Spear wasn't competently designed for Elementalist.

[TIM.3064]

For those of you whom have tried it, you'll understand.

For those of you who haven't I'll give you a summary.

The new gimmick with the spear is that it's a slow ranged focused weapon where you can place an "etching" which is an element specific field you drop on your feet that has a similar radius to meteor shower, tied to skill 5

When you place this field down, you get an element specific buff, and casting up to three spells within this field will replace your 5 skill with a finisher that ends the aoe.

So in principle the gameplay loop is you stand withing a 10 meter circle, use three abilities and then use the unlocked skill 5 as a finisher attack that ends the etch.

Your third skill is always a self buff based on the elements.

 

The problems:

First and foremost the auto attacks are slow and do absolutely pathetic damage, they also have a massive windup till release. It's considered hearsay but everyone I've discussed with agrees that the auto attacks are an absolute waste of time.

The etchings have too much visual noise. Art team can't make a big fuss about this b/c it's just layered emissive mats/textures. Something you could probably make in 15 minutes of photoshop work if you're being honest. Layer it so it renders under important gameplay visuals, or make it transparent if you're lazy. Do something.

The etching system is incredibly impracticable. It seems like whomever designed this had a romanticized understanding of the gameplay loop, and were transfixed on the visuals. Setting up a buff field then taking 5~6 seconds to setup a subpar finisher is asinine. If anything forces you to switch your element, you've wasted your time and now you need to restart the timer. Arcane is practically mandatory with spear if you don't want to get awkwardly locked out for a couple of seconds on top of the couple of seconds require to setup your "super" attack.

In terms of WvW this only has utility when as a defender behind a wall assuming that people won't spam AOEs on your convenient "target here" etching. Zergs are often too mobile for any utility for this, and the selfish aspect of this means you're not bringing anything to the table with it.

PvP is laughable, with the only utility being a backliner hoping no one will notice you whilst you build up for an attack. Good luck doing that with a big magical glowing circle. And I'm sure enemy players won't see your etch and layer a cake of persistent AOEs on it. You're really, REALLY going to need to crutch on air for PvP.

PvE is where the spear sucks the least due to the braindead nature of enemy NPCs, but it suffers in boss fights due to lack of team buffs, and being locked into a 10 meter circle to setup your finishers.

One of the worst issues with Spear though, is the mentality that it's feasible to be locked into a 10 meter circle on the same element for 5~6 seconds all to setup a underwhelming attack and restart the process. The entire weapon set can be boiled down to 5-3-2-4-5 repeat. I thought there would be some interesting setups whilst using tandem etchings, but it's just more reliable and effective to use one element at a time, despite any breaks in this mundane flow screwing up your cooldowns and etch finials.

Weaver. Oh poor poor Weaver. All I can say is think about all the utilities of swiftness when the entire weapon set is "stay still and use the same element"

 

Potential Suggestions:

Increase the base lifetime of the etched circle.

Buff the base auto-attack.

Add time, up to a max time limit, for each spell cast within the etched circle, to increase the lifetime of the etched circle.

Apply a negative status effect when an enemy is within the radius of the etched circle on creation.

Adding etches (casting spells/using relevant abilities etc) to an etched circle should refresh the buff it gives you, and should potentially increase the intensity of the buff.

Take a good look at Weaver. What an absolute mess. Swiftness for weaver was to help them catch runners, on top of some passive buffs like condi cleanse or strike damage. I guess it's good for running from one point to another, but spear isn't a melee class. Weaver in general needs some love.

Ripple. I understand it's supposed to be like a more defensive firesteps, but the weaponset is designed to have you stay within the etched circle, and this is counter productive to that, forcing you to use the super slow auto attack making the timing tight on getting the water etch final. TBH I'd just make it sink you into the ground or turn into mist etc. You've designed a weaponset locked to a 10 meter circle. THEMS THE RULES.

Post your thoughts below.

 

 

 

Edited June 27 by TIM.3064

[OneAutumnLeaf.3915]

Add the part where the cat with spears can dmg walls without problems

[Velkix.6825]

They said we have 26 skills, but I can only see 8 skills. They cant even make each etching different. Weaver loses characteristics and becomes a core ele with more damage amplifier.

