Fighting thief feels like you're fighting a hacker

[MementoMortis.4258]

On 5/14/2024 at 9:42 AM, Kyraios.8954 said:

Title says it all. 

Constant blinks, stealth, insane damage, mobility, blinds, condis. Why do they need all of this? They don't even have the lowest health pool in the game. The class in general is just broken. 

There is no counterplay to a good thief. 

Agree 100%. If you outplay a good thief, they just run away. Then, typically, come RIGHT back 10 seconds later for 12K Backstab ---> Cloak and Dagger---Stealth Finisher.  Good times. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

27 minutes ago, MementoMortis.4258 said:

 come RIGHT back 10 seconds later for 12K Backstab 

I need to know the build that enables 12k backstabs for research

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 5/14/2024 at 1:31 PM, Zekent.3652 said:

Why? don't you like getting hit by a 8k-10k backstab out of stealth?

Skill issue

Thief has no dmg, buff

This but unironically, because the builds that would take 8-10k* out of stealth are almost certainly built to blow up anyone they look at. 

Which do you want? To get blown up by a shatter mes or for that mes to be handled?

Edited May 15 by Azure The Heartless.3261
*citation needed

[Kuya.6495]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Right, but how do you die to thief on Guard? 

That's easy:

See thief>port to thief>thief ports away>you port again>they go stealth>you reconsider your life choices>thief attacks you>you port to thief>thief ports away>...

And repeat. 

If it's a daredevil or core thief, you have a chance since they actually need to get close to you to do damage. If it's a deadeye, leave and hope it doesn't chase you because it's pointless to fight it if it is running rifle.

Edited May 15 by Kuya.6495

[Saiyan.1704]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Right, but how do you die to thief on Guard? 

I always find a way. Always.

[Daishi.6027]

I said since release, if we want a proper, healthy, competitive game, the core intentional design should have always been:
Wiff  on backstab burst = Can't escape; likely death without needing to get hit from a burst combo. Thief should have 0 tools that go through blocks, and no blinds. unless it lands the initial burst. A well timed counter against their stealth attack should spell the end. Meanwhile if it lands it's burst, it should be richer-get-richer to a kill; so long as the stealth burst window is clear enough to play around, this would be fair.

As for blinking in and out of targets, that's an issue with pathing being the counter play. You should get "no path to target" if it's through a wall; game needs strict Line of Sight checks and treat "target" teleports like a line ranged attack.

Thief has always been free to escape from being punished, then come back and try again when an opponent is waiting on long cooldowns.

Among several other really bad decisions, this anti-competitive design is part of is why the game never became a real competitive game anyone actually cares about.

Edited May 17 by Daishi.6027

[Burnfall.9573]

On 5/14/2024 at 11:25 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You might not be that far off.  Because of all their shadowsteps and stealth, thieves and mesmers are the favorites of hackers.  All their innate skills make it easy to hide all of the hacks they're using.  Thieves especially, due to their initiative system.  

This is why,, no amount of marketing Anet does and amount of paid streamers marketing of the game promotes 

It always ends of backfiring because years and years of exceptions being made to allow Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic to exploit the game, to continue creating a Hostile Toxic experience for the player base including future potential players and lastly, to continue being exempted of any fair counteractive balancing in Balance patches.

13 years and not a single chance to give the community and the playerbase a fair chance of counterplay risk taking measurements in the game design??

Anet, what you are willing to tollerate, is setting the tone of your company gaming culture. 

 

Edited May 17 by Burnfall.9573

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

People been trying to kill thief for years unsuccessfully by trying to argue they shouldn't be allowed to do thief things

Take the hint 💀

Anet is laughing at y'all.

Quote

• Lowered the number of thieves in PvP only.

 

Edited May 17 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

On 5/15/2024 at 3:47 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Right, but how do you die to thief on Guard? 

you find a theif dead eye named ink or washie or Elysium or myrkko or.....

[Szymon.5369]

On 5/15/2024 at 3:35 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

I think with thief it is more about the fundementally 1 sided encounter. It doesnt matter if thief was meta, great, good or garbedge, its mechanics are annoying to fight. Stealth classes are suppose to be sneaky and elusive sure.. but that doesn't justify thiefs obnoxious low risk mechanics. Mesmer is very much in that same catigory for its own reasons.

Agreed, in other games stealth is usually interactive to some degree - there is a generic way to detect the stealthed dude by proximity or outline, a way to knock them out of stealth by doing damage or something, but GW2 "stealth" is other games' "invisibility", which is notably a different state - almost completely non-interactable and its uptime depends pretty much on decisions of the invisible dude only.

