Say It How It Is Balance Discussion

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

You guys don't try hard enough to create discussions anymore so here you go.

It's based off 5v5 conquest performance:

1. Vindicator - Death Drop is dealing too much damage for the amount of counter-offensive pressure it applies. It needs to be nerfed.
2. Staff Spellbreaker - It isn't the metabattle version with mending that's the problem. The problem is the Defiant Stance variants that sacrifice all damage to be an adamantine boulder that requires 2 to 3 very experienced DPS to get off a node. Over the years due to power creep, Defiant Stance has become too strong. It needs to be turned down from 100% inc damage heal to 50% inc damage heal.
3. Deadeye - The only reason people think this class is good, is because the people who run speed/tele hack on it make it look good. When played legitimately, this class is still a complete liability to have on your team.
4. Reaper - It's just bloated as hell lately after what SOTO brought to it. What was once a slow powerful full melee tank, has become a fast powerful ranged tank. It has too much of everything and it needs to lose something.
5. Unga Bunga Untamed - Mace/mace/hammer is like real strong against certain things, and then it gets hard countered by other things. You can claim it's OP in some match ups but in others it's just bad and actually incapable of dealing with certain archetypes, particularly highly mobile ranged attackers. I'd agree it's obnoxious, but OP? I dunno man.
6. Chrono Support - I don't really care about it. It's strange to see a Chrono Support become favorable over Guard Support or Tempest Support but it's w/e. I don't really feel like it's OP.
7. Willbender - I'm seeing some VERY strong play from Willbender lately. I don't think I'd say it's OP, but it is very strong.
8. Tool Holos & Scrappers - Still relevant, but they take the backseat to the above listed builds. I still personally feel that Slick Shoes is jank though. It shouldn't be a force wall effect like Line Of Ward or Ring Of Ward. You should be able to evade over Slick Shoes.
9. Soulbeasts & Druids - Soulbeast is still relevant like Holos & Scrappers but takes a backseat to those same currently powerful build structures. Druid is still strong and the only thing keeping it from being a top side node are Staff Spellbreakers & Unga Bunga Untamed.
10. Harbinger & Scourge - These can still perform well despite the popularity of Reaper. Scourge also has a very strong niche strength in 2v2s & 3v3s.
11. DP Daredevils & SD Daredevils - Still relevant, but again, certain OP specs are currently shutting down the thunder of their job role.
12. Dragonhunter - It's still good! It's just not as good as a Willbender.
13. Core Guard & Firebrand - It's like they're still relevant as support but other things are better options. Also, playing Willbender DPS is just more impactful than any Guard Support.
14. Specter - It's really fallen out since SOTO content. It did not benefit from SOTO content like other classes did.
15. Power Shatter Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage/Virtuoso - Can still be relevant but they need to be wielded by very experienced players, or they're just a liability.
16. Condi based Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage/Virtuoso - These aren't doing so well lately pvp. Lots of reasons why they've fallen out. Doing fine in wvw though, still top roamers.
17. Berserker - It's like Condiserk is still relevant but then it isn't. Other things do it's job better. Powerserk is aight in 1v1s, but just isn't good in conquest due to being prone to 2v1 focus.
18. Herald - It aint what it used to be, power or condi. Vindicator has taken over. I doubt the new patch will make too much of a difference here. Could be wrong though.
19. Catalyst & Tempest - For the first time 600 years, they're performing at medium levels and it needs to stay that way. kekekekekekek
20. Weaver - It's straight up underperforming at this point.
21. War - Rev - Engi - Rang - Thief - Ele - Hey it's a bunch of core classes what do you want? They define suboptimal play. Even though good players can make it look like they're strong, they aren't.
22. Bladesworn - Seriously, I see more people using Core War than I see using Bladesworn. At some point when no one was paying attention, this spec started heading towards bottom tier.
23. Renegade - The SOTO content removed any reason that made Ren worth playing. Its better counterparts all get shortbow now, and the only other thing that makes Ren important in wvw or pve, which is its alacrity output, is negligent in pvp due to skill splits & gear limitations. This class is actually disabled from play currently. It didn't gain anything from SOTO content. The SOTO content hurt this class waaaaay more than it helped it. The skill splits in pvp need to be fixed or it needs to buffed or something.
24. Mechanist - This class was directly nerfed too hard. A Core Engi has more performance value than a Mechanist at this point. This spec deserves some serious direct hard buffing.
25. Necromancer - This is currently the worst of the worst bottom tier. It has no offensive potential. Due to this, it doesn't have enough counter-offensive pressure to defend itself. Even when it's in shroud it feels squishy anymore. The problem is that Core Necro shroud is just outdated and needs some very direct hard buffing in the DPS department.

