Ele in PvP

[Sahne.6950]

20 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

BUGS
in the traits.

What traits are broken?

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Its so weird, the only Eles ive seen in sPvP are gods you cant touch or dead weights to their team.

Cant seem to find anything in between.

This is not true, I've fought players who are in-between. What you maybe experience is, your build/skill/team just rolls over the ones who are in-between.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

A lot of the threads lately seem to be people grappling with not having mastery over their own skills while contemptuously trivializing the efforts of classes they don't play into [nebulous clouds of unfairness] that always seem to be whereever their class of choice isn't. 

Scepter ele bursts didn't go anywhere. Idk why people are talking about funny damage numbers when ele can do that from across the map. 

Edited July 29 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Not something to be oversimplified:

1. Yes, pushing 1 button for 10k is easier to execute initially. However, a single attack can be avoided easily and all that damage whiffs. A good example was old Strength Spellbreakers before resistance on dodge rolling. They had huge damage coming off of their attacks, but every attack was a single strike. This made it extremely difficult to deal damage through blind spam or aegis spam.
2. 10 different strikes for 1k each that requires pushing 3 or 4 buttons to execute may be slightly more complex to combo, but mechanically this is not so easy to avoid. The multiple strikes will fight through things like blind spam or aegis spam or even things like shock aura, ensuring that most of the damage lands.

One could say that: "big single strike for 10ks are easier to understand & perform but come with a great deal of risk vs. reward, whereas 10 strike combo at 1k damage each may be more difficult to perform initially, but ultimately ensures that damage lands much more consistently."

 

Yes.

I've come to appreciate under duress that getting a single strike to land in the current meta requires a high amount of rolling game knowledge and discipline, so much so that it ends up justifying the button press itself being simple.

Unfortunately, there only seems to be one class beholden to that playstyle and it doesnt hit for 10k anymore because everyone has protection, but what can you do~

Edited July 29 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Eurantien.4632]

23 hours ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

# of buttons =/= class difficulty

23 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Not directly related, ok...

 

23 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Why does ele in PvP (but also in WvW) need twitce the player skill (and five times the number of skills) to do less than all the other classes?

...?

 

[Swagg.9236]

Muscle memory isn't a high skill threshold on its own, and that was ultimately all Elementalist was given that the user is forced into 8-10 second cooldowns between stances in most cases.

Originally, the fact that Elementalist had so many buttons meant that it dominated without trying because it never ran out of gas for self-healing and outgoing damage options.

The reason you feel slighted by the current situation is because you're personally invested in the class' success without realizing that it was only one of two primordial gameplay loops which have never stopped dominating this game's PvP interaction dynamic.  Instead of anet working on broadening the gameplay loop issue and the fundamental lack of unique class roles, they basically just made every other class into 2013-era Elementalists and/or Thieves (raw damage powercreep notwithstanding).

 

GW2 isn't hard.  Every class is an ele now because the game never got any more complex after launch.

[asket.5674]

On 7/29/2024 at 5:59 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Not something to be oversimplified:

1. Yes, pushing 1 button for 10k is easier to execute initially. However, a single attack can be avoided easily and all that damage whiffs. A good example was old Strength Spellbreakers before resistance on dodge rolling. They had huge damage coming off of their attacks, but every attack was a single strike. This made it extremely difficult to deal damage through blind spam or aegis spam.
2. 10 different strikes for 1k each that requires pushing 3 or 4 buttons to execute may be slightly more complex to combo, but mechanically this is not so easy to avoid. The multiple strikes will fight through things like blind spam or aegis spam or even things like shock aura, ensuring that most of the damage lands.

One could say that: "big single strike for 10ks are easier to understand & perform but come with a great deal of risk vs. reward, whereas 10 strike combo at 1k damage each may be more difficult to perform initially, but ultimately ensures that damage lands much more consistently."

 

Yeah thats a funny theory, thats not feasible to 100% in practice. Stomping on my willbender or untamed is just far easier as on my weaver. 
there are some situations though where your points are valid, overall though, performing well on wb or ut is easier. At least in low plat. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, asket.5674 said:

Yeah thats a funny theory, thats not feasible to 100% in practice. Stomping on my willbender or untamed is just far easier as on my weaver. 
there are some situations though where your points are valid, overall though, performing well on wb or ut is easier. At least in low plat. 

