WTF is Anet doing to WvW?

[Gehenna.3625]

1 minute ago, Chaos God.1639 said:

the problem with such conclusions is that you are blaming the game and not the players. what if the changes you are asking for will backfire at you? will you then go back to the forums to complain about the game not being balanced?

players who don't complain about the boonballs already found a way how to defeat their enemies and are enjoying the game in it's current state. that's way this phrase exists: "dont blame the game, blame the player".

Not sure what you're getting at but I think you have it backwards. Usually the game is the problem because players can only do what the game allows them to do. And clearly people found a way to deal with boonballs (spoiler: it's by playing a boonball yourself). However, the complaints start when there are unequal situations. And boonballs make unequal situations ten times worse. You can have a boonball with 25 players on one side and a pug group of 50 on the other side and the boonball will win. 

[Chaos God.1639]

34 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Not sure what you're getting at but I think you have it backwards. Usually the game is the problem because players can only do what the game allows them to do. And clearly people found a way to deal with boonballs (spoiler: it's by playing a boonball yourself). However, the complaints start when there are unequal situations. And boonballs make unequal situations ten times worse. You can have a boonball with 25 players on one side and a pug group of 50 on the other side and the boonball will win. 

this will mostly be the case in any situations. you can check any real battles, like ww2 battles. supplies, numbers, logistics,... are all important. for example I heard how ussr was able to isolate the axis troops and beat them with numbers, while most will just say ussr had more troops. you still need a strategy to beat your enemy.

thats why I think we should also see wvw as an rts game and not just a dueling/fps game.

it's possible that the game will be more enjoyable for some players after changing the boons. I still think that anet should make such decisions, because players will just want to change the game for their own benefits. then they will probably complain later, because they keep losing after the new changes that they had asked for were made.

Edited May 11 by Chaos God.1639

[Kranlor Greyhelm.8417]

1 hour ago, Chaos God.1639 said:

players who don't complain about the boonballs already found a way how to defeat their enemies and are enjoying the game in its current state. that's way this phrase exists: "dont blame the game, blame the player".

Feel free to share those methods of defeating boonballs with the rest of us. Assuming that your answer isn't "get a bigger or better composed boonball".

It isn't a cloud, because that doesn't work. It isn't defensive siege, that's literally worthless. So what is this simple way of defeating boonballs that players are using to "enjoy the game in its current state"?

[Chaos God.1639]

55 minutes ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

Feel free to share those methods of defeating boonballs with the rest of us. Assuming that your answer isn't "get a bigger or better composed boonball".

It isn't a cloud, because that doesn't work. It isn't defensive siege, that's literally worthless. So what is this simple way of defeating boonballs that players are using to "enjoy the game in its current state"?

to me it's not even clear what people are complaining about when they talk about boons. I also don't have hours to spend in wvw just to understand what some are talking about. maybe this is also because we play on different servers,...

this topic was initially created as a reaction to the latest changes for defenders. and some want to also nerf the "permanent" boons. I assume that changing the "permanent" boons will make it even harder to defend, but if you disagree, then it's your opinion.

players should create a video and show what they think isn't ok, I think this will be beneficial for the developers and others on this forum.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

I posted this in another thread, but I'll add it here too.  Back when wvw was much more worth playing.  The VERY BEST players, at least the ones I ran into, and played with.   Died 5-20 times per hour, when fighting average experienced players.  In the post HoT+PoF era, the very best players are now often down to dying 0-1-3 times in 3-5 hours when fighting average experienced players.  This is primarily caused by changes made to the game, to enable support builds for instanced content in PVE.

And hey, ever since I switched to Minstrel for group engagements, I now often die single digit times in 3-5 hours.

It makes for a very uninteractive experience.

Another related problem, is that you can basically sort guilds by how many good zerglings they have, and use it to predict who will win fights.  This makes for a strict pecking order, and explains why so few actual fights happen at objectives.  Most guilds show up, give it a go 1-3 times per sesssion or per week, and after that, they're done.  They're not going to waste time fighting a group that has a 90+% win rate against them.

 

 

[Zok.4956]

On 5/8/2024 at 10:28 AM, Mabi black.1824 said:

I don't think I agree with what you're suggesting, or better yet I don't agree with the question you mentioned. This is a large-scale PvP game.

WvW is also Anet's version/vision of open world PvP. Which is why this game mode consists of (or at least once consisted of) more than just large scale fights.

