Power creep ruined open world shared participation philosophy

[Player.2475]

I started a new character and went through the leveling experience, and every time I participate in any larger event, I am met with a dozen fully decked out level 80 players that instantly kill every single enemy as soon as it spawns with their raid full dps rotations and traits. In many cases even veteran and champion enemies melt away in mere seconds.

Of course, I am an experienced player and understand you get participation from giving boons, so I swap out some utilities and get almost 100% participation regardless of these players. But because I am not a sociopath I try to think about how these toxic playstyles affect other people, especially new players coming to the game.

When I started GW2 back in 2012, I praised the game for how you did not have to compete with other players for enemies, loot etc. like you would in a game like World of Warcraft, where every time you'd hit an enemy, it would become yours, and you'd be incentivized to just tag as many enemies before other players could, to guarantee you are the one who gets the loot and contribution. Instead, as long as you dealt any damage to an enemy, you would still be entitled to your own instance of the rewards whether you soloed it or you were one of 50 people who killed it.

The problem in 2024 GW2 is... ANY damage = ALL damage for pretty much every power based end-game build. You could autoattack an enemy and still probably kill it in a second. Of course, most people do not just autoattack with a weak weapon or a weaker build, they just go full ham.

You can already see the consequences of such power creep in the expansions where a lot of normal enemies have to be replaced with veterans, but even that is not enough. Not to mention, these bandaids were not implemented in core Tyria which will be the first experience most new players will have with the game, and I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to have a fully geared player teleporting all over the place and killing enemies before you even have a chance to react. With rewards and PvE dailies being the way they are, they also encourage higher level players to enter low level areas, which doesn't help either.

Now, I am wondering what can be done about this?

Obviously boon sharing is a good workaround, but it is not the solution. Even stricter level-scaling is not sufficient because this sort of stuff happens even in level 80 areas. Back when people did not have access to as much damage, selfish players would not be able to decimate entire waves of enemies in under a second, but now that's basically the norm.

Edited March 28 by Player.2475

[Astralporing.1957]

I have done a laid-back key run recently. I haven't leveled up that character with tomes or anything else (just through normal gameplay). I haven't geared up that character with enything else than level-up rewards and drops. Mobs still melted to me in seconds, as fast as they always did if you knew what you're doing. Yes, "fast" means that when using weapons with better autoattack damage mobs did get oneshotted.

It's even more visible if you use ranged weapons - i.e. necro staff or engi rifle can do wonders in early game.

While there's definitely visible power creep, i think the real issue here is that you have just actually forgotten how easy the early areas are if you just prioritise equipping gear with damage-related stats instead of just wearing whatever. Or, more specifically, if you just pay attention to gear up for power dps (because condi in early game is not worth as much).

It's less a case of power creep, and more of having actual game knowledge and utilizing it well.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Sorry for the 35k dmg AoEs that I can use every 3 or so seconds. 😅

On a for fun build. Not even raid viable. 

[Passerbye.6291]

Not arguing that power creep isn't a thing, it most definitely is and has been a huge problem in endgame content imo, but wanted to mention, I wish some of those people doing full rotations and massive damage would join my raid/fractal/strike runs lol, I mostly get the 5-10k "hi dps" players.

[Player.2475]

13 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Not arguing that power creep isn't a thing, it most definitely is and has been a huge problem in endgame content imo, but wanted to mention, I wish some of those people doing full rotations and massive damage would join my raid/fractal/strike runs lol, I mostly get the 5-10k "hi dps" players.

The snowcrows benchmark players are too busy using their masterful execution of rotations on level 1 queensdale mobs.

[Danikat.8537]

I doubt it would be the whole solution but I do think level scaling should be adjusted. Higher level characters have always had an advantage even when down-scaled because it scales down each attribute individually and at higher levels you can have many more attributes. It also doesn't apply to extra effects from traits, runes, relics, jade bot etc. if their damage is based on your attributes it will scale them down, but it's still an additional source of damage (or boons) which lower level players won't have.
 

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I have done a laid-back key run recently. I haven't leveled up that character with tomes or anything else (just through normal gameplay). I haven't geared up that character with enything else than level-up rewards and drops. Mobs still melted to me in seconds, as fast as they always did if you knew what you're doing. Yes, "fast" means that when using weapons with better autoattack damage mobs did get oneshotted.