All attunements have the same rotation now. Disappointed

[Stallic.2397]

It's more staff damage 2.0 rather than a different version of Longbow. But the weapon lacks utility or direct pressure. Also, in the aim to make it a power weapon they took away almost all the condi, which is not a good idea and away from ele design

It also doesn't have any synergy with weaver. Sure you could play it but there will be little reason too. Lackluster over all. Not surprising after seeing the atrocity of hammer and pistol 

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

the etching system is very clunky and hard to use...

5 seconds of the etching is reasonable only to CHARGE the flip-over skill, but not to USE it. only enough time to either use the uncharged skill, OR to charge it. once the skill is charged, it needs additional time added to the clock. the base time needs to increase to make it functional. (most flip skills get longer duration)

the autoattacks are pure garbage. first, they only hit one target. second, there's no piercing, so the target might not even get hit because of other enemies getting in the way. third, they do less damage than staff auttoattacks, and staff attoattacks hit more targets. and staff is a SUPPORT weapon. fourth, they're really slow, both in cast time, and travel to target.

if this is supposed to be a glass canon, you got the glass part right, but the cannon part feels more like a wet noodle, compared to the other weapons in ele kit, which all hit a lot harder, AND are easier to use.

PS: very big MISSED OPPORTUNITY here, ele could use the old GW1 mechanic: If blocked, does damage. the mechanic was attached to skills like Glass Arrow, and this mechanic would be great on ele long ranged glass cannon weapon (i originally suggested this as part of 1500 range ele longbow skills)

Edited June 28 by Forgotten Legend.9281

[Santo.2419]

Pretty much agree on all points.  

Feels a bit frantic and limiting, all working to getting that 5th flip off. Half the time I'm not even certain I got it to the 3rd power.

I wonder if getting rid of the triggering of the etchings all together would free up much of the problem in having to camp an element till 5th skill flip.

Maybe just a 3 second charge (or keep the 5 or whatever works) up once etched and it releases the built-up skill while you can flip to other elements and start another etching building, but the main thing is that you can focus on other combo's as they charge. Could involve something else like proximity to etching to make sure it charges up also. If you reach further than a given proximity of where you laid it (maybe half the range of the flip skill?), then it fizzles out before finishing. This would really free up other skills and allow for some combinations. As far as targeting goes it could just hit current target and if not one chosen the nearest (I'm sure other skills have this sorted in the game).

For weaver (or maybe even just the weapon) I would have loved to see them of built in some weaving of all four etchings , something similar to self weave elite. Where you lay all four etching in a certain time (and all charged?) and you get an elemental weave etching combo one (this is not really a suggestion, more an 'Ooo that woulda been cool').

When I play weaver, it's all about quick twisting in and out of elements, having the etching just charge would help weaver a lot. Not having to stay in element and wait for the icon to flip so you can use the 5th skill flip dps will allow for a more normal weaver playstyle.

anyhow, just spit balling

 

Edit*

Was just thinking of a slight variation. The other way is having the etching main damage skill go automatically as above, but have the 3 triggering skills be needed still to charge it.

If you have two etches up, and u use a skill then it gives a charge to both of them. This could keep the triggering part but allow for more planned combinations through layering etchings and getting enough skills to fire within time frames to have multiple etchings fire and timed for when you need them.

It's the having to be in the element to click the charged flip skill that is the problem, imo. 

Edited June 28 by Santo.2419

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

an additional note: spear air 2 (Fulgor) tooltip says it's supposed to do 1024 damage per hit (with beta exotic marauder gear) but actually ONLY does 502 damage per hit... there are so many bugs in the coding of spear damage that it feels like a level 65 weapon instead of a level 80 weapon. 

it really feels like the PvE numbers should be WvW numbers, and the PvE numbers need to be at least double. right now, the "glass cannon" spear can't even compete with the support oriented staff.

it's no fun in WvW when my biggest crit is less than 6000 (with full might stacks) while auto attacks (with full might stacks) crit at 1k, , and i'm constantly taking 8k, 9k hits from other spears, and sometimes 16k crits from warrior burst skills.

this weapon really feels like a nerf dart when everyone else has vulcan gatling guns

[asket.5674]

My impression was, that sometimes, the final edging wont just hit an enemy, especially volcano seems to bug out on uneven terrain. 
 

the time to „carve“ to the final edging is too short, the short time limits to usage of instant skills if you are in reactive situations as in pvp, which reduces  build diversity imo. So either increase the time or reduce the numbers of skills. 
 

