[SA] are exploiting to glitch inside ebg blue keep

[Zok.4956]

9 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Is that because you duel? I just leave them alone. But I couldn't ID them outside of seeing two people standing off and bowing to each other. 

I respect them because they generally want fair fights where the best player wins and they respect each other.  They usually don't attack weaker beginners who just run by and might just want to do a quick daily.

 

16 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

They know their roles, may be a pain in my backside but I can appreciate their impact and the focus on a goal. When players fall to them or get lured by them they get called gankers. Personally they are roamers and havocs filling roles in the game mode and even if they kill me I can look forward to being sorted with them and would consider them for an alliance in the future since they can impact more while using less. So yes I would say respected.

I can respect players who can make my life difficult and who I lose against. But what I don't like and don't respect is when several players pick on individual beginners like vultures. There is no honor in killing a weak unexperienced beginner. Maybe I'm too old-school. Yes, I know that's part of this PvP mode, but I don't think this kind of predatory behavior is right. 

 

[Zok.4956]

16 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

(Perma) banning players for bug abuse/exploits is problematic, because where to draw the line?

The question no longer arises because Anet had already answered it years ago, when the "ban hammer" was circling from time to time. For example: Gradual sanctions that begin with a warning and then, in the case of repetition, lead to a temporary ban and then eventually to a permanent ban. 

[Zyreva.1078]

11 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

The question no longer arises because Anet had already answered it years ago, when the "ban hammer" was circling from time to time. For example: Gradual sanctions that begin with a warning and then, in the case of repetition, lead to a temporary ban and then eventually to a permanent ban. 

Well yes, when anet very clearly communicates to players that what they are doing is not ok and they keep doing it anyway - further sanctions are appropriate. But that's not really what was talked about here. The posts i was primarily responding to sounded more like "i reported players for doing stuff i don't like and therefore anet should (perma) ban them, period".

Also i don't think that telling players to not do stuff relieves anet from their responsibility to fix said stuff. Banning players - even with appropriate warning beforehand - is not a good long term solution to exploits.

Edited June 19 by Zyreva.1078

[TheGrimm.5624]

26 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

I can respect players who can make my life difficult and who I lose against. But what I don't like and don't respect is when several players pick on individual beginners like vultures. There is no honor in killing a weak unexperienced beginner. Maybe I'm too old-school. Yes, I know that's part of this PvP mode, but I don't think this kind of predatory behavior is right. 

 

I can't speak for everyone roaming, but if I have two targets, I will typically go for a ranked one versus a base level one. Now if there are 30 of these base level players running around zerging without counters, they begin to be become fair game. 

Edit: and don't forget some of those base level players may also be wolf in sheep's clothing being either alt accounts and or sPvP players doing some WvW some ranks can also be questionable. 

Edited June 19 by TheGrimm.5624
Edit: Side note

[Zok.4956]

17 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I can't speak for everyone roaming, but if I have two targets, I will typically go for a ranked one versus a base level one. Now if there are 30 of these base level players running around zerging without counters, they begin to be become fair game. 

Sure. I see it similarly with opponents zergs/clouds. I meant it more like a single player runs to a ruin in the south of an alpine borderland when it's daily and then gets ganked by 3-5 experienced players.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 minute ago, Zok.4956 said:

Sure. I see it similarly with opponents zergs/clouds. I meant it more like a single player runs to a ruin in the south of an alpine borderland when it's daily and then gets ganked by 3-5 experienced players.

Ah, ruins are a weird social interaction on their own, same with the vet's when they were part of the daily. Was funny to see three sides all sharing a vet when it was roamers all meeting up. Personally if I think some one is going for a daily run I will do the mount bounce or dance while capping if we are in the middle of trying to get a lockdown on ruins. So they may infer they will be ok to take after. Some get it, some don't. 

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

If anet suddenly starts banning players for stuff that wasn't sanctioned for years despite their knowledge,

 

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Well yes, when anet very clearly communicates to players that what they are doing is not ok and they keep doing it anyway

It kind of works both ways.  Players come here and repeat, repeat, repeat the idea that no one ever gets banned for an exploit or third-party hacks so then others think they can get away with it.  I can't speak to the situation around the accounts that get reported that never seem to get banned, but to use these outliers as an example of no action at all is misleading.  Players have gotten banned for exploits and hacks.  Anet just doesn't advertise it when the sanctions happen.