It's even more visible if you use ranged weapons - i.e. necro staff or engi rifle can do wonders in early game.

While there's definitely visible power creep, i think the real issue here is that you have just actually forgotten how easy the early areas are if you just prioritise equipping gear with damage-related stats instead of just wearing whatever. Or, more specifically, if you just pay attention to gear up for power dps (because condi in early game is not worth as much).

It's less a case of power creep, and more of having actual game knowledge and utilizing it well.

I've noticed this. I've got a 'survivor' or 'iron man' or whatever you want to call it challenge character who (among other restrictions) only wears white quality equipment with no upgrades, and because I suck at it and die sooner or later I keep repeating the lower levels. Because white quality equipment is restricted to beserker stats (mighty or strong at lower levels, giving power and precision) I always have matching stats and (unlike on most my characters) I make sure to upgrade it all every 10 levels. Also because I know I'm restricted to beserker stats I'm using a power build, although focused on defence rather than DPS because my top priority is not dying.

That puts me in a weird position where I'm noticeably much weaker than the high level characters who come storming through events, but also often stronger than other low level characters, in spite of lacking higher tier equipment and upgrades. If it's just me and other low levels I have to be careful not to be the one sniping all the enemies before anyone else gets a chance, because I'm trying to stay at range and can kill them in 2-3 hits. But then if anyone above our level comes along, especially level 80's with lots of mastery points (meaning they're likely to also have full ascended and all the upgrades) I'm almost guaranteed to be unable to tag anything because they're gone before I get there. Especially since I can't just hop on a mount (not allowed on this character) or equip a speed boost (not unlocked yet) to rush to mobs when they spawn.

I don't think it's an easy problem to solve because there's so many factors that can go into how much damage you do and how many targets you can hit, and I absolutely wouldn't want Anet to simplify the game to 'fix' that, so I'm not sure what the solution is, but I'd like them to investigate options.

[jason.1083]

5 minutes ago, Player.2475 said:

The snowcrows benchmark players are too busy using their masterful execution of rotations on level 1 queensdale mobs.

I always do my full rotations on ambient mobs, I like seeing 10 million critical hits. Big boy dps.

[Gendalfs.7521]

Useless 1000 times dicussed topic. Wtf cares about core Tyria. And if even dps is over the board there, this game has shared loot and theres no kill stealing possible. 

[Danikat.8537]

2 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Useless 1000 times dicussed topic. Wtf cares about core Tyria. And if even dps is over the board there, this game has shared loot and theres no kill stealing possible. 

There's no kill stealing in the sense it works in other games, where only the person who hits an enemy first, or last, gets the XP and loot. But if someone kills enemies so fast no one else can hit them at all then those other people won't get participation in events and won't get XP or loot. It's entirely possible for a high level character in a low level map to rush in using a mount, use their engage skill, then an AoE and wipe out a whole group of event enemies right as they spawn.

[Player.2475]

31 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Useless 1000 times dicussed topic. Wtf cares about core Tyria. And if even dps is over the board there, this game has shared loot and theres no kill stealing possible. 

What Danikat said:

24 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

There's no kill stealing in the sense it works in other games, where only the person who hits an enemy first, or last, gets the XP and loot. But if someone kills enemies so fast no one else can hit them at all then those other people won't get participation in events and won't get XP or loot. It's entirely possible for a high level character in a low level map to rush in using a mount, use their engage skill, then an AoE and wipe out a whole group of event enemies right as they spawn.

But also happens in HoT and PoF lol. The only reason it doesn't happen in EoD and SotO is because nobody plays them

[UNDEAD.6108]

Power creep have always being a thing in Guild Wars 2, sure it was not huge thing back in 2012 when most players where still learning the game but even back then there was still lots of player who focused on making a build to kill enemies fast as possible solo.

 

Getting rid of power creep completely is something that will be imposible to do, without making players unable to solo any of enemies but this is really bad idea.

[hellsmachine.4085]

I think they should buff old content, it's a bit too easy.

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, hellsmachine.4085 said:

I think they should buff old content, it's a bit too easy.