[Zok.4956]

On 5/8/2024 at 9:57 AM, Mabi black.1824 said:

This is literally how WVW is meant to be played/interpreted. This is a PvP fighting game, but also a strategy game. If you play with these 2 aspects in mind you won't even have to search for content, because they will present themselves to you (as expected) if you take into account only 1 of these aspects you will miss out on quite a few fun things along the way.

Not entirely wrong. But if all the maps only have one color because the number of players is so extremely different, and the strategy is that you don't completely scare away the few players on the losing team so that they continue to flip back structures that you can conquer shortly after, then it's no longer fun. This situation is not theoretical, but real. I often experience it from both the superior and inferior sides.

And: You can't look at the impact of the changes individually, but rather what impact they have on real players in the real game, given the current population imbalances.

[Stegus.4285]

We play atm against baruch-bay. What is the meaning in wvw if servers having another timezone or y they r playing against us? we cap their things at daytime, they overwhelm us during night? no serious content for both. nice one.

[Intrudjeeer.1570]

On 5/11/2024 at 12:54 PM, Chaos God.1639 said:

the problem with such conclusions is that you are blaming the game and not the players. what if the changes you are asking for will backfire at you? will you then go back to the forum to complain about the game not being balanced?

players who don't complain about the boonballs already found a way how to defeat their enemies and are enjoying the game in its current state. that's way this phrase exists: "dont blame the game, blame the player".

Ok. Lets say we go your way. I am lets say at the moment playing on my necro. I throw a well at a enemy player, 3 boons down,  in 2 seconds full boon up. Now what? My well is on cd, he is full buffed. Dont want to mention I dont have time to cc, dps, etc in those 2 seconds.

As I mentioned before, you dont even need a dps in current meta cause he will just hit into full buff walls.

But as you said,  everyone playing as they like it. The days where spellbreaker elite really made a difference were way better than current bunker meta.

[Mabi black.1824]

On 5/8/2024 at 11:10 PM, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

The problem is if the 40 can’t even scratch the 20 even in defence of an important objective and have no realistic way of slowing them down or avoiding just getting farmed if they try.

It's actually not a problem, because we should contextualize what happens when 40 fail to clear 20. It happens on my server too. Normally those 40 don't have a commander, normally the Discord appointment starts in 15 min. So 5 of them are on WP who rightly start preparations for the race that starts in 15 min. 5 more are on the outer gate fixing 5 are on the inner gate repairing. 2 or 3 consume supplies they chose to build a golem and bring it to WP. 2 or 3 are on the walls parrying arrows and spells. So in the end it's maybe 15 who are actually trying to play against 20 enemies sitting on the Lord. So, should this be a problem? This is the formidable line-up of 20 men vs 40 that is actually continuously erasing the same 10 or 15?

[Widebody.5071]

This was a long drawn out plan that allowed boon balls to reach where they are now. All the little nerfs here and little nerfs there with some being quite large nerfs. I've said many times before if they keep catering to the complainers the game balance will be so wacked out of balance it'll be unfixable. 

It remains me of fighting a mesmer between garrison and ascension bay back in the day we fought to a draw and I was like enough of this but the dude wouldn't disengage so we fought to 3 more draws before he finally figured out he couldn't beat me. That one incident started all the past and present vitriol and toxic encounters I experience in the forums and wvw. This has been going on for 12+ years that continued even after a taking a 6-7 year break, why? I have no idea, that's beyond my rational reasoning 

It's all about the easy come up with as little effort as possible. I guess hurt people gonna try to hurt others, bless their soul.

 

[Mabi black.1824]

On 5/11/2024 at 1:49 PM, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

Feel free to share those methods of defeating boonballs with the rest of us. Assuming that your answer isn't "get a bigger or better composed boonball".

It isn't a cloud, because that doesn't work. It isn't defensive siege, that's literally worthless. So what is this simple way of defeating boonballs that players are using to "enjoy the game in its current state"?

There's nothing out of the ordinary, you just need players with a similar number and who know what to do and when to do it. I often see it happen, often we are not on the voice, we often cloud. It can be challenging (so nicer for some of us) it may take longer the fight becomes a prolonged confrontation. You also need some purpose-built constructions at the limit, but the mode gives you everything you need. Normally you have to force them to move, continuously (I have buildings with at least 4 abilities that pulse on the ground for 6+sec over 8-10k with 6+6sec of unblockable) and when they move even the cloud uses spike targhet one by one. You'll see them fall 1, 2 every time and eventually you'll see them all fall together, or in a useless escape. not even 1 will survive.

