Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Andifulated.3482 said: I'd rather check it before a fight than assume they're fine, go into the fight, and have them under perform or cause problems because they refused to communicate what gear they had. Sure you would ... because you think someone's gear is going to be the problem. That's my point entirely ... a gear check shouldn't be used to do the thing you want to do because gear isn't the primary deciding factor in being successful in group content. Sure if someone is screwing up a raid, you boot them. It's an appropriate response. That response is not appropriate just because someone in your team isn't geared how you want them to be. Again, if you want to police teammates at that level, there are ways to do that ... just not the way you want. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum Moderator.3419 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Hello Everyone, Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid being rude to other players. I've removed some posts. Regards. 1 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said: Sure you would ... because you think someone's gear is going to be the problem. That's my point entirely ... a gear check shouldn't be used to do the thing you want to do because gear isn't the primary deciding factor in being successful in group content. Sure if someone is screwing up a raid, you boot them. It's an appropriate response. That response is not appropriate just because someone in your team isn't geared how you want them to be. Again, if you want to police teammates at that level, there are ways to do that ... just not the way you want. There are quite a few instances where gear can be the problem. Why someone's not hitting the DPS thresholds for certain skips; This is common especially if a person plays multiple game modes Why someone keeps pulling aggro; Did you know that the enemy Sauls in the Deimos fight target the player with the highest precision? Why someone's healing is less than it should be; Those healing power modifiers are no joke and can mean the difference between being able to burst heal through certain mechanics or not. Why the boon or condition duration is lower than it should be; nothing like having 20% quickness uptime from the person who joined on quickness or conditions that barely last on the boss. I'd rather tell them before the fight so they can fix their gear than to find out during the fight and have to waste more time resetting the fight then tell them to fix their gear. That adds up throughout the clears. It also removes the variable of gear from the equation if they still turn out to be under-performing even with the correct stat allocation and build. The way I see it, the only people who lose with gear checking are the people who join PuGs with random builds and gear for testing their new build instead of doing that with friends, and that's not really a loss. 28 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: We could that in instanced content , but we ask 2.5 minor things : a) Create an official dps addon that can be used only in the instances . (As Muluk took 9 noobies in the hardest boss , and they dealt 5k-6k dps, and beat it , it showed that peopledon't need increase their dps , or listen to people telling them "you aint pulling you weight and you are draggin down the team. Or increase our dps because you are playing in team mode") b) Create an OW Legendary set (or reduce the WvW ones) . No apparent reason b2) Muluk should becomes in the "gray zone" and not try to "brighe the 2 communities" . We need for people to listen him in the time needed 😛 To address your a) here. Different groups have different goals. To just clear the content once, 5k to 6k DPS isn't an issue. To do repeated clears and more advanced skips (And get weekly CMs on raids / Daily CMs on fractals), you'll need to do at least twice that DPS and that's where doing 5k DPS (About the same as your standard optimized support healer), is definitely not pulling your weight. Edited January 25, 2023 by Andifulated.3482 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Andifulated.3482 said: I'd rather tell them before the fight so they can fix their gear than to find out during the fight and have to waste more time resetting the fight then tell them to fix their gear. That adds up throughout the clears. It also removes the variable of gear from the equation if they still turn out to be under-performing even with the correct stat allocation and build. Sure ... and you can do that now, just not by gear checking in PUGs. So what's happening here is that people don't want to organize their teams with their strict requirements outside of PUG teams. A subset of players that lack the willingness to do something is not a reason to for Anet to implement a feature for them. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Sure ... and you can do that now, just not by gear checking in PUGs. So what's happening here is that people don't want to organize their teams with their strict requirements outside of PUG teams. A subset of players that lack the willingness to do something is not a reason to for Anet to implement a feature for them. In my time playing in dungeons, then fractals, then raids, and finally strikes missions, people don't change their gear at all even when requested and sometimes outright lie that they did. There's also the sort that just never talk, ever. And you can't tell me that there's never been an instance where a static is down one or two players and still wants to clear so they put up an LFG for specific roles. That'd just be disingenuous. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Andifulated.3482 said: In my time playing in dungeons, then fractals, then raids, and finally strikes missions, people don't change their gear at all even when requested and sometimes outright lie that they did. There's also the sort that just never talk, ever. Nor should they need to change their gear because you ask them too. Again, if you want to police people's gear that you team with, there is already a way to do that ... it's just not the way you want it to work. