Support weapons for necromancer?

[Player.2475]

Party healing seems pretty limited. Scourge barrier is nice. Well of blood is good too, but other than some applications of regeneration and Well of Blood, I don't see any burst healing potential. If you're going into an encounter where your party is left low on health after a mechanic like Fractal 99, there is no way to really heal them up in a reasonable amount of time.

Would a healing weapon upset the balance too much?

[Purple Effects.2503]

Necromancers balanced on its shroud skills, weapons play second fiddle to it, you'd likely see nerfs to many aspects of necro if they did make a Healing focused weapons, if u look at even DPS Weapons for the class they tend to be quite utility focused with CC etc etc then raw Damage for the same reasons. 

also, as far as im aware, Scourge atleast used to be Wildly overpowered for a quite a long period of time

Edited May 27 by Magmi.6723

[Shuzuru.3651]

Well of blood + Transfusion is your burst heal, it tops health bar in seconds

Sure, it's not instant, but nothing stop you to barrier people too, so staying at 20% for like 2 sec is not a problem.

[Echostorm.9143]

Granted Well of Blood and Transfusion can burst heal a bit, they are often used off cooldown just to keep up or Transfusion is held back for the corpse pull in situations like Slothazar or Boneskinner.  Chrono and Druid both have comparable utility with their clone shatters and CA that we do with shades but they have a rifle and staff that lend a ton of healing and buffs, hell even warrior staffs outshine anything we have by far.

We have a ton of power weapons and another coming with the new spear.  It is time for necros to get a heal/support weapon like the other classes have.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

A support weapon honestly should probably bring group Protection, Resistance, and/or Resolution.  Scourge already has 100% Protection uptime and insane condition cleanses, so this wouldn't be much of a power boost to the spec.  However, it would be a godsend for support Harbinger.

[frazazel.7501]

Support Harbinger has such an uphill battle. Anything that you give it via a weapon is going to be given to Scourge as well. In fact, Scourge will get more benefit than Harbinger, since Harbinger needs to go into shroud to provide quickness.

Untamed was in a similar situation, but it at least has a unique Unleashed Ambush feature that interacts with its weapon, and getting access to 2 new support weapons in the last year gave it a huge boost that Druid didn't get.

Heal Harbinger will need a rework to one or more of its traits.

[XECOR.2814]

On 5/27/2024 at 11:19 PM, Player.2475 said:

Party healing seems pretty limited. Scourge barrier is nice. Well of blood is good too, but other than some applications of regeneration and Well of Blood, I don't see any burst healing potential. If you're going into an encounter where your party is left low on health after a mechanic like Fractal 99, there is no way to really heal them up in a reasonable amount of time.

Would a healing weapon upset the balance too much?

scourge raw healing is also very high, falling short only to druid in raw numbers. 
transfusion+barrier+ healling on shroud exit+regen is way more than enough healing to handle any encounter in the game even if it 50% more damage.

Edited June 7 by XECOR.2814

[Lahmia.2193]

16 hours ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

Granted Well of Blood and Transfusion can burst heal a bit, they are often used off cooldown just to keep up or Transfusion is held back for the corpse pull in situations like Slothazar or Boneskinner.  Chrono and Druid both have comparable utility with their clone shatters and CA that we do with shades but they have a rifle and staff that lend a ton of healing and buffs, hell even warrior staffs outshine anything we have by far.

We have a ton of power weapons and another coming with the new spear.  It is time for necros to get a heal/support weapon like the other classes have.

Seems like the perfect time to just bite the bullet and make dagger our support weapon. You wouldn't even need to change it too much either (so as not to upset myself and the 5 other people that use it).

[Player.2475]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:27 PM, Echostorm.9143 said:

Granted Well of Blood and Transfusion can burst heal a bit, they are often used off cooldown just to keep up or Transfusion is held back for the corpse pull in situations like Slothazar or Boneskinner.  Chrono and Druid both have comparable utility with their clone shatters and CA that we do with shades but they have a rifle and staff that lend a ton of healing and buffs, hell even warrior staffs outshine anything we have by far.