Edited June 19 by Chaba.5410

[Zyreva.1078]

34 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Anet just doesn't advertise it when the sanctions happen.

They don't need to. If they are somewhat consistent - which they should be - it will get noticed. Likewise it will get noticed, if little to nothing happens. And maybe you know more than i do, but i have never heard of anyone that was banned specifically for bugging into WvW objectives. And since it isn't a particular rare or new exploit, i think it would eventually get talked about by players.

Also i don't like putting exploits and third-party hacking into the same boat. I know these two are commonly mixed up, but are imo very different things and should be acted upon differently by anet (exploits should be fixed, hackers should be banned). And i think anet does a pretty poor job at either. This doesn't mean, nobody ever gets banned. But certain exploits remain unfixed for far too long and some hackers remain unbanned for far too long (i have a duo on my block list, that has been teleport hacking in WvW for at least two years, just to give an example).

Edited June 19 by Zyreva.1078

[senftube.6081]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

(Perma) banning players for bug abuse/exploits is problematic, because where to draw the line? Bug abusing can happen unintentionally and without knowledge (unlike hacking, no mercy there!). Sure, bugging into structures in WvW doesn't happen accidentially, especially when done repeatedly, but it still begs the question whether it is actual exploiting or simply creative use of game mechanics with anets blessing, especially when considering how long these issues has been in the game with the devs knowing and nothing being done about it. And there are many many more bugs in the game, that are much harder to judge regarding intention from both dev side (bug or not?) and player side (accident or not?).

If anet suddenly starts banning players for stuff that wasn't sanctioned for years despite their knowledge, and that has a high chance of eventually affecting players that weren't intentionally doing anything bad, it creates an atmosphere of fear, and players might start worrying they could be the next innocent victim. Which is probably much worse than players occasionally getting upset about witnessing exploiters.

This doesn't mean players should be free to do whatever they want. Anything that could be unintentional behaviour should be reported - and then it's on the devs to decide whether it needs actual fixing (and then take appropriate action to get it fixed - and personally i do think bugging into structures falls into this category) or whether it is deemed ok.

Also 100% agreement with @Tailbreaker.1540's post - banning entire guilds "just like that" is a no go.

 

It's unacceptable how guilds like SA and Hunt behave in the game. Hunt, in particular, is far worse between the two. Have you seen Drazeh's stream? ArenaNet needs to take action against these toxic players. The game would be much better without such players. They play this game only for harrassing other players and nothing more. When they get banned no one will cry about them.

 

Edited June 19 by senftube.6081

[Zyreva.1078]

27 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

It's unacceptable how guilds like SA and Hunt behave in the game. Hunt, in particular, is far worse between the two. Have you seen Drazeh's stream? ArenaNet needs to take action against these toxic players. The game would be much better without such players.

Guilds don't behave. Players do. And i have very mixed experience with players from both guilds. Same for many other guilds.

And no, i haven't seen Drazeh's stream. So please enlighten me, who did what exactly?

Just keep in mind - ganking is not against the rules and therefore not a bannable offense, as annoying it might be to be on the receiving end (and i've surely been there a lot). Similar applies to throwing blueprints or other stuff, corpse jumping, emoting, or whatever else players can do, that might offend some. Cringy and childish? Yes. Bad manners? Sure. But sanctions should remain within reason - and never based on guild membership. Otherwise WvW might be pretty empty pretty quickly.

I don't want to tell you to "just grow a thicker skin", but don't forget that if you get angry at someone else's behaviour, which you can't change anyway - it's just going to ruin your day, not theirs. And sometimes a little bit of composure can go a long way ...

Edited June 19 by Zyreva.1078

[senftube.6081]

44 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Guilds don't behave. Players do. And i have very mixed experience with players from both guilds. Same for many other guilds.

And no, i haven't seen Drazeh's stream. So please enlighten me, who did what exactly?

Just keep in mind - ganking is not against the rules and therefore not a bannable offense, as annoying it might be to be on the receiving end (and i've surely been there a lot). Similar applies to throwing blueprints or other stuff, corpse jumping, emoting, or whatever else players can do, that might offend some. Cringy and childish? Yes. Bad manners? Sure. But sanctions should remain within reason - and never based on guild membership. Otherwise WvW might be pretty empty pretty quickly.

