Vindicator has far too much evades, blocks, defense to be doing the amount of damage, and aoe damage that it does, what's the philospophy?

[Last Crab.6054]

Perma dodge block weapon evade or triple heal and still pump out 10K garunteed eternity requim and aoe attacks.

But thief have 3 dodge is bad, so make sure we give them exhaustion and everyone has some form of movement control.

🤙

[MysteryDude.1572]

Give me stealth and shadow step on vindi and ind ican trade you my sustain , sure 😄 

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

Perma dodge block weapon evade or triple heal and still pump out 10K garunteed eternity requim and aoe attacks.

But thief have 3 dodge is bad, so make sure we give them exhaustion and everyone has some form of movement control.

🤙

Who did hurt you

[Deadmoose.6594]

Nah he's right, it's a poorly conceived class. Almost 0 downsides but still not as much of a problem as ranger.

[arazoth.7290]

56 minutes ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Nah he's right, it's a poorly conceived class. Almost 0 downsides but still not as much of a problem as ranger.

You never played revenant I guess in general.

I want you to try this challenge, full glass renegade shiro/kalla stance invo/deva traitline shortbow+ staff as weapons in ranked.

Tell me how it went ;).

 

Let me give you the builds to try even what I am using atm =>

Renegade: Kalla stanca/assassin stance

•Devastation traitline: 1-2-2

•Invocation traitline: 3-2-1

•Kalla traitline: 1-3-1

Berserker amulet/ rune of the eagle /relic of the sunless.

Shortbow => sigils of cleansing + energy

Staff => sigils of escape + energy

 

[Deadmoose.6594]

7 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

You never played revenant I guess in general.

I want you to try this challenge, full glass renegade shiro/kalla stance invo/deva traitline shortbow+ staff as weapons in ranked.

Tell me how it went ;).

 

Let me give you the builds to try even what I am using atm =>

Renegade: Kalla stanca/assassin stance

•Devastation traitline: 1-2-2

•Invocation traitline: 3-2-1

•Kalla traitline: 1-3-1

Berserker amulet/ rune of the eagle /relic of the sunless.

Shortbow => sigils of cleansing + energy

Staff => sigils of escape + energy

 

No one cares, and you frequently come across as an elitist so I have nothing to say to you as you're wrong.

[arazoth.7290]

9 minutes ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

No one cares, and you frequently come across as an elitist so I have nothing to say to you as you're wrong.

You come off as neglectent how to something is played without even trying it, and rather coming on here why you think it is

[Deadmoose.6594]

Imagine defending a class that has dodges built in to its very attacks, does massive unblockable aoe damage, and still wears heavy armor

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

What's wild to me is staff warrior got 5 pages of rabid frothing over it being easy and tough to kill, but when it comes to vindi a couple of proponents seem to imply it's close to justified functioning as is.

Is this the complex class? Exiting the frame every two seconds, doing damage when you land (reckless dodge got axed for this), while riposting shadows into legend swap covers any blunders is easier than playing staff warrior.

Not that I'm advocating for nerfs. Yall figure that out.  It's the hypocrisy for me, demanding warrior run lean while other rotations are barely interactive. The cycle continues. 

 

Edited April 20 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Imagine defending a class that has dodges built in to its very attacks, does massive unblockable aoe damage, and still wears heavy armor

you have build in invurnable on your mesmer for long periods of time, but do you see me going on the forums for that?

[bethekey.8314]

Guys...

What if Vindi has become so good at dodging, it can dodge nerfs themselves?

What if they have become too evasive for even CMC?

[Anime.2895]

This is the only good comment in this thread.

[Deadmoose.6594]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

you have build in invurnable on your mesmer for long periods of time, but do you see me going on the forums for that?

yeah but are mesmers ALSO doing damage when they're invulnerable?

(the answer is no)

[arazoth.7290]

4 minutes ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

yeah but are mesmers ALSO doing damage when they're invulnerable?

(the answer is no)

If they pre cast it sorta does.

And revenant only dodge that does damage while dodging is sword skill 3 and staff 5 used to be in pvo too.

The other like hammer 3, vindi evades only hit at the end when they're vulnerable

So no we don't do mostly damage in dodges aside s3 that really counts.

[Shagie.7612]

Don't think it'd be very surprising if they nerf the damage on Hammer 4.

1.8 coefficient on something that can hit 5 targets, gives you a projectile blocker and an aegis stack (and lifesteal projectiles if you attack since guaranteed finishers on hammer 1) on a 1200 range, fairly short CD is pretty crazy. Sometimes its tracking is really whack though.
Same goes for the auto now that it's significantly more usable.

Hammer's meant to be a bursty weapon so it's always gonna hit pretty hard in short windows, but Vindi has the extra damage to supplement it through Death Drop and Archemorus where the other legends and elites don't do it nearly as effectively.

