Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Thief

[kidbuu.4071]

16 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I think this was mostly by design to keep it simple except on reactive play. Each had their purpose so you stuck to the same chain unless you need to switch things up, like starting with #2 for CC, but if things get hairy, you have the option to switch to #3 for stealth. Conversely, I often used #3 as a gap closer before switching to 2-2-4-3-3-1. If they started to run, my chain after #4 switched to 2-2-4 again. 

Snow Crows has some numbers all builds, core,DE,DD, and Specter pushing over 50k, so I'm not sure... We might get another bonk on the head like with Axe 🪓 

[kidbuu.4071]

I see weapon skill three will make condi core even more viable in competitive mode ( with axe dagger as the pumper). Spear brings poke from range Gap closers 2, heals, and some strips. It could use an evade and at least a few more five-target skills. Again, this is all for competitive mode. A condition cleanse or stun brake or evade on stealth from weapon skill 3 chain would be nice ( give me old school pistol whip w/o giving me pistol whip)

[Endo.1652]

From a pvp perspective, I find the combos in 2 and 3 require you to be almost directly on top of something for the chain attacks to flow. If your target is just a bit off to the side they dont ever land and then youre just stuck spamming the same skill over and over trying to catch the person because the person your fighting is moving around. They have to be standing completely still for you to land anything. The damage these skills do in pvp dont really make up for how hard it is to land a full chain and not die during it. Only one that seems to do good damage is the third hit of 2.

Id like to see something changed either the damage tuned better across the skills or the reliability of them landing in moving targets to at least match even dagger auto chains.

You also dont really get any benefits from changing up the 2 and 3 chains at all.  You either go 2, 2, 2 or 3, 3, 3. Hitting something like 2, 3, 2 makes you actually lose out in all the additional effects each chain gives. 

Because of this and how the block is basically an aegis stack that locks you in animation. The weapon in pvp turns into, spam 3 for mobility and then auto spam someone down from afar.

[Josif.2015]

Barbed Spear: the tooltip doesn't say from what distance Thief can throw the spear. Add the throw range of 900 in the tooltip.
Ashen Assault: reduce the number of bleed and poison stacks from 4 to 2 or 1.
Mantis Sting: remove the cripple and give it to Entangling Asp.
Entangling Asp: increase the initiative cost from 2 to 3 and replace the immobilize with cripple.
Falling Spider: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2.
Unsuspecting Strike: reduce the leap range from 480 to 400.
Vampiric Slash: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and write in the tooltip that it also applies weakness.
Shattering Assault: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and remove the unblockable effect.
Distracting Throw: no changes needed.
Shadow Veil: either increase the initiative cost from 3 to 6 or remove the healing.

Edited July 2 by Josif.2015

[Endo.1652]

45 minutes ago, Josif.2015 said:

Barbed Spear: it doesn't display the from what distance Thief can throw the spear. Add the throw range of 900 in the tooltip.
Ashen Assault: reduce the number of bleed and poison stacks from 4 to 2 or 1.
Mantis Sting: remove the cripple and give it to Entangling Asp.
Entangling Asp: increase the initiative cost from 2 to 3 and replace the immobilize with cripple.
Falling Spider: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2.
Unsuspecting Strike: reduce the leap range from 480 to 400.
Vampiric Slash: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and write in the tooltip that it also applies weakness.
Shattering Assault: increase the initiative cost from 1 to 2 and remove the unblockable effect.
Distracting Throw: no changes needed.
Shadow Veil: either increase the initiative cost from 3 to 6 or remove the healing.

You sound like you dont want spear to be useable at all. Which game mode are you wanting this weapon to be gutted in?

[kidbuu.4071]

54 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

Because of this and how the block is basically an aegis stack that locks you in animation. The weapon in pvp turns into spam 3 for mobility and then auto spam someone down from afar

Well said. It's something I didn't get to elaborate on in my previous post, but yes, even in WVW, that's basically how the weapon is positioned using its defensive capabilities and movement capabilities is the higher priority, and switching to a more proficient weapon to execute your attacks and burst from there. Which I don't think its bad, but then it leaves three other weapon skills on the table that could be improved to be in a more engaging tool in competitive builds. 

[Josif.2015]

6 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

You sound like you dont want spear to be useable at all. Which game mode are you wanting this weapon to be gutted in?

