Why slot Chilling Fog?

[misterman.1530]

The more I look into Chilling Fog, the less I see any reason to slot it as a tactic. If you use it against the typical Boonball meta which would, I assume, have classes passively converting conditions into boons, doesn't that mean that you are giving the blob free alacrity (since Chill converts to Alacrity)?

What's the upside of Chilling Fog?

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

Chilling Fog should have been implemented as a chill effect that was not a boon.   It's not too late to fix it.

[Chaba.5410]

17 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

What's the upside of Chilling Fog?

The only upside is it works well against groups that don't have coordinated condition cleanse/conversion.  Too many pugs tend to not understand when to use it though.

I like Arya's idea, although I can imagine complaints about no counterplay.

I always was a fan of Minor Supply Drop instead because supply is far more important and now even more so with the 50% wall repair change.

[misterman.1530]

4 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

Chilling Fog should have been implemented as a chill effect that was not a boon.   It's not too late to fix it.

I agree. Something that can't be converted. That would work. It would make it somewhat useful.

[misterman.1530]

1 minute ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The only upside is it works well against groups that don't have coordinated condition cleanse/conversion.  Too many pugs tend to not understand when to use it though.

I like Arya's idea, although I can imagine complaints about no counterplay.

I always was a fan of Minor Supply Drop instead because supply is far more important and now even more so with the 50% wall repair change.

My thoughts exactly. Sup Drop is more useful now than ever - especially when catas/trebs can hit more than one wall at a time. Need all the supply we can get! 🙂

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, misterman.1530 said:

My thoughts exactly. Sup Drop is more useful now than ever - especially when catas/trebs can hit more than one wall at a time. Need all the supply we can get! 🙂

My feedback to Anet was that Minor Supply Drop amount should be increased in light of the 50% wall repair change.  Also undo the nerf to keep total supply amounts.

Supply is the real currency of offense/defense balance.

[urd.8306]

Add:
No boon generation inside the fog

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Convert the Chill into alacrity. 👈🧠

[Triptaminas.4789]

Resistance spam made it obsolete. If your boonball ain't running with perma resistance uptime capability u doing smtg wrong. 

[misterman.1530]

10 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Resistance spam made it obsolete. If your boonball ain't running with perma resistance uptime capability u doing smtg wrong. 

Exactly. It really makes no sense to use Chilling Fog. I see it being slotted as a tactic all the time. It's almost as bad as Siege Dampener. I mean, I've gotten into the habit of slotting EWP instead of that dog's breakfast.

I've been playing since almost launch (11+ years) and  I've seen it used effectively a few times - but not since the boon ball meta with resistances and conversions. In those battles, it doesn't even slow the enemy down.

[Triptaminas.4789]

7 minutes ago, misterman.1530 said:

Exactly. It really makes no sense to use Chilling Fog. I see it being slotted as a tactic all the time. It's almost as bad as Siege Dampener. I mean, I've gotten into the habit of slotting EWP instead of that dog's breakfast.

I've been playing since almost launch (11+ years) and  I've seen it used effectively a few times - but not since the boon ball meta with resistances and conversions. In those battles, it doesn't even slow the enemy down.

Yeah it does nothing, it's minor inconvenience if used in lord room. 

It can somewhat work before they enter lordroom, like on break of outer, if zerg is not running 4 supports per subgroup they gonna wait it out stacked, which delays the cap. 

It adds some pressure but it's surely outdated, all the tactics are. The power creep that plagued player characters was completely non existant in guards, Lords, tactics, and gates, if anything said things got nerfed.

[Riba.3271]

Chilling fog isn't that great in combat against coordinated blobs, but it does provide advantage of slowing enemy down when they use siege or move from 1 point to another. So lets say outer gate goes down, and you pull it, then the enemy blob will be slowed moving to inner gate. It only takes 1 enemy cleanser or player to be absent minded  to slow them down several dozen seconds.

Obviously it is also deadly to smaller groups. Which is much more than a supply drop can do in such a situation.

 

I would always slot Chilling Fog as it is annoying for enemies and gives me 1 more tool to use. I would have to use 500+ supplies inside my tower/keep first to get any benefit from supply drop. Issue isn't that chilling fog is weak but how you use it.

Edited May 6 by Riba.3271

[Custodio.6134]

While it is a great tool to slow the enemy down before reaching lord (which is especially helpful if you already have a group already heading to defend), it is ALSO a great tool if your defenders are already there. 