I don't want to tell you to "just grow a thicker skin", but don't forget that if you get angry at someone else's behaviour, which you can't change anyway - it's just going to ruin your day, not theirs. And sometimes a little bit of composure can go a long way ...

With that mindset, not all NSDAP members would have been considered Nazis back then, right? Everyone knows what these two guilds are doing. People join them because they are aware of their activities. This behavior ruins the fun for others, even to the point where they can no longer play the game because these players are constantly ganking them with superior numbers, following them even when they switch maps, and doing this repeatedly. It’s even more worse when you’re streaming, as you become a target for stream sniping (just look at what happened to Blacksteel or Shadowvision). This is clearly against the Terms of Service.

You could ask Drazeh about what happened with him and Hunt.

In my opinion, when a group is harassing others to the extent that it’s clear their only intention is to harass, they should be punished. Otherwise, your game will end up as a toxic wild west with no rules, driving players away from the mode because of it.

Cling together, swing together.

[bq pd.2148]

34 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Everyone knows what these two guilds are doing. People join them because they are aware of their activities. This behavior ruins the fun for others, even to the point where they can no longer play the game because these players are constantly ganking them with superior numbers, following them even when they switch maps, and doing this repeatedly.

and yet the game should still have clear rules as to what is allowed and what not.

there are plenty of guilds/groups that seek safety in numbers within what is still considered small scale/roaming as they will run from larger groups. but for many of them it does not matter too much as they are still manageable while fighting against them outnumbered.
the members of those two guilds usually tho play good enough that fighting them outnumbered is difficult, especially 1vsX.

in my experience they also only hunt you if you have given them a reason for it. if you are outnumbered and avoid them (at least try) or if you are just another random kill in passing, there is no reason to get invested.
ofc. if you seek fights against them, maybe with some random allies that happen to be there and while doing so actually have some impact in the fight unlike your allies, you might draw their attention. personally i can't be bothered to fight them anymore these days and will only waste my time if someone i know asks for assistance. as they usually don't even do any PPT (outside of SMC), they don't provide any reason to engage them at all.

[senftube.6081]

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

and yet the game should still have clear rules as to what is allowed and what not.

there are plenty of guilds/groups that seek safety in numbers within what is still considered small scale/roaming as they will run from larger groups. but for many of them it does not matter too much as they are still manageable while fighting against them outnumbered.
the members of those two guilds usually tho play good enough that fighting them outnumbered is difficult, especially 1vsX.

in my experience they also only hunt you if you have given them a reason for it. if you are outnumbered and avoid them (at least try) or if you are just another random kill in passing, there is no reason to get invested.
ofc. if you seek fights against them, maybe with some random allies that happen to be there and while doing so actually have some impact in the fight unlike your allies, you might draw their attention. personally i can't be bothered to fight them anymore these days and will only waste my time if someone i know asks for assistance. as they usually don't even do any PPT (outside of SMC), they don't provide any reason to engage them at all.

 The Rules are clear

- Don’t harass other players.

In-game Infractions

The following will result in either a temporary account suspension or permanent account termination, depending upon the severity of the matter:

• Inappropriate in-game behavior, such as obscene, offensive, or racist talk or behavior; abuse of another player; harassment; etc.
• Abusing game exploits

 

Follow peoples to gank them even when they switch maps, jumping on them, vomit on them, streamsnipe and wsp them vulgar kitten is harassment. Same to use S/D to use the bug for getting inside the tower is a clear exploit.

This activity is primarily conducted by these two  guilds and their associates. It is well-known because they have been engaging in it for a long time and several members of these guilds have already received temporary bans at some point.

Someone who has to use exploits to gank people does so with pure intent and certainly not because they are a nice player. Just punish such behavior properly, then these bullies will think twice about continuing to behave so toxically and risking a ban.

Sometimes it is simply necessary for the developer to flex their muscles. If they don't, there will unfortunately always be those who just can't follow the simplest rules. Be normal, be nice even when they are enemies.

very same guilds 3 years ago

Edited June 20 by senftube.6081

[bq pd.2148]

34 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Follow peoples to gank them even when they switch maps, jumping on them, vomit on them, streamsnipe and wsp them vulgar kitten is harassment.

sadly this is not really exclusive to those guilds and is way too common. reports for the whispers does grant time outs tho.
 