Maybe not too easy for new players?

[hellsmachine.4085]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Maybe not too easy for new players?

I think even for new players it's a bit too easy. It doesn't have to be as tough as HoT or PoF, but more challenge wouldn't hurt. Making the hearts quicker to complete would also make it feel less grindy, some of them take way longer than necessary to complete.

[Zephire.8049]

3 hours ago, hellsmachine.4085 said:

I think they should buff old content, it's a bit too easy.

I wouldn't trust the current team to do that. They "modernized" the three starter world bosses in the past year or so—Fire Elemental, Shadow Behemoth, Svanir Shaman—and now they're HP sponges that take ages to kill even when there's 50+ level 80s there who are trying to kill it ASAP. I don't know how they're supposed to be fun or engaging for new players, honestly.

[Zera.9435]

The reason they don't buff that type of content is because it would reduce the feasibility of said content to the casuals, which are the primary demographic of this game. Just because some of us have optimized gear, builds, and stats, does not mean that every else around you is doing the same thing.  You might be doing 30k damage, but I guarantee you that some around you are doing maybe half that because they are casuals. Not everyone is optimized nor cares to be. Let people play whatever builds they want, however they want. There's no need to force casuals to use the so-called power creep. You forget that to this day there are people who are relatively new or haven't played in years and will not be dishing out 30k damage with a single hit.

Maybe we 'gods among insects' should stop using our raid rotations in PvE and stick to auto attacks only so that the casuals can get credit, too...

OR

Instead, what they should do is adjust the scaling of level 80 players in lower level zones. It's a scaling issue, not a power creep.

[Therac.6431]

What you consider raid rotation? Maybe 2 or 3 build still need a "rotation" with a real level of complexity, alot of them you just need press every button on CD and repeat

[Althean.5976]

This would be my inclination as well, at least to start out with. More aggressive scaling still leaves it open to new and casual players. Like, point of diminishing returns style of scaling so that it achieves what it was intended to do in preventing gods-amongst-mere-mortals from happening just because of the level. It'd be nice to feel like I have to work for the events in Orr again lol

 

There's nothing to say it can't be revisited and revised later, too. They do that all the time with balance patches

[hellsmachine.4085]

6 hours ago, Zera.9435 said:

The reason they don't buff that type of content is because it would reduce the feasibility of said content to the casuals, which are the primary demographic of this game. Just because some of us have optimized gear, builds, and stats, does not mean that every else around you is doing the same thing.  You might be doing 30k damage, but I guarantee you that some around you are doing maybe half that because they are casuals. Not everyone is optimized nor cares to be. Let people play whatever builds they want, however they want. There's no need to force casuals to use the so-called power creep. You forget that to this day there are people who are relatively new or haven't played in years and will not be dishing out 30k damage with a single hit.

Maybe we 'gods among insects' should stop using our raid rotations in PvE and stick to auto attacks only so that the casuals can get credit, too...

OR

Instead, what they should do is adjust the scaling of level 80 players in lower level zones. It's a scaling issue, not a power creep.

I still think it's a bit too easy even for new players. Making the game a bit more challenging and less grindy, by making hearts fill up quicker would make the new player experience feel a bit more exciting. Because the way it is at the moment it's very grindy with no sense of danger.

Your idea is good too, they should do both. That would make old content less boring for new and veteran players.

Edited March 30 by hellsmachine.4085

[Smoky.5348]

Buffing core Tyria HP will not help. More health means you need to do more damage to get your minimum credit. Dealt 10k damage? Nope, no credit if that didn't pass the percentage threshold. 

This literally wouldn't be an issue if the game would just give you pity credit if you at least scratch the enemy. Easy band-aid fix. AFK leachers are gonna AFK leech no matter what, especially now that there's skyscale ""combat"", so no one's getting hurt from such a change. If anything, we need it to compete with the skyscales and DPS freaks.

Of course, it'd be nice if events scaled more intelligently. When an event scales well, all it's doing is spamming more mobs or buffing their levels. It'd be better if they spread those spawns across multiple areas so players have to split up and, you know, take actual advantage of their numbers.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

It's the boons.