Overall, despite a few outlier issues, the balance aint that bad right now.

Edited June 25 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[ccccc.4963]

you gotta stop

[Gotejjeken.1267]

inb4 topic deletion cause mods like to troll Trev

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

20 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

inb4 topic deletion cause mods like to troll Trev

Best part is seeing how many confused faces I can farm.

[Myror.7521]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 i was at first irritated cause you said defiant Stance xp. But yea i also met some unkillable core warrs using it ^^ so it does makes sence ^^

[WingSwipe.3084]

The only thing keeping Bladesworn afloat was its defensive potential, and since Dragon Slash does less damage then auto attacking in PvP the only utility it gave was its unblockable CC.

With the CC removal and the nerfs to Unshakable Mountain really was the nail in its coffin for PvP plays, that and the rework to Daring Dragon.

[Kyraios.8954]

Nah fam. Ranger specs are busted. 

[Sahne.6950]

I think its crazy how you cant see 1 bit beyond your own bias...

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Staff Spellbreaker - It isn't the metabattle version with mending that's the problem. The problem is the Defiant Stance variants that sacrifice all damage to be an adamantine boulder that requires 2 to 3 very experienced DPS to get off a node. Over the years due to power creep, Defiant Stance has become too strong. It needs to be turned down from 100% inc damage heal to 50% inc damage heal.

SPB needs a nerf... got it.

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Unga Bunga Untamed - Mace/mace/hammer is like real strong against certain things, and then it gets hard countered by other things. You can claim it's OP in some match ups but in others it's just bad and actually incapable of dealing with certain archetypes, particularly highly mobile ranged attackers. I'd agree it's obnoxious, but OP? I dunno man.

OONGABOONGA..... clearly obnoxious, but doesnt need a nerf.....  got it.

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Soulbeasts & Druids - Soulbeast is still relevant like Holos & Scrappers but takes a backseat to those same currently powerful build structures. Druid is still strong and the only thing keeping it from being a top side node are Staff Spellbreakers & Unga Bunga Untamed.

Druid is viable for Sidenode,  only things above it..... are Untamed and SPB.....  got it.

 

So we nerf Spb........    but leave untamed and druid untouched... 👀    what does that lead to?  

Whats the result, if this goes thru?  Think about it.    Who are the top 2 Sidenoders, if we would blindly follow your suggestions?

 

I really dont agree with your assesments regarding the ranger profession.

Edited June 26 by Sahne.6950

[WingSwipe.3084]

Also, people only played CondiZerk for the Akeem Skullgrinder combo.

When ANYTHING better then that degenerate play style came around it was dropped like a hot potato.

This also fell off a bit after the Berserker survivability nerfs which didnt even need to happen. To fix the Skullgrinder issue you just needed to remove ONE STACK OF CONFUSION from the primal burst. The blanket nerfs affected PowerZerker pretty hard too.

[Shagie.7612]

5 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I think its crazy how you cant see 1 bit beyond your own bias....

are you new to trevor posts

anyways the gap between those "outliers" (really it's like the bottom half of builds) vs the top is pretty large
i don't think that counts as decent balance, especially if you're an enjoyer of the stuff on the bottom of the totem pole 😕

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Best part is seeing how many confused faces I can farm.

I would say it's because your title implies you wanting to start a discussion. 

But instead, all you did is a list that has no rime or reason until you are like 70% in and it finally clicks that this is a ranking of how strong the spec's are. From strong to weak. 

Which you simply didn't state that this would be the purpose of the list. 

Without context, which we have find ourselves, your post doesn't make sense.