36 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Same to use S/D to use the bug for getting inside the tower is a clear exploit.

This activity is primarily conducted by these two  guilds and their associates. It is well-known because they have been engaging in it for a long time and several members of these guilds have already received temporary bans at some point.

have not seen that personally from any of those 2 guild, but indeed it would be nice if anet would fix exploits into objectives or at the very least hand out some time outs for people doing this repeatedly and not just by mistake.
last week and again this week we do have an opponent that has been cheating into structures, not on some throwaway account but as diamond legend, so i play very little WvW this match as i refuse to waste my time with them and instead farm some gold in PvE, got 2 visits from a GM within a week in PvE checking if i am an actual person but they dont have the time to do anything about people getting into structures in unintended ways.

[Zok.4956]

10 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

It kind of works both ways.  Players come here and repeat, repeat, repeat the idea that no one ever gets banned for an exploit or third-party hacks so then others think they can get away with it.

I agree.  That's why it's important that Anet shows publicly (without naming the specific accounts, of course) that there are bans and that Anet is really doing a lot. As a deterrent.

 

10 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I can't speak to the situation around the accounts that get reported that never seem to get banned, but to use these outliers as an example of no action at all is misleading.

Whether they are outliers or not cannot be seen from the outside. Maybe they are, maybe they are not.

 

10 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Players have gotten banned for exploits and hacks.

Yes, they did. Even streamers were sometimes banned. In the past.

 

10 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Anet just doesn't advertise it when the sanctions happen.

There was a time in the past when Anet did tell this publicly when there was a banwave. And also that they don't ban immediately at certain events, but first collect data for a few days in order to be able to identify and ban more hackers/cheaters. But if the same accounts (on the same server) just keep doing this for months and brazenly claim that Anet isn't taking action against them, it seems that these accounts haven't even been warned and Anet is definitely not doing enough.

 

Edited June 20 by Zok.4956

[Chaba.5410]

1 minute ago, Zok.4956 said:

it seems that these accounts haven't even been warned and Anet is definitely not doing enough.

Ironically, there has been a rash of posts here and on reddit just this week of players complaining they were banned and may have been using exitlag, thinking it's a vpn.

Some players I reported a few months ago for exploits got temp bans. Haven't seen them continue exploiting since.

[Zok.4956]

2 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Ironically, there has been a rash of posts here and on reddit just this week of players complaining they were banned and may have been using exitlag, thinking it's a vpn.

I've never heard of this app, but getting banned for using a VPN tool (which does happen and sometimes seems to result in false positive bans) has nothing to do with banning the type of hackers/cheaters this discussion is about. 

[Chaba.5410]

9 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

I've never heard of this app, but getting banned for using a VPN tool (which does happen and sometimes seems to result in false positive bans) has nothing to do with banning the type of hackers/cheaters this discussion is about. 

The players I reported and got temp bans weren't using that app.  The point was actions are taken.  The false positives usually get caught up in a wider dragnet.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 6/19/2024 at 11:59 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

(Perma) banning players for bug abuse/exploits is problematic, because where to draw the line? Bug abusing can happen unintentionally and without knowledge (unlike hacking, no mercy there!). Sure, bugging into structures in WvW doesn't happen accidentially, especially when done repeatedly, but it still begs the question whether it is actual exploiting or simply creative use of game mechanics with anets blessing, especially when considering how long these issues has been in the game with the devs knowing and nothing being done about it. And there are many many more bugs in the game, that are much harder to judge regarding intention from both dev side (bug or not?) and player side (accident or not?).

If anet suddenly starts banning players for stuff that wasn't sanctioned for years despite their knowledge, and that has a high chance of eventually affecting players that weren't intentionally doing anything bad, it creates an atmosphere of fear, and players might start worrying they could be the next innocent victim. Which is probably much worse than players occasionally getting upset about witnessing exploiters.

This doesn't mean players should be free to do whatever they want. Anything that could be unintentional behaviour should be reported - and then it's on the devs to decide whether it needs actual fixing (and then take appropriate action to get it fixed - and personally i do think bugging into structures falls into this category) or whether it is deemed ok.

Also 100% agreement with @Tailbreaker.1540's post - banning entire guilds "just like that" is a no go.

Well obviously you can't ban entire guilds.