So you could say that Thief is difficult to make into a fun stealth class because GW2 actually didn't even design stealth at all, we have only invisibility.

Edited May 17 by Szymon.5369

[Sahne.6950]

On 5/15/2024 at 10:40 PM, MementoMortis.4258 said:

12K Backstab ---> Cloak and Dagger---Stealth Finisher

i could explain to you why this is one big kitty, but i dont even know where to start....   neither do i care really.

Edited May 17 by Sahne.6950

[arazoth.7290]

13 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i could explain to you why this is one big kitty, but i dont even know where to start....   neither do i care really.

do it

[Sahne.6950]

4 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

do it

...alright.... for you ❤️

 

You cant hit 12k Backstabs ever since early 2020.

Backstab -> cloack and dagger -> stealth      is also not possible     (see: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed )

Its also very vague, how the thief stealthed and got access to BS in the first place, cuz he obviously isnt running pistol offhand for the smokefield.  In oder to do BS->CaD, you need to run Dagger/Dagger.

Also....How can the thief reset hitpoints in just 10 seconds time?  getting OOC takes longer than that. 

 

There´s numerous things wrong with what he said. 

but it all boils down to:  pls delete thief, i hate it with every cell of my body.

Edited May 17 by Sahne.6950

[arazoth.7290]

4 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

...alright.... for you ❤️

 

You cant hit 12k Backstabs ever since early 2020.

Backstab -> cloack and dagger -> stealth      is also not possible     (see: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed )

Its also very vague, how the thief got stealthed in the first place, cuz he obviously isnt running pistol offhand for the smokefield.

How can the thief reset hitpoints in just 10 seconds time?  getting OOC takes longer than that.

 

There´s numerous things wrong with what he said. 

but it all boils down to:  pls delete thief, i hate it with every cell of my body.

Just wanted to troll you 😁

[Kuya.6495]

14 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

People been trying to kill thief for years unsuccessfully by trying to argue they shouldn't be allowed to do thief things

Take the hint 💀

Anet is laughing at y'all.

 

Azure makes fun of us for trying to ask for stealth changes. He believes we won't achieve our goal. He is laughing at us from stealth. 😞

[Daenxi.4530]

There is very funny phenomenon of people mistakenly thinking thief is OP or can't be counter played , without taking into consideration the incredibly high skill *floor* (not ceiling) it takes to simply be competent with thief at a medium level, it's a highly technical class to play that requires not just pressing the right buttons in the right order but also at the exact correct time and place/position.

Now I have been trying to figure out a way to articulate the general feeling of the *skill required to play* vs *effectiveness/power output* (for lack of a better term)  dynamic of the guild wars professions but to but it simply. 
Gaurdian,Ranger,Necromancer = Low skill floor with high power output especially on willbender/harbinger/soulbeast etc. In my opinion easy to play classes that require less technical ability and allows for more mistakes should be noticeably weaker. 

Next up is classes that have a high skill floor as in learning to play these professions even at a medium level is a technical and arduous affair that does not forgive mistakes. 
Revenant (Herald) , Elementalist, Thief. 
I personally come from a fighting game background so I am very much in agreement in agreement with the sentiment that *more buttons required to press = more powerful characters/build/classes etc. People should be rewarded for implementing a higher level of technical skill in their gameplay, but the fact that the guardian is a thing shows us that is not Anet's philosophy. 

Now to conclude I say all this to say to the OP that, ALL of your complaints and criticisms of the thief and your experience fighting them is invalid. Thief is a highly technical and squishy class to play that is very open to counterattack in the majority of situations. IF YOU LOSES TO A THIEF IT MEANS YOU WERE OUTSKILLED AND OUTPLAYED. You just have not bothered to stop and think WHY it is that you are losing to a class that I have no issues with defeating so here are some actual universal thief counter plays.

AOE Damage - Thieves can't come in close for the kill if you provide AOE damage for yourself, like literally stand inside your own AOE as a defensive measure, a good thief will know they can't afford to eat AOE damage as well as your auto attacks..
Self Sustain - A thief can't handle a long fight against a defensive minded player that is build for high sustain, no amount of burst will allow a thief to skill a high sustain player and the longer a thief stays out in the open attacking a tanky enemy the more they are exposed to your counterattacks or new enemies.
Long Range Damage - One of the thief's greatest asset is being able to run away from engagements, this is more true for melee as opposed to ranged, with ranged damage you can kill a thief when they are in one of their strongest position (of running away)
High Pressure - This is self explanatory, countering a thief involves, hitting them, and hitting them again and again without any pause, this forces them to exhaust defensive cooldowns and dodges and if you COUNT the dodges they do in a fight you can land your high pressure with ease.
Stick with your team - Thieves get demolished in team fights, so much so that any *good* thief wont even bother with the team fight, this makes the ultimate counter play not facing them in the first place if they bother you that much, however if it is really important to you, you can attempt to try and lead the thief into outnumbered situations to get the same effect. 