Chilling fog will inevitably force the enemy to burn important cleanse and/or resistance (which is then defensive utility that is on cooldown for the fight). So no matter if it is before they reach lord, or if they are already on it, in both cases it forces them into the decision of "getting slowed down vs burning cleanse/cd's". So the important part is: for what purpose do you pull it, and WHEN is the correct time to achieve that purpose. 

You basically have to evaluate between "slowing the enemy down on the way to lord" and "forcing cooldowns right before a fight in order to wipe them out". 

Of course, slowing the enemy down is nothing that will equalize a numbers-disadvantage. But it at least gives your team SOME time to gather people to defend. And cleanse being on cooldown right before a fight can be a massive difference-maker

[Jeydra.4386]

With questions like this you need to compare with the alternative(s). In this case the only alternative is supply drop, which is great if you're repairing the objective after killing the enemy zerg, but doesn't help you kill the enemy zerg in the first place.

With supply drop you can build two more ACs, which is OK if you're doing it before the wall/gate goes down. But it's still not great, because ACs don't actually kill the enemy zerg - they only repel them. To kill the enemy zerg you still need a zerg of your own. Besides if your zerg is not there when the objective gets attacked, then there's a good chance the wall/gate goes down before you can build the ACs, in which case supply drop does nothing. You need to build the ACs before the objective gets attacked, but if you're doing that, you can also run supply from camps.

So given that the alternative doesn't do much either, why not slot Chilling Fog? Sure, Chilling Fog might not do much, but it still does something.

"you are giving the blob free alacrity" is not the right way to think about it. Yes condition cleanse exists, but it doesn't mean you should stop using conditions entirely. If you don't overload their condition cleanse, they're probably not dying anyway.

[misterman.1530]

21 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

With questions like this you need to compare with the alternative(s). In this case the only alternative is supply drop, which is great if you're repairing the objective after killing the enemy zerg, but doesn't help you kill the enemy zerg in the first place.

With supply drop you can build two more ACs, which is OK if you're doing it before the wall/gate goes down. But it's still not great, because ACs don't actually kill the enemy zerg - they only repel them. To kill the enemy zerg you still need a zerg of your own. Besides if your zerg is not there when the objective gets attacked, then there's a good chance the wall/gate goes down before you can build the ACs, in which case supply drop does nothing. You need to build the ACs before the objective gets attacked, but if you're doing that, you can also run supply from camps.

So given that the alternative doesn't do much either, why not slot Chilling Fog? Sure, Chilling Fog might not do much, but it still does something.

"you are giving the blob free alacrity" is not the right way to think about it. Yes condition cleanse exists, but it doesn't mean you should stop using conditions entirely. If you don't overload their condition cleanse, they're probably not dying anyway.

Nah, you can get 2 ballis from Sup drop. They help. Plus is helps building defensive siege. What, in your opinion, does Chilling Fog do but give the blob alacrity (when they convert the condition)?

[Grave.5683]

chilling fog falls into the same category as most condi nowadays,if you are fighting a boonblob it is useless compared to minor supply drop which you can build siege or use disruptors or supply traps.

[T G.7496]

It's decorative.

[Custodio.6134]

9 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

you are giving the blob free alacrity" is not the right way to think about it. Yes condition cleanse exists, but it doesn't mean you should stop using conditions entirely. If you don't overload their condition cleanse, they're probably not dying anyway.

Exactly. Additionally condition convert (especially purity of purpose) got nerfed quite a bit a while ago, and on top of that renegade is becoming a thing recently. So not only is that conversion not a big deal anymore, alacrity is atm a thing in many comps either way

[ArchonWing.9480]

No idea

Must be the same reason people build catapults against rams when a treb would acutally destroy the rams, instead of just forcing enemy ram users to move 5 inches back.

Or stand on walls thinking they're doing something, even though dying 30x in an hour implies otherwise.

See a lot of people don't realize not all defenders are the same. Some actually care about defending and know how to; the others just inside because they can't survive outside of the walls and are just leeches trying to pretend to be useful as they afk 90% of the time. Though that's still better than the wall runners I guess but there is significant overlap

Edited May 7 by ArchonWing.9480

[Aeolus.3615]

On 5/6/2024 at 3:00 AM, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

Chilling Fog should have been implemented as a chill effect that was not a boon.   It's not too late to fix it.

How dare you to touch a Zerg!?

[Jeydra.4386]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:19 AM, misterman.1530 said:

Nah, you can get 2 ballis from Sup drop. They help. Plus is helps building defensive siege. What, in your opinion, does Chilling Fog do but give the blob alacrity (when they convert the condition)?