While i enjoy the edging mechanic, it feels lackluster on weaver and forces camping elements, this contradicts the idea of weaver, constantly weaving in elements. i would suggest to be able to edge one Element and finish with another. This would result in a far more dynamic playstyle. 
 

After further playsessions, spear on weaver is unfeasible. The intention with the attunement cd reduction is on spot, because making full attuned state more accessible is necessary, but the implementation is lacking. Imo weaver should get unravel without and effects as F5 as class mechanic and the utility reworked into something that provides quickness. Also the spear dual skills need to be of offensive, damaging nature at least sole of them, to trigger trait. 

Edited June 29 by asket.5674

[Awn.1327]

While I agree with many of your points - esp. that the casts are too slow and the etching time is too short - I am sure they knew exactly what they were doing. The fantasy for a big nuke caster almost always comes with the draw back of being animation locked or mobility constricted in some shape or form in pretty much all games. See also bladesworn.

Yes, this is different from how all other ele weapons play, which is why I think they made this in the first place.

My biggest gripe is that the nuke damage is not nearly high enough to justify such a dramatic lock-down, especially in WvW where only the volcano does damage. The other attunement's etchings feel very weak there.

Second to that is how vulnerable everything is to even the slightest CC (interrupts).

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Etching need some tweaks and QoL for sure.

Otherwise I agree rotations are exactly the same no matter the attunement. (Obviously Etching doesn't help)
All elements have copy-paste of same skills with just the old elemental changes on secondary effect (chill/self heal, vulnerability, burn etc). With a bit more work on Air I guess.(except it doesn't really work either).
It would have been better if already AA were all different : Fire with chain, Air with bounce/pierce, water with aoe heal on target, earth with spike blast or spread, for example. And #2 (or #4), water a teleport skill like sand sweil, eartha grip with a pull like the old Magnetic leap. And #3 ... not a big fan, at least if Fulgor could crit*, and AA not consume effect.

Just more identity on each elements.

Edited June 28 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Mascarun.7910]

In my opinion, etchings should:

-Pulse damage (spear has no way of maintaining persisting flames)

-Have zero cast time (etchings can interrupt overloads, which sucks)

-Automatically execute after the timer is up (the 3 skill activation requirement is not really that interesting nor flexible)

-Have some sort of delay before you can use the flip skill (holding 5 for a bit too long wastes the skill on the weak version of the flip)

Further critiques:

-Skill 3 does not provide weakness for weaver's superior elements trait (even just 1 pulse of 1 damage would help)

-Autoattacks. My grandmother can autoattack for more than what elementalist can with spear (not that autoattacks were ever a strong point for ele, but sceptre and sword have much better autoattacks, especially if you are a tempest waiting for overload air)

-Autoattacks, again. To repeat what everyone has been saying, AAs have 0 aoe or pierce; anet truly does not put any effort into making them useful or distinct for elementalist.

-Fulgor does not crit

-Multihit attacks for energy generation for catalyst? Where are they?

-Fire 3 (and possibly Air 3? haven't personally confirmed) can be consumed by auto attack. Why?

 

It's really awkward to make use of this weapon on tempest, what I hope to play spear on. It seems like this spear has a "good" concept, yet in practice it works against the elite ele specs, making it rather clunky. As a tempest, I want to constantly swap into and out of Air to use overload air. Do you think I want to spent any long amount of time preparing an etching under the current system? If Anet wants to give players this fantasy of "big nuke caster", then I pray that they seriously reconsider the above points. Again, it would be really cool if i could just have the etching skills of any element go off as I'm overloading air. 

[CafPow.1542]

I did only test a bit and i kinda like the weapon, at least in pve and maybe as a backline damage weapon in wvw i dunno.

what really minda bugs me is that, kinda like on pistol, the ui lacks information.

i want a visual thingy above let’s say my hp (kinda like the deadeyes have) so i know how mich i boosted my 5 already.

and as far as i can say i can do the 5 finisher „semi boosted“ after 1 or 2 attacks.