1. Willbender is a bunch of symbols & spin to wins that stacks APM on top of each other. That is not single striking.
2. Untamed is also different than other Ranger specs in this regard. Due to the extra pet unleash skills on top of normal pet skills, it creates a similar effect when the pet ports in at the same time the Untamed pushes an offense. There are a bunch extra damage ticks coming off the pet in fast succession that eats through blinds & aegis spam. Normal pet attacks require animation cast time, but unleash pet skills just pop instantly and at the same time the pet is autoing. It's like the same thing as a Guard popping a symbol under someone before he uses sword 4 & 5.

But here is a HOT TAKE for you think about:

Ele has 20 weapon skills between 4 weapon swaps. Normal classes have 10 weapon skills between two weapon swaps. To balance Ele having 20 weapon skills, of course they would all need to be weaker than a normal class with 10 weapon skills. If you didn't do this, Ele would benefit a few massive advantages:

1. Normal classes must swap from swap 1 to swap 2 to swap 1 to swap 2. This makes telegraphs and narrows down for the opponent easier judgement of what is going to happen next. But Ele has 4 different swaps, which it can change up the cycle/routine of which swap it uses in what order. This is very confusing for opponents to judge what's going to happen next, on top of the fact that the animations are so slight behind pixel spam to begin with. Ele has a natural advantage of bypassing telegraphs here.
2. Normal classes can run through all their weapon skill CDs on both swaps in about 4 or 5 seconds and then they've got nothing. "Blow all CDs on swap 1, swap to swap 2, blow all CDs in about 3 seconds, now you're waiting 6s before you even have weapon skills to use". So normal classes have to really pick & choose when to use those CDs or they make themselves extremely vulnerable during a long CD phase. Ele can literally spam its CDs off CD constantly, and due to 4 weapon swaps and 20 skills to use, on top of overcharges and all that, and never actually go on a CD phase. They always have something to use and it is in their actual benefit to keep casting/spamming w/e it is they have to throw at you on w/e attunement they are currently on. You've got to understand that Eles are spamming twice as many weapon skills as any other class. If their individual weapon skills were as strong as other class individual skills, an Ele would floor you and it wouldn't even need to use utility skills to do it. Imagine if a Spellbreaker came at you and he had 4 weapon swaps and could continuously spam weapon skills with no care or regard for CDs and in fact, it was advantageous for him to blow through CDs as quickly as possible so he could stack those APMs.
3. Due to the never ending flow of weapon skill attacks coming off Ele and its ability to change up how it cycles through 4 weapon swaps to create difficult to telegraph routines that also have little to no animation tells, the Ele's weapon skills have to be weaker than a class with only 2 weapon swaps or it would be way too strong. All the Ele's skills are meant to be combo skills so 2 button presses are worth 1 press on a normal class. This is just what the class is and what it has to be. But even so, due to this, it still benefits what we were talking about, concerning the idea behind "It is harder to avoid 20 attacks in 10s than it is to avoid 10 attacks in 10s".

Look, I can 1v1 a mediocre or worse Spellbreaker and kill it without ever taking damage. But I have to take damage while 1v1ing what would be considered even a bad Ele. Consider what's going on there & why, and how veteran Ele players can wield that kind of forced pressure. This is why Ele is the most annoying class when its numbers are tweaked too high, because the nature of its design "never ending AoE weapon attacks" this FORCES the opponent to have to take damage and there really isn't counterplay around the fact that you will take damage vs. an Ele. Against other classes that are single strike oriented with only 2 swaps, even if they are currently OP, it is possible to bait them and counterplay just right where you can simply avoid their attacks and win while taking no damage. You can't do that with Ele. When you engage an Ele you will take damage. This goes back into what we were saying to begin with.

One could say that it is easier to look at a Warrior's weapon skills and start using them, and I would agree. But one could also say that even though it is more difficult to learn Ele attack streams initially, the Ele attack streams are actually easier to wield in higher tiers because they FORCE damage once you've learned those streams. At higher tiers of play, Ele isn't a risk vs. reward class. It's like the opposite of that. Ele's design is a stat check. Ele play is more about knowing what you can bully and what you can't. At higher levels of play it doesn't have high risk vs reward options like a Thief does. It just has a set of skill cycle routines that it must use vs. certain classes in a certain way. When those numbers are tweaked too high, Ele becomes impossible to deal with. When those numbers are too low, then the Ele very quickly falls out of viability. And there isn't really a lot of room to play around that due to its design.

