We desperately need a decent balance patch

[Vinny.7260]

I see you all speaking about Willbender. I just gotta say:

🗣️If you're hitting plat in ranked with a build that dishes out a lot of damage, that just means you're good at sniffing out the weaklings. That's good. That's fine. That's not a balance issue.

There are people who can do it with LR Weaver, FA Weaver, D/D Catalyst, Power Chronomancer, Power Mirage, CORE Guardian, Terrormancer, and many more.

 

There are obviously outliers, like the more bust-o specs right now, but leave Willbender and its fellow glass cannons out of the crossfire. 😞 

[Mhina.1827]

1 hour ago, Vinny.7260 said:

I see you all speaking about Willbender. I just gotta say:

🗣️If you're hitting plat in ranked with a build that dishes out a lot of damage, that just means you're good at sniffing out the weaklings. That's good. That's fine. That's not a balance issue.

There are people who can do it with LR Weaver, FA Weaver, D/D Catalyst, Power Chronomancer, Power Mirage, CORE Guardian, Terrormancer, and many more.

 

There are obviously outliers, like the more bust-o specs right now, but leave Willbender and its fellow glass cannons out of the crossfire. 😞 

I don't know how willbender is getting lumped in with the other builds mentioned at all. Condi Reaper & Untamed are on a whole different stratosphere of just unfun. 

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

I see you all speaking about Willbender. I just gotta say:

🗣️If you're hitting plat in ranked with a build that dishes out a lot of damage, that just means you're good at sniffing out the weaklings. That's good. That's fine. That's not a balance issue.

There are people who can do it with LR Weaver, FA Weaver, D/D Catalyst, Power Chronomancer, Power Mirage, CORE Guardian, Terrormancer, and many more.

 

There are obviously outliers, like the more bust-o specs right now, but leave Willbender and its fellow glass cannons out of the crossfire. 😞 

 

1 hour ago, Mhina.1827 said:

I don't know how willbender is getting lumped in with the other builds mentioned at all. Condi Reaper & Untamed are on a whole different stratosphere of just unfun. 

If you've read after these get others 100% get some nerfs, willbender which already doing well will be more.

 

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

I see you all speaking about Willbender. I just gotta say:

🗣️If you're hitting plat in ranked with a build that dishes out a lot of damage, that just means you're good at sniffing out the weaklings. That's good. That's fine. That's not a balance issue.

There are people who can do it with LR Weaver, FA Weaver, D/D Catalyst, Power Chronomancer, Power Mirage, CORE Guardian, Terrormancer, and many more.

 

There are obviously outliers, like the more bust-o specs right now, but leave Willbender and its fellow glass cannons out of the crossfire. 😞 

Also you can't compare willbender with these others as roamer+ team dps. It does it already better then them + more mobility/escapes and easier offensive/defensive in one because that's how it's made. 

So I wouldn't call it a glass canon with that amount of defense in it if it can comfortable stay in an entire team some time and doing some good damage while holding HP high. That aint glass canon, sorry to break your dream

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 7/20/2024 at 6:30 AM, Melumi.6432 said:

Recently

 

[Deathstrike.1803]

There will be always some outperforming builds you ll never balance it out. It’s just shift to keep it varied. You generally ask the wrong questions.

the core problem of development is that if you remove feature which are considered to be broken or overperforming (nerfs) you cut down another branch of the tree.  In the end you you’ll get a more linear product, linear products can work in a vertical progression approach but they won’t work in horizontal progression.

all gw2 has is horizontal progression on skill and game knowledge, if you nerf/remove this things, there is nothing left of its core idea. Just go for the patch history of several classes, skills and traits. The lifecycle of gw2 is almost over it’s just carried by its combat system, design products on this system are worse than years ago.

 

 

[Mhina.1827]

11 minutes ago, Deathstrike.1803 said:

it’s just carried by its combat system

Yep. Only reason I play.

[Voodoo.3201]

Stop nerfing and buff instead

[Kuma.1503]

On 7/20/2024 at 7:06 PM, TruthSeeker.3697 said:

I've heard that so many times over the years:
"We're so close! If they just nerfed the things I don't like, the balance would be the best it's been in years!" And then that feeling is gone after 10 days.

This. 