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krzysztof.5973 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, robertthebard.8150 said: Which is exactly my point, it's not the tool, but how it will be used. Note: I didn't say how it might be used, but how it will be used, and that's not a typo, or a guess. It's a statement of fact based on about 7 years of progression raiding. I retired from raiding before I ever even tried this game, and I know that gear checks will be abused in all content, not just instanced content. All one has to do is read threads like this one to pick out who those players are. They're players that will claim "daft argument" about theory-crafting builds for the meta, while copy/pasting one of those builds to use. It's people that will jump to "everyone will do that" when the person they quoted didn't say anything of the sort. I did say a lot of people, and I did say it was more likely to be the rule than the exception, but that's a far cry from "everyone". That's a strawman invented to make arguing against the position easier. You see, the point was, someone that's making the builds for the meta has a much higher knowledge of how the game systems work than someone who copy/pastes those builds. I guess you can run with "daft argument", if you want to dismiss the knowledge of the people that create the builds that a majority of the population use for group content, but, if it's so daft, why are those builds not only being used, but held up as the "standard"? So, this system can be abused through a lack of solid foundational knowledge of the game, as much as "you're not using what my build guy says you need to use". Ah yes the classic "I don't raid in this game, but I'm very opinionated". 10 hours ago, robertthebard.8150 said: So, "Nobody forces you to do anything, until they do."? What happens when someone only knows one or two "acceptable" builds, and is in charge of deciding who is or isn't allowed in the group? We saw an example of that earlier in the thread with "If you're dps you should be 'zerkers or viper", meaning someone playing a class that gets diminishing returns from that set, and would be better served stacking something else on top of that would be booted, even though they're playing the class as described by the people that actually make builds, as opposed to the people that simply copy/paste what someone else told them to use, and then tries to lead a raid group. The point was not to run defensive stats on a dps build, not going all the way with viper's on condi build. You could show us your incredible build for instanced content with defensive stats that outperforms the "meta" builds. Let's not rub ourselves off with this idea of "making your own" build for everything. We are not on path of exile-level of character building. 90% of your build should match the "meta" build if you want max dps output. And when people talk about kicking for bad gear it literally means the "hi dps" players running more toughness than the tank. It ain't WoW. The situation is different since we do not have gear treadmill over here. Edited January 25, 2023 by Krzysztof.5973 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: because gear isn't the primary deciding factor It doesn't have to be THE primary deciding factor if it is a significant determining factor...which can readily be the case. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 22 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Nor should they need to change their gear because you ask them too. Again, if you want to police people's gear that you team with, there is already a way to do that ... it's just not the way you want it to work. Uh, what? You join a group, you play by their rules. A gear check makes it so people have to be honest when they state their role on join and can't just try to sneak in using the random stuff they found in world. 1 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 15 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: It doesn't have to be THE primary deciding factor if it is a significant determining factor...which can readily be the case. Great ... if gear is how people want to choose team mates, they have a way to do that without a gearchecker. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Andifulated.3482 said: Uh, what? You join a group, you play by their rules. A gear check makes it so people have to be honest when they state their role on join and can't just try to sneak in using the random stuff they found in world. OK ... but that doesn't change what I said. If you want to restrict who you team with based on their gear, you can already do that without a gearchecker outside of a PUG approach to teaming. Again, Anet doesn't need to implement a gearcheck feature for the people that want to restrict who they team with just because they want the convenience of a PUG teambuilding method. The bottomline is that if you are being that restrictive, the PUG isn't the way you should be building a team in the first place. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoftFootpaws.9134 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Parpage.9867 said: Yeah that's because they have no clue of what they are doing and that's another issue, but if you're good why are you even using celestial reaper in the first place for instanced content? Because I can, and I bet most people can't. They'd probably take it in and do 15k DPS or something. I once did a 250k hit on Bladesworn and got told "that's imossible, Bladesworn only does 100k" by other players. Its a bad idea to assume that people know the game. This includes group leaders; nothing makes someone good at everything, knowledgeable about everything, and so on, and a gearcheck just exploits this in potentially very bad ways. Players aren't omniscent, and shouldn't be holding weapons, so to speak. Edited January 25, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einsof.1457 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 35 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Nor should they need to change their gear because you ask them too. Again, if you want to police people's gear that you team with, there is already a way to do that ... it's just not the way you want it to work. You perfectly demonstrate the real toxicity of gw2. It's not the people who try to play well, it's the people who not only refuse to, but expect others to put in extra effort for them. 1 2 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said: You perfectly demonstrate the real toxicity of gw2. It's not the people who try to play well, it's the people who not only refuse to, but expect others to put in extra effort for them. Call it whatever you like, but it's not a mistake that GW2 is designed in a way that 'the real toxicity' as you call it ... is the intended approach to playing it. It's so hard for you to admit that the game is designed so people don't have to play optimal builds and gear in instanced content even after this many years it works this way? That's sad. