New MMOs Now That WvW Was Murdered?

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 4/20/2024 at 10:38 AM, Riba.3271 said:

I was replying to a roamer. The fact that you assume I only do zerg fights is disrespectful considering I have been in highest rated sPvP lobbies every time I play sPvP. I am also a scout and roam a lot.

You are very rude when painting me to be zerg only player. All I wanted was good 1vs1s and 50vs50s.

I would stay away making baseless assumptions as living within falsehood will prevent you from becoming good player. I have made various suggestions for defense, solo scouting and roaming buffs in the past (evident from my comment history) so you arent exactly on right track. 

 

I cant really respect anyone who lies about others so blatantly, so all you did was lose all credibility

Pot meet kettle much?  You made a LOT of assumptions yourself. 

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

4 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Anyone who doesnt understand importance of 800 stat swings (~30%) damage in 1vs1 is either terrible at gameplay or math.

Dueling scene flourishes when better player wins most duels, server you are in does not matter (SM/SC ownership) and you can duel same person 2 different days regardless of map state

Duels don't happen near structures for this reason, you are just talking about random 1v1 fights

[Riba.3271]

1 hour ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

5 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Anyone who doesnt understand importance of 800 stat swings (~30%) damage in 1vs1 is either terrible at gameplay or math.

Dueling scene flourishes when better player wins most duels, server you are in does not matter (SM/SC ownership) and you can duel same person 2 different days regardless of map state

Duels don't happen near structures for this reason, you are just talking about random 1v1 fights

It seems you are not aware that objective auras zones are same as gliding zones. Meaning it includes all areas around SM, near bay or south camp on borderlands. So the typical dueling spots.

[Bunny.9834]

Ashes of Creations looks promising. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

1 hour ago, Bunny.9834 said:

Ashes of Creations looks promising. 

Sounds interesting at least, although I'm beginning to wonder if it's not gonna be vaporware.

[TheGrimm.5624]

19 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

If you fight against noobs*. It is pretty normal in high level duel for winning player to go below 20% health at some point.  

Since this conversation at the time was about attacking what do you mean? That the attacker probably has skill to not care about defense buff and drop the defender? 

21 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Anyone who doesnt understand importance of 800 stat swings (~30%) damage in 1vs1 is either terrible at gameplay or math.

Dueling scene flourishes when better player wins most duels, server you are in does not matter (SM/SC ownership) and you can duel same person 2 different days regardless of map state

lol, for any attacking Roamer or Havoc, Auras meant nothing. Just meant you weren't set as a Roamer or Havoc. Stop using that as an excuse. Odds were you had different issues and you aren't stating those out for whatever issue. 

[Damian.8127]

On 4/18/2024 at 6:15 PM, Riba.3271 said:

WvW was fixed, not murdered. Try tagging up and organising if your unorganised commanderless cloud cant defend.

Says the guy last tagged last month🤣

[Dreamonology.8362]

That's the thing, there is no other game that has a world vs world/open world/rvr mode that's populated. We been game hopping or expecting other wvw games to come out since 2015ish, most of those projects got scrapped. We went to archage, to black desert online or awaiting camelot unchained (which wont come out) 

gw2 has pretty unique stuff mmo wise. World of warcraft is a pve game with limited dev support for pvp. gw2 wvw is the best thing on the market atm.

[Mabi black.1824]

17 hours ago, DivineDreaming.7206 said:

That's the thing, there is no other game that has a world vs world/open world/rvr mode that's populated. We been game hopping or expecting other wvw games to come out since 2015ish, most of those projects got scrapped. We went to archage, to black desert online or awaiting camelot unchained (which wont come out) 

gw2 has pretty unique stuff mmo wise. World of warcraft is a pve game with limited dev support for pvp. gw2 wvw is the best thing on the market atm.

This is a great place to start. When we participate in discussions in this forum, you should keep this in mind. GW2 and in particular WVW as a large-scale PvP mode represent one of the best products of this genre on the market. even today. 10 years later. Not if we properly realize what they pulled out of the hat when they launched GW2 on Day 1 and how these guys continued to take care of this same product.

The other side of the same coin is that if there had really been an alternative, a market competition in recent years, I firmly believe that we would have seen a lot more investment in our preferred game mode.

[ZTeamG.4603]

On 4/21/2024 at 6:57 PM, Bunny.9834 said:

Ashes of Creations looks promising. 

If only it wasn't planned to be subscription. The lack of a subscription is what originally got me to GW1 in the first place.