  Very much enjoying all the shocked pikachu faces of all the hammer vindi players now that they're on the chopping block tho lol

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

(reckless dodge got axed for this)

And rightfully so. Dodging offensively for damage is silly. A small hit to remove aegis or blind or (in extremely niche cases) to kill someone who's low is interesting and fine. It's not so much that warriors throw out dodges offensively, they're not exactly a real attack, but it serves a purpose.

Edited April 21 by Shagie.7612

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 4/19/2024 at 8:21 PM, Last Crab.6054 said:

Vindicator has far too much evades, blocks, defense to be doing the amount of damage, and aoe damage that it does, what's the philosophy?

You already know the answer to this question and the answer is:

"Rev is a class favored by the best players and the best players tend to win."

Edited April 21 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[ArthurDent.9538]

 

It's crazy how vindi is allowed to just dominate the meta like this without any hot fixes while poor little staff warrior gets nerf hammered over nothing.

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 4/20/2024 at 11:31 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

What's wild to me is staff warrior got 5 pages of rabid frothing over it being easy and tough to kill

Don't try it, Azure. If I want to kill a vindicator, 2 of my 5 builds can get it done in 1v1.
I want to kill a spellbreaker, it takes 2 people at the very least. It's very much NOT the same. Try playing warrior with the same cleanse as a vindicator and then we talk.

Edited April 22 by Terrorhuz.4695

[arazoth.7290]

59 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Don't try it, Azure. If I want to kill a vindicator, at least 2 of my 5 builds can get it done in 1v1.
I want to kill a spellbreaker, it takes 2 people at the very least. It's very much NOT the same. Try playing warrior with the same cleanse as a vindicator and then we talk.

Indeed, people rather go to the forums instead of trying to counter build certain mechanics 🫠

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

 

It's crazy how vindi is allowed to just dominate the meta like this without any hot fixes while poor little staff warrior gets nerf hammered over nothing.

 

???? link the time stamps where it "dominates" because When I watch semi/finals I don't see them even "dominating" in this video

[Flowki.7194]

18 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

What's wild to me is staff warrior got 5 pages of rabid frothing over it being easy and tough to kill, but when it comes to vindi a couple of proponents seem to imply it's close to justified functioning as is.

Is this the complex class? Exiting the frame every two seconds, doing damage when you land (reckless dodge got axed for this), while riposting shadows into legend swap covers any blunders is easier than playing staff warrior.

Not that I'm advocating for nerfs. Yall figure that out.  It's the hypocrisy for me, demanding warrior run lean while other rotations are barely interactive. The cycle continues. 

 

This is where it pays to stay objective, and not let "forum feuds" cloud judgement. No decent player is going to justify damage on dodge, not me, not anybody else who cares about balance. The rest of hammer would be "ok" then, becuase hammer 2 is highly unreliable (buggy), and should they not change that.. then hammer 4 should remain as is. The refresh, its BS, but its not ranger maces.... so fix both? sure, not just one or the other.

 

That said, please... do not compare the general mechanical ease of warrior to power rev. The average powe rev DOES NOT do what the average staff SPB, condi zerker, Blade or w/e flavour of the month warrior was doing. Staff SPB is still common now, with slightly above average warriors on sides, requiring a 2v1 to kill. I have versed staff spb warriors since the nerf, and you still have to play flawlessly, dodge/block nion all its abilitys to starve it of sustain, just to have a "chance" to kill it, while it does not have to play flawlessly for the same affec. That is outside of just ignoring it (why should you?) and that it is mechanicaly easy to play, hense why every average warrior becomes a massive watse of your time at best, and you have to just give up side at worse. It's bs.

 

Look around when in-game, capture us some videos of the average vindi holding out in 2v1s vs semi-compitant players, and owning side nodes just for existing, will you?

Edited April 21 by Flowki.7194

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You already know the answer to this question and the answer is:

"Rev is a class favored by the best players and the best players tend to win."

I'm looking forward to that ever being said about warrior.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Don't try it, Azure. If I want to kill a vindicator, 2 of my 5 builds can get it done in 1v1.
I want to kill a spellbreaker, it takes 2 people at the very least. It's very much NOT the same. Try playing warrior with the same cleanse as a vindicator and then we talk.

But I will try it Terrorhuz~

Even setting aside that demon queen builds could push spellbreaker as long as you didn't get hit by FC or a burst (both of which weren't issues resolved by staff), and that hammer vindi can be built as a bunker:

Non interactive [unless you have a specific build] is just as much of a point of contention as non interactive [unless you rotate a certain way].

Again, no problems with vindi as it is right now.  I just dislike seeing weapons that help round out the spec denominations that don't see play get nerf brigaded for things a half dozen other specs currently do. Other specs were improved by staff. Sure, the means by which they impact game flow are different, but their end result on map influence is similar.

Quote

it takes 2 people at the very least.

Its two people at the most. Bad and average spellbreakers lose 1v1, I've beaten several at sides and only had to ignore noteworthy ones on daredevil. It never took more than 2 competent people to push them. 

