Deadeye needs a nerf

[Oslaf Beinir.5842]

Just play heavy projectile hate(Ele Focus, Engi shield +LockOn, Rev Ventari, etc), tanky sustain or be creative and oneshot them. 
If all fails play D/P Daredevil and farm them on the apex hunter build. 

[urd.8306]

btw. when will we finally see a nerf for D/P Daredevil?

[kiranslee.4829]

3 hours ago, Oslaf Beinir.5842 said:

Just play heavy projectile hate(Ele Focus, Engi shield +LockOn, Rev Ventari, etc), tanky sustain or be creative and oneshot them. 
If all fails play D/P Daredevil and farm them on the apex hunter build. 

So in essence, if you wish to win vs broken class, play a broken class 😄 ?

Makes sense.

[Nash.2681]

On 5/20/2024 at 2:20 PM, Kyon.4810 said:

If only target painters were locking down thieves movement abilities and pull them close to you like in range of 130 + uncleansable immobilize to target. Because revealed thief with IQ>0 just uses 2 jumps of 1200 range and waiting for cd and just kill you after that with 2 shoots.

So much this. Stealth is an issue, but not exclusive to Deadeye or Thieves. And while I think stealth in its current iteration (not everyone has equal access to it, far too less reveal possibilities) is an issue, what makes rifle Deadeyes so ultra anoying is the insane mobility + range at which they are able to apply their damage. 

I mean, whenever I see a thief in WvW it's kind of "oh noes, that boring bullkitten again". But at least I can get along with the melee (focused) builds with a realistic chance of killing them. Or I get killed, but at least they had to take a risk and I had a chance to fight back. Rifle Deadeye is just plain boring troll level kitten. Try to fight them? Stealth - Blink - Bonk - Stealth - Blink - Bonk, and so on. Try to run away? Blink after you - Bonk - Bonk - Blink again, Bonk - Bonk...

[Oslaf Beinir.5842]

4 hours ago, kiranslee.4829 said:

So in essence, if you wish to win vs broken class, play a broken class 😄 ?

Makes sense.

Is there a class that isnt broken now after SoTO?  If you wanna be fair go ahead and play core Revenant. 
If you want to win then you play to win whatever class and the method the game offers. 
Hmm but then again do we need to play to win? The game doesnt really reward winning so make your own fun?

[oatsnjuices.1698]

I think it is overtuned. If they make the right macros, its faster than a warclaw, even faster than a bow bow thief running an evade build. It has a smokescreen on demand that can be stood in the middle and no projectile can hit it from any direction. It has access to almost perma stealth, it has high damage, and if they play marauder with a few cele and dura, nothing can kill it. De is the most busted class in the game, but it is super boring, and that is the only reason only people that wanna win 100% without hacking play it.

[agnlaa.7594]

skill issue. go back to open world pve where you can facetank everything 

[oatsnjuices.1698]

I feel reveal on miss would correct the "skill issue" I can see where it is coming from, why cant i see who it is?

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

20 hours ago, urd.8306 said:

btw. when will we finally see a nerf for D/P Daredevil?

How do they roll in smoke and achieve stealth? I know it's not the flip dodge because they're rolling and there's no damage

[bq pd.2148]

13 minutes ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

How do they roll in smoke and achieve stealth? I know it's not the flip dodge because they're rolling and there's no damage

i don't think i have ever seen that, i guess you don't have a video of it?

my best guess of what it could be so far:
some combat tonics don't have the unique dodge animation for daredevil dodges for example Smoke Shaman or Olmakhan. other tonics don't really have any dodge animation like kodan or awakened archer tonics.  however all of those still do damage when using bound for stealth leaping, the damage seems minimally delayed after what seems to be their dodge move..

[Kyon.4810]

17 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

So much this. Stealth is an issue, but not exclusive to Deadeye or Thieves. And while I think stealth in its current iteration (not everyone has equal access to it, far too less reveal possibilities) is an issue, what makes rifle Deadeyes so ultra anoying is the insane mobility + range at which they are able to apply their damage. 

I mean, whenever I see a thief in WvW it's kind of "oh noes, that boring bullkitten again". But at least I can get along with the melee (focused) builds with a realistic chance of killing them. Or I get killed, but at least they had to take a risk and I had a chance to fight back. Rifle Deadeye is just plain boring troll level kitten. Try to fight them? Stealth - Blink - Bonk - Stealth - Blink - Bonk, and so on. Try to run away? Blink after you - Bonk - Bonk - Blink again, Bonk - Bonk...

The best realisation of stealth I have seen was in Lineage II, it has long duration (about 1-2 min or so) but once you got revealed or entered combat - you cannot use stealth for about 30 min of cd and this is makes sense - if you want to fight - get your fight and do not hide.

Millions of blinks also makes no sense, imho, most of classes have 1 blink with 900-1200 range and 30s cd, but thieves have like 6 blinks with 0 cd and range of 1200-1500.

Obviously thief is best ganker for wvw, which cannot die even under heavy focus of zerg. But thieves are useless in big fights. So it is really depends on your playstyle if you want to fight vs unkillable gankers or want to fight in big groups and have chance.