[Zepoolpe.9217]

On 4/18/2024 at 11:16 PM, Doo Lally.8594 said:

It's only 'slightly dead' - like the Norwegian Blue Parrot.

It's not, it's resting

[Bunny.9834]

2 hours ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

If only it wasn't planned to be subscription. The lack of a subscription is what originally got me to GW1 in the first place.

Unfortunately, this free model is not sustainable. 

[Riba.3271]

On 4/22/2024 at 11:32 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

On 4/21/2024 at 4:02 PM, Riba.3271 said:

If you fight against noobs*. It is pretty normal in high level duel for winning player to go below 20% health at some point.  

Since this conversation at the time was about attacking what do you mean? That the attacker probably has skill to not care about defense buff and drop the defender? 

On 4/21/2024 at 2:13 PM, Riba.3271 said:

Anyone who doesnt understand importance of 800 stat swings (~30%) damage in 1vs1 is either terrible at gameplay or math.

Dueling scene flourishes when better player wins most duels, server you are in does not matter (SM/SC ownership) and you can duel same person 2 different days regardless of map state

lol, for any attacking Roamer or Havoc, Auras meant nothing. Just meant you weren't set as a Roamer or Havoc. Stop using that as an excuse. Odds were you had different issues and you aren't stating those out for whatever issue. 

We were discussing about 1vs1 duels in that particular comment chain.. It had nothing to do with attackers or defenders, just fair 1vs1 open field fight. I would post you screenshots of locations where people typically duel at and how they were all contained within objective aura zones... But they removed ability to post pictures on forums.

Also, if you can't feel difference of you having bonus 400 stats or enemy having it. So 800 stat swing (800 stats is worth over 20% damage, sometimes 30%). Then you probably weren't fighting same person very often. And you can see how this causes issues for anyone to find good timezone to play at. Of course if you are claiming that 800 stats doesn't affect outcome of 1vs1 fights much then take 2 ascended rings off (~600 stats) from your build and play the game. Doing this your brain will fill out the fact that 600, or 800, stats affects outcome of a fight a lot, and it would be stupidity to have that disparity in 1vs1s.

Edited April 26 by Riba.3271

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

We were discussing about 1vs1 duels in that particular comment chain.. It had nothing to do with attackers or defenders, just fair 1vs1 open field fight. I would post you screenshots of locations where people typically duel at and how they were all contained within objective aura zones... But they removed ability to post pictures on forums.

Also, if you can't feel difference of you having bonus 400 stats or enemy having it. So 800 stat swing (800 stats is worth over 20% damage, sometimes 30%). Then you probably weren't fighting same person very often. And you can see how this causes issues for anyone to find good timezone to play at. Of course if you are claiming that 800 stats doesn't affect outcome of 1vs1 fights much then take 2 ascended rings off (~600 stats) from your build and play the game. Doing this your brain will fill out the fact that 600, or 800, stats affects outcome of a fight a lot, and it would be stupidity to have that disparity in 1vs1s.

Honestly I don't care about duelers. I do enough 1v1s everywhere already, it's part of the game in the norm that you don't need to seek it out, just roam. So if two people want to duel, that's fine, but if they aren't wise enough to choose a location where they aren't impacted by that, honestly that's on them. That shouldn't even be up for consideration on stat buffs. Duelers can go to an NPC area on the maps, guild halls, or EotM depending on the their servers. Stat buffs come into play when we are facing a surprise attack against an undefended location and defenders need time to get to the location. Very few servers these days leave scouts in any structure unless an attacking side is leaving a bread trail pointing out where they are going, and if they do, that's an issue in tactics on the attackers. So lets leave stat buffs in terms of attacking and defending sides, and leave duelers out of the mix when talking buffs in general and the conversations are less muddy.

Edited April 26 by TheGrimm.5624
spelling

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 4/19/2024 at 6:27 PM, Ronin.4501 said:

You mean a GW3 brought to you by the same developers who are currently ruining WvW in GW2??  Would you go buy another car from the same guy who previously sold you a car that broke down as you drove it off the lot?

This is precisely it.  ANet has permanently lost me as a customer (and they have for quite some time now) unless they get their act together on this game.  And that's going to take a lot of effort on their end over a long time to convince me to believe it.

And I sincerely have my doubts they will.  It's been bad for like eight years, and they just keep managing to do worse.

As has been the last few years, I'm otherwise just here for the forum PvP.