It's not that I don't want spear to be useable. In my opinion, I think that some of thief's spear skills have little initiative cost and can be spammed a lot and the amount of conditions applied could be problematic for PvP and WvW. Hence why I suggested toning down the number of condition stacks applied and increasing the initiative cost for some of the skills at least for those 2 game modes.

[Asur.9178]

3 hours ago, Endo.1652 said:

You sound like you dont want spear to be useable at all. Which game mode are you wanting this weapon to be gutted in?

Considering they have a lot of "increase the initiative cost" in their suggestions, it's obvious they don't know what they are talking about because that's literally the very LAST thing one should ever consider when dealing with Thief weapon skill balances.

Every single suggestion they made (except the tooltip adjustment) sounds like something you'd expect from a person who highly dislikes Thief and wants the class to rot in the deepest darkest corner of the Earth - the Engineer icon is not helping their case.

3 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

It's not that I don't want spear to be useable. In my opinion, I think that some of thief's spear skills have little initiative cost and can be spammed a lot and the amount of conditions applied could be problematic for PvP and WvW. Hence why I suggested toning down the number of condition stacks applied and increasing the initiative cost for some of the skills at least for those 2 game modes.

Did you even participate in the beta?

I didn't come across a single Thief in competitive gamemodes that could do anything relevant at all. The only thing that "worked" was a full zerk/ full glass build against terrible and afk players.

All in all, spear was AWFUL for competitive modes...and here you are suggesting these absurd nerfs already, before the gameplay issues themselves are fixed. What that tells me is that you more than likely didn't spend any kind of sizeable amount of time in the beta (if at all). Just because something looks strong on paper, doesn't mean it is strong in practice.

EDIT: Just did a quick scan of their history - I guess it's a troll or something.

Edited July 2 by Asur.9178

[MKJO.8970]

7 hours ago, Asur.9178 said:

EDIT: Just did a quick scan of their history - I guess it's a troll or something.

Do not take these suggestions serious. I reviewed his history as well - some pretty strange suggestions all over the place.

[Markus.6415]

3 hours ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Do not take these suggestions serious. I reviewed his history as well - some pretty strange suggestions all over the place.

A collector for confused emojis 😅

[BobbyT.7192]

4 hours ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Do not take these suggestions serious. I reviewed his history as well - some pretty strange suggestions all over the place.

The way he write makes me think he is a bot for some reason.

[Endo.1652]

17 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

It's not that I don't want spear to be useable. In my opinion, I think that some of thief's spear skills have little initiative cost and can be spammed a lot and the amount of conditions applied could be problematic for PvP and WvW. Hence why I suggested toning down the number of condition stacks applied and increasing the initiative cost for some of the skills at least for those 2 game modes.

If you had tested the weapon at all you wouldve noticed how very little damage you did compared to other thief weapons. You would of noticed how clunky the radius it requires to even land these chain attacks. It would be more efficient to use any other weapon set. Trying to land a full chain on a willbender or literally anything just gets you killed fast. Even in PvE sometimes I felt that it was super easy to be downstated because of how commited you are in melee.

Right now, the weapon is just a utility weapon. Even the low initiative costs are not worth it cause you spent too much time to do somethimg that gets you killed and the defensives don't do the right things to really keep you alive. Also the stealth attack is one of the most hardest to fully land out of all the thief weapons. 

Edited July 3 by Endo.1652
To clarify that in pve the problem isnt the dmg. Thats the problem in pvp.

[MKJO.8970]

1 hour ago, Endo.1652 said:

If you had tested the weapon at all you wouldve noticed how very little damage you did compared to other thief weapons. You would of noticed how ckunky the radius it requires to even land these chain attacks. It would be more efficient to use any other weapon set. Trying to land a full chain on a willbender or literally anything just gets you killed fast. Even in PvE sometimes I felt that.

Right now, the weapon is just a utility weapon. Even the low initiative costs are not worth it cause you spent too much time to do somethimg that gets you killed and the defensives don't do the right things to really keep you alive. Also the stealth attack is one of the most hardest to fully land out of all the thief weapons. 

Incera GW2 - YouTube

I think you should go check out these benchmark videos.

[Endo.1652]

14 minutes ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Incera GW2 - YouTube

I think you should go check out these benchmark videos.

Im talking about in pvp and probably the same for WvW too. Thats why I asked what mode the guy was talking about on his choice for asking for nerfs. Talking to me about benchmarks for PvE has nothing to do with how well it performs in pvp sadly

Edited July 3 by Endo.1652

[Endo.1652]

8 minutes ago, MKJO.8970 said:

Incera GW2 - YouTube

I think you should go check out these benchmark videos.