Note: I don't disagree with you. Just the way the information is presented could need some work. 

 

Edited June 26 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Sereath.1428]

Pretty decent observations tbh.
Much better than the average post here: "kitten this spec spamming and doing everything at once. I don't know what exactly to point out, so just nerf everything."
However, you could have "won" more supporters by being a little more critical of Rangers, at least a spec.

Edited June 26 by Sereath.1428

[Spellhunter.9675]

Trevor dropped out of forum meta.
Anet needs to buff him:

• The number of controversial points in Trevor's posts has been incresed by 50%.
• The number of words in Trevor's posts has been increased by 70%.
• Trevor's game knowledge has been increased by 30% (in PvE only).

[shion.2084]

"3. Deadeye - The only reason people think this class is good, is because the people who run speed/tele hack on it make it look good. When played legitimately, this class is still a complete liability to have on your team."

I think this class is very strong in the right hands... It is not always a liability.   There's folks like ooou aaah or whatever that has a condi build on DE that's pretty brutal.    I'd also say that daredevil pistol sword is one of the top classes out there.
 

[Myror.7521]

@Sahne.6950 when you mean it like this then this would lead in a totaly favor for ranger cause the thing that holds it currently in line is spellbreaker xD

You would have to nerf both at the same time ^^

Edited June 26 by Myror.7521

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I think its crazy how you cant see 1 bit beyond your own bias

The only bias going on here is the bandwagon against me in this subforum. I'll post the realest **** anyone has ever heard and get 20 confused faces + a bunch of hate spam, but if anyone else had posted that same thing, they'll get 20 likes and people agreeing. I've very seriously seen people copy/paste nearly my exact statements out of my confused face farm threads, and use them in their own posts or even on-stream, and if it doesn't come from trev, everyone agrees with it.

Look, what happened is there is this group in NA who doesn't like me because they blame me for exposing the things they do. This group is a lot smaller than they appear, but they play & post on many different alt accounts and they are good at making a group of 10 people look like 100 different people. They like to make it look like "everyone hates trev" and it works. Then people just sort of join in on it because well, that's just what people do. It's a very sociological human effect, and it works. People don't even question why they're doing it. It's called clan mentality, and it's a built-in survival mechanism for people to adhere to the masses instead of going against it, so they are accepted, instead of fought against.

For example:

I post the first completely serious discussion thread that this subforum has seen in months, for the sake of community interaction, to give us something to actually talk about & discuss. The forum is boring when it's just a bunch of one liner complaints & troll comments that aren't even detailed enough to respond to. If anyone else had dropped this exact same assessment, I've seen your responses to other users, you'd have come in here respectfully with constructive feedback. You'd have likely commented that you disagreed with the Unga Bunga placement, but you'd have done it quaintly. Then you'd have probably progressed into the things you agreed with, and then moved onto the things that you lightly disagreed with and commented on alternative types of changes that could be made. But when it was posted by me, you completely ignored everything else in the post except the one thing you didn't like. Then you hard focused your response on that one thing, with the sole motive to discredit my entire post, completely disregarding the things that you likely agreed with, or would normally have given feedback on, just because trev posted it.

The question is, why?

I've always liked & respected you man. If you dislike me that much, then go for it. Whatever it is you do, just make sure you're thinking for yourself.

 

7 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Note: I don't disagree with you. Just the way the information is presented could need some work.

It was a time issue thing. What happened is I had woken up, made my coffee, sat down to write a very thorough balance assessment that was originally like 4x longer than what was listed here. It displayed the usual S tier / A tier / B tier / C tier / D tier, with paragraph long breakdowns as to "Why" for each archetype. It took me like 4 hours to do. Then when I went to push "submit post" my internet was randomly down, the page drops and loads a internet connectivity problem page, and I lost all the text. So instead of taking another 4 hours to rewrite all of it, I just regurgitated a summary in 10 minutes, which is what you see here.

Hey, sometimes it happens.

 

7 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Pretty decent observations tbh.
Much better than the average post here: "kitten this spec spamming and doing everything at once. I don't know what exactly to point out, so just nerf everything."
However, you could have "won" more supporters by being a little more critical of Rangers, at least a spec.

