Participation while Defending

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

I am mostly trying to figure out what we're actually supposed to get while participating in defense events alone (not participation from killing enemies).
I have seen the event pop up, but when it ends and my team is successful, I don't seem to get anything in terms of participation. Such as when we kill their siege and they walk away, or I hit them with cannons and they become deterred, etc.

I feel like we used to get participation for those events by themselves. Did that change? Or was that just a fever dream that we ever got participation for defending a structure?

I was also told that if your keep was being sieged by something far away, and that siege gets destroyed, the event doesn't reward anything either. Is there any truth to that?

Just trying to figure out what's what, and if any of my experiences regarding this is an anomaly or working as intended.

[ArchonWing.9480]

You must kill an enemy player in the objective area. The enemy player must be defined as an attacker, and who really knows what that means.

Killing siege doesn't do anything.

In the past you used to be able to get it by repairing but because some degens spent all days repairing SMC walls, they decided nobody should get any credit.
Ironically the best way to get defenses is still to defend SMC, due to its large area and volume of enemy players that typically try to go in. Keeps are usually easier to get credit than towers for similar reasons.

Honestly, if you're a more casual player, you shouldn't defend at all besides keeps and castles, unless you have some kind of group going.

Edited July 16 by ArchonWing.9480

[Greymantle.9168]

Not sure how you defend and not kill someone...The literal best way to stop an attack is to defensively kill people lol.

[XenesisII.1540]

At the very least basic logic for credit should be....

1. Kill an enemy that killed a guard for that objective (which should tag them for attacking that objective).

2. Kill a player that did siege damage on that objective (which should tag them for attacking that objective).

3. Tag a player with minimum damage for kill credit, whether that is by skills or siege, and then they are killed and you can get credit if they did one of the two above. 

4. Maybe kill an enemy player that killed a defending player in the area, this one is iffy as you can kill a player in the area without them even aggroing the objective in the first place.

[CafPow.1542]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Honestly, if you're a more casual player, you shouldn't defend at all besides keeps and castles, unless you have some kind of group going.

If you are a casual player just play the game and don’t overthink it.

Repair a wall when it makes sense, kill enemies when you can, get all the structures you can get. End of story.

[bq pd.2148]

59 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

4. Maybe kill an enemy player that killed a defending player in the area, this one is iffy as you can kill a player in the area without them even aggroing the objective in the first place.

the area can be closer to the structure, like presence of the keep is closer than object aura.

the defense reward should only happen if there is a defense event going on anyway. in which case preemptively killing a hostile player near the objective before they can join the rest of the group should still count.

likewise if someone hid inside a structure and later attacks the lord when it seems like it is safe to do, then you drop by and kill them at the lord without them killing any guard (RBL has solo lords) during the event should also give you a successful event (that should be up for the lord being in combat).

[XenesisII.1540]

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

the area can be closer to the structure, like presence of the keep is closer than object aura.

the defense reward should only happen if there is a defense event going on anyway. in which case preemptively killing a hostile player near the objective before they can join the rest of the group should still count.

likewise if someone hid inside a structure and later attacks the lord when it seems like it is safe to do, then you drop by and kill them at the lord without them killing any guard (RBL has solo lords) during the event should also give you a successful event (that should be up for the lord being in combat).

What I meant by that statement is for example you could kill a roamer just passing by and they haven't done anything in that area, so therefore it's unlikely you would get credit for the defense going on if say a zerg is potentially already in the objective and already triggered the defense event. We don't know if just being in the area of the objective gives you the credit, which going by many reports it doesn't seem likely. Maybe there's also a time limit attached to being in that area too for credit, who knows.

My four statements are just logical conclusions from what we currently have experienced the past year since the changes. Should there be more/better ways to get credit for defense? obviously, it's not a very reliable system as it is and could use some improvements. Overall if you want credit then tag someone that's involved in a battle at the objective.

On a personal note, I've never had problems completing the defense events, sometimes I would get the defend keep ones done in just one battle period, not hard when boon balls stay in those areas for a while to farm. The towers ones aren't hard either, just show up and "actively defend". 🤷‍♂️

Edited July 17 by XenesisII.1540

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

44 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Should there be more/better ways to get credit for defense? obviously, it's not a very reliable system as it is and could use some improvements.

This is part of why I made this post, but I wanted to clarify first what should/shouldn't be happening as a result of defending before I followed my own thoughts on this.