A very common misconception here is that builds exist in a vacuum. Most people think balance works like this:

(Exact numbers aren't important)

Spoiler

Vidicator: 10/10

Untamed: 9.5/10

Willbender 8.5/10

SpB: 8/10

Everything else: 7/10

 

The intuitive solution is to simply knock everyone down a few points until everything is a 7/10. Then we'll have balance. The reality is that knocking one build down indirectly buffs another. You knock Sp.B down and that buffs 5 other builds that struggled against SpB. As those 5 builds rise, builds which struggle against those decrease in viability. The end result might look something like this

Spoiler

Vindi/Untamed/Willbender/SpB: 7/10

Weaver: 10/10

Holosmith: 9.5/10

Reaper: 9/10

Deadeye: 8.5/10

Herald: 5/10

Everything else: 7/10

Several elite specs surge in viability even though they were never touched with direct buffs. Others might drop because the new meta isn't favorable for them. 

This doesn't mean we shouldn't try to balance the game, but we should accept that there will always be something that sits above everyone else. Balance patches only exist to shake up the meta and cycle who gets to stand on top. A sign of a healthy meta is when builds on every class are able to be competetive, even if operating at a lower power level than the FoTM specs. 

Edited July 22 by Kuma.1503

[Hotride.2187]

8 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Willbender and its fellow glass cannons out of the crossfire. 😞 

Ah yes, willbender the glass cannon. Thief of old was a glass cannon when it came to team fights, it went in and popped instantly to 2 ppl spamming aoes. Willbender is not even close to glass.

Not calling for nerfs, its w/e to me. But calling it glass is absurd.

[Flowki.7194]

On 7/22/2024 at 10:36 PM, Hotride.2187 said:

Ah yes, willbender the glass cannon. Thief of old was a glass cannon when it came to team fights, it went in and popped instantly to 2 ppl spamming aoes. Willbender is not even close to glass.

Not calling for nerfs, its w/e to me. But calling it glass is absurd.

WB is for those who want to play herald, but don't want to learn proper timing, yet still pretend they are doing something risky/skillfull. So many players on dog specs of all kinds, acting like they are not picking the most degen kitten possible becuase they can't play anything remotely skill/punish based.

Edited July 23 by Flowki.7194

[Terrorhuz.4695]

11 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

WB is for those who want to play herald, but don't want to learn proper timing, yet still pretend they are doing something risky/skillfull. So many players on dog specs of all kinds, acting like they are not picking the most degen kitten possible becuase they can't play anything remotely skill/punish based.

I reiterate
Willbender casts f3; port + stab
Then they spam all their stuff; they have stab+prot+fractal  tier dps <= THEY HAVE FRACTAL-TIER DPS AND YOU DO NOT; THIS IS WHERE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BLOCK.
Then f3 runs out and they can't freecast anymore <= THIS IS WHERE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO CC THEM.

Then they cast renewed focus. They will cast F3 again, you block again (or stealth, or sit on no port spot or whatever), then it expires again, then you stun them again, then you kill them.

This is literally how every willbender matchup works. The build in particular doesn't have much room for customization, it's on rails. That's literally all they do: f3 gives stab, they pump damage, then they run away unless you stun them.

Edited July 24 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

On 7/22/2024 at 7:12 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

This. 

A very common misconception here is that builds exist in a vacuum. Most people think balance works like this:

(Exact numbers aren't important)

  Reveal hidden contents

Vidicator: 10/10

Untamed: 9.5/10

Willbender 8.5/10

SpB: 8/10

Everything else: 7/10

 

The intuitive solution is to simply knock everyone down a few points until everything is a 7/10. Then we'll have balance. The reality is that knocking one build down indirectly buffs another. You knock Sp.B down and that buffs 5 other builds that struggled against SpB. As those 5 builds rise, builds which struggle against those decrease in viability. The end result might look something like this

  Reveal hidden contents

Vindi/Untamed/Willbender/SpB: 7/10

Weaver: 10/10

Holosmith: 9.5/10

Reaper: 9/10

Deadeye: 8.5/10

Herald: 5/10

Everything else: 7/10

Several elite specs surge in viability even though they were never touched with direct buffs. Others might drop because the new meta isn't favorable for them. 

This doesn't mean we shouldn't try to balance the game, but we should accept that there will always be something that sits above everyone else. Balance patches only exist to shake up the meta and cycle who gets to stand on top. A sign of a healthy meta is when builds on every class are able to be competetive, even if operating at a lower power level than the FoTM specs. 