We have a ton of power weapons and another coming with the new spear.  It is time for necros to get a heal/support weapon like the other classes have.

This is exactly what my problem is. Your healing boils down to 2 abilities, Well of Blood and Garnish Pillar (because of Transfusion), both of which are best saved for emergencies. You can also count Life from Death if you forgive the fact that it's a delayed heal that heals as much as any other class' support weapon's 2nd ability. When you play Guardian, Druid or Revenant with Centaur + Salvation it's obvious that pretty much every other healing build has access to several skills that are just as strong as your "strongest" (only) 2 healing abilities.

Barrier is strong when you pre-stack all 3 barrier generating skills right before a strong hit, but for persistent damage it's like getting 5 seconds of protection from as much damage as every other healing weapon and utility can outheal every 5-15 seconds. Sandstorm Shroud's small pulses provide as much barrier as autoattacks from Rev's staff heal...

[Purple Effects.2503]

On 6/7/2024 at 1:19 PM, Lahmia.2193 said:

Seems like the perfect time to just bite the bullet and make dagger our support weapon. You wouldn't even need to change it too much either (so as not to upset myself and the 5 other people that use it).

Dagger is currently in both of necros power meta builds?.. I think it’s used abit more then 5 players lol

[Shuzuru.3651]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:27 PM, Echostorm.9143 said:

Granted Well of Blood and Transfusion can burst heal a bit, they are often used off cooldown just to keep up or Transfusion is held back for the corpse pull in situations like Slothazar or Boneskinner

Hard disaggree there, scourge barrier + regen is more than enough to keep up in many fight.

I more than often did a lot of raid/strike (CM or not) without ever touching my well or transfusion, or only using it for burst healing

 

But I do agree that necro lacks some true support weapons and some boon application (swiftness, stability, maybe vigor?)

[andreiblue.8231]

On 6/9/2024 at 12:20 PM, Magmi.6723 said:

Dagger is currently in both of necros power meta builds?.. I think it’s used abit more then 5 players lol

Used for life force generation and the difference between it and axe in terms of dps is minimal.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

This is such a weird take. Scourge is already a strong healer, what it currently lacks is just giving Stability.  Other than that, compared to other classes then Scourge has the privilege of pumping out a lot of barrier (proactive healing) and rezz power. A lot of healers don’t have access to these tools, especially the former, so most classes are only reactive healers compared to Scourge’s more proactive approach.

And Idk, just mindlessly spamming buttons off cooldown seems like very inexperienced piloting. If so then it’s not really the class’ fault. And if 99 is Surf and the mechanic in question is the spread circles, isn’t there a huge amount of time prior to the circles to prepare for that?

A hypothetical healing weapon would destroy Scourge, because Scourge’s barrier and abilities will have to be adjusted to account for it. As much as that would help heal Harbinger a lot, I wouldn’t like it if it destroys Scourge in the process. 

[Tinker.6924]

On 5/27/2024 at 1:49 PM, Player.2475 said:

Would a healing weapon upset the balance too much?

Is that really a benefit? Part of the scourge healer attraction is the freedom to use any weapon combo I want because the healing and barriers are all from your abilities.  Case in point, I was using sword + warhorn/torch for a while on my aheal scourge because of the utility they provided and recently I'm playing around with staff and pistol/torch.  Why pistol and torch?  For the extra 300 breaker bar damage.  And I still have essentially 2 free ability slots!

Scourge seems to do reasonably well as a healer especially with Scourge 4 being able to partially heal downed allies and pull them to you out of bad aoe's.  Because the barrier is so visible on your own health pool, you can use that to how it must be on your allies too allowing you to pace your barrier generators better.