As it is, as mentioned above, it definitely seems to be a very unreliable system. Attackers typically leave if they can't break through your walls, which, as a defender, I would logically consider a success. But based on this system, I'm not rewarded for actually keeping attackers from breaching the structure and am therefore incentivized to let them come in, hope for a fight, and IF I get a kill, then I get participation.
In addition, if I and some teammates are outnumbered while defending against a boonblob, and we manage to keep them from taking our structure, we don't get participation for the mere fact that we won't get any kills from said blob.
 

4 hours ago, Greymantle.9168 said:

Not sure how you defend and not kill someone...The literal best way to stop an attack is to defensively kill people lol.

I am equally unsure why this is somehow a surprising or confusing scenario to you. I can think of different situations where this has happened, and it happens quite often.
The simplest example is what I stated above- if you are defending against a larger group. You set up siege to counter theirs while you call for reinforcements. If you've set up some supply traps and have managed to kill their siege, that means they can't set up more and they leave to get more supply or to try another objective. There's also situations where an enemy group will literally just run or port away once they see more defenders, even after they've taken the walls down.
And no, killing people isn't always the best way to defend, because you don't always have the opportunity to kill people. If you're outnumbered by your attackers, the least effective way to defend is by trying to do a 1v10 that you'll probably lose. The best you'll do is give them a bag and the time to continue sieging your place without interruption because the only defender around just died.

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Honestly, if you're a more casual player, you shouldn't defend at all besides keeps and castles, unless you have some kind of group going.

Thanks for your answers.
This is kind of sad. Some people really like defending, but obviously also want rewards. Why can't we have both? I'm not thinking that defense play should be rewarded in such high amounts, but at least give me something to keep some of my participation up, even if I have to do more as a result.

[XenesisII.1540]

47 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Attackers typically leave if they can't break through your walls, which, as a defender, I would logically consider a success. But based on this system, I'm not rewarded for actually keeping attackers from breaching the structure and am therefore incentivized to let them come in, hope for a fight, and IF I get a kill, then I get participation.

By the same token, attackers don't get credit for anything until they take the objective, and this is a one time reward for it, while defenders could potentially rack up dozens of defend events before that objective eventually falls. The attackers also need to do the same thing as defenders in order to keep their participation, kill someone or a guard. It just so happens many defenders are dumb enough to stand on walls and get pulled or suicide into groups to 1v40 for some unknown reason to help them out with that.

And to all the defenders that like to bring their roamer specs to defend against a zerg, bring your zerg spec instead if you want to kill someone from a zerg, or get better credit for when they start dying. And more importantly stop feeding boon balls.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

It should be changed so that any kill within the region of a friendly keep, castle, tower or camp, counts as a defense, whether or not the objective is contested.

[Hesione.9412]

7 hours ago, Greymantle.9168 said:

Not sure how you defend and not kill someone...The literal best way to stop an attack is to defensively kill people lol.

This does not happen when they have a zerg and you have four other people.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

This does not happen when they have a zerg and you have four other people.

Zerg? 

Even if YOU have the zerg, how do you “defensively” kill 4 guys on 2 catas when they are far outside the tower event?

Stand with 50 peeps on the wall waiting for them to get inside while going “uhum yep that’s another 3% of the wall, hooooooold!”?

[CafPow.1542]

46 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

“uhum yep that’s another 3% of the wall, hooooooold!”

The suspense is killing me like alfred hitchcock tagged up as a commi huh?

[bq pd.2148]

8 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

My four statements are just logical conclusions from what we currently have experienced the past year since the changes.

i misunderstood then, my bad.  thought it was about what should count for the participation, not what currently works.

[TheGrimm.5624]

To clarify, we have new defense bugs now?

[disForm.2837]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

To clarify, we have new defense bugs now?

We have new bugs across the board after yesterday's update, I'd say.

Defense credit were hard enough already that another bug would probably go unnoticed. 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

5 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

To clarify, we have new defense bugs now?

Defense rewards have had problems since launch. In the past there was an easy workaround for this because a repair during a defense would register as participation. It was a solid way to get rewarded for defense but players disliked rewards for repairs and complained for years. So ArenaNet listened and removed it. Resulting in the situation we have today.

I just hope those who complained are happy with the results.

[CafPow.1542]

34 minutes ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

I just hope those who complained are happy with the results.

I was not around really but did they complain that you get participation or did they complain that you can kinda afk farm through pointless repairing?

cause the first one is silly while tge second one would be very understandable.