[Nash.2681]

6 minutes ago, Kyon.4810 said:

The best realisation of stealth I have seen was in Lineage II, it has long duration (about 1-2 min or so) but once you got revealed or entered combat - you cannot use stealth for about 30 min of cd and this is makes sense - if you want to fight - get your fight and do not hide.

Millions of blinks also makes no sense, imho, most of classes have 1 blink with 900-1200 range and 30s cd, but thieves have like 6 blinks with 0 cd and range of 1200-1500.

Obviously thief is best ganker for wvw, which cannot die even under heavy focus of zerg. But thieves are useless in big fights. So it is really depends on your playstyle if you want to fight vs unkillable gankers or want to fight in big groups and have chance.

Never played Linage II, but what you describe would be the ultimate nerf hammer for stealth. Not that I'd care personally, but it might be a tad to much. Though I fully agree with the "if you want to fight - get your fight and do not hide" part.

Also agree on the blink line 100%.

Your conclusion sums up the whole issue. The moment one does not want to run with the big pack, but go alone or roam the realms with a friend or just a few other strangers you meet along the way, you're doomed as soon as you encounter this pesky build. When this happens, all you can do is change the map or leave WvW, since you'll not get a foot in the door as long as this super creative individual decides to bully you.

[urd.8306]

Not sure if in this whole discussion

19 hours ago, kiranslee.4829 said:

So in essence, if you wish to win vs broken class, play a broken class 😄 ?

Makes sense.

vs Thief it's more like:
You want to beat thief, you have to play thief, because there is no real other counter to it. There are very few occassions to call it "unfavourable" but on thief you can easily choose to ignore a fight - which isn't true for the most other classes (except you count porting out and doing something else)

[Meizu.1846]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:04 AM, Kyon.4810 said:

So it is really depends on your playstyle if you want to fight vs unkillable gankers or want to fight in big groups and have chance.

Well I would like to have at least a standing chance when I'm roaming around and getting ganked by a thief out of nowhere. Under no circumstance is getting owned so hard by thieves when ganked a desireable element in the game. Everybody hates it, it's not fun, it's pure trolling and is a very unfair situation. Not everyone wants to zerg all the time and the second you go roaming and see a thief you basically need to turn the other way and run. And for good measure, you're clad in heavy armor. It's bad. 

Aion is a crap game but I like how they had thieves sorted out, similar to Lineage II - you could stealth for a very long time (IIRC there was even a perma stealth option of 3 min duration but with like a 30sec CD or something) but once you went into combat there was only one re-stealth option for a couple seconds and that's it. Furthermore, the pvp dynamic in Aion at the time was that assassins were incredibly good for deleting cloth classes but needed to outplay/outgear heavy armor classes a lot if they wanted to win. Which makes perfect sense, it breaks immersion when you're a walking tank and then a small dude with two sticks breaks you in half, like what the hell man. So at least even though assassins were the gankers in Aion, at least it was good karma when as equally as sorcs and spiritmasters trembled when they knew an assassin was chasing them, so was the assassin when he got chased by a templar. It was a fun and engaging gameplay to play assassin back at the time. I loved it. 

Edited May 30 by Meizu.1846

[urd.8306]

I think Anet should get rid of reveal and make a "detect stealth" boon and put in on a 4 stat armor always replacing vitality (ie on Marauder Chest it's 63). The higher your stat the better your vision for stealthed units. With maximum detection you'll see any stealthed player on 900 range and you don't lose that target when it's stealthing.

 

[bq pd.2148]

21 minutes ago, urd.8306 said:

I think Anet should get rid of reveal and make a "detect stealth" boon and put in on a 4 stat armor always replacing vitality (ie on Marauder Chest it's 63). The higher your stat the better your vision for stealthed units. With maximum detection you'll see any stealthed player on 900 range and you don't lose that target when it's stealthing.

 

terrible suggestion as that would make fighting thieves while not having such a stat an absolute nightmare given they could then instantly restealth after any hit.

it also is an issue if mechanics don't work with any sort of consistency, how would the stealthed person know if they are stealthed to the target or not?
 

[urd.8306]

20 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

terrible suggestion as that would make fighting thieves while not having such a stat an absolute nightmare given they could then instantly restealth after any hit.

it also is an issue if mechanics don't work with any sort of consistency, how would the stealthed person know if they are stealthed to the target or not?
 

Without the stat nothing happens compared to now.
With the stat of course the thief/mesmer doesn't know if/that you can see him. That's the risk for him. At the moment there is no risk for stealth classes, because you can disappear as much as you want.
Everything in this game should have counterplay and at the moment stealth has no counterplay at all.

 

Yes, I understand that the possibility to get killed on a thief is a new and frightening experience for thief players, but it will change the whole system to a better one.