Builds have been doing 30-35k DPS since HoT.  This was after quickness was made a boon and alacrity was introduced.  Builds now doing 42k isn't a significant increase from this baseline.  What has changed is boon availability.  When all this old content was released, alacrity did not exist, quickness was a non-boostable buff that was quite rare, and getting 25 stacks of might required a lot of coordinated blast finishers to accomplish.  Getting maximum DPS was all about maintaining fury, which was the best and most efficient boon.  Running a "meta" build meant having 5 stacks of might, self-fury, and vigor to dodge all the attacks.

The Jade Tech Overcharge Buffs all but boon-cap a player while solo.  Now, builds give out shared fury and shared might automatically, making their maintenance not even a consideration.  Aside from that, Quickness and Alacrity are now incredibly common, as are buffing builds in general.  To make a buffer in this game is almost a trivial matter, as most professions are near the boon cap with no boon duration investment.  Finally, true healing builds now exist, and a greater proliferation of aegis/protection/stability means that players are much safer face-tanking enemies than they were prior.  Combine all this together, and we have open world builds doing 2.3x the damage they did previously from boons alone.

As a bit of a smaller note, condition builds weren't a thing back then due to the stack limit.  Because of this, a lot of the excess damage done was lost due to the stack culling, and anyone running a rabid condi build might as well been invisible.

The solution to this isn't easy.  The introduction of high sources of boon duration has created a situation where either the boon builds need it, or they don't.  If boon builds are changed to require 80% duration to maintain their boons (essentially full Diviner), then the overworld boon overload would be culled significantly... at the cost of the performance of support builds in other places.  If non-boosted boons are to remain valuable, then the overworld events would need to be buffed as to compensate for the fact that we're all jacked up on some serious juice now.  Though there's the third option:  do nothing.  Chances are, Anet will take the third option, as the first two don't really present any ROI for the man-hours put into them.  

[Mongori.9467]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:46 AM, Zephire.8049 said:

They "modernized" the three starter world bosses in the past year or so—Fire Elemental, Shadow Behemoth, Svanir Shaman—and now they're HP sponges that take ages to kill even when there's 50+ level 80s there who are trying to kill it ASAP. I don't know how they're supposed to be fun or engaging for new players, honestly.

Yesterday we killed the Shaman with about 5 ppl, amongst these at least 2 ~L24. Was an epic battle & took quite some time, but was doable (& lots of fun!). These bosses seem to scale quite well.

Have fun!

[Surelia.2651]

I think the down-scaling is a bit wonky sometimes, to be honest.  For example, there is a Champion that typically spawns around Clayent Falls in Queensdale (I forget his name), who time and again will just wipe out everyone including groups of vets on skyscales.  I am near there often since I have a low level alt parked in Claypool doing crafting.   Similar issue with Ruye the Crimson in Kessex Hills.  No matter how many vets turn up they always seem to be killed just as fast as any other player, so its seems they don't actually scale downscale everything on the map in the same ways; either that or most of the time people are just too busy typing curses at these bosses to kill them 😂

[KindredPhoenyx.8976]

I think we are due to bring the power creep in line. Too often I see people in core maps making comments at the 80s nuking events, and not getting participation.
That said it is old content, but it shouldn't be nuked into irrelevancy like WoW has with its legacy content (its a ghost town in most maps in that game and its actually somewhat unnerving there isn't a soul to be seen til Dragonflight these days).

Edited April 2 by KindredPhoenyx.8976

[kharmin.7683]

24 minutes ago, Surelia.2651 said:

I think the down-scaling is a bit wonky sometimes, to be honest.  For example, there is a Champion that typically spawns around Clayent Falls in Queensdale (I forget his name), who time and again will just wipe out everyone including groups of vets on skyscales.  I am near there often since I have a low level alt parked in Claypool doing crafting.   Similar issue with Ruye the Crimson in Kessex Hills.  No matter how many vets turn up they always seem to be killed just as fast as any other player, so its seems they don't actually scale downscale everything on the map in the same ways; either that or most of the time people are just too busy typing curses at these bosses to kill them 😂

Those are bandit bounties if I recall.  They're supposed to be difficult.  This is by design because players asked for some more challenging content in these zones.