Thanks for acknowledging the effort, appreciated.

But yeah, I'm a Ranger main of 12 years and I know the class up & down. I can see what a Ranger is running or not running in about 4 seconds of approaching it, looking at its weapons, and viewing its name-bar status icons. I know how to bait them and create opportunities for kill threat. No matter what build a Ranger is running, I don't have an issue engaging them, regardless of what class I'm running. In this regard, you could say that I am "biased", but it isn't a conscious effort to like defend Ranger. It's that I very seriously just don't have problems dealing with Ranger builds and so it's hard for me to gauge when they may be overperforming vs. people who can't read it like book in the same way old Ranger mains can. This often makes me feel like: "Ranger complaints are a l2p issue".

 

4 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Trevor dropped out of forum meta.
Anet needs to buff him:

• The number of controversial points in Trevor's posts has been incresed by 50%.
• The number of words in Trevor's posts has been increased by 70%.
• Trevor's game knowledge has been increased by 30% (in PvE only).

No, I got nerfed bro. The actual patch looked more like this:

We noticed that Trev was overperforming in the forum so we decided to normalize the standardization of his posts.

• 50% of Trev's posts will be selected at random for deletion.
• Made exceptions in the TOS to allow users to harass Trev but if Trev responds at all, the post will be deleted.
• Allowed users to use as many alt accounts as they wish, to spam an unlimited amount of confused faces on Trev's posts.
• Added 2 permanent warn points to Trev because he posted real feedback completely focused on in-game mechanics.

The strange awkward humor in this, is that I'm being serious.

 

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

I think this class is very strong in the right hands... It is not always a liability.   There's folks like ooou aaah or whatever that has a condi build on DE that's pretty brutal.    I'd also say that daredevil pistol sword is one of the top classes out there.

DE can be alright at times. But it's one of those classes that gets shut down hard if one of its counters is present.

Daredevil builds are still very strong. Honestly I see better performance from DP Daredevil & lately SD Daredevil that I do Deadeye.

And aside from the complaints we see from time to time, I personally don't see very strong performance from any axe thief variants. Even in wvw, DP & SD Daredevils running marauder are just better, lays down way more threatening pressure when played correctly, and has way better disengage for being a roamer.

[Endo.1652]

Lord have mercy. I dunno if my attention span can read all this man

[Vinny.7260]

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Vindicator - Death Drop is dealing too much damage for the amount of counter-offensive pressure it applies. It needs to be nerfed.

It's mostly an issue with the amount of iframes it can stack. It's basically doing what Mirage was able to eons back.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Staff Spellbreaker - It isn't the metabattle version with mending that's the problem. The problem is the Defiant Stance variants that sacrifice all damage to be an adamantine boulder that requires 2 to 3 very experienced DPS to get off a node. Over the years due to power creep, Defiant Stance has become too strong. It needs to be turned down from 100% inc damage heal to 50% inc damage heal.

Defiant Stance is fine, it's probably THE only sidenoder spec that can properly do its job. It does have its counters though. I don't think Defiant Stance needs nerfed though.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Deadeye - The only reason people think this class is good, is because the people who run speed/tele hack on it make it look good. When played legitimately, this class is still a complete liability to have on your team.

The reason people think it's good is because it's capable of rotating rapidly and sticking to team fights, mostly due to Shadow Portal allowing them to move between nodes quickly. It isn't going to immediately destroy an entire team with someone who camps off node. Their job is to +1 or snipe targets that can't catch them.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Reaper - It's just bloated as hell lately after what SOTO brought to it. What was once a slow powerful full melee tank, has become a fast powerful ranged tank. It has too much of everything and it needs to lose something.

I personally believe Deathly Chill just needs an ICD. Gets rid of the insane synergy with Relic of the Reaper applying 3 stacks of bleeding, because of Chilling Nova, immediately with "Suffer!". Death Magic might need looked at again considering it's just a better Soul Reaping at this point. Might be worth mentioning that "Nothing Can Save You!" has a 16 second cool down, when every other unblockable is 25+ seconds. References to other unblockables: Signet of Might and Signet of the Hunt.