Edited April 26 by DeceiverX.8361

[MarkBecks.6453]

On 4/18/2024 at 7:15 PM, Riba.3271 said:

WvW was fixed, not murdered. Try tagging up and organising if your unorganised commanderless cloud cant defend.

Ita about as alive as the wooly mamoth. Bottom of T5 for 3/4 weeks last MU, then we get linked with the server that came second last in T5, yes I can see the brightness and amazed at the intelllect and pure effort put in to make WvW work, its current state should be handed back to NC Soft ASAP

 

[Random dude.5089]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:31 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

I like this talk about efficiency.  Solo capping a camp is a quite efficient if you're only needing to flip it for points or deny enemy the supply and don't care about the supplies yourself (i.e. most efficient would be 6 players with zero supply capping a camp - previously 4 players).

Which is the most efficient number and type of players to defend in specific scenarios?  If your defending boonball is trying to get on home bl and they are asking people to leave so they can get their entire squad through the queue so they can go counter the opponent's map queue attacking the T3 garrison, do you?  How many roamers should stay on the map so they can cap back nearby camps and harass run-backs while the main defense is going on?

Two tags of roughly 20 players each on home bl.  Map is queued - other slots filled with roamers and players getting dailies.  Which is more efficient?  Joining together to defend against Indo attacking garrison or one tag decides they don't want to fight and instead backcap while the other ints into his boonball?

My questions arise from taking a view of the game more like an RTS where you must make decisions about how many of the different types of units you want to build given your resources.  Like, most efficient number of peons in AoEII on a gold or iron mine is something like 5 iirc.

what your saying is totaly irrelevant , if you think only me leaving the map so i can be efficent will do something , your just trying to force your point , leaving one spot aint gonna do anything , every roamer on the map need to leave so ur point can be valid , which will never happen , so why would i switch maps just so one guy from the actual blob defender join , sure in a perfect world i will leave if i knew every other guy thats just handicapping defenses , but it will never happen so there u go  like i said , its not competitive , if i gained points from wining matches everyone will at least try to optimize , so since nobody will leave the map for our blob defenders to join , i try to be efficent my way , and ofc i will join defenses with meta builds and try to cloud , and thats being efficent , but telling me i need to leave the map  is a bit unhinged , wvw is an open world map , and u gain nothing from wining.

[Riba.3271]

18 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

. So lets leave stat buffs in terms of attacking and defending sides, and leave duelers out of the mix when talking buffs in general and the conversations are less muddy.

Well to be fair it was the other person who directed the discussion towards dueling by doubting the effect of 800 stat swings in 1vs1 scene. He was convinced that stats worth 2 ascended rings or 4-5 S-tier sigils surely won't make a difference in a fight. He was the type that thought he would beat people when having no equipment at all.

If that amount of stats has large impact to 1vs1s on open field (>20% damage), it also has large impact to group fights (>20% damage between each player).. Or 1vs1s for camps, which is obviously very important scene since it isn't great for WvW if you always need to be with other players to play it.

18 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Duelers can go to an NPC area on the maps, guild halls, or EotM depending on the their servers.

This would mean whispeng enemy and wasting extra time

This would mean no viewers so no scene

"Closed doors" won't find any new duelers. Obviously if someone duels arond SM, then new players see it and say "OH, THAT IS OPTION TOO, I WANT TO TRY IT". If you are in guild hall, they wont see it. So the scene will slowly die.

This would mean finding next duel takes longer

This means whispering people and having 90% chance they don't want to do it. When someone stands in dueling spot, it is 100% guaranteed to be a duel.

NPC areas are gankzones and EotM dueling spots are extremely far from spawns. The EotM arena is also capped to like 2 duels OR 1 GvG for whole region.

Dueling isn't about "doing it 100% of the time", but doing it during downtime and trying out your builds. The reason why scene was so popular back in the day is because you went to one spot, and you had multiple duels going with multiple viewers. So you had choice... And it only took no time to be fighting.. Other peoples duels inspired you to try out new builds. If  a nice commander or nice fighting activity showed up on map, then you probably stopped dueling. But until then, dueling was by far the most interesting choice.

So being able to be WvW and doing extremely fun competitive activity while waiting for other fun competitiive activities was the perk of dueling scene.

Edited April 27 by Riba.3271

[Zyreva.1078]

I did not stop dueling because of stat auras and neither did any of the other duelists/roamers i know/talked with - and there's quite a few of them, after all dueling used to be my main activity. You are the only one who keeps claiming that and it's simply not true. Guild auras are not beneficial for dueling, but they have never been the deciding factor that led to the decline of the scene.