 

 You agree besides that, that the autoattacks need to be buffed (aoe effects and whatnot). The rest are just damage modifiers. I tested it on celestial gear and considering my lack of understanding the weapon it felt okay. (I know that cele gear doesn’t slap hard but i wanna get a feel for the weapon and don’t play perfectly so cele is a nice thing for that.)

[Ragnarox.9601]

From what Ive seen they dont play eles at all...

[Razor.6392]

18 hours ago, TIM.3064 said:

For those of you whom have tried it, you'll understand.

For those of you who haven't I'll give you a summary.

The new gimmick with the spear is that it's a slow ranged focused weapon where you can place an "etching" which is an element specific field you drop on your feet that has a similar radius to meteor shower, tied to skill 5

When you place this field down, you get an element specific buff, and casting up to three spells within this field will replace your 5 skill with a finisher that ends the aoe.

So in principle the gameplay loop is you stand withing a 10 meter circle, use three abilities and then use the unlocked skill 5 as a finisher attack that ends the etch.

Your third skill is always a self buff based on the elements.

 

The problems:

First and foremost the auto attacks are slow and do absolutely pathetic damage, they also have a massive windup till release. It's considered hearsay but everyone I've discussed with agrees that the auto attacks are an absolute waste of time.

The etchings have too much visual noise. Art team can't make a big fuss about this b/c it's just layered emissive mats/textures. Something you could probably make in 15 minutes of photoshop work if you're being honest. Layer it so it renders under important gameplay visuals, or make it transparent if you're lazy. Do something.

The etching system is incredibly impracticable. It seems like whomever designed this had a romanticized understanding of the gameplay loop, and were transfixed on the visuals. Setting up a buff field then taking 5~6 seconds to setup a subpar finisher is asinine. If anything forces you to switch your element, you've wasted your time and now you need to restart the timer. Arcane is practically mandatory with spear if you don't want to get awkwardly locked out for a couple of seconds on top of the couple of seconds require to setup your "super" attack.

In terms of WvW this only has utility when as a defender behind a wall assuming that people won't spam AOEs on your convenient "target here" etching. Zergs are often too mobile for any utility for this, and the selfish aspect of this means you're not bringing anything to the table with it.

PvP is laughable, with the only utility being a backliner hoping no one will notice you whilst you build up for an attack. Good luck doing that with a big magical glowing circle. And I'm sure enemy players won't see your etch and layer a cake of persistent AOEs on it. You're really, REALLY going to need to crutch on air for PvP.

PvE is where the spear sucks the least due to the braindead nature of enemy NPCs, but it suffers in boss fights due to lack of team buffs, and being locked into a 10 meter circle to setup your finishers.

One of the worst issues with Spear though, is the mentality that it's feasible to be locked into a 10 meter circle on the same element for 5~6 seconds all to setup a underwhelming attack and restart the process. The entire weapon set can be boiled down to 5-3-2-4-5 repeat. I thought there would be some interesting setups whilst using tandem etchings, but it's just more reliable and effective to use one element at a time, despite any breaks in this mundane flow screwing up your cooldowns and etch finials.

Weaver. Oh poor poor Weaver. All I can say is think about all the utilities of swiftness when the entire weapon set is "stay still and use the same element"

 

Potential Suggestions:

Increase the base lifetime of the etched circle.

Buff the base auto-attack.

Add time, up to a max time limit, for each spell cast within the etched circle, to increase the lifetime of the etched circle.

Apply a negative status effect when an enemy is within the radius of the etched circle on creation.

Adding etches (casting spells/using relevant abilities etc) to an etched circle should refresh the buff it gives you, and should potentially increase the intensity of the buff.

Take a good look at Weaver. What an absolute mess. Swiftness for weaver was to help them catch runners, on top of some passive buffs like condi cleanse or strike damage. I guess it's good for running from one point to another, but spear isn't a melee class. Weaver in general needs some love.

Ripple. I understand it's supposed to be like a more defensive firesteps, but the weaponset is designed to have you stay within the etched circle, and this is counter productive to that, forcing you to use the super slow auto attack making the timing tight on getting the water etch final. TBH I'd just make it sink you into the ground or turn into mist etc. You've designed a weaponset locked to a 10 meter circle. THEMS THE RULES.