Considering this, is it really harder to play at higher levels? I don't think it is. Ele is harder to learn initially, but once you've developed the motor memory of what cycles to use vs. w/e class is approaching you, there isn't much more to it than that. Either its numbers are good for the meta or they aren't. The class Ele doesn't provide a wide array of mechanical inginuity to play with in the same way as a Thief does, as example.

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ele has 20 weapon skills between 4 weapon swaps. Normal classes have 10 weapon skills between two weapon swaps.

First of all: that confused reaction is not me.   i hate people that just vote confused, but dont even answer.

 

The thing is.... No class has 10 weaponskills.  Thats just not true.

Necro has shroud, which adds 5, so its 15.

SPB has rampage+ FC+ burstskills.... 17

Engie kits.... 

Ranger pet skills+ Druid form.... depending on build, those can easily surpass 17 buttons.

Guardian f1-3....

Mesmer shatters.....

Most builds have atleast 13, with the sole exception of Warriors not running rampage, they have 12. 

Saying:  Ele has 20 skills... so they need to be worse, compared to the other classes 10 skills.....        is not only wrong....   but some kind of reverse-flowki argument.

 

This is the same mental ballpark as comparing Deathdrop to a ranger Maul.

Sry but that post wasnt your best one.

Edited July 30 by Sahne.6950
Shortened the post, as i was producing a Textwall, and noone likes textwalls. I gotta go, but we can surely talk about this tomorrow. (if you fancy it.)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

20 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

First of all: that confused reaction is not me.   i hate people that just vote confused, but dont even answer.

 

The thing is.... No class has 10 weaponskills.  Thats just not true.

Necro has shroud, which adds 5, so its 15.

SPB has rampage+ FC+ burstskills.... 17

Engie kits.... 

Ranger pet skills+ Druid form.... depending on build, those can easily surpass 17 buttons.

Guardian f1-3....

Mesmer shatters.....

Most builds have atleast 13, with the sole exception of Warriors not running rampage, they have 12. 

Saying:  Ele has 20 skills... so they need to be worse, compared to the other classes 10 skills.....        is not only wrong....   but some kind of reverse-flowki argument.

Let's put the classes in an order from 1 to 9, depending on who has the most weapon skills including kits, with realistic builds:

1. Tempest - 20 attack skills amongst 4 attunements, each 4 overload also weapon skills, + conjure earth shield 5 skills = 29 cycling weapon/kit oriented skills.
2.  Firebrand - 10 weapon skills on 2 swaps + F1 kit 5 = 15 weapon skills, and then 25 weapon skills if you want to count defense spam on F2 and F3.
3.  Druid - 10 weapon skills on 2 swaps + 2 F2 pet skills + CA Kit 5 = 17 weapon skills. Untamed would get 24 counting all pet skills, all unleash F skills and ambush skills.
4. Holo - 5 weapon attacks no swap + 4 tool belts + 5 forge skills + use of one kit = 19 weapon/kit skills.
5. Necros - 10 attacks amongst 2 swaps + 5 shroud skills = 15 realistic weapon/kit skills, 20 if you count Lich.
6. Chrono/Virt - 10 attacks amongst 2 swaps + 5 F skills, no kits = 15 cycling weapon skills.
7. Spellbreaker - 10 weapon skills on 2 swaps + 2 bursts + 1 FC = 13 realistic weapon skills, 18 if you count Rampage.
8. Specter - 10 weapon skills on 2 swaps + 5 shroud = 15 weapon skills, other thieves get only 12.
9.  Renegade - 10 weapon skills on 2 swaps + 3 F skills = 13 weapon skills, 14 if you count legend swap.

Ele definitely has by far the most cycling direct attacks. Virtually everything it does deals damage or CCs you, even when it's healing.

56 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

most of eles skills are crazy stronk.

Yeah but the playstyle is completely different. Things like a War or a Thief run out of CDs or init very fast. They have to like wait and counter-offensively use CDs wisely. For them, it's all about using the skill at the exact right time so it is no wasted, and not using skills too quickly. An Ele never runs out of CDs to use so generally the play style isn't concerned with mitigating your CD usage, as much as it is thinking 2 steps ahead about "what combos am I lining myself up for next so it accommodates what the other guy is going to do." Ele is more concerned with where the flow of its never ending CD cycle is going, not preserving it. It's two completely different playstyles. The Ele gets to constantly pump CDs, most of which are dealing AoE damage both power and condi. That's where its strength is.