[Kuya.6495]

I think no one is making the argument that thief is easy. I've used it before and I know it's hard to play.

The real valid critique for thief (and mesmer), is with how stealth works in the game. Specifically that it has little counterplay. If someone goes stealth there are very few things you can do to pull them out of it if you're not a sic em soulbeast, dragonhunter or lockon engineer. Many reveals require a target in the first place. There is very little access to reveal. In other games stealth either has a visual tell so you can still find someone who is in stealth or it has obvious downsides (speed debuff, no healing, etc). 

Stealth in gw2 has little counterplay and little downsides. And it makes for a frustrating experience for the player having to face someone in stealth. 

Edited May 17 by Kuya.6495

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

There is very funny phenomenon of people mistakenly thinking thief is OP or can't be counter played , without taking into consideration the incredibly high skill *floor* (not ceiling) it takes to simply be competent with thief at a medium level, it's a highly technical class to play that requires not just pressing the right buttons in the right order but also at the exact correct time and place/position.

Now I have been trying to figure out a way to articulate the general feeling of the *skill required to play* vs *effectiveness/power output* (for lack of a better term)  dynamic of the guild wars professions but to but it simply. 
Gaurdian,Ranger,Necromancer = Low skill floor with high power output especially on willbender/harbinger/soulbeast etc. In my opinion easy to play classes that require less technical ability and allows for more mistakes should be noticeably weaker. 

Next up is classes that have a high skill floor as in learning to play these professions even at a medium level is a technical and arduous affair that does not forgive mistakes. 
Revenant (Herald) , Elementalist, Thief. 
I personally come from a fighting game background so I am very much in agreement in agreement with the sentiment that *more buttons required to press = more powerful characters/build/classes etc. People should be rewarded for implementing a higher level of technical skill in their gameplay, but the fact that the guardian is a thing shows us that is not Anet's philosophy. 

Now to conclude I say all this to say to the OP that, ALL of your complaints and criticisms of the thief and your experience fighting them is invalid. Thief is a highly technical and squishy class to play that is very open to counterattack in the majority of situations. IF YOU LOSES TO A THIEF IT MEANS YOU WERE OUTSKILLED AND OUTPLAYED. You just have not bothered to stop and think WHY it is that you are losing to a class that I have no issues with defeating so here are some actual universal thief counter plays.

AOE Damage - Thieves can't come in close for the kill if you provide AOE damage for yourself, like literally stand inside your own AOE as a defensive measure, a good thief will know they can't afford to eat AOE damage as well as your auto attacks..
Self Sustain - A thief can't handle a long fight against a defensive minded player that is build for high sustain, no amount of burst will allow a thief to skill a high sustain player and the longer a thief stays out in the open attacking a tanky enemy the more they are exposed to your counterattacks or new enemies.
Long Range Damage - One of the thief's greatest asset is being able to run away from engagements, this is more true for melee as opposed to ranged, with ranged damage you can kill a thief when they are in one of their strongest position (of running away)
High Pressure - This is self explanatory, countering a thief involves, hitting them, and hitting them again and again without any pause, this forces them to exhaust defensive cooldowns and dodges and if you COUNT the dodges they do in a fight you can land your high pressure with ease.
Stick with your team - Thieves get demolished in team fights, so much so that any *good* thief wont even bother with the team fight, this makes the ultimate counter play not facing them in the first place if they bother you that much, however if it is really important to you, you can attempt to try and lead the thief into outnumbered situations to get the same effect. 

 

Any thief who learns to simply back cap and +1 will have no further problems. They are now playing the lowest risk, easiest damage application spec/s in the game.

 

If they are doing anything other than that (like stealing into a 1v2 vs plats.. becuase they got away with it hundreds of times vs golds) then punishment is self inflicted, stop falling victim to the crutches of the class, and then gas lighting people into thinking thief is hard to play and punishing. It isn't.. with self control it is the king of +1. Once skilled enough, it then the king of "lets try kill this guy 1v1, if he's too good, Ill leave". With the correct mentality, it is high reward and low risk at low skill floor, with practice, it remains low risk at ceiling around good players, give me some solid evidence to say otherwise, that doesnt include newb/cocky thieves taking on stupid engagements.