It was mainly because of awful balance and unfun to play/play against builds as well as all the general gameplay changes that directly or indirectly hurt the roaming/small scale scene.

Edit: To put things into perspective, thanks to broken gear stats, boons and traits as well as different baseline stats, the difference in totals stats between builds can reach over 4k. And that's assuming both builds are using full ascended, food etc. If you factor in disparities in gear quality and food it can get even more crazy. A difference of 400 from guild auras is nothing in relation and not a whole lot more noticeable than rng.

Edited April 27 by Zyreva.1078

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Well to be fair it was the other person who directed the discussion towards dueling by doubting the effect of 800 stat swings in 1vs1 scene. He was convinced that stats worth 2 ascended rings or 4-5 S-tier sigils surely won't make a difference in a fight. He was the type that thought he would beat people when having no equipment at all.

If that amount of stats has large impact to 1vs1s on open field (>20% damage), it also has large impact to group fights (>20% damage between each player).. Or 1vs1s for camps, which is obviously very important scene since it isn't great for WvW if you always need to be with other players to play it.

This would mean whispeng enemy and wasting extra time

This would mean no viewers so no scene

"Closed doors" won't find any new duelers. Obviously if someone duels arond SM, then new players see it and say "OH, THAT IS OPTION TOO, I WANT TO TRY IT". If you are in guild hall, they wont see it. So the scene will slowly die.

This would mean finding next duel takes longer

This means whispering people and having 90% chance they don't want to do it. When someone stands in dueling spot, it is 100% guaranteed to be a duel.

NPC areas are gankzones and EotM dueling spots are extremely far from spawns. The EotM arena is also capped to like 2 duels OR 1 GvG for whole region.

Dueling isn't about "doing it 100% of the time", but doing it during downtime and trying out your builds. The reason why scene was so popular back in the day is because you went to one spot, and you had multiple duels going with multiple viewers. So you had choice... And it only took no time to be fighting.. Other peoples duels inspired you to try out new builds. If  a nice commander or nice fighting activity showed up on map, then you probably stopped dueling. But until then, dueling was by far the most interesting choice.

So being able to be WvW and doing extremely fun competitive activity while waiting for other fun competitiive activities was the perk of dueling scene.

So what you are saying is we errored on the side of ktrains and paper so that some duelers would needn't to be bothered to go to find somewhere that makes sense? Got you. 

[Chaba.5410]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:45 AM, Random dude.5089 said:

what your saying is totaly irrelevant , if you think only me leaving the map so i can be efficent will do something , your just trying to force your point , leaving one spot aint gonna do anything , every roamer on the map need to leave so ur point can be valid , which will never happen , so why would i switch maps just so one guy from the actual blob defender join , sure in a perfect world i will leave if i knew every other guy thats just handicapping defenses , but it will never happen so there u go  like i said , its not competitive , if i gained points from wining matches everyone will at least try to optimize , so since nobody will leave the map for our blob defenders to join , i try to be efficent my way , and ofc i will join defenses with meta builds and try to cloud , and thats being efficent , but telling me i need to leave the map  is a bit unhinged , wvw is an open world map , and u gain nothing from wining.

What do you mean "if I think"?  More it means this is how you are thinking.  I never said every roamer needs to leave the map!

The only point I was pushing was a shift to a view of the game more like an RTS because of your prompt about efficiency.  And I asked questions around that thought.  If every roamer left the map it would be completely contrary to my questioning of how many of different types of units would be efficient to play the map!  So please don't misrepresent what I wrote.

The kind of efficiency you seem to be talking about is only what's efficient for you personally, not your team at all.  Remember, this thread is about how "WvW was murdered" because of "mindlessly rolling over towers and castles without resistance", not about how it's not competitive.  The OP is looking for competitiveness.

[zemiacsik.4590]

On 4/21/2024 at 1:13 PM, Riba.3271 said:

Anyone who doesnt understand importance of 800 stat swings (~30%) damage in 1vs1 is either terrible at gameplay or math.

Dueling scene flourishes when better player wins most duels, server you are in does not matter (SM/SC ownership) and you can duel same person 2 different days regardless of map state

You know.. there is a dedicated arena in Obsidian Sanctum. So instead of crying about stronk auras you can move your flourishing dueling scene there?