June 25 Balance Update Preview [THIEF]

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Thief

Venoms are receiving a big usability improvement in this update, with an increased maximum stack count. They'll still be limited on a per-source basis, but multiple thieves will now be able to grant venoms to the same target without issue. We've also increased the damage on a number of sword skills in PvE to make it a more potent pick, and we reduced the cooldowns on a number of defensive utility skills.

• Crippling Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 1.4 to 1.55 in PvE only.
• Tactical Strike and Malicious Tactical Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 1.33 to 2.0 in PvE only. Increased the daze duration while behind the enemy from 2 seconds to 3 seconds in PvE only.
• Flanking Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Larcenous Strike: Reduced the initiative cost from 2 to 1 in PvE only. Increased the power coefficient from 1.6 to 2.17 in PvE only.
• Pistol Whip: Increased the initial power coefficient from 0.37 to 0.74 in PvE only. Increased the flurry power coefficient from 0.79 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Unload: Increased the power coefficient from 0.4 to 0.45 in PvE only.
• Shadow Shot: The unblockable shot from this skill will now pierce targets if the Deadly Aim trait is equipped. Increased the power coefficient from 1.3125 to 1.8 in PvE only.
• Skale Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of skale venom allies can gain from 5 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 5 charges of skale venom from the same source at any one time.
• Spider Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of spider venom allies can gain from 6 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 6 stacks of spider venom from the same source at any one time. You cannot grant yourself more than 6 stacks of spider venom at any one time unless Leeching Venoms is also equipped.
• Skelk Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of skelk venom allies can gain from 4 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 4 charges of skelk venom from the same source at any one time.
• Ice Drake Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of ice drake venom allies can gain from 4 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 4 charges of ice drake venom from the same source at any one time.
• Devourer Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of devourer venom allies can gain from 2 to 10 in PvE only. Allies cannot have more than 2 charges of devourer venom from the same source at any one time.
• Hide in Shadows: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.
• Infiltrator's Signet: Reduced the cooldown from 24 seconds to 20 seconds in PvE only.
• Roll for Initiative: Reduced the cooldown from 28 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.
• Shadow Refuge: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 35 seconds in PvE only.
• Shadow Portal: Increased the number of uses from 5 to 10 in PvE only.
• Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvE only.
• Pumping Up: Increased the might stacks from 1 to 3 in PvE only.

Daredevil

• Escapist's Fortitude: Increased the base healing from 456 to 684 in PvE only. Increased the healing coefficient from 0.08 to 0.12 in PvE only.
• Unhindered Combatant: Reduced the duration of the exhaustion effect to 0.1 seconds for all conditions in PvE only.

Deadeye

• Kneel: Reduced the initiative cost from 2 to 1 in PvE only.

Specter

• Shadow Sap: Increased the splash effectiveness of boon duration to allies from 50% to 75% in PvE only.
• Well of Silence: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.

Edited May 24 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Doggie.3184]

Just more hitting Golems and tweaking numbers stuff. It's cool and useful and all but I want things to actually feel better and more fun in ways beyond just "this can be used more often" or "this does this damage now." Some things I don't use not just cuz damage sucks but because they just don't feel good mechanically. Most of which I've mentoned already plenty of times, including wishlist.

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

oh that Golem is gotta get it. Are you ready for Golem Gamin?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Not only this but squads of condi thieves can actually use venom stacking now past 6 meaning wvw and pve thief shenanigans 

Edited May 25 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

17 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Just more hitting Golems and tweaking numbers stuff. It's cool and useful and all but I want things to actually feel better and more fun in ways beyond just "this can be used more often" or "this does this damage now." Some things I don't use not just cuz damage sucks but because they just don't feel good mechanically. Most of which I've mentoned already plenty of times, including wishlist.

Agreed. It's kinda why I left the game and peak in the forums ever now and then to see if things changed.

Thief took so many hits over the years, and fell behind the other professions mechanics - with some of their specialties getting invaded - and sometimes doing it better.

You can tweak the damage values of thief all you want. But the problem still stands. The reward of the high risk/high-reward nature that thief had is no longer there. Their dueling capabilities are gone as they can get shrugged off easily. And there's very little feedback for when a thief plays well - as their staying power got nerfed, along side their evasive capabilities. Even the thief's action economy is worse than most professions. Because the costs of their initiative had gotten so bad, that they can only do three actions in quick succession. Versus another professions nine.

The biggest thing that needs to get fixed is that feed back and reward. Dodging a single attack for 1 init isn't very helpful. The impact of thief's skills are no where near the same as another profession, as the thief has to use their skills multiple times in combos. So why is that stingy?

Thief has very little in the way of passive defenses or sustain such as regen, protection, aegis, shields. Which is why Daredevil is so heavily picked. Three dodges. We used to have cats grace which gave the thief the ability to stay in combat by reading and careful evading skills - and you'd always have something in the tank that'd let you get out of a faceroll that would kill you every time.