I do see what you're getting at with indirect buffs/nerfs, and I agree that playing whack'a'mole with whatever rises as the FotM spec is not the way to balance the game. Trends should come and go, and the meta should shift on its own. Whatever counters the current FotM should in theory rise to be the new FotM, and then whatever counters that etc.

We only have a balance problem if that natural meta rotation doesn't happen. If one spec sits at the top, is overrepresented in the player population, and nothing comes along to counter it. If everyone playing scissors doesn't cause more players to pick up rock, that's when you might need to tweak balance, not just as a knee-jerk reaction to scissors doing well right now.

The reality is of course a little more nuanced, since we have such a large pool of specs to balance against each other. But the point is you can't nerf whatever is on top just because it's on top.

[Shagie.7612]

all this pointing out that someone's always going to be top is completely pointless
you aren't smart, you didn't say anything clever, profound, or meaningful, you just patted yourself on the back
if the difference was 5% (not that you can effectively quantify pvp balance like that) nobody would care at all lol

but it's not, the gap between the top and the bottom is massive, heck in some roles/build types the gap between the top and just something mediocre, not even truly awful, is still massive

Edited July 24 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

and I agree that playing whack'a'mole 

vindi with hammer

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

vindi with hammer

Oh so THAT is why the build still exists...

[Shinichi Megure.8061]

15 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

WB is for those who want to play herald, but don't want to learn proper timing, yet still pretend they are doing something risky/skillfull. So many players on dog specs of all kinds, acting like they are not picking the most degen kitten possible becuase they can't play anything remotely skill/punish based.

Disagree WB is a build for new players, it's easy to pick up and have an impact. Pvp needs more builds like this to close the gap between new players and veterans that will improve the match quality. So i would suggest anet should introduce more builds like this and bring back the power mechanist build that was also good for new players.

I agree with OP that Untamed, Staff SPB, Condi Reaper, DE, Mes Support, Strong: Vindi re bad for the match quality

 

[Kuma.1503]

6 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I do see what you're getting at with indirect buffs/nerfs, and I agree that playing whack'a'mole with whatever rises as the FotM spec is not the way to balance the game. Trends should come and go, and the meta should shift on its own. Whatever counters the current FotM should in theory rise to be the new FotM, and then whatever counters that etc.

That is close to what I was trying to say. 

In the past I've made that exact argument, but these days I'm not necessarily against whack-a-mole balance. I'm just advising people to adjust their expectations. 

The end result of a balance patch is difficult if not impossible to predict. Even if the devs nail this next balance patch and hit the correct outliers in just the right way, the meta that results likely won't be as rosy as players expect. But it will shake up the meta. 

6 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

We only have a balance problem if that natural meta rotation doesn't happen. If one spec sits at the top, is overrepresented in the player population, and nothing comes along to counter it. If everyone playing scissors doesn't cause more players to pick up rock, that's when you might need to tweak balance, not just as a knee-jerk reaction to scissors doing well right now.

Meta adaptations aren't always immediate. They happen at at accelerated pace shortly after a balance patch because this is the period where players are still sorting out the new meta. After this phase, meta shifts occur much slower. 

Understandably, most people would rather not wait anywhere from weeks to months for the meta to adapt, so patches shake it up artificially to help keep things fresh. 

There is a case to be made that whack-a-mole balance makes meta shifts less likely to happen because it results in a narrower pool of viable builds, but that's a rant for another day. 

6 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

The reality is of course a little more nuanced, since we have such a large pool of specs to balance against each other. But the point is you can't nerf whatever is on top just because it's on top.

You certainly can, and that has been the approach we've taken thus far. But players should be informed of what exactly they're asking for and what they can expect. 

Edited July 24 by Kuma.1503

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

3 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

You certainly can, and that has been the approach we've taken thus far. But players should be informed of what exactly they're asking for and what they can expect. 

I feel this just leads to endlessly chasing your tail, certainly if it's not thought out and you just see a spec do well for a few weeks so you kill it. That way you're guaranteed to end up with salty players.

Can't please everyone all the time I suppose.

[Kuma.1503]

10 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I feel this just leads to endlessly chasing your tail, certainly if it's not thought out and you just see a spec do well for a few weeks so you kill it. That way you're guaranteed to end up with salty players.

Can't please everyone all the time I suppose.

That's been the end result for as long as I've been here at least. 