But it all comes down to intent. If you glitch into something once or twice it might be an accident. But if it's repeatedly done. that excuse no longer flies. Especially if it's a long term player that isn't exactly new to WvW and can't be like "oh you're not supposed to get into towers" like that.

And honestly, given how lax the rules are, maybe we should have some fear. My other game has a meme about "A kingdom ruled by fear is not worth ruling" from support and in general people just break the rules flagrantly because they know nothing will happen.

I mean obviously it's also on the game's developers to fix their own game first. But playing dumb is not a good excuse either.

Also it's not like they perma ban for the first offense so the fear of wrongful bans is a little overstated.

Edited June 20 by ArchonWing.9480

[RedShark.9548]

I highly advise using nvidea shadowplay or something similar. It doesnt use as much computer power as some think. It records in the backround and deletes the footage after a set amount of time. (i always have it 5minutes). If you see something like that happening you press the shortcut to save the last 5 minutes of gameplay. That wqy you dont have to know when to start a recording, you can do it afterwards. 

I reported 2 ppl recebtly like that and got positive feedback from the support. Just uploaded the vid to youtube and linked it to them.

[senftube.6081]

12 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well obviously you can't ban entire guilds.

 

ArenaNet did that, they did ban and/or force renamed a whole guild in the past.

We should stop defending well-known harasser guilds. These players participate in the game solely to cause trouble, and it is justifiable for the developers to say, "We do not want these kinds of players in our game." Ultimately, no community or developer wants such players at all. Such players harm the product immensely and  in extreme cases, can even lead to financial loss.

 

Even though it is a game, there are boundaries that should not be crossed. What I have seen and heard from these guilds is simply disturbing—no respect, no conscience, wintrading and it gets even worse when they resort to using exploits

I would really appreciate it if ArenaNet finally started cracking down harder in this regard. PvP is not dead just because the mode is boring, but due to manipulation, toxic behavior, and other issues. ArenaNet enforces stricter rules here on the forum than in the game itself which is sad.

 

https://www.taskus.com/insights/changing-the-game-the-effects-of-toxicity-on-player-behavior/

Edited June 21 by senftube.6081

[One more for the road.8950]

Well, I know for sure there's people that gets banned, so anyone thinking nobody gets banned is in the wrong.

The reasons they get banned also differs, but there's been ppl claiming they have been banned for language that's been known to use ....other things. No way to verify which one it was.

That said, there's not as much cheat and hacks as ppl claim there is, I keep seeing ppl saying other ppl cheat or hack when it's clearly lag, in game exploits or just that whoever complain doesn't actually know the others skills and traits or can even see a tell.

[senftube.6081]

7 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Well, I know for sure there's people that gets banned, so anyone thinking nobody gets banned is in the wrong.

The reasons they get banned also differs, but there's been ppl claiming they have been banned for language that's been known to use ....other things. No way to verify which one it was.

That said, there's not as much cheat and hacks as ppl claim there is, I keep seeing ppl saying other ppl cheat or hack when it's clearly lag, in game exploits or just that whoever complain doesn't actually know the others skills and traits or can even see a tell.

The Tower S/D thing is no lag. It is an Exploit because you use it for getting into the tower which is not open.

 

 

It needs to get fixed once for all.

 

and there are hackers in the game aswell

 

Edited June 21 by senftube.6081

[One more for the road.8950]

7 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

The Tower S/D thing is no lag. It is an Exploit because you use it for getting into the tower which is not open.

 

 

It needs to get fixed once for all.

 

and there are hackers in the game aswell

 

Might wanna remove some of that to not get a three day forum ban, not sure how they do things these days.

But also, some new invisible walls have come up as well, there's places you could exploit into before that you can't anymore. Like some places with warclaw. Not sure how long ago, though.

Edited June 21 by One more for the road.8950

[senftube.6081]

Just now, One more for the road.8950 said:

Might wanna remove some of that to not get a three day forum ban, not sure how they do things these days.

But also, some new invisible walls have come up as well, there's places you could exploit into before that you can't anymore. Like some places with warclaw.

Exactly, that's the problem. People who point out these issues and need footage to be believed are punished more severely than those who commit the offenses in-game. That's not right, and I hope ArenaNet sees this and finally makes a turn and takes it seriously. I used an old video on purpose, and yes, most of the exploits are no longer possible.