You can find better groups. Even when you force them to move, they do it in a very orderly manner. They can and often deserve to beat you as well. In the end, they will be able to take the Lord and with him the structure. You don't have to look at it as a problem or as if it's broken. This game mode is PvP sometimes you win sometimes you lose, it doesn't matter, what matters is your participation. Play and have fun.

Edited May 13 by Mabi black.1824

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

On 4/17/2024 at 5:42 AM, Nidome.1365 said:

I've been playing GW2 since launch and WvW close to that. Over the last year Anet have just been making changes that have been destroying WvW. Another 6 months with more changes like this and WvW will become unplayable.

What is the point of having objectives any more? Every change makes them less defensible.

I have to ask, is the systematic destruction of WvW deliberate?

This going on for years they nerfed siege war more and more and the beginning this was maybe justified and zerg wars are fun but they failed to make reasonable mix. First they nerfed the rewards for siege with roughly 10:90 mix in favor of zerg fight. Then they nerfed the walls and siege gear/weapons. Then they made banner fix to the tower the only reason to keep them. The aura change will do the same for the main keeps. Arena.Net has the absolute nasty habit to semi-remove stuff. It doesn't matter if it is Elementist classes like Tempest and Weaver in Fractal Cms, Dungeons, Most healers in PvP or the WvW siege war. Most of them are just big balls moves which push players away. 

This for me the main reason to wait for GW3 a lot of the balance this game receives is I have the feeling only for the sake that the balance team has something to do since a year after  PoE release. This feeling got only stronger and stronger over the years

Edited May 13 by Lord of the Fire.6870

[Mabi black.1824]

23 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Not entirely wrong. But if all the maps only have one color because the number of players is so extremely different, and the strategy is that you don't completely scare away the few players on the losing team so that they continue to flip back structures that you can conquer shortly after, then it's no longer fun. This situation is not theoretical, but real. I often experience it from both the superior and inferior sides.

And: You can't look at the impact of the changes individually, but rather what impact they have on real players in the real game, given the current population imbalances.

I agree with you. The best, most engaging, funniest expression of WVW is when the 3 sides have similar numbers available. But now in this post I don't know what we're talking about anymore. it's literally derailed on everything. Just complain to Anet about something.

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 hours ago, Stegus.4285 said:

We play atm against baruch-bay. What is the meaning in wvw if servers having another timezone or y they r playing against us? we cap their things at daytime, they overwhelm us during night? no serious content for both. nice one.

Coverage is a serious point in servers. Hence why the WR needs to account for it. Just balancing numbers does no good unless it accounts for time of play as well. Its also why I say no mins to take. Had 20 v 120, needed to jump around and split a lot to just try and keep them in 2 groups across maps. Removing mins from takes would just mean zerg wins versus allowing some containment while requiring smaller groups to play smarter and allowing for counter tactics to zerg it down.

[TheGrimm.5624]

23 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I agree with you. The best, most engaging, funniest expression of WVW is when the 3 sides have similar numbers available. But now in this post I don't know what we're talking about anymore. it's literally derailed on everything. Just complain to Anet about something.

A big part remains the same. What is the balance in defense versus offense. The last patch was stated as defense was in favor, a lot of posts were about but under what instances? 

[Dawdler.8521]

30 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Hence why the WR needs to account for it. Just balancing numbers does no good unless it accounts for time of play as well.

How would you maintain that?

If you logon normally at 18:00 but suddenly you have a day off work and log on at 09:00 instead you are greeted with a “YOU CANNOT ENTER WVW AT THIS TIME DUE TO WRONG TIMESLOT” message when clicking on EBG that’s cried for more players the last hour as they are being double teamed even though it’s otherwise a perfect 1:1 population balance?

[Gehenna.3625]

On 5/11/2024 at 12:09 PM, Chaos God.1639 said:

this will mostly be the case in any situations. you can check any real battles, like ww2 battles. supplies, numbers, logistics,... are all important. for example I heard how ussr was able to isolate the axis troops and beat them with numbers, while most will just say ussr had more troops. you still need a strategy to beat your enemy.

I'm aware of real life situations. But this is a game and a LOT of what happens in WvW is far from realistic. Far from realistic. Besides, you can't beat people with numbers at some point when there's a map limit. 

On 5/11/2024 at 12:09 PM, Chaos God.1639 said:

thats why I think we should also see wvw as an rts game and not just a dueling/fps game.