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 5 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einsof.1457 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Call it whatever you like, but it's not a mistake that GW2 is designed in a way that 'the real toxicity' as you call it ... is the intended approach to playing it. It's so hard for you to admit that the game is designed so people don't have to play optimal builds and gear in instanced content even after this many years it works this way? That's sad. The game is designed for people to work together. Not to leach off each other. 3 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) Just now, Einsof.1457 said: The game is designed for people to work together. Not to leach off each other. OK ... and they can do that without a gearchecker or conforming to any players idea of what is optimal gear/comps either. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einsof.1457 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Just now, Obtena.7952 said: OK ... and they can do that without a gearchecker. Yeah, they can. But it still would be a better experience with the ability to gear check. 1 2 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Just now, Einsof.1457 said: Yeah, they can. But it still would be a better experience with the ability to gear check. For you maybe ... not for many others. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einsof.1457 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Just now, Obtena.7952 said: For you maybe ... not for many others. Not for those who seek to troll and get carried you mean? 4 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said: Not for those who seek to troll and get carried you mean? Call it what you like ... but you should really think about why 10 years in, this game doesn't have a gear checker instead of trying to insult people for not playing they way you think they should. Probably would help if you don't assume the game is missing a feature just because it doesn't work the way you want. Pretty obvious that the fact GW2 doesn't have this feature is an indication that Anet doesn't want it to work in the way you think it should. Again, if you don't want to team with people you have to carry or troll you, you don't have to. Just make the choices you need to do that. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 5 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einsof.1457 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Call it what you like ... but you should really think about why 10 years in, this game doesn't have a gear checker instead of trying to insult people for not playing they way you think they should. Probably would help if you don't assume the game is missing a feature just because it doesn't work the way you want. Pretty obvious that the fact GW2 doesn't have this feature is an indication that Anet doesn't want it to work in the way you think it should. Again, if you don't want to team with people you have to carry or troll you, you don't have to. Just make the choices you need to do that. It's worse for the game to have to try to coach people who are lying to you about their build/gear/skill level than it is to just see it at a glance. Maybe this is why people quit raids after they get their legendary stuff? Too many toxic liars looking for a carry. 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said: It's worse for the game to have to try to coach people who are lying to you about their build/gear/skill level than it is to just see it at a glance. Maybe this is why people quit raids after they get their legendary stuff? Too many toxic liars looking for a carry. No, it's just worse for people that want to dictate to others how to play. But again ... if you don't want to carry people, you don't have to. It just depends on how you create your teams. Sad part is that you are trying to paint the picture that it's a terrible thing for the game that you can't harass or abuse players with a feature that would force your 'advice' on on others on how to play the game to benefit ... YOU. Yeah, we are SOO hard done by that players who force their ideas on others under the ruse that it's 'good for them' don't have these features. Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 6 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said: Great ... if gear is how people want to choose team mates, they have a way to do that without a gearchecker. Have you ever pinged stat selectable gear before? It doesn't show the stats on it. This is also a problem for legendary gear. 1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said: Call it whatever you like, but it's not a mistake that GW2 is designed in a way that 'the real toxicity' as you call it ... is the intended approach to playing it. It's so hard for you to admit that the game is designed so people don't have to play optimal builds and gear in instanced content even after this many years it works this way? That's sad. This game is designed around cooperative play. Cooperation is the process of working together to achieve the same thing and being compliant with requests to fit the group to meet that goal or goals. 1 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 42 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: No, it's just worse for people that want to dictate to others how to play. But again ... if you don't want to carry people, you don't have to. It just depends on how you create your teams. Sad part is that you are trying to paint the picture that it's a terrible thing for the game that you can't harass or abuse players with a feature that would force your 'advice' on on others on how to play the game to benefit ... YOU. Yeah, we are SOO hard done by that players who force their ideas on others under the ruse that it's 'good for them' don't have these features. Why is it suddenly about harassment? Isn't it equally terrible to purposefully waste the time of 4 to 9 other persons because that specific player can't be honest about their build and skill level? 2 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Andifulated.3482 said: This game is designed around cooperative play. Cooperation is the process of working together to achieve the same thing and being compliant with requests to fit the group to meet that goal or goals. Yes it is ... and it's NEVER needed a gearcheck to do that in the past ... so it's NOT a reason to add it now. Don't confuse 'co-operation' with "you play how I tell you or you get kicked". Edited January 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952 6 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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