[Purple Effects.2503]

On 5/27/2024 at 6:49 PM, Player.2475 said:

Would a healing weapon upset the balance too much

For scourge most likely, having large amounts of barrier the best revive In the game along side with its good damage options through necro to stack healing onto least in PvP would be a monster

however to add here. 

you have to really look at this is susposed to be something for necromancer. 

because of how necro works I.e life force. You lose access to ur actual weapons for large amounts of fights. 

your asking for a weapon, which is only usable by 1 specific elite spec effectively. 

and then asking it to apply to that 1 specific elite specc, with 1 specific build. More over a build which is entirely useless to the vast majority of the player base because support role works in 2 low pop game modes and even at that point a small minority of those 2 small populations that actually want to heal. . 

and the issue is, the only part of necro that could use it, don’t need it.

scourge us powerful in a healing role already, what it lacks is boon uptime. Which tbh could be funneled into scourge itself via traits, or utility reworks. 

It’s fine scourge heals in its own way, and maybe trades off abit of direct power for the freedom to use any weapon set ups to help DPs numbers or utility /CC. That’s a strength we have that other classes simply don’t. 

we don’t all need to play exactly like a guardian 

Edited June 12 by Magmi.6723

[Player.2475]

5 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

For scourge most likely, having large amounts of barrier the best revive In the game along side with its good damage options through necro to stack healing onto least in PvP would be a monster

however to add here. 

you have to really look at this is susposed to be something for necromancer. 

because of how necro works I.e life force. You lose access to ur actual weapons for large amounts of fights. 

your asking for a weapon, which is only usable by 1 specific elite spec effectively. 

and then asking it to apply to that 1 specific elite specc, with 1 specific build. More over a build which is entirely useless to the vast majority of the player base because support role works in 2 low pop game modes and even at that point a small minority of those 2 small populations that actually want to heal. . 

and the issue is, the only part of necro that could use it, don’t need it.

scourge us powerful in a healing role already, what it lacks is boon uptime. Which tbh could be funneled into scourge itself via traits, or utility reworks. 

It’s fine scourge heals in its own way, and maybe trades off abit of direct power for the freedom to use any weapon set ups to help DPs numbers or utility /CC. That’s a strength we have that other classes simply don’t. 

we don’t all need to play exactly like a guardian 

That didn't stop them from adding Scepter for revenant. :')

[Purple Effects.2503]

6 hours ago, Player.2475 said:

hat didn't stop them from adding Scepter for revenant

True. 

but you’d hope the company wouldn’t repeat a terrible decision twice Soto weapons flopped hard 

but tbh Sceptre didn’t suck because it conflicted with the classes mechanics, or the fact rev doesn’t have support builds. Sceptre it self sucked because it was just really bad haha 

I think if they released a weapon that bottle necked a class mechanic it’d be somehow a step even worse 

Edited June 13 by Magmi.6723

[Shuzuru.3651]

7 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

True. 

but you’d hope the company wouldn’t repeat a terrible decision twice Soto weapons flopped hard 

but tbh Sceptre didn’t suck because it conflicted with the classes mechanics, or the fact rev doesn’t have support builds. Sceptre it self sucked because it was just really bad haha 

I think if they released a weapon that bottle necked a class mechanic it’d be somehow a step even worse 

Wasn't rev scepter one of the best new weapons along ranger maces?

[Purple Effects.2503]

5 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Wasn't rev scepter one of the best new weapons along ranger maces?

I don’t know at launch, I know now however the only thing the weapon has builds for is 1 heal quickness herald build however. 

wouldn’t really consider that “good”… 

if the weapons completely unused in 90% of content I consider it to be a failure realistically, it’s of barely any impact to the way you play. 

and before you say “that’s all support weapons” it isn’t. 

as far as I was aware thief axe and ranger maces were the ones considered overpowered. 

realistically ironically however, revenant at least have support builds PRIOR its introduction, comparing the launch conditions to necro isn’t realistic because we have nothing for a healing weapon to synergise with

necromancer would directly clash with a healing weapon, outside of scourge spec. You would have a build which ignores its Shroud, that’s degenerate at best. 