There's also the issue that theif isn't really a great pick for any of the PVP game modes. WvW - commanders don't want you. You're no longer the roaming king. And other classes will easily out duel you if you're somewhat of similar skill. PvP You're forced into a singular role of +1 and decap because everyone knows you don't have the staying power on your own to fight. Versus what Thief was near launch, where their role in PvP was to pick off people who were alone or distracted. Even in team fights, the thief would snipe someone, to tip the scales and then move off to do an objective.

Edited May 25 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[kidbuu.4071]

Shadow Shot: The unblockable shot from this skill will now pierce targets if the Deadly Aim trait is equipped!  June can't come soon enough 

19 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Thief

Venoms are receiving a big usability improvement in this update, with an increased maximum stack count. They'll still be limited on a per-source basis, but multiple thieves will now be able to grant venoms to the same target without issue. We've also increased the damage on a number of sword skills in PvE to make it a more potent pick, and we reduced the cooldowns on a number of defensive utility skills.

• Crippling Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 1.4 to 1.55 in PvE only.
• Tactical Strike and Malicious Tactical Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 1.33 to 2.0 in PvE only. Increased the daze duration while behind the enemy from 2 seconds to 3 seconds in PvE only.
• Flanking Strike: Increased the power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Larcenous Strike: Reduced the initiative cost from 2 to 1 in PvE only. Increased the power coefficient from 1.6 to 2.17 in PvE only.
• Pistol Whip: Increased the initial power coefficient from 0.37 to 0.74 in PvE only. Increased the flurry power coefficient from 0.79 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Unload: Increased the power coefficient from 0.4 to 0.45 in PvE only.
• Shadow Shot: The unblockable shot from this skill will now pierce targets if the Deadly Aim trait is equipped. Increased the power coefficient from 1.3125 to 1.8 in PvE only.
• Skale Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of skale venom allies can gain from 5 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 5 charges of skale venom from the same source at any one time.
• Spider Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of spider venom allies can gain from 6 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 6 stacks of spider venom from the same source at any one time. You cannot grant yourself more than 6 stacks of spider venom at any one time unless Leeching Venoms is also equipped.
• Skelk Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of skelk venom allies can gain from 4 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 4 charges of skelk venom from the same source at any one time.
• Ice Drake Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of ice drake venom allies can gain from 4 to 25. Allies cannot have more than 4 charges of ice drake venom from the same source at any one time.
• Devourer Venom: Increased the maximum number of charges of devourer venom allies can gain from 2 to 10 in PvE only. Allies cannot have more than 2 charges of devourer venom from the same source at any one time.
• Hide in Shadows: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.
• Infiltrator's Signet: Reduced the cooldown from 24 seconds to 20 seconds in PvE only.
• Roll for Initiative: Reduced the cooldown from 28 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.
• Shadow Refuge: Reduced the cooldown from 60 seconds to 35 seconds in PvE only.
• Shadow Portal: Increased the number of uses from 5 to 10 in PvE only.
• Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvE only.
• Pumping Up: Increased the might stacks from 1 to 3 in PvE only.

Daredevil

• Escapist's Fortitude: Increased the base healing from 456 to 684 in PvE only. Increased the healing coefficient from 0.08 to 0.12 in PvE only.
• Unhindered Combatant: Reduced the duration of the exhaustion effect to 0.1 seconds for all conditions in PvE only.

Deadeye

• Kneel: Reduced the initiative cost from 2 to 1 in PvE only.

Specter

• Shadow Sap: Increased the splash effectiveness of boon duration to allies from 50% to 75% in PvE only.
• Well of Silence: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.

 

[eXistence.3876]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:34 PM, Doggie.3184 said:

Just more hitting Golems and tweaking numbers stuff. It's cool and useful and all but I want things to actually feel better and more fun in ways beyond just "this can be used more often" or "this does this damage now." Some things I don't use not just cuz damage sucks but because they just don't feel good mechanically. Most of which I've mentoned already plenty of times, including wishlist.

The game has shifted design philosophies from "what's awesome and fun!? Let's do that!! Omg we have the most unique MMO ever let's keep it up!" to..."let's focus on numbers because of reasons..."

[FrancisN.9276]

The damage buff to sword is welcoming and warranted because that weapon has been lagging behind for almost a decade. However, venom rework is rather weak. They just make it stack more so having more than one venom-build thief in the party grants some dps buff, which is a bit of a rare occurence. If there is a need for utility skill rework, I would say the whole line of Preparation skills needs it. Did they fix the bug with Swindle's Equilibrium not reducing CD?

[Doggie.3184]

20 hours ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

The damage buff to sword is welcoming and warranted because that weapon has been lagging behind for almost a decade. However, venom rework is rather weak. They just make it stack more so having more than one venom-build thief in the party grants some dps buff, which is a bit of a rare occurence. If there is a need for utility skill rework, I would say the whole line of Preparation skills needs it. Did they fix the bug with Swindle's Equilibrium not reducing CD?