[Conner.4702]

Been in a couple of fights now where the wall/gate was breached, but the fight lasted longer then the timer and they didn't reach the lord to start a new timer. Thus no defense participation.

If they want to keep this very bad system at least make it so the timer keeps restarting as long as there are enemies within the structure and any kill in the immediate area counts for defense. Immediate area meaning the entire area allocated to the structure.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Conner.4702 said:

Been in a couple of fights now where the wall/gate was breached, but the fight lasted longer then the timer and they didn't reach the lord to start a new timer. Thus no defense participation.

If they want to keep this very bad system at least make it so the timer keeps restarting as long as there are enemies within the structure and any kill in the immediate area counts for defense. Immediate area meaning the entire area allocated to the structure.

Now the question is, is the wall repair bug also linked to this or something else. 

[Hesione.9412]

15 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Zerg? 

Even if YOU have the zerg, how do you “defensively” kill 4 guys on 2 catas when they are far outside the tower event?

Stand with 50 peeps on the wall waiting for them to get inside while going “uhum yep that’s another 3% of the wall, hooooooold!”?

The zerg are attacking your keep. You and four other players are there. You can't down any of them because it's a boonball. You lose participation.

[Arzikin.1076]

Вот почему нет смысла что-либо защищать в большинстве сражений. Просто дайте им захватить и снять захваты, чтобы получить опыт. save your time

Edited July 17 by Arzikin.1076

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

On 7/16/2024 at 7:15 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

By the same token, attackers don't get credit for anything until they take the objective, and this is a one time reward for it, while defenders could potentially rack up dozens of defend events before that objective eventually falls. The attackers also need to do the same thing as defenders in order to keep their participation, kill someone or a guard. It just so happens many defenders are dumb enough to stand on walls and get pulled or suicide into groups to 1v40 for some unknown reason to help them out with that.

And to all the defenders that like to bring their roamer specs to defend against a zerg, bring your zerg spec instead if you want to kill someone from a zerg, or get better credit for when they start dying. And more importantly stop feeding boon balls.

Good point, didn't realize that was the case for attackers either. Part of what's not helping me is that participation wasn't really something I paid attention to until more recently. I played WvW for the sheer fun of it, so the extra rewards were just bonuses that came along with whatever the heck I was doing. But recently the fun aspects have been waning, so part of why I play WvW now is for reward tracks and those participation chests. Hence my increased interest on what does/doesn't help with those things.

I can honestly see a system where both sides can get participation when they're breaking down walls or siege during an attack/defense event. Not anything sizable, but if you're constantly doing it, you can at least keep participation at a more even keel. I can also see the concern that people may abuse this, like the wall repair thing but Idk. I feel like it's not much of a big deal if someone kills siege off enemy walls even if they don't plan on fully attacking it, as that still serves their team in some way. Equally so if you're defending and are able to break enemy siege during the event. Both are very useful to either side.
Or perhaps, instead of requiring us to kill players, how about giving us some amount of participation if we're in combat within the radius of where the event is occurring? Killing players would still net the highest rewards, while the rest- killing siege, breaking walls, being in combat -gives much smaller amounts, with being in combat giving the least out of all of them?

17 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

I was not around really but did they complain that you get participation or did they complain that you can kinda afk farm through pointless repairing?

cause the first one is silly while tge second one would be very understandable.

Yeah, I think a big issue for people was that some afk wall repairers would end up draining supply, because they didn't know or care that repairs were intentionally being halted. I remember being one of the people who'd tell or whisper at people to stop repairing, just to be ignored.
However, I was still sad that they removed the incentives altogether, especially since they didn't replace it with anything else.

All in all, I just feel like the tower defense aspects of this game mode needs more love.

[CafPow.1542]

24 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Yeah, I think a big issue for people was that some afk wall repairers would end up draining supply, because they didn't know or care that repairs were intentionally being halted. I remember being one of the people who'd tell or whisper at people to stop repairing, just to be ignored.
However, I was still sad that they removed the incentives altogether, especially since they didn't replace it with anything else.

All in all, I just feel like the tower defense aspects of this game mode needs more love.

Exactly what i mean. And i hate that common sense is not around in some ppl. They just afk farm.

maybe, tho i dislike such consequences, but maybe let defend event trigger throug repair. But inly for …. 50 supplies you put in or something like that you know?

that would mean you participate through repair but you lose participation (yes the overall one aswell) if you only do that. Hm.