ANet's engagement rate with the WvW community through the official forum

[Hesione.9412]

2 hours ago, Roy Marks.7689 said:

Hey there!

I just wanted to jump in on this thread and let folks know that I do actively read this sub-forum to gather feedback and read the discussions going on about WvW. I understand that not seeing direct comments from me can raise the question of how often I'm coming here, but I am actively reading through most threads and comments, and often times find it easier to read through everything and compile feedback from folks without commenting directly. As I've done previously - and plan to continue to do - if I feel as though I want clarification on something or want to expand a specific discussion point I will comment on it.

Thank you for the discussions and feedbacks ❤️ 

 

Cheers,

Roy

Hey Roy, thanks for letting us know, although I think this depresses me more than if I knew you weren't reading the forums.

[Atoclone.4810]

thanks for popping in but it would be nice to actually get some responses on things. we see a lot of the same posts requesting boonball, ele, cele, wb etc gets nerfed and changed. we know from the patch notes that some of these never get followed up on, it would be nice to hear why. I'm guessing that for a lot of them it's due to things we as the player have no visibility of to a limitation of the game. and that's fine. however by not responding to these you get the endless posts with a spiralling view of how the company is doing things, the longer they go unattended the worse the impression gets.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

17 hours ago, Roy Marks.7689 said:

Hey there!

I just wanted to jump in on this thread and let folks know that I do actively read this sub-forum to gather feedback and read the discussions going on about WvW. I understand that not seeing direct comments from me can raise the question of how often I'm coming here, but I am actively reading through most threads and comments, and often times find it easier to read through everything and compile feedback from folks without commenting directly. As I've done previously - and plan to continue to do - if I feel as though I want clarification on something or want to expand a specific discussion point I will comment on it.

Thank you for the discussions and feedbacks ❤️ 

 

Cheers,

Roy

Reading =/= communication.   

"As I've done previously - and plan to continue to do - if I feel as though I want clarification on something or want to expand a specific discussion point I will comment on it."

Of course this is the policy at ArenaNet.  Just read, ignore and do the changes anyways.  Vote with your money if you want any actual change.

[Cael.3960]

It's important t o recognize that "engagement" doesn't require the devs to be actionable with regards to the demands made of them on this or any other forum. Community interactions are a form of outsourcing for novel ideas, criticism, and general player sentiment. There are good ideas, bad ideas, and ideas that simply can't be realized with the systems which are currently in place. Players may not realize, or understand, that some requests are not just impractical from a design perspective but may be impossible with regards to the greater financial realities of the developer. Similarly, developers may have an internalized design vision that has lost touch with their consumers (we are a fickle bunch and change in taste quickly outpaces development in most respects) and need to recognize when greater flexibility/transparency is necessary to maintain a quality relationship. 

We also live in an age where social sensitivities place a considerable weight on all official discourse between developer and the player. This sensitivity often extends to one's personal opinions and sentiments as well, so it's very difficult for individuals with employment responsibilities to speak their mind without being cognizant of what the impact might be. Especially on officially sanctioned platforms where they WILL be held to account for what is said. This requires every response to be carefully considered, carefully written, and often noncommittal unless explicitly signed-off by someone with the authority to do so. Understandably this can hurt the speed of response, and depth, of any discussion by individual devs on an official platform. You are being heard, make no mistake, but that response is slow and measured for good reason.  

Ideally a safe, accepting space exists where players and devs can speak freely without fear of judgement or bias and solicit contrasting perspectives to create a more cohesive and satisfying experience for everyone. The reality is that places like these are often found only in unofficial channels where there is an explicit understanding among it's members that no one shall be attacked for expressing their opinions, and that all discussions are to be had in an 'unofficial' capacity with no expectation that it will be actionable. A forum for ideas, criticism and general player sentiment. From places like that, devs are free to take this advice and do with it what they will. Whether that's to adjust or enhance their systems/design philosophy or ignore it (for now) because the current state of implementation must be finished before anything else can be done with it.

Considering the official nature of this forum, that's unlikely to ever happen here. But I feel you'll see more engagement, more discussion, and more dev insight when the atmosphere is less combative/cynical and more reasoned with it's approach.

[Mabi black.1824]

17 hours ago, Cael.3960 said:

From places like that, devs are free to take this advice and do with it what they will. Whether that's to adjust or enhance their systems/design philosophy or ignore it (for now) because the current state of implementation must be finished before anything else can be done with it.