I'd say just start with increasing "Nothing Can Save You!" 's CD to 25s and giving Deathly Chill a 1s ICD PER TARGET.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Unga Bunga Untamed - Mace/mace/hammer is like real strong against certain things, and then it gets hard countered by other things. You can claim it's OP in some match ups but in others it's just bad and actually incapable of dealing with certain archetypes, particularly highly mobile ranged attackers. I'd agree it's obnoxious, but OP? I dunno man.

Mace/Mace Hammer is still problematic, especially since they just buffed Jaguar to give an instant-cast stealth with ZERO REASONABLE counterplay. Untamed can still die if they can't play it well. Smokescale + Jaguar allows for combo field Smoke Field and instant-cast stealth (such as when CC'd). I was fighting Anya a few times yesterday (with LR Weaver) and the fight would take forever just because of how much stealth and reset potential the setup has. I'm suspecting they're going to nerf Smokescale in the future. We've even got people like Boyce questioning the lack of nerfs to Ranger.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Chrono Support - I don't really care about it. It's strange to see a Chrono Support become favorable over Guard Support or Tempest Support but it's w/e. I don't really feel like it's OP.

Still kicking despite all the nerfs its received. I doubt it'll be a long term stay with things shifting gradually. Chrono Support is very squishy compared to Guard Support, but it offers a lot of boons in turn... Can people learn how to use the portal please?

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Willbender - I'm seeing some VERY strong play from Willbender lately. I don't think I'd say it's OP, but it is very strong.

It's a gimmicky spec at best right now, some people like to use "Feel my Wrath!" with Relic of the Sunless to try to burst someone down. It'll beat up the newbies, but the vets see them as food. Just wait the F3 out.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Tool Holos & Scrappers - Still relevant, but they take the backseat to the above listed builds. I still personally feel that Slick Shoes is jank though. It shouldn't be a force wall effect like Line Of Ward or Ring Of Ward. You should be able to evade over Slick Shoes.

Tools Holosmith might be forced to take the backseat due to the nerfs to Surprise Shot and Particle Accelerator. Apparently the devs want Nade Holo to be the staple for Holosmith rather than Tools, but Elixirs are starting to fall behind with all the power creep. As for Scrapper, it's forced to use pretty much everything in its kit. 3-4 gyros and Nade kit. Slick Shoes is their strongest CC and they give up damage/sustain to use it.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Soulbeasts & Druids - Soulbeast is still relevant like Holos & Scrappers but takes a backseat to those same currently powerful build structures. Druid is still strong and the only thing keeping it from being a top side node are Staff Spellbreakers & Unga Bunga Untamed.

Soulbeast is carried by Griffon Stance right now. If that stance gets poked even a little Soulbeast is going down a notch or two. Druid is an alternative to the Mace/Mace Hammer Untamed build, but sometimes uses Sword/Warhorn instead of Hammer, it has more cleanse, sustain, and CC with less pet damage.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Harbinger & Scourge - These can still perform well despite the popularity of Reaper. Scourge also has a very strong niche strength in 2v2s & 3v3s.

Harbinger is far too glassy, but it can be carried by a good Necromancer player, but they play Harbinger for flavor rather than viability. They play Reaper and get far more results. (Such as Ckod). Scourge is too squishy for 5v5s, and it shouldn't be a strong pick for 5v5s. It can stay strong in 2v2s/3v3s.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

DP Daredevils & SD Daredevils - Still relevant, but again, certain OP specs are currently shutting down the thunder of their job role.

D/P Daredevil is okay, but S/D is far stronger right now due to unblockable and built-in cleanse thanks to Acrobatics. S/D is capable of shutting down Catalyst and Spellbreaker thanks to the unblockables. It's a strong contender with Deadeye in terms of best in slot, but it's not currently shared what the meta build is for it.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Dragonhunter - It's still good! It's just not as good as a Willbender.

Great for zoning and shutting down the newbies.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Core Guard & Firebrand - It's like they're still relevant as support but other things are better options. Also, playing Willbender DPS is just more impactful than any Guard Support.