Edited June 13 by Magmi.6723

[Shuzuru.3651]

2 hours ago, Magmi.6723 said:

I don’t know at launch, I know now however the only thing the weapon has builds for is 1 heal quickness herald build however. 

wouldn’t really consider that “good”… 

if the weapons completely unused in 90% of content I consider it to be a failure realistically, it’s of barely any impact to the way you play. 

and before you say “that’s all support weapons” it isn’t. 

as far as I was aware thief axe and ranger maces were the ones considered overpowered. 

realistically ironically however, revenant at least have support builds PRIOR its introduction, comparing the launch conditions to necro isn’t realistic because we have nothing for a healing weapon to synergise with

necromancer would directly clash with a healing weapon, outside of scourge spec. You would have a build which ignores its Shroud, that’s degenerate at best. 

Well, that's normal to have support weapons being used in a few build, as there usually isn't a lot a support build for a specific class.

Thief axe is one of the few non support weapon of the batch, si that's normal to see it in multiple build.

If you ask me, ranger maces were probably one of the biggest faillure of the batch as the weapons was way too packed for it's role, if your support weapon is also your best dps weapons, that's a faillure.

Heal alac scourge was a thing already before Soto weapons, so a support weapon would have been fitting too.

And no, necromancer wouldn't interfer with a support weapon, as scourge is the only realistic support spec and don't get its weapon hidden by the shroud.

Also, that wouldn't even cause a problem, as alac  heal druid and alac heal specter exist, 2 class that also got a form on top of their support weapons.

[mirage.8046]

if you wanna open up a can of worms, having a support weapon on necro would be not great to balance around scourge. it used to be easier to control balancing weapons when they were limited to their respective elite specs. now that weaponmaster training has enabled all weapons to be used, that's gone out of the window.

scourge does fine without a support-focused weapon. what actually needs to happen is blood magic traits being reworked and dagger, warhorn, and staff getting serious changes. not much needs to be done.

warhorn could pulse healing and swiftness, have blast finishers. staff may need some boons like might, vigor, or fury. resistance would be so rad though, especially if it goes to warhorn lol. main-hand dagger and off-hand dagger are lost causes especially with the changes to boon corruption. now's a good time to relook at core weapons instead of shoving a support weapon onto necromancer. 

Edited June 14 by mirage.8046

[Player.2475]

17 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Wasn't rev scepter one of the best new weapons along ranger maces?

I have no idea what gave that impression other than Anet nerfing it within a few days of release, but its impact is pretty negligible. I'd prefer to just use sword/shield than use scepter/shield and struggle with getting a negligible amount of barrier on an ally in exchange for constantly switching targets and fighting against a slow, clunky weapon that will go off cooldown if your target is not within an opening angle of 10° where your character is facing.

If that's what Anet would add for necromancer if they did attempt to add a support weapon, I'd rather just use some DPS/cc option.

[Das Boot.9627]

I would really like a rework on the staff to support, for power we have Dual Sword, Greatsword, axe, focus, warhorn. For condition we have dual dagger, pistol, scepter, torch. And now comes Spear. So I think the staff has become very outdated and weak. I think you could turn her into Support. An example is mesmer, look at the amount of things the mesmer staff does.

[Shuzuru.3651]

1 hour ago, Player.2475 said:

I have no idea what gave that impression other than Anet nerfing it within a few days of release, but its impact is pretty negligible. I'd prefer to just use sword/shield than use scepter/shield and struggle with getting a negligible amount of barrier on an ally in exchange for constantly switching targets and fighting against a slow, clunky weapon that will go off cooldown if your target is not within an opening angle of 10° where your character is facing.

If that's what Anet would add for necromancer if they did attempt to add a support weapon, I'd rather just use some DPS/cc option.

So... you asked for a support weapons but don't want it unless it's like super op?

That's a... strange way to see balance...

[Player.2475]

5 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

So... you asked for a support weapons but don't want it unless it's like super op?

That's a... strange way to see balance...

Is your idea of balance having a healing weapon that is so bad that even healers would rather use a dps weapon?