Post your thoughts below.

 

 

 

what's the problem with weaver and swiftness? i dont get it.

[TIM.3064]

6 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

what's the problem with weaver and swiftness? i dont get it.

Neither do the devs.

 

Barbs aside, think about it like this, it makes you fast but you have to stay still for the spear's main mechanic.

[Twilightmage.8309]

why are the finishers blast finishers when the circles are under us.

[rabbitofharmony.6943]

19 hours ago, Mascarun.7910 said:

In my opinion, etchings should:

-Pulse damage (spear has no way of maintaining persisting flames)

-Have zero cast time (etchings can interrupt overloads, which sucks)

-Automatically execute after the timer is up (the 3 skill activation requirement is not really that interesting nor flexible)

-Have some sort of delay before you can use the flip skill (holding 5 for a bit too long wastes the skill on the weak version of the flip)

Further critiques:

-Skill 3 does not provide weakness for weaver's superior elements trait (even just 1 pulse of 1 damage would help)

-Autoattacks. My grandmother can autoattack for more than what elementalist can with spear (not that autoattacks were ever a strong point for ele, but sceptre and sword have much better autoattacks, especially if you are a tempest waiting for overload air)

-Autoattacks, again. To repeat what everyone has been saying, AAs have 0 aoe or pierce; anet truly does not put any effort into making them useful or distinct for elementalist.

-Fulgor does not crit

-Multihit attacks for energy generation for catalyst? Where are they?

-Fire 3 (and possibly Air 3? haven't personally confirmed) can be consumed by auto attack. Why?

 

It's really awkward to make use of this weapon on tempest, what I hope to play spear on. It seems like this spear has a "good" concept, yet in practice it works against the elite ele specs, making it rather clunky. As a tempest, I want to constantly swap into and out of Air to use overload air. Do you think I want to spent any long amount of time preparing an etching under the current system? If Anet wants to give players this fantasy of "big nuke caster", then I pray that they seriously reconsider the above points. Again, it would be really cool if i could just have the etching skills of any element go off as I'm overloading air. 

The dual attack for weaver def got my attention, even a small little tick of damage on the current target without an animation would be fine. the auto attacks being faster might help cata enough? I can see potential in the flow, lay down field, use abilities till its charged, use biggy and then switch, dual attack (and if it puts out a tick of damage there is weakness proc which would help sustain as well) and then attunment swap again and repeat.

Water three felt weird in the rotation to the point  started to avoid it in the rotation, cause it moved me.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/29/2024 at 12:05 AM, Mascarun.7910 said:

In my opinion, etchings should:

-Pulse damage (spear has no way of maintaining persisting flames)

-Have zero cast time (etchings can interrupt overloads, which sucks)

-Automatically execute after the timer is up (the 3 skill activation requirement is not really that interesting nor flexible)

-Have some sort of delay before you can use the flip skill (holding 5 for a bit too long wastes the skill on the weak version of the flip)

Further critiques:

-Skill 3 does not provide weakness for weaver's superior elements trait (even just 1 pulse of 1 damage would help)

-Autoattacks. My grandmother can autoattack for more than what elementalist can with spear (not that autoattacks were ever a strong point for ele, but sceptre and sword have much better autoattacks, especially if you are a tempest waiting for overload air)

-Autoattacks, again. To repeat what everyone has been saying, AAs have 0 aoe or pierce; anet truly does not put any effort into making them useful or distinct for elementalist.

-Fulgor does not crit

-Multihit attacks for energy generation for catalyst? Where are they?

-Fire 3 (and possibly Air 3? haven't personally confirmed) can be consumed by auto attack. Why?

 

It's really awkward to make use of this weapon on tempest, what I hope to play spear on. It seems like this spear has a "good" concept, yet in practice it works against the elite ele specs, making it rather clunky. As a tempest, I want to constantly swap into and out of Air to use overload air. Do you think I want to spent any long amount of time preparing an etching under the current system? If Anet wants to give players this fantasy of "big nuke caster", then I pray that they seriously reconsider the above points. Again, it would be really cool if i could just have the etching skills of any element go off as I'm overloading air. 