Depends on the comp, but they can be better than Support Chrono depending on the mobility of the comp and map. As for Core Guard versus Firebrand, Firebrand offers more utility but requires playing the piano in high-intensity situations.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Specter - It's really fallen out since SOTO content. It did not benefit from SOTO content like other classes did.

It's still a strong pick for 5v5s, but gets bullied by Deadeye and S/D Daredevil. It's capable of countering Condi Reaper thanks to Hungering Darkness having a 1s ICD instead of the intended 3s. It should stay that way if they don't touch Condi Reaper.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Power Shatter Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage/Virtuoso - Can still be relevant but they need to be wielded by very experienced players, or they're just a liability.

Power Mirage is the best out of all the builds currently, Power Chrono is okay but requires dropping Domination for Dueling to deal enough damage. You lose out on Boon Strip and Power Block doing this, but hit FAR harder. Power Mirage allows you to take both Dueling AND Domination, plus you're able to poke from range with Greatsword Ambush. Virtuoso is still a fun flavor pick, but it won't be meta.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Condi based Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage/Virtuoso - These aren't doing so well lately pvp. Lots of reasons why they've fallen out. Doing fine in wvw though, still top roamers.

Condi Mirage is very glassy still, Condi Chronomancer is gimmicky about stacking a bunch of phantasms, Condi Virtuoso requires staggering your bursts and can't hold a node or roam.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Berserker - It's like Condiserk is still relevant but then it isn't. Other things do it's job better. Powerserk is aight in 1v1s, but just isn't good in conquest due to being prone to 2v1 focus.

CZerker can still do its job, but it's a niche pick right now. You're better off going Spellbreaker or Hammer Untamed. Does the same job but offers more to the table, such as boon strip and AoE projectile hate. They have no idea what to do with Power Zerker...

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Herald - It aint what it used to be, power or condi. Vindicator has taken over. I doubt the new patch will make too much of a difference here. Could be wrong though.

The recent buffs might make it a better choice, but it's still going to be inferior to Vindicator by a long shot. They probably want Herald to be a Condi spec.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Catalyst & Tempest - For the first time 600 years, they're performing at medium levels and it needs to stay that way. kekekekekekek

Hammer Catalyst is bullied by DE, S/D Daredevil, and loses to Untamed, which is the only strong Catalyst build right now. D/D can work but you can get sniped pretty easily. Condi Tempest got some buffs with Dagger mainhand getting buffed,  you might see it around more. It won't be meta though.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Weaver - It's straight up underperforming at this point.

<Insert Rant Here> Devs aren't sure what to do with Weaver. They keep nerfing the builds that gave Weaver any sort of relevance. They need to seriously look at all the Dual Attacks and give them some revitalization. I've got a handful of suggestions but fighting the demons of "why bother?" considering we've got a Ele Main on the dev team who's having giggle fits about Haboobs.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

War - Rev - Engi - Rang - Thief - Ele - Hey it's a bunch of core classes what do you want? They define suboptimal play. Even though good players can make it look like they're strong, they aren't.

They can do things, but why do less things with less tools.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Bladesworn - Seriously, I see more people using Core War than I see using Bladesworn. At some point when no one was paying attention, this spec started heading towards bottom tier.

They nerfed Bladesworn, it shouldn't be in PvP with its current design, even in PvE Bladesworns don't like playing Bladesworn. It's a mechanical nightmare for balance.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Renegade - The SOTO content removed any reason that made Ren worth playing. Its better counterparts all get shortbow now, and the only other thing that makes Ren important in wvw or pve, which is its alacrity output, is negligent in pvp due to skill splits & gear limitations. This class is actually disabled from play currently. It didn't gain anything from SOTO content. The SOTO content hurt this class waaaaay more than it helped it. The skill splits in pvp need to be fixed or it needs to buffed or something.

Renegade just received decent buffs and some people are playing some sort of bunker sidenode builds, it might have a chance if any of the revs are willing to cook with it. But it's overshadowed by Vindicator still.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Mechanist - This class was directly nerfed too hard. A Core Engi has more performance value than a Mechanist at this point. This spec deserves some serious direct hard buffing.

