hammerbolt rebalance got me excited then I saw Scepter patch notes and was like "Yep. Just tone deaf as heck" do they do their balancing off DPS Golemn or something? 

[arazoth.7290]

32 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

cackling

ayo where them "it's gonna be so much better!" players at

Well for pvp it's atleast some better, already made a few builds with it 😅. WvW not tested and pve from reading here, number wise some nerfs 😞

 

Energy could be lower overall on its stance abilties/ F-skills, it would feel a lot more smooth then. I am good at energy management but getting useage out of all F-Skills/abilties I can't.

I am not using heroic commandment/Bombardment because too HC not enough useage/waste and bombardement too costly.

 

So there is still work to do

 

[Yasai.3549]

38 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

cackling

ayo where them "it's gonna be so much better!" players at

I've never seen them on here at least. All I saw was a bunch of people unimpressed with the stream and the preview notes and wished Kalla was fully reworked.

[arazoth.7290]

4 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Toolkits. 

Hammerbolt rebalance got me excited then I saw Scepter patch notes and was like "Yep. Just tone deaf as heck" do they do their balancing off DPS Golemn or something? 

Hammer is nice now yea.

But scepter made me cry 😐

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

6 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Toolkits.  

Yea keep saying that when shield and mace are still a thing. The shortbow is just inferior in every conceivable way and you only pick it if you want a personal handicap and be an inferior support scrapper/mechanist.

[Shagie.7612]

21 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Well for pvp it's atleast some better, already made a few builds with it 😅

nah lol

75 energy to get them all out without any orders or weapon skills is disgusting
no ability to protect yourself with them is awful
the barrier is 1500 and it's only on the final pulse, ~3 after she starts, closer to ~3.5 after hitting the button tbh.

unless they all hit like storm spirit levels it's not any better
and they don't, and never will

they did finally fix the soulcleave bug though, and now it does the correct damage instead of literally 1/4th what it was supposed to do for no reason

 

 

Edited March 19 by Shagie.7612

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

75 energy to get them all out without any orders or weapon skills is disgusting

Yea the Energy Bottleneck is a gameplay flow problem with Kalla's new design atm but it's not due to Kalla, it's because Revenants are waiting around at 50 Energy on swap or entering combat cos hurhurhur. (Literally have a thread about how this new design is gonna pigeon hole Kalla deeper into a "demanded to spam but unable to" situation)

As the others have also mentioned, there NEEDS to be a UI indicator if you are currently able to Band Together. I was playing it in WvW and honestly while NOT BAD in small scale/duels but horrendous when there's alot going on. It definitely does not help that the skills have terrible range and terrible terrain checks for casting. 

Overall: Good attempt at making Kalla more user friendly but it still has several Functionality issues plaguing it, namely the terrain check and the godawful range. 

 

My suggestions are relatively simple:
 

Band Together mechanic: Consumes 5 stacks of Kalla's Fervor to trigger. 

You have Kalla's Fervor? You're good to go, no need to spam back to back Summons. 

 

All for One: When you use a Citadel Order, instantly gain 5 stacks of Kalla's Fervor (balance accordingly to game mode) 

For the people who like to wait on Energy and then machine gun skills. 

 

 

 

[Shagie.7612]

33 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Yea the Energy Bottleneck is a gameplay flow problem with Kalla's new design atm but it's not due to Kalla

I'm not entirely sure that's true now. The new Kalla strongly encourages, arguably forces you to cast all of the skills.

Previously, a power Ren had no reason to cast Razorclaw for example, unless you were super full of energy and looking to swap and had no other way to dump it.

Now, with empowers, you need to use it to empower Icerazor for example, because you don't want to use your stunbreak or heal for that since they're situational and more important.

However I do agree that energy is a problem for Renegade at large. Even the standard Jalis/Shiro builds consume a lot more than most other builds, and it has no way to gain it back like core or Vindi.

I don't think it's particularly stronger now than it was, just slightly different, still unable to protect itself, still some of the lowest sustain around, still just as easy to w key into the dirt.