Even just skimming over the videos. The dmg in pve does seem nice though at least. Tbh it probably will be pretty hard to do in actual raids without dying.

[vardeleanu.8972]

Ranged stealth attack please

Change skill 1 melee animation too, and either make 2 tooltips for the different ranges, or include the bonus melee strike in the description at least

Pretty good otherwise. The block is a nice touch.

Edited July 3 by vardeleanu.8972

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

3 hours ago, vardeleanu.8972 said:

Ranged stealth attack please

Change skill 1 melee animation too, and either make 2 tooltips for the different ranges, or include the bonus melee strike in the description at least

Pretty good otherwise. The block is a nice touch.

I'd like the block to act like Shroud of Distress in GW1. It would be similar...however it should be:

 

What it currently is,  BUT if used 50% Health or lower, costs 1 less initiative and would block the next attacks as per current description. Would give it more flare and use.

 

I'm sure someone could make a very nice suggestion or mockup of what I'm getting at.  Just look up Shroud of Distress gw1

[paper.6230]

In PvP and WvW the only thing Spear is good for is mobility.

Congratulations on designing another weapon that will be dead on release in competitive gamemodes 👏 Buffing damage won't redeem it.

I hope in future someone who actually plays, enjoys, and understands this class will take over the designing job.

[MKJO.8970]

16 hours ago, Endo.1652 said:

Even just skimming over the videos. The dmg in pve does seem nice though at least. Tbh it probably will be pretty hard to do in actual raids without dying.

I raided with this weapon, and I never died. Did all 7 wings with no problems. DPS was way too high though for condi. Power damage was a joke 🙂

[Doggie.3184]

Did they mess up underwater Spear during their shenanigans? I don't recall Flanking Dive's loop around enemy being straight to enemy's back instead of their side, it's missing smaller enemies very often when the loop around movement triggers.

[Loboling.5293]

Skill chains shouldn't reset when an attack misses or is blocked. 

Stealth attack needs a ranged option. I'd say, make it a targetted leap, like a harpoon that pulls you into melee. Damage is applied when the thief reaches the target. Could even just do the normal stealth attack thrust at that point. 

 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

11 hours ago, Loboling.5293 said:

Skill chains shouldn't reset when an attack misses or is blocked. 

Stealth attack needs a ranged option. I'd say, make it a targetted leap, like a harpoon that pulls you into melee. Damage is applied when the thief reaches the target. Could even just do the normal stealth attack thrust at that point. 

 

 

"Skewer"
Stealth Attack. Ranged. same range as other ranged skills on thief spear
Throw a shadowy spear towards your target piercing up to 4 extra targets behind the target. 
Will apply x Bleeding and X vulnerabity. Extra targets hit will apply extra stacks on those already hit including the extra targets. If 5 are hit, all targets are additionally inflicted with immobilize for 3.5s

*so basically if i hit 1 guy he might get 3 Bleed and 3 vulnerability. If i hit a buddy/pet or whatever behind him ALONG with him, they BOTH get 3 more each of bleed and vulnerability. but if i hit all 5, they all get immobilized.
 

Malicious Skewer
would be the same but if per player hit it would add more conditions and 1 extra vulnerability. 2 foes = cripple, 3 foes=torment, 4 foes immobilize (this is because deadeyes are more apt at precision lore wise) and 5 foes = short knockback on everyone.

[Loboling.5293]

40 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

"Skewer"
Stealth Attack. Ranged. same range as other ranged skills on thief spear
Throw a shadowy spear towards your target piercing up to 4 extra targets behind the target. 
Will apply x Bleeding and X vulnerabity. Extra targets hit will apply extra stacks on those already hit including the extra targets. If 5 are hit, all targets are additionally inflicted with immobilize for 3.5s

*so basically if i hit 1 guy he might get 3 Bleed and 3 vulnerability. If i hit a buddy/pet or whatever behind him ALONG with him, they BOTH get 3 more each of bleed and vulnerability. but if i hit all 5, they all get immobilized.
 

Malicious Skewer
would be the same but if per player hit it would add more conditions and 1 extra vulnerability. 2 foes = cripple, 3 foes=torment, 4 foes immobilize (this is because deadeyes are more apt at precision lore wise) and 5 foes = short knockback on everyone.