This is another design that just shouldn't be in PvP. It's a mechanical nightmare to balance. They'd have to change the design for it to feel remotely like Engineer. Don't buff it as it'll encourage builds that aren't healthy. Change the design. Revamp.

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Necromancer - This is currently the worst of the worst bottom tier. It has no offensive potential. Due to this, it doesn't have enough counter-offensive pressure to defend itself. Even when it's in shroud it feels squishy anymore. The problem is that Core Necro shroud is just outdated and needs some very direct hard buffing in the DPS department.

Believe it or not, but Terrormancer counters some of the meta specs right now. The weakness is that it's ungodly slow.

 

TL;DR: I disagree with some of the points, expand on some of the points, and clarify some things.

Edited June 26 by Vinny.7260

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

50 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

TL;DR: I disagree with some of the points, expand on some of the points, and clarify some things.

Was a good response, ty ty.

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Sahne.6950 when you mean it like this then this would lead in a totaly favor for ranger cause the thing that holds it currently in line is spellbreaker xD

You would have to nerf both at the same time ^^

AHAAAA !

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The only bias going on here is the bandwagon against me in this subforum. I'll post the realest **** anyone has ever heard and get 20 confused faces + a bunch of hate spam, but if anyone else had posted that same thing, they'll get 20 likes and people agreeing. I've very seriously seen people copy/paste nearly my exact statements out of my confused face farm threads, and use them in their own posts or even on-stream, and if it doesn't come from trev, everyone agrees with it.

Look, what happened is there is this group in NA who doesn't like me because they blame me for exposing the things they do. This group is a lot smaller than they appear, but they play & post on many different alt accounts and they are good at making a group of 10 people look like 100 different people. They like to make it look like "everyone hates trev" and it works. Then people just sort of join in on it because well, that's just what people do. It's a very sociological human effect, and it works. People don't even question why they're doing it. It's called clan mentality, and it's a built-in survival mechanism for people to adhere to the masses instead of going against it, so they are accepted, instead of fought against.

For example:

I post the first completely serious discussion thread that this subforum has seen in months, for the sake of community interaction, to give us something to actually talk about & discuss. The forum is boring when it's just a bunch of one liner complaints & troll comments that aren't even detailed enough to respond to. If anyone else had dropped this exact same assessment, I've seen your responses to other users, you'd have come in here respectfully with constructive feedback. You'd have likely commented that you disagreed with the Unga Bunga placement, but you'd have done it quaintly. Then you'd have probably progressed into the things you agreed with, and then moved onto the things that you lightly disagreed with and commented on alternative types of changes that could be made. But when it was posted by me, you completely ignored everything else in the post except the one thing you didn't like. Then you hard focused your response on that one thing, with the sole motive to discredit my entire post, completely disregarding the things that you likely agreed with, or would normally have given feedback on, just because trev posted it.

The question is, why?

I've always liked & respected you man. If you dislike me that much, then go for it. Whatever it is you do, just make sure you're thinking for yourself.

 

It was a time issue thing. What happened is I had woken up, made my coffee, sat down to write a very thorough balance assessment that was originally like 4x longer than what was listed here. It displayed the usual S tier / A tier / B tier / C tier / D tier, with paragraph long breakdowns as to "Why" for each archetype. It took me like 4 hours to do. Then when I went to push "submit post" my internet was randomly down, the page drops and loads a internet connectivity problem page, and I lost all the text. So instead of taking another 4 hours to rewrite all of it, I just regurgitated a summary in 10 minutes, which is what you see here.

Hey, sometimes it happens.

 

Thanks for acknowledging the effort, appreciated.

But yeah, I'm a Ranger main of 12 years and I know the class up & down. I can see what a Ranger is running or not running in about 4 seconds of approaching it, looking at its weapons, and viewing its name-bar status icons. I know how to bait them and create opportunities for kill threat. No matter what build a Ranger is running, I don't have an issue engaging them, regardless of what class I'm running. In this regard, you could say that I am "biased", but it isn't a conscious effort to like defend Ranger. It's that I very seriously just don't have problems dealing with Ranger builds and so it's hard for me to gauge when they may be overperforming vs. people who can't read it like book in the same way old Ranger mains can. This often makes me feel like: "Ranger complaints are a l2p issue".