In the past, if I remember correctly, it seems to me that I suggested in this forum to Anet to make available a figure who also participates in a marginal way, who works in this sector, in this company with one foot in and one foot out, who can openly declare that every thought/signage/indication/feedback that he writes in here has in any case an exclusively personal value,   ANET or its working group are in no way involved and/or responsible.

You introduce yourself, you declare what your figure is here, you declare that every thought and / or word written here is in any case of exclusively personal value and that Anet has nothing to do with it, and you freely participate in any conversation you want in here. of corse it must be a prepared figure and still use a good dose of caution, but he can also speak freely, he is not representing anyone officially. Surely this forum would sound a much more harmonious music in this way.

Instead of a red stripe that says ''Anet's staff'', you give it a yellow stripe that says ''External collaborator'', just for example.

Edited July 25 by Mabi black.1824

[TheGrimm.5624]

So this is where they are missing the mark. Did I miss where they said they are reversing the scoring or the number of tiers? If so this should have been a thread of its own. This was a missed opportunity. 

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

On 7/23/2024 at 12:59 PM, Roy Marks.7689 said:

Hey there!

I just wanted to jump in on this thread and let folks know that I do actively read this sub-forum to gather feedback and read the discussions going on about WvW. I understand that not seeing direct comments from me can raise the question of how often I'm coming here, but I am actively reading through most threads and comments, and often times find it easier to read through everything and compile feedback from folks without commenting directly. As I've done previously - and plan to continue to do - if I feel as though I want clarification on something or want to expand a specific discussion point I will comment on it.

Thank you for the discussions and feedbacks ❤️ 

 

Cheers,

Roy

I'm sorry, but I don't think this answer lets us know that the actual grievance is understood. I think it's crucial to ask, why is it that we feel you or anyone else from Anet aren't listening to our feedback in the first place? It isn't because of your silence, per se.
To point, I'm highlighting Gauis' comment here:

On 7/23/2024 at 4:33 AM, Gauis.2768 said:

So for the devs to say they read feedback but their actions more often than not showing otherwise... I raise my initial question once again 'Can Anet please come forward and tell us how exactly are they expecting members of the community to know that their feedback is actually taken? '

The thread wasn't made to simply ask whether you read our feedback or not. It's instead asking how you/Anet can reassure us that our feedback has any value beyond just your words.
When we have things like:
Numerous and specific concerns/feedback that have been brought up for several years and were never addressed.
Change after change that have left many of us scratching our heads as to who has been asking for them, because it definitely hasn't been any of us here, in the game, on reddit, etc.
No explanations as to why various changes were made, even when posts kept bringing them up.

Are there particular spaces you belong to where people have indeed been asking for the changes that had been criticized in this forum? Because perhaps it would be more than fair to let the rest of us know what these spaces are, so that we too can participate in them and bring our own perspectives.

I want to be clear- Yes, most of us here understand that Anet cannot fulfill everyone's wishlist of what WvW should be in their eyes. However. When you make changes like siege disruptors, or 50% wall repair, or nerfing defensive play in general when these aspects have never been an issue for the community at large (on the flip side, when changes regarding long-standing issues are left unaddressed)... logic points to either you are not listening OR you are listening but to a very select few that doesn't include the rest of the community. "We listen" comes with very, very little credibility when our experiences show otherwise.

[Sheff.4851]

2 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

However. When you make changes like siege disruptors, or 50% wall repair, or nerfing defensive play in general when these aspects have never been an issue for the community at large (on the flip side, when changes regarding long-standing issues are left unaddressed)... logic points to either you are not listening OR you are listening but to a very select few that doesn't include the rest of the community. "We listen" comes with very, very little credibility when our experiences show otherwise.

I've only spent a couple months browsing the forums, but it seems like there's only about 30 active posters here, and the vast majority of them are playing small-scale, or solo, based on the polls that people do every week or so. I'm not sure this community is any less of a "select few" than other World vs. World communities, because outside of that specific demographic, a lot of the World vs. World changes have been good for other groups of players. Fight groups have been asking for nerfs to defense for years, new players have been asking for more pips and easier gearing for years, the scoring changes have had flaws in them exposed since Seasons, adding your squad message as mouseover text is a good change for communicating, being able to toggle the visibility of your tag is a good QoL change, etc, etc.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/23/2024 at 1:16 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

Posters on this forum tend to be far too cynical. That cynicism gets in the way of meaningful dialog.