Sure, but do the 2 ballistae have an impact? Like, how often are the two ballistae the difference maker between holding the objective and not?

As for Chilling Fog, see what I wrote.

"you are giving the blob free alacrity" is not the right way to think about it. Yes condition cleanse exists, but it doesn't mean you should stop using conditions entirely. If you don't overload their condition cleanse, they're probably not dying anyway.

Do you use skills like Frozen Ground or Chillblains? Those skills apply Chilled too, aka apply alacrity once they're converted. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Sure, but do the 2 ballistae have an impact? Like, how often are the two ballistae the difference maker between holding the objective and not?

As for Chilling Fog, see what I wrote.

"you are giving the blob free alacrity" is not the right way to think about it. Yes condition cleanse exists, but it doesn't mean you should stop using conditions entirely. If you don't overload their condition cleanse, they're probably not dying anyway.

Do you use skills like Frozen Ground or Chillblains? Those skills apply Chilled too, aka apply alacrity once they're converted. 

Even 1 ballista can make a difference. If you flash build it behind them, you can often take out enemy catapults before they can even reach. 2 can outright force them to leave. Granted you need 2+ people to flash build it.

Also at the very least you force them to move to kill the ballista. That is already >>>> chilling fog.

Finally you can  reach a critical mass of ballistae that can actually present a threat which is good if the keep is already low on supply. If you have 1 ballista this becomes 3 which is better than 1 ballista + fog.

Furthermore, Fog can be pulled at bad times by people that don't know any better while ballistas are just pressing some buttons

 

Edited May 10 by ArchonWing.9480

[Jeydra.4386]

On 5/10/2024 at 5:50 AM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Even 1 ballista can make a difference. If you flash build it behind them, you can often take out enemy catapults before they can even reach. 2 can outright force them to leave. Granted you need 2+ people to flash build it.

Also at the very least you force them to move to kill the ballista. That is already >>>> chilling fog.

Finally you can  reach a critical mass of ballistae that can actually present a threat which is good if the keep is already low on supply. If you have 1 ballista this becomes 3 which is better than 1 ballista + fog.

Furthermore, Fog can be pulled at bad times by people that don't know any better while ballistas are just pressing some buttons

 

1) Catapults have this skill which block ballista shots. If they have enough catapults you cannot do damage, let alone take them out. (I don't understand what "before they can even reach" means here.)
2) If they have 40 people and you have 10, it's trivial for them to move to kill your ballista. If they have 40 people and you have 40, then the ballista is still largely irrelevant.
3) Or they can set up siege at a spot where your ballistae cannot hit.
4) If you argue that Fog can be pulled at bad times, then one could also that ballistae can be manned "at bad times" (like when they cannot hit the siege) and the people manning them get pulled off walls and die.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

1) Catapults have this skill which block ballista shots. If they have enough catapults you cannot do damage, let alone take them out. (I don't understand what "before they can even reach" means here.)

Not every attack is a large group making that many catapults. And a lot of attacks are a smaller group that opens up the wall so a larger group can come in. Ballis can also destroy catas that are being buiilt.

2 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

2) If they have 40 people and you have 10, it's trivial for them to move to kill your ballista. If they have 40 people and you have 40, then the ballista is still largely irrelevant.

40 vs 10 is irrelevant, it's not anything else matters there. 40 vs 40 can make a difference if your group of 40 can stalemate  the other 40, but can't kill them or push to kill their siege (because you know, numbers are even). If you destroy their siege, they'll probably leave.   not to mention usually I don't think 40 people are sitting around defending a keep and they need defenders to buy time.

2 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

3) Or they can set up siege at a spot where your ballistae cannot hit.

That still limits where they can attack.

2 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

4) If you argue that Fog can be pulled at bad times, then one could also that ballistae can be manned "at bad times" (like when they cannot hit the siege) and the people manning them get pulled off walls and die.

Yea, siege doesn't do anything if the players on them are afk I guess. But even so chilling fog has a much longer cooldown.

Of course, there are certainly other things you could spend the 100 supply on too that aren't ballistas.

Edited May 11 by ArchonWing.9480

[Jeydra.4386]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Not every attack is a large group making that many catapults.

That is the key issue. If they have 10 and you have 5, then your Ballista can actually matter.

But for the purpose of this question: can you predict whether your Ballista will actually matter before you slot the tactic?