Well, it's certainly not an rts game and Anet doesn't treat it as such. The suggestion alone makes me laugh to be honest. WvW is a boonball/zergfest with logistics being nerfed whenever the boonballs get upset at something. It'd be great imo if it was like an rts game but it's not.

On 5/11/2024 at 12:09 PM, Chaos God.1639 said:

it's possible that the game will be more enjoyable for some players after changing the boons. I still think that anet should make such decisions, because players will just want to change the game for their own benefits. then they will probably complain later, because they keep losing after the new changes that they had asked for were made.

I took a break from WvW for a couple of months. I came back since last reset on Friday. I used to be a scout but now I just run along with the zerg and I've stopped building defensive siege. In fact, I no longer care about defending stuff. I just wait for them to take it unless we have a zerg defending. We can take it back after anyways. And you know what? It actually makes my WvW experience a lot less frustrating... but also a lot less interesting. I now use my scouting skills to determine when the battle is pointless, so I can leave before I get killed heh.

 

[Mabi black.1824]

2 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I took a break from WvW for a couple of months. I came back since last reset on Friday. I used to be a scout but now I just run along with the zerg and I've stopped building defensive siege. In fact, I no longer care about defending stuff. I just wait for them to take it unless we have a zerg defending. We can take it back after anyways. And you know what? It actually makes my WvW experience a lot less frustrating... but also a lot less interesting. I now use my scouting skills to determine when the battle is pointless, so I can leave before I get killed heh.

Translation/Interpretation : I've stopped defending those structures that I know won't be defensible, and I focus on defending where I know my team/server has the numbers and time to support a defensive action. I would use only one word for all this. awareness. 10 years later, it's fair to assume that there are thousands of other players like you who have reached a similar awareness. This is not to say that there is anything wrong or broken in WVW, I have already written it many times, 10 years after the middle level the awareness has risen. It doesn't mean that the content isn't there anymore. The content is still all there, it can be more complicated to get it, or maybe you have to change the way/strategy to get it.

For sure, stacking a server with the usual 12 guilds of snack buddies, is not the best way to bring out that content. But what can I tell you when 10 years later and a bunch of players are still limited to considering and being guided (even giving up the content itself for hours) in the name of a completely useless or meaningless coefficient. I'd say I've said it all. 

On this forum we asked Anet to look more carefully at the competitive aspect. to move out of a perpetual format and into a seasoned format, year after year, so that winning or losing takes on whatever meaning we want to share. When we ask for this, we also do it for what I wrote above, to stimulate the player and the content to emerge in a better way.

Edited May 13 by Mabi black.1824

[Gehenna.3625]

26 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Translation/Interpretation : I've stopped defending those structures that I know won't be defensible, and I focus on defending where I know my team/server has the numbers and time to support a defensive action. I would use only one word for all this. awareness. 10 years later, it's fair to assume that there are thousands of other players like you who have reached a similar awareness. This is not to say that there is anything wrong or broken in WVW, I have already written it many times, 10 years after the middle level the awareness has risen. It doesn't mean that the content isn't there anymore. The content is still all there, it can be more complicated to get it, or maybe you have to change the way/strategy to get it.

I would sum it up as acceptance rather than awareness. I became aware of this months ago already, particularly due to the changes Anet made that disadvantaged defending a structure. And your interpretation glosses over one important aspect: The past few days I've considered the structures to be indefensible 99% of the time or more and at times I simply won't defend it because it's better to just recap it after. It's easier and more rewarding to stay on the offense now.  The strategic aspect of the maps is dead to me now.

The only thing that's left to strategize over is where to meet or avoid the enemy. I mean, you will quickly find out which group is the more powerful one and if that's not you, you either throw yourself at them like lemmings or you try to cap things where you know or hope the enemy won't be. But apparently that awareness isn't there with many commanders yet, I will add. 

26 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

For sure, stacking a server with the usual 12 guilds of snack buddies, is not the best way to bring out that content. But what can I tell you when 10 years later and a bunch of players are still limited to considering and being guided (even giving up the content itself for hours) in the name of a completely useless or meaningless coefficient. I'd say I've said it all. 

Yeah you're right in that. I think Anet has just focused on a limited amount of content, so that it's easier for themselves to deal with WvW. All other types of content are still there theoretically as you said but yeah, a lot of it is meaningless and pointless. I mean, I've stopped playing WvW also in the afternoons altogether because it's not worth it to me anymore to play outside of prime time hours. I need a zerg on our side to be around to get any value or fun out of playing WvW. That used to be different.