Anet deserves it with how they have handled this game for over a decade.

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Anet deserves it with how they have handled this game for over a decade.

Criticism from a poor job is always deserved.  Where do you get the idea that such criticism is the same as cynicism?  Even if the devs do start to handle the game better, the cynic has already closed their mind.  Cynicism doesn't care about such evidence, always dismissing everything, and this causes the cynic to become less collaborative in anything constructive.  Cynicism detracts from one's self.

Edited July 27 by Chaba.5410

[Ashen.2907]

ANet has, on multiple occasions over the years, acknowledged that they need to do better at communication with and engagement with the player base. They have, on multiple occasions over the years, assured that they would put in the effort to do better. Each time they go silent, or nearly so, almost immediately only to make the same acknowledgement and assurance statements again. It isn't going to get better folks. ANet does not actually want it. When they say otherwise it is just an attempt to pacify players for a little while when things on the forum get particularly rowdy.

[willow.8209]

WvW or any other mode, communication from Anet is weak.

There would be a lot less speculation if Anet communicated more.

And I agree that sparse announcements is not dialog or interaction. 

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

On 7/27/2024 at 8:41 AM, Sheff.4851 said:

I've only spent a couple months browsing the forums, but it seems like there's only about 30 active posters here, and the vast majority of them are playing small-scale, or solo, based on the polls that people do every week or so. I'm not sure this community is any less of a "select few" than other World vs. World communities, because outside of that specific demographic, a lot of the World vs. World changes have been good for other groups of players.

I don't think you understand what I mean. Was there a part in my post where I asked for them to just focus on forum posters?
Instead, I asked what spaces they are far more actively taking feedback from, so that the rest of us (from forums, reddit, other platforms) can make sure that we go to those spaces and provide our feedback there.

Of note, it is Anet's responsibility to direct people towards a central form of communication. It makes sense for me to see their official forums as the main way from which they gather feedback. If the forums aren't being utilized for that purpose, then perhaps changes need to be made in order for it to actually serve that purpose. Otherwise, why are we here?

On 7/27/2024 at 8:41 AM, Sheff.4851 said:

Fight groups have been asking for nerfs to defense for years, new players have been asking for more pips and easier gearing for years, the scoring changes have had flaws in them exposed since Seasons, adding your squad message as mouseover text is a good change for communicating, being able to toggle the visibility of your tag is a good QoL change, etc, etc.

This has been going on for awhile, so yes, there have been MANY changes over the years. To say that all of them were negative wouldn't be accurate.
But that's not the point of the post either, isn't it? If the direction of the game mode is heavily favoring only a subsection of the playerbase, how can the rest of us who do not belong to that group feel like our feedback is also valued?

That's the point. Please stop moving away from that point.

[Sheff.4851]

1 hour ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

This has been going on for awhile, so yes, there have been MANY changes over the years. To say that all of them were negative wouldn't be accurate.
But that's not the point of the post either, isn't it? If the direction of the game mode is heavily favoring only a subsection of the playerbase, how can the rest of us who do not belong to that group feel like our feedback is also valued?

That's the point. Please stop moving away from that point.

I was just responding to what you wrote here:

Quote

When you make changes like siege disruptors, or 50% wall repair, or nerfing defensive play in general when these aspects have never been an issue for the community at large

I thought that it was part of the point being made in this argument, since you brought it up. Defense aspects have been an issue for the community at large. ArenaNet's changes to these activities do reflect feedback that they've received through the forums and elsewhere.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/23/2024 at 3:59 PM, Roy Marks.7689 said:

Hey there!

I just wanted to jump in on this thread and let folks know that I do actively read this sub-forum to gather feedback and read the discussions going on about WvW. I understand that not seeing direct comments from me can raise the question of how often I'm coming here, but I am actively reading through most threads and comments, and often times find it easier to read through everything and compile feedback from folks without commenting directly. As I've done previously - and plan to continue to do - if I feel as though I want clarification on something or want to expand a specific discussion point I will comment on it.