If you're thinking of fresh air tempest, I can't help but think that just isn't the build spear is intended for. Spear is intended to be the long range weapon, while tempest requires getting in fairly close regularly for overloads. You probably would be better off with a melee (or at least a mobile weapon suited for close-ish combat) weapon with decent air camping potential for a fresh air tempest, like sword, sceptre, or possibly dagger.

I could see spear working for a non-fresh-air tempest: etch, power up etching, release etching, then overload. But you're still needing to get in close with a weapon that seems designed for going artillery mode.

Now, there are problems with weaver and catalyst as well, but tempest feels like it's probably the elite specialisation that spear should be least expected to synergise well with.

[TIM.3064]

16 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If you're thinking of fresh air tempest, I can't help but think that just isn't the build spear is intended for. Spear is intended to be the long range weapon, while tempest requires getting in fairly close regularly for overloads. You probably would be better off with a melee (or at least a mobile weapon suited for close-ish combat) weapon with decent air camping potential for a fresh air tempest, like sword, sceptre, or possibly dagger.

I could see spear working for a non-fresh-air tempest: etch, power up etching, release etching, then overload. But you're still needing to get in close with a weapon that seems designed for going artillery mode.

Now, there are problems with weaver and catalyst as well, but tempest feels like it's probably the elite specialisation that spear should be least expected to synergise well with.

Float.

[Codename T.2847]

They should just make the etchings move with the Ele xD

[Caffynated.5713]

The dev who designed this has never logged into an ele to even hit a target dummy. It really is amazing how badly designed it is. 

Weaver especially. How do you design a weapon that effectively deletes an entire elite spec? All of the Dual Attack skills amount to "you gain a trivial boon and you're no longer a Weaver."

[Purple Effects.2503]

On 7/7/2024 at 7:43 AM, Caffynated.5713 said:

Weaver especially. How do you design a weapon that effectively deletes an entire elite spec? All of the Dual Attack skills amount to "you gain a trivial boon and you're no longer a Weaver

But they gave it the ability to instantly Recharge the attunment your in when using the dual skill. So it doesn’t delete it lol, just repurposes what it does for that weapon really. 

edit: for those confuse facing. 

I never said this was good, on par or strong in terms of a replacement. I’m simply stating the mechanic is in place. 

as stated in previous and post messages by othersthere are many faults with the concept in terms of damage loss, I’m simply stating they didn’t delete the mechanic. 

Edited July 18 by Purple Effects.2503

[Markus.6415]

On 7/8/2024 at 8:13 AM, Purple Effects.2503 said:

But they gave it the ability to instantly Recharge the attunment your in when using the dual skill. So it doesn’t delete it lol, just repurposes what it does for that weapon really. 

The problem here is that the a portion of Weavers power comes from the damaging dual skills. Without those, the 17% damage buff won't make spear viable against a tempest with 35% damage buff and overloads.

Edit: Talking from a PvE point of view (for the confused emoji maybe).

Edited July 9 by Markus.6415

[Mascarun.7910]

Perhaps Anet just hates weaver because it forces them to design 6 more weaponskills whenever they add a new weapon to elementalist, on top of the 12 (one-handed mainhand) to 20 (two-handed) weaponskills they already have to create. Perhaps Anet should just rework weaver if they hate it so much, or add an F5, like catalyst has, which counts as a damaging dual attack and is the same regardless of the actual weapon. 

[draxynnic.3719]

10 minutes ago, Mascarun.7910 said:

Perhaps Anet just hates weaver because it forces them to design 6 more weaponskills whenever they add a new weapon to elementalist, on top of the 12 (one-handed mainhand) to 20 (two-handed) weaponskills they already have to create. Perhaps Anet should just rework weaver if they hate it so much, or add an F5, like catalyst has, which counts as a damaging dual attack and is the same regardless of the actual weapon. 

Wouldn't surprise me. The problem is that in PvE, weaver is the only elementalist elite specialisation that isn't punished for keeping its distance from the enemy. So when the make a weapon that's intended to satisfy players wanting a ranged elementalist, and then make it function poorly with weaver, they're failing the assignment.

They're kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place, but the rock and hard place were of their own making and they chose to wedge themselves into it when they made all three elite specs melee-oriented, with the weaver being the only one that could be built otherwise without wasting a significant part of your potential.

Edited July 9 by draxynnic.3719