Edited May 17 by Flowki.7194

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

without taking into consideration the incredibly high skill *floor* (not ceiling) it takes to simply be competent with thief at a medium level

1 hour ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I think no one is making the argument that thief is easy

I'll be that guy. I went through a lengthy discussion here and recent Thief trial period myself. For reference, I've played PvP for awhile, but never Thief before.

Many Thief builds are absolutely easy, with extremely low skill floor. You can beat most players by repeating the same 2 or 3 combos, with maybe 4 buttons total, with minimal care given toward precisely timed evades/burst windows.

Skill ceiling is high.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

Slap reveal on more skills problem solved. 

[Daenxi.4530]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Any thief who learns to simply back cap and +1 will have no further problems. They are now playing the lowest risk, easiest damage application spec/s in the game.

 

If they are doing anything other than that (like stealing into a 1v2 vs plats.. becuase they got away with it hundreds of times vs golds) then punishment is self inflicted, stop falling victim to the crutches of the class, and then gas lighting people into thinking thief is hard to play and punishing. It isn't.. with self control it is the king of +1. Once skilled enough, it then the king of "lets try kill this guy 1v1, if he's too good, Ill leave". With the correct mentality, it is high reward and low risk at low skill floor, with practice, it remains low risk at ceiling around good players, give me some solid evidence to say otherwise, that doesnt include newb/cocky thieves taking on stupid engagements.

This is circular reasoning- you can't justify you argument against the thief by stating that its strong when you play to it's strengths of engaging in +1 fights roaming and therefore its actually low skill.

[Daenxi.4530]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I'll be that guy. I went through a lengthy discussion here and recent Thief trial period myself. For reference, I've played PvP for awhile, but never Thief before.

Many Thief builds are absolutely easy, with extremely low skill floor. You can beat most players by repeating the same 2 or 3 combos, with maybe 4 buttons total, with minimal care given toward precisely timed evades/burst windows.

Skill ceiling is high.

You must be lying at this point, the idea that a thief does not need to care for evade and burst windows means you have not played it.

[Daenxi.4530]

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I think no one is making the argument that thief is easy. I've used it before and I know it's hard to play.

The real valid critique for thief (and mesmer), is with how stealth works in the game. Specifically that it has little counterplay. If someone goes stealth there are very few things you can do to pull them out of it if you're not a sic em soulbeast, dragonhunter or lockon engineer. Many reveals require a target in the first place. There is very little access to reveal. In other games stealth either has a visual tell so you can still find someone who is in stealth or it has obvious downsides (speed debuff, no healing, etc). 

Stealth in gw2 has little counterplay and little downsides. And it makes for a frustrating experience for the player having to face someone in stealth. 

And I say once again, your critique is invalid - World of warcraft is a much slower paced game than guild wars but rogues have PERMA stealth with a movement speed decrease ( which can talent spec'd for faster speed in stealth). They can be knocked out of stealth by any AOE attacks and Hunters (Wow's equivalent to rangers) can have their pits sniff out stealthed enemies, or shoot a flare the exposes stealthed enemies, and all players can occasionally detect stealthed players who move too close and too frequently to enemy players, but the main point is that they PERMA STEALTH on demand. That's a decent list of pros and cons that makes stealth balanced in WoW. 

Now in GW2 - Stealth is TEMPORARY, no more than 2 or three seconds.
You can still take damage in stealth, the revealed debuff means that unlike in WoW you can't go straight back into stealth instantly after opening a fight with an enemy. and plenty of classes have access to reveal. Not to mention stealth is not unique to thief. So the biggest factor to counterplaying stealth is the fact that it is TEMPORARY ( people have no idea how important this is) just have some patience kitten, stealth is not hard to play against, I already explained.
 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Azure makes fun of us for trying to ask for stealth changes. He believes we won't achieve our goal. He is laughing at us from stealth. 😞

 

Spoiler

Hehehehehehe

 

[Endo.1652]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I'll be that guy. I went through a lengthy discussion here and recent Thief trial period myself. For reference, I've played PvP for awhile, but never Thief before.

Many Thief builds are absolutely easy, with extremely low skill floor. You can beat most players by repeating the same 2 or 3 combos, with maybe 4 buttons total, with minimal care given toward precisely timed evades/burst windows.

Skill ceiling is high.

Ill agree that thief is pretty 1 dimensional mechanically which makes it seem pretty easy in that sense. Understanding how your build works is simple.

But, the timing and evades comment is wrong.  Vs any players with a brain, thats the most important thing... you shouldve realized that when you fought my DH in the ffa pit with your thief