That's pretty cool concept. I like it. I wouldn't mind it being a thrust that comes out of the ground as a shadow lance. Shadow Skewer. That would make it a ground target aoe stealth attack. Easier to use hit multiple targets. The idea of skewering enemies from a spear of shadow that attacks them directly from their own shadows sounds super satisfying., I'd also include at least a couple stacks of torment, as who wouldn't be tormented by their enemy vanishing and suddenly their own shadow is skewering them... 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

45 minutes ago, Loboling.5293 said:

That's pretty cool concept. I like it. I wouldn't mind it being a thrust that comes out of the ground as a shadow lance. Shadow Skewer. That would make it a ground target aoe stealth attack. Easier to use hit multiple targets. The idea of skewering enemies from a spear of shadow that attacks them directly from their own shadows sounds super satisfying., I'd also include at least a couple stacks of torment, as who wouldn't be tormented by their enemy vanishing and suddenly their own shadow is skewering them... 

by all means add torment even to BASE Skewer. it would allow specters (once the initiative fiasco is addressed) to benefit.

[Lyralia.2945]

From a wvw perspective:

As I stated before - the thief mobi should be better than willbender as willbender has passive defenses, hits like a truck and endless group utility. 

Initiative, as someone stated, is not the issue - you would still be doing rather useless stuff and losing most tradeoffs because skills take time to use.

The mobility on 3 is a good thing and defines the weapon, despite being rather an edge case (some tuning might make sense, but do not go overboard). 

Keep in mind, that.. again.. On my thief, I could be vanishing with a dodge into stealth that clears immobs and while having permanent superspeed.. while ducking in and out of stealth for the entire time I am using my mobility.. We already have a more problematic form of mobility than a perfectly visible thief dashing around out of stealth, if you think of it that way. The fact some other classes can keep up with us now while retaining all the benefits of their class is a -bad- thing because those classes keep tons of class mechanics, damage, support and other options we don't get. Plus, half the classes get skills specifically designed to delete our class mechanic. Where is my skill that disables clones or other class mechanics?

Nerfing the mobi too much on this will make it harder to really be used as a brawler weapon of any kind (not much damage in competitive.. at least it can be reliable when we aren't forced to dodge through giant condi pulsing aoe fields every profession poops out just for existing?).

Nerfing the mobi, in fact - will make the fact it cannot benefit from the speed from shadow arts or relic mean its slower than a weapon that grants stealth, while gaining -nothing- as an advantage over the faster options. Even in its current state, its not enough damage to justify using and the speed is only really able to keep the user alive.. which a simple stealth field and bound or dagger 2 would have already provided as an option. Speed relic isn't even enough these days considering the sheer mobi that is in the game. To actually hit a target, you need to be able to get into its range.

If you want to make thief slower... why not get rid of some of the ridiculous stuff out there such as builds that can do this:

1. Mesmer builds that can make endless clones (which really make you fight the ui and your mouse targeting keys instead of your opponent, if you think about it), untarget for the clones, outrun you, teleport, stealth and then are able to block everything repeatedly all on a rotation that leaves very little chance for any decent opening and doing far, far more damage and to more targets. Utterly incomprehensible why something is allowed to do that much damage and then chain sustain enough to survive like 6 people chasing them across the map. If thief deserves a nerf, surely this deserves to be gutted? Especially considering that half these builds are designed to be able to burst people down -while- kiting and so if disengagement is your issue, imagine if the thief was also hitting you in an aoe like a truck while it was escaping.

2. Willbender, which can outrun thief, does insane amounts of damage for very little investment whether by traits or skill use, will probably be in cele gear in all likelihood (even in power gear they get plenty of sustain, though), has huge benefits in group play and is borderline immortal unless the willbender wastes their skills or picks off more than they can chew. On guardian, I can teleport into the middle of a large group and do a burst and reasonably expect to see multiple downs, whereas a thief might have to worry about just existing in a large groups range due to the sheer amount of damage everything does in an aoe by existing these days. When I hop onto my guardian there is literally no situation where people don't want me. Zergs, smallscale, 1v1? Willbender or another guardian subclass is not only viable, but ideal. Why is it also so fast, if not the fastest?

Its good we can catch those guys with spear. Considering thiefs supposed role.. its a bit ludicrous that hasn't always been the case.

Edited July 8 by Lyralia.2945