I generally avoid playing Condi Thief just cuz how boring Venoms are and the lack of utility between slotting them (most classes get bonus features on a single-line of skills like stunbreaks n condi removal and etc so they can fit them in every slot easier), and I hate the arming time of "traps" and don't use them nomatter how meta they are.

Then there's the issue of sets like Pistol/Dagger and Scepter/Pistol being really annoying to use in PvE cuz of the self-knockback and Dagger/Dagger hurling you all over. Don't have enough control over your character.

The (lack of) venom stacking thing was a big problem but yeah, not one I ever ran into when playing it since it's a non-issue when you groups full of easy-mode Necros.  So that was never the reason I don't use those builds.

Edited May 28 by Doggie.3184

[Asra.8746]

Only decent changes:

• Shadow Shot: The unblockable shot from this skill will now pierce targets if the Deadly Aim trait is equipped.
• Venom changes:
  • This is something that should have existed in the game since day one. You can actually play multiple condi thieves now, instead of being restricted to 2 or doing some weird coordinations. Having said that, I don't see Basilisk in there and that elite skill takes like 1.5s to fully cast.
• Shadow Portal: Increased the number of uses from 5 to 10 in PvE only.
  • This is how it should have always been.
• Shadow Sap: Increased the splash effectiveness of boon duration to allies from 50% to 75% in PvE only.
  • Okay, but why isn't this applied to all the skills? That's such a weird oversight. Also, since it's PvE only, why not just make it 100%?
• Well of Silence: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvE only.
  • Why not just make it 20s like the rest of the wells...it's a PvE change afterall. Why balance so overly safe with support thief when things like firebrand, druid, herald, and chrono exists?

Sword changes aren't good enough for PvE. Sword 3 skills are way too slow. PW locks you in place...it's worse than WC spam. Nothing changed for PvP...even the auto attack is overly slow for how little it does - it's such a wet noodle that people just stand and eat it like it's nothing.

For them to claim this next patch was going to bring up underused weapons and skills, they did a poor job making adjustments to sword (PvE and PvP) and some utilities, like Well of Tears/Sorrow, Scorpion Wire, and preparation skills. The changes, while something, is not enough...and they even admitted it on stream. So, it begs the question: why didn't they go further and try a little bit harder to make it enough?

Quote

We’re primarily focused on improving the usability of underpowered skills, utilities, and traits and bringing in outlier builds where necessary. - Studio Update: Guild Wars 2 in Spring and Summer 2024

Finally, Kneel shouldn't cost any initiative...period! Movement penalty is already restrictive enough. cVirt is a thing.

[Eugenides.1274]

PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only

Pretty boring patch but no nerfs is always a plus I suppose?

On 5/25/2024 at 6:49 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Not only this but squads of condi thieves can actually use venom stacking now past 6 meaning wvw and pve thief shenanigans 

This is most likely going to get nerfed in WvW after a bit of silliness.

Edited May 29 by Eugenides.1274

[Bunny.9834]

We appreciate the sword buffs as we were asking for it forever for PvE but it's still gonna be clunky without quickness. 

Give core thief and DD access to self-quickness in PvE

#1   Burst of Agility is STILL TERRIBLE.  It needs a major buff in PvE. 60s CD is too much.  
#2   Quickpockets - throw some quickness there with weapon swaps (make it might for PvP/WvW) 

 

[bq pd.2148]

11 minutes ago, Bunny.9834 said:

Quickpockets - throw some [..] there with weapon swaps (make it might for PvP/WvW)

you misspelled stability there, it does compete with SoH.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:20 PM, Eugenides.1274 said:

PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only PvE only

Pretty boring patch but no nerfs is always a plus I suppose?

This is most likely going to get nerfed in WvW after a bit of silliness.

It's already silly with boon balls. Now we just need more stack limits on basilisk venoms to combat ye old Stability spammers

Edited May 31 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Antycypator.9874]

Last time I used sword in PvE (few days ago), it was literally the worst melee weapon ever. Sword is so weak and clunky, that mobs in Crystal Desert took me as an NPC. Those little buffs won't make sword better than single dagger. Sword will always be PvP only weapon.

And I'm very disappointed by lack of good Daredevil trait reworks. In these times, PvE Daredevil has no right to exist. Why even play DD? Give me one reason to play this spec. I was Daredevil main for very long time, but now with Staff Deadeye, Daredevil is literally the worst possible choice.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Peek in here once in a while. I see not much has changed for thieves in 2 years.

I'll have a peek at the spear skills, but man.. looking at things around here gives me no joy.

[lvis.3824]

Again Anet failes to bring anything useful. Those updates are weak and boring. We will end up playing the same 5 utils and the same traitlines as the past 12 years ..

 

And why the kitten are thief changes always like +/- 0.1%  but for other professions its like +/- 50% ??? Engineer Elixir s Cooldown from 60 sec CD to 30 sec , or ranger Signet of Stone 80 -> 30  , Engineer Crate 120 -> 75 . But thief still has 90 and 120 sec Cooldown on Elite skills ... f