There is a better solution, but it's one we're not likely to get. That is to shift our focus away from shaving off the top, and towards promoting the kinds of gameplay patters that result in healthier/ more enjoyable combat. There are also certain changes we can make that will make combat more enjoyable regardless of which builds are on top. 

One of the biggest issues with PvP for a long time has been Gw2's visual clarity issues. Toning down visual noise, improving telegraphs for the most impactful skills, decluttering the buff/debuff bar, making important boons easier to detect at a glance (stability), cleaning up bloated trait interactions...

To this day people still misinterpret which abilities are resulting in their death, and people still complain about condi burst when 90% of what killed them was power damage. 

Will ANet fix this? Not likely. Instead, what we get is whack-a-mole balance that will never leave the player base satisfied. 

 

[Flowki.7194]

10 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I reiterate
Willbender casts f3; port + stab
Then they spam all their stuff; they have stab+prot+fractal  tier dps <= THEY HAVE FRACTAL-TIER DPS AND YOU DO NOT; THIS IS WHERE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BLOCK.
Then f3 runs out and they can't freecast anymore <= THIS IS WHERE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO CC THEM.

Then they cast renewed focus. They will cast F3 again, you block again (or stealth, or sit on no port spot or whatever), then it expires again, then you stun them again, then you kill them.

This is literally how every willbender matchup works. The build in particular doesn't have much room for customization, it's on rails. That's literally all they do: f3 gives stab, they pump damage, then they run away unless you stun them.

The base mechanics of WB and DH are next level degen, and always have been. I cannot stand any front loaded spec where you have to "wait out" their eye watering damage before you can interact with them. It has nothing to do with meta status, just simply how it is to fight it. I keep pointing to herald becuase of how similar in dps role it is to WB.. but the mechanics of gaurd are way too casual friendly, stopping WBs being punished for making silly engagements. In-fact let me rephrase that. When mechanics are so fool proof, it is no longer "silly" to TP into a 1v2, dish out dmg the "can" kill a player in under 3 seconds, then renew> escape if you fail. Thats now a viable tactic.. based on how casual WB dps application is. Heralds are not doing that unless p1/2.. yet the average gold WB is pulling that kinde kitten off. That is why you see 10x WBs for every 1 power rev <am i wrong?>

 

5 hours ago, Shinichi Megure.8061 said:

Disagree WB is a build for new players, it's easy to pick up and have an impact. Pvp needs more builds like this to close the gap between new players and veterans that will improve the match quality. So i would suggest anet should introduce more builds like this and bring back the power mechanist build that was also good for new players.

I agree with OP that Untamed, Staff SPB, Condi Reaper, DE, Mes Support, Strong: Vindi re bad for the match quality

 

No way, what you do there is lock the MMR so less skilled players only play less skilled players, and higher skilled players only play higher skilled players. Some would call that a functional ranked system. In that functional ranked system, a high skill floor spec does not matter at low rank, becuase all players at that level are just as bad at it, hense why they are at low rank. You see?

 

What you are asking for is a free pass on learning how to play a spec, and the punishment for getting it wrong. WB/DH are just two of many specs that are in that catigory.. and the issue is that all of those specs are also now great/meta. So, take a g3 herald and a g3 wb, the g3 wb has a much better chance of getting to plat now, becuase WB dps/application mechanics are a hard carry compared to herald. Don't beleive me, again.. play sPVP and see for yourself. In terms of power herald specifically, something like 15/20 WB for every 1 power herald. Both very similar roles.. <can't use roles as an excuse for that vastly lopsided representation>. Could it be that WB is more foolproof? Na.. couldn't possibly be that, no cope here.

Edited July 24 by Flowki.7194

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I cannot stand any front loaded spec where you have to "wait out" their eye watering damage before you can interact with them.

This is really the annoying bit, yes. @Terrorhuz.4695 makes it sound like some great and enduring vulnerability, but in reality all he described is either passively waiting out the storm or burning active defenses - either way you just have to let fractal-level DPS happen with no response because the WB wanted it to happen.

[Flowki.7194]

30 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This is really the annoying bit, yes. @Terrorhuz.4695 makes it sound like some great and enduring vulnerability, but in reality all he described is either passively waiting out the storm or burning active defenses - either way you just have to let fractal-level DPS happen with no response because the WB wanted it to happen.

Becuase mesmer is the same

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Vindicator is OP and needs hard nerfing.

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Vindicator is OP and needs hard nerfing.

ranger is in more dire need sweety ^^