Thank you for the discussions and feedbacks ❤️ 

 

Cheers,

Roy

Respect where it's due for sticking your neck out in front of the community.  As highly-critical of this game and its direction as I am, nobody here can prove you're doing nothing; it's impossible to prove a negative, and thus you won't find me critical of you responding when called.

---

I think a lot of people here don't recognize that the WvW dev team has no influence on profession design/balance as was stated in Sheff's interview recently.

It's absolutely ridiculous that the very cornerstone of this game's combat is not at all influenced by the PvP/WvW communities (considering the community at large is VERY anti-boonball at this point), but it's the reality we're in.  The blame lies squarely with game direction and the skills/systems team failing to walk back their mistakes or take time to step back to correct them.
For issues with warclaw, siege/supply, matchmaking/alliances, or whatever, go ahead and provide feedback and at least Roy is saying he's listening.  Actions do speak louder than words, but again, this thread was challenging communication and engagement, and while I've been critical on that front before in the case of the link thread below in respects to VFX problems, anyone still being a critic on this topic has just been shown they need to eat their hat.

 

And being totally honest, few people have any semblance of understanding about the ramifications about their demands.  Like how the common demand to increase boon denial will actually make the game *even worse* when it comes to boon hyper-dependence.  So it might be they're taking the feedback from many into account, then shortly after thinking about it going "Wait no, that's stupid."

Could there be more transparency in the rationale behind why certain changes are made to WvW, especially in respects to rejecting common requests as to educate the population and hopefully reduce the number of redundant threads/discussions and justify the changes better?  Absolutely yes.  But let's also accept the fact ANet historically has been awful about doing so in respects to all the types of changes they've made across all game modes.  This isn't League of Legends where those breakdowns happen and have happened for ages.

 

[Kozumi.5816]

45 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

the WvW dev team has no influence on profession design/balance as was stated in Sheff's interview recently.

There's no way this is true, there has been multiple elite classes designed specifically for WvW. Scourge and Firebrand, to name two.

There's also WvW only balance changes, like how druid doesn't give alacrity.

Also I'd like to know why Willbender needs so many dashes it can instantly get out of draw distance for PvP and PvE?

Sounds like a big fat lie.

Edited July 29 by Kozumi.5816

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

There's also WvW only balance changes, like how druid doesn't give alacrity.

Correlation does not imply causation.

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

5 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

I was just responding to what you wrote here:

I thought that it was part of the point being made in this argument, since you brought it up. Defense aspects have been an issue for the community at large. ArenaNet's changes to these activities do reflect feedback that they've received through the forums and elsewhere.

Ok, let me elaborate. Why would I bring up defense if many people were asking for them?
Because defensive activities have already been nerfed, more than a few times, to the point where nobody wants to participate in them- AND YET they continue to nerf them. Including this most recent patch, though some in more indirect ways than others.
And when we're talking about nerfing defense, I'm not just talking nerfing siege damage or the like. I'm talking nerfs towards participation or even rewards, and players being actively discouraged from playing this aspect of the game. Why?

Are you telling me that these fight groups wanted all of this?
And even if they do, at what point does Anet decide for themselves not to acquiesce to just one playstyle and actually consider the rest? Are fight groups (at least within the subject of defending) the only group of players whose opinions get weighed? Again, I'm asking why.

The biggest problem with the combination of changes they've been making and their lack of communication regarding those changes, is that those of us outside of the glorified "fight groups" are left wondering if we still have a place in this community.
What direction are they taking this game mode? Are they wanting to get rid of its tower defense aspects? Do they want this to just be a 50v50v50 kind of pvp as opposed to how it has been (a combination of different styles)? These are some of the answers I, and I'm sure many others, would love to know. These are things that they should be clear and detailed about as they change the way WvW works entirely.

Lastly, since you keep on heavily implying that all the changes they've made have been well-received by the larger community...
In every single playthrough I've been in, since they began their server linking changes aaaall the way up to now, the general sentiment within the game regarding WvW have only declined since and have increased in severity in the most recent years. This is, of course, anecdotal but it does challenge the notion that these changes have been nothing but healthy.

But again, this circles back to the point of this whole thread: transparency and communication. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Anet were more true to their word.
 

Edited July 29 by meerfunkuhtron.9725

[Kozumi.5816]

13 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

is that those of us outside of the glorified "fight groups" are left wondering if we still have a place in this community.

We don't, so when the few "fight" groups get bored of fighting each other WvW can die the death it deserves.