 

No, I got nerfed bro. The actual patch looked more like this:

We noticed that Trev was overperforming in the forum so we decided to normalize the standardization of his posts.

• 50% of Trev's posts will be selected at random for deletion.
• Made exceptions in the TOS to allow users to harass Trev but if Trev responds at all, the post will be deleted.
• Allowed users to use as many alt accounts as they wish, to spam an unlimited amount of confused faces on Trev's posts.
• Added 2 permanent warn points to Trev because he posted real feedback completely focused on in-game mechanics.

The strange awkward humor in this, is that I'm being serious.

 

DE can be alright at times. But it's one of those classes that gets shut down hard if one of its counters is present.

Daredevil builds are still very strong. Honestly I see better performance from DP Daredevil & lately SD Daredevil that I do Deadeye.

And aside from the complaints we see from time to time, I personally don't see very strong performance from any axe thief variants. Even in wvw, DP & SD Daredevils running marauder are just better, lays down way more threatening pressure when played correctly, and has way better disengage for being a roamer.

Challenge accepted

[Endo.1652]

1 hour ago, Vinny.7260 said:

It's still a strong pick for 5v5s, but gets bullied by Deadeye and S/D Daredevil. It's capable of countering Condi Reaper thanks to Hungering Darkness having a 1s ICD instead of the intended 3s. It should stay that way if they don't touch Condi Reaper.

Tbh as long as specter makes good use of its stealth and barrier it gets with stealthing, It should actually just wear down an sd thief over time. Anything that can out stealth an sd thief has a much better time against them.  Put a blind or 2 along with that and you're pretty favored in the fight vs sd. 

Just in a match its a little different cause you can just kill the specter's team mates faster than the specter is trying to kill you.

Deadeye definitely does farm specter, dp thief kind of can too.

Specter seems to be really good at shutting down most support builds though.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Mace/Mace Hammer is still problematic, especially since they just buffed Jaguar to give an instant-cast stealth with ZERO REASONABLE counterplay. Untamed can still die if they can't play it well. Smokescale + Jaguar allows for combo field Smoke Field and instant-cast stealth (such as when CC'd). I was fighting Anya a few times yesterday (with LR Weaver) and the fight would take forever just because of how much stealth and reset potential the setup has. I'm suspecting they're going to nerf Smokescale in the future. We've even got people like Boyce questioning the lack of nerfs to Ranger.

You can reveal Jaguar--it has more counterplay than it did prior to the change now that Stalk isn't a unique skill anymore.  

Nerfing smokescale does less than nothing now that Jaguar is all but mandatory as instant stealth >>> finding wherever the hell the smokescale decides to put the field. 

It may be prudent to swap the CDs though--Stalk on 20s and Smoke Cloud on 35s.  That's enough of a nerf because Jaguar has 8k less HP and way less armor than smokescale, and no damage mitigation like hiding in the field or smoke assault.  

Regardless, Ranger doesn't have a whole lot of stealth opportunities outside: Smokescale cloud, LB #3, Celestial Shadow, Siamoth Feathers, and now Stalk.  If we add the Spear to it, that's an additional if Spear/LB becomes a thing.  Consider both pet stealths require finding a field, or worse, a bundle, and LB #3 can be blocked, evaded, whatever.  This leaves Stalk, Spear #5, and Celestial Shadow as really the only guaranteed ways to enter stealth.  

As always, reveal is your counterplay.

Anyway, a Weaver fight 'taking forever' isn't the same as unwinnable...ele is still a very good counter to ranger if played well.  At most tiers you can practically spam auras and stand on point rotating cleanses, projectile hate, whatever and also blast conditions/damage.  That's why the fight 'took forever' as Ranger literally needs to play cat and mouse to deal with this.

That said, they should pick a balance direction.  Is ranger a stealth heavy roamer +1 like thief, or a stay on the point bruiser? Or does it go in guard direction where each spec basically fills a role? Like WB for roaming, FB for point bunker, DH for either, etc.  

 

Edited June 26 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290my man is cooking memes ;d

[arazoth.7290]

36 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290my man is cooking memes ;d

😂😂😂 😘