Edited May 30 by urd.8306

[bq pd.2148]

Just now, urd.8306 said:

Without the stat nothing happens compared to now.

well currently if i attack someone from stealth, or hit someone with a delayed (ranged) stealth attack just after stealth dropped, i will get revealed. your suggestion started with removing revealed for it.  that would allow a thief to attack from stealth and go right back into it without those few seconds to pressure them. could even spamm CnD without having to to time it like one would now

2 minutes ago, urd.8306 said:

With the stat of course the thief/mesmer doesn't know if/that you can see him. That's the risk for him. At the moment there is no risk for stealth classes, because you can disappear as much as you want.
Everything in this game should have counterplay and at the moment stealth has no counterplay at all.

blocks/reflects/projectile absorbs work on regular projectiles, but not on unblockable projectiles. some skills are known to be unblockable and any effect that makes a different projectile unblockable will be visible in the targets effects so that their opponents could know about it. that is important for counterplay, you wouldn't want to waste a defensive skill for nothing there after all.
just in the same way a form of true sight needs consistency. for example one could replace current reveal skills with a true sight boon, this has been suggested multiple times before on this forum. say a boon that consistently lets the one affected see stealthed players at 600-900 range (whatever range has to be consitent).

[urd.8306]

I said remove "revealed" because it doesn't do much right now. The few seconds of revealed combined with the typical "server lag" don't help much. Even with an average ping of 30 you often miss the revealed phase. Even worse, when I play on a burst mesmer build revealed doesn't help you. If you don't see my going into stealth you end up dead on the ground, because you can't dodge burst you don't expect. Similar to Deadeye.

I agree that there had to be some finetuning without revealed to avoid perma stealth like  in the old days.

I understand where you are coming from, but the "visibility" of skills is a bit tricky in this game anyway, because it correlates with numbers of players. Yes, in a small scale fight you see those visuals, but it's getting almost impossible as soon as a certain number of players is involved.
And this is btw. one of the reasons stealth is so strong. The moment you lose a target and there are other targets around it becomes pretty hard to re-target the right one. Even if you STRG-T a mesmer it gets pretty hard to find him again between all the clones and clutter in the world.

Anyway, I'd really like to see a good counter to stealth, because it's kitten boring (and useless) to fight thieves and partially mesmers. That's why I rather play my Ele instead of my Mesmer since PoF.

 

Edited May 30 by urd.8306

[T G.7496]

DE is just terrible game design, and the appeal that it has, the itch that it scratches, is troubling.

[Straegen.2938]

I am no fan of how the stealth mechanic works in GW2 and think any damage even when not stealthed should immediately proc the stealth cooldown. However if you are dying to solo Deadeyes, it is either because you are engaging with it, they are catching you hurt or you are running a glass build same with D/P Thief. Neither of these are one shot builds. Dying to it is like getting killed by a Pew Pew Ranger. I suspect a lot of the complaints stem from a pack of thieves carving up a target with only one being visible at a time.

Over tuned classes that are legit dangerous in small scale WvW, Willbender tops that list (a build variant that shouldn't exist on a heavy armor class that already dominants in large scale fights). Teleports half way across a map and often runs very bursty with power and condi because of its stupid good sustain. One shot blow up mesmer variants are vastly more dangerous and even lightning eles are better one shot (although more difficult to play). 

Thieves of pretty much any build variety are essentially relegated to +1 play and are terrible in large scale play. They are slippery and when played very well dangerous in small scale but are by no means OP or need any more nerfs beyond general stealth nerfs. Players that duel know exactly what I mean... 1v1 of equal skill the thief class is unremarkable and outright terrible in medium to large scale play.

Edited May 31 by Straegen.2938

[PrinceValentine.9320]

DE needs a nerf more than WB. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 5/19/2024 at 6:58 AM, goron.7916 said:

Can we all agree that this spec has too much damage? Not to mention all the mobility and permastealth. Im fine with it being practically invincible, but at least trim down the damage, like it is INSANE. Skirmishers shot hitting for 3-4k damage, its so easy just Spam 1 button and opponent dies in seconds. Deaths judgement hitting vor over 9k??? There is no danger, because you are always at 1200 range. So, high damage, high range, high mobility, high stealth uptime...where is the downside? Oh yeah, with shadow arts you also get cleansed every time you go in and out of stealth. Who thought this was a good idea?? I will continue to abuse this spec and jump on corpses until anet nerves this overtuned bull.

They are taking feedback for the next balance patch in June. You might get better results for considerations posting some feedback there. Sure it might not get in, but it would feedback they might consider. 

 

[DemonSeed.3528]

On 5/24/2024 at 6:47 AM, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

I think it is overtuned. If they make the right macros, its faster than a warclaw, even faster than a bow bow thief running an evade build. It has a smokescreen on demand that can be stood in the middle and no projectile can hit it from any direction. It has access to almost perma stealth, it has high damage, and if they play marauder with a few cele and dura, nothing can kill it. De is the most busted class in the game, but it is super boring, and that is the only reason only people that wanna win 100% without hacking play it.

Gib me build so I can finally win WvW 

[Mike.3196]

Only issue with deadeye or d/p is the shadow arts that is all they just need to rework shadow arts and it will be fine. If you thief needs more or a nerf then that's just player issue and understanding how to fight them.