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

No decent player is going to justify damage on dodge, not me, not anybody else who cares about balance. The rest of hammer would be "ok" then, becuase hammer 2 is highly unreliable (buggy), and should they not change that.. then hammer 4 should remain as is. The refresh, its BS, but its not ranger maces.... so fix both? sure, not just one or the other.

Appreciated.

Quote

That said, please... do not compare the general mechanical ease of warrior to power rev. The average powe rev DOES NOT do what the average staff SPB, condi zerker, Blade or w/e flavour of the month warrior was doing.

The average power rev casts spear and scavenger burst from range, harasses you with coalescence and autos through projectile hate and area denial from drop the hammer until you get close, then camps death drop and phase smash until weapon swap is mandatory. 

The button spread may be more complex, but the loop is just as simple as spellbreakers, if not more so, because vindi can play high dps at range, up close, and move to low targets instantly if their off legend is shiro. 

So again I ask, is this the complex class? Cause i will gladly pick up 10 extra buttons if it mitigates the whine with a vineer of "earned through mastery".

People were mad warrior stood on point but they don't really have much else to do but that, even now.  Meanwhile:

 

Edited April 21 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

32 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

But I will try it Terrorhuz~

Even setting aside that demon queen builds could push spellbreaker as long as you didn't get hit by FC or a burst (both of which weren't issues resolved by staff), and that hammer vindi can be built as a bunker:

Non interactive [unless you have a specific build] is just as much of a point of contention as non interactive [unless you rotate a certain way].

Again, no problems with vindi as it is right now.  I just dislike seeing weapons that help round out the spec denominations that don't see play get nerf brigaded for things a half dozen other specs currently do. Other specs were improved by staff. Sure, the means by which they impact game flow are different, but their end result on map influence is similar.

Its two people at the most. Bad and average spellbreakers lose 1v1, I've beaten several at sides and only had to ignore noteworthy ones on daredevil. It never took more than 2 competent people to push them. 

Appreciated.

The average power rev casts spear and scavenger burst from range, harasses you with coalescence and autos through projectile hate and area denial from drop the hammer until you get close, then camps death drop and phase smash until weapon swap is mandatory. 

The button spread may be more complex, but the loop is just as simple as spellbreakers, if not more so, because vindi can play high dps at range, up close, and move to low targets instantly if their off legend is shiro. 

So again I ask, is this the complex class? Cause i will gladly pick up 10 extra buttons if it mitigates the whine with a vineer of "earned through mastery".

People were mad warrior stood on point but they don't really have much else to do but that, even now.  Meanwhile:

 

I think you under apreciate the way vindi has to cleanse/heal, that third bar makes all the difference in drawing out mistakes from less experianced vindis. Don't heal up at the right time, you never recover under pressure, swap to heal/cleanse wrong time, you lose pressure. The same applies with its mobility, if you use it at the wrong time, you starve energy, or have to go into a legend you might not want to be in. It is half way between warrior and ele in terms of those choices and punishments for the wrong choice. Additionally, there is a constant balance between using energy for dps, and storing energy for sustain/stun breaks, with HUGE punishment for messing that balance up, it is by far the biggest learning curve and source of "error" in doing well on rev in general. If warrior had something like that to contend with (it could stall out for being too aggressive), I would be alot happier fighting the class, it is simply unpunishable most of the time because it lacks those sorts of mechanics. Cata even has this, if you get too greedy with DPS jades, you then starve yourself of water sustain jade.

 

Vindi has both melee and range dps @1200, sure, as do many specs, some with more (ranger/DH) some with less (any scepter spec), and a number of specs that far more reliably pump out burst (ele/untamed/slb/mesmer, etc). Warrior is mostly limited to melee range damage, but that is a limitation, not a difficulty. That is why I don't have a problem with warrior mobility, its simply the easy and reliable sustain access that makes it very unlikely to push mistakes from a half decent warrior:  So just avoid them? becuase the chance of playing flawlessly to starve their sustain is unreliable.. and they can still just los abuse if you get the upper hand.

 

For context, I am not talking about p1+ vs p1+ here, I can't speak of that level. I think I always made it clear that I speak from the balance perspective of around g1-g3. You can balance for mid and top level play, it is a mistake to only balance for top play. That results in specs like hammer cata being unplayable at G1-3, becuase the skill floor is way to high compared to multiple other specs at that range. Increase skill floors of more forgiving specs, or reduce skill floors of more difficult specs, I don't really care which.. as either way would increase spec diversity, as more specs would be more equally competitive for the same skill/effort input.

Edited April 21 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

hey quick question why does vindicator have more damage, more mobility (especially in ability to disengage), more sustain, more condi cleanse, and just generally infinity more buttons to respond to things than any other rev builds

where is its weakness relative to the rest of the class, not in numbers necessarily, but in the design of where it excels and where it struggles

what happened to power budgets and tickets

 

also applicable to a bunch of other builds both within their class and in comparison in the same roles

Edited April 22 by Shagie.7612