26 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

On this forum we asked Anet to look more carefully at the competitive aspect. to move out of a perpetual format and into a seasoned format, year after year, so that winning or losing takes on whatever meaning we want to share. When we ask for this, we also do it for what I wrote above, to stimulate the player and the content to emerge in a better way.

Well, I never asked for that so be careful with the "we". I can only speak for myself, so as for me, I feel a lot less stimulated by now. It's gotten to be a boring one-way-offense street. And though I can enjoy that for a little bit, it bores me quickly and as such I will only play WvW as a side activity rather than my main activity.But if it stimulates other players then great. It just doesn't work for me and, just for the record, I don't think I'm important enough for Anet to ignore other players and just listen to me. It just isn't a fun anymore for me.

Having said that, the main issue for me in WvW is still how powerful boonballs are. Without fixing that it's pointless to change anything else... and I doubt very much Anet will ever nerf boonballs.

[Dawdler.8521]

12 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, I never asked for that so be careful with the "we".

The royal we never excuse themselves!

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

How would you maintain that?

If you logon normally at 18:00 but suddenly you have a day off work and log on at 09:00 instead you are greeted with a “YOU CANNOT ENTER WVW AT THIS TIME DUE TO WRONG TIMESLOT” message when clicking on EBG that’s cried for more players the last hour as they are being double teamed even though it’s otherwise a perfect 1:1 population balance?

They are already at that level when they account for average play, just the sorting logic needs to account for it at the same level if you want to account for coverage. Take any restaurant, they are accounting for expected number of diners and when to manage staffing and food production rates. 

[Widebody.5071]

19 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said:

This was a long drawn out plan that allowed boon balls to reach where they are now. All the little nerfs here and little nerfs there with some being quite large nerfs. I've said many times before if they keep catering to the complainers the game balance will be so wacked out of balance it'll be unfixable. 

It remains me of fighting a mesmer between garrison and ascension bay back in the day we fought to a draw and I was like enough of this but the dude wouldn't disengage so we fought to 3 more draws before he finally figured out he couldn't beat me. That one incident started all the past and present vitriol and toxic encounters I experience in the forums and wvw. This has been going on for 12+ years that continued even after a taking a 6-7 year break, why? I have no idea, that's beyond my rational reasoning 

It's all about the easy come up with as little effort as possible. I guess hurt people gonna try to hurt others, bless their soul.

 

Looks like I it the nail on the head having issues with my account now, the pettiness of some people. I did a little jig in wvw yesterday due to being targeted by a group who'll run past our server's zerg to come after me standing by and watching from 2000 units behind it. Now I have something dancing outside of Selma District. Is it related, or just a coincidence like a the rest of the hundreds of times? I try not to complain about things in game only speak on them but there's some janky, self centered individuals running around and they're not kids. It seems they may be possibly be related to this gaming company, unless a prior post was true about some hacker gaining access to their code. Which may explain why so many abusers are still prevalent in game.

But whatever, enjoy whoever you are, you know when I log in and what section of any map I'm on.... Enjoy the show I hope you find peace in your life and can come to a reckoning with your God. I'm assured that I've done or said nothing to you unless you've came at me first. But if you can't do that what can I say? No one have to live with you but you, so enjoy your misery and bitterness, you all deserve each other.

Some folks are just incapable of being around others.

[Triptaminas.4789]

Here u have it guys https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/studio-update-guild-wars-2-in-spring-and-summer-2024/

The proof that anet is completely out of touch and ain't reading anything u write, and if they do, they deliberately attempt to amplify the problems to spite you or smtg, idfk. 

 

I hope this concludes the thread here as u realize your input doesn't mean kitten. 

Mod, u can close the thread.

[Arrow Blade of El Elyon.9341]

The changes;

The May 21 update also brings some quality-of-life and balance adjustments, largely in response to the feedback we’ve been monitoring since our last round of changes on April 16. We’re continuing to observe the impact of recent changes and expect to iterate more on WvW systems in future updates.

• The health bar for objective lords will now be displayed in the event UI, making their status much easier to track. Pro tip: clicking the lord’s health bar in the event UI will make them your active target. Works for PvE events, too!
• Siege disruptors will now be unblockable.
• We’re increasing the base-level and tier 3 supply capacities for keeps by 50 and increasing the amount of supply granted by the Supply Drop tactic by 100 to add some power back to defending.
• The Chilling Fog tactivator now heals allied players every few seconds for its duration instead of chilling enemy players.
  
  Well, at-least we tried :)