What I was pointing out to that other guy was that not every Ele skill can be dealing Ranger Maul or Heartseeker level damage due to the Ele design flow, or we'd have problems.

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

2) conditional useage of skills

They already turned alot of eles skills into "support" skills.  Support in the way that you need to land the 1 skill, in order to use the other one.   

examples: sceptre 2->3.      The 3 wont apply condis, if you havent landed the 2 first.

sceptre focus water 2/5->3     The waterspear wont hurt if you dont apply chill first with your other skills.

Exactly, that's what I meant when I said "Every 2 Ele weapon skills is worth like 1 skill off of most other builds". Difficult to learn at first, but rewarding in the end due to the idea that 10 attacks in 10s is easier to avoid/mitigate than 20 attacks in 10s.

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

3) Cooldowns.   Every ele skills has very large cooldowns.  When comparing OONGABOONGA Untamed, with lets FA Weaver, you will quickly realize that infact the OONGABOONGA can press more buttons per second.     On ele you ltierally rofl thru your skills once and thats it.  your dmg will plummet if you just keep hammering.   You need to execute tight combos with CC, otherwise you dont hurt.

Yes but Fresh Air high powered front loaded ranged like that absolutely shreds full melee Untamed mace/mace/hammer. He doesn't even have blocks vs. all that channeling and his anti-projectile turtle bubbles & unleash bubble does nothing. The untamed gets one 50% damage for 6s on a 90s CD. If the Ele can bait that skill and kite for 6s, the Ele automatically wins.

Ranger also has similar builds to FA, like Sic Em Soulbeast. You literally have to use everything you have in a 4s to 6s interval and then you're on full build CD for at least 20s, 60s if you count OWP.

Comparing m/m/h Untamed to FA Weaver would be like if I compared Sic Em Soulbeast to a good side node Cata or Tempest that's built right. In that case, the Ele is the aggressor that has never ending buttons to push and the Ranger is in the FA's position of "Use your CDs at right time or whiff and immediately have to run or die trying".

[Sahne.6950]

58 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 They have to like wait and counter-offensively use CDs wisely. For them, it's all about using the skill at the exact right time so it is no wasted, and not using skills too quickly. An Ele never runs out of CDs to use so generally the play style isn't concerned with mitigating your CD usage

Dont have the time rn to deal with all of what you said.

Just wanted to point out, that this part here is pure nonsense. 

You really think eles can just use their skills whenever and get away with it? Really? Do you actually think good eles are not holding CD's back? 

If you think that, i already figured out why you dont succeeded on ele. You have to hold back your CD's ALOT. you need to chain everything in order to deliver dmg.  

You actually need to hold yourself back with using skills, just to have them all ready on your NEXT rotation to attempt a burst. You dont even need to try to burst someone as a D/D if you dont have Updraft AND Earthquake ready.    they are 25 and 30 second CD.     You need to align those. You gotta know that you have them both ready now, before even going to that attuenement. Hence why oftentimes its wise to skip them on 1 rotation, to be able to use them both back to back on the next one.

  If you just use whatever skill is currently ready when going into a attunement, you will never be able to properly align the skills, thus you will never have a actual good chance at bursting someone.    There is nothing easier to beat, then a ele, that will just throw every move thats ready in a attunement.  its so easy to read....

 

Also... Freshair doesnt "shred" untamed with its upfront dmg. Its not beating untamed at all. What are you talking about. :S

Also regarding the " you cant read ele skills that well"    want to know a tip?    Just look for the fire and air symbols on their buffbar.  you see fire on the bar:  big dmg in coming.   you see air on the bar: CC incoming.      Earth and water?  he is resustaining.          Reading what a ele is about to do isnt as hard as you think. Infact, its rather easy.      

Gale animation is kitten, for it being a 4 second unblockable CC!   i would absolutely agree with that... but other then that, reading a ele is rather easy, simply cuz you can see what attunement they just swapped in.

Now try to read a ranger that just went stealth infront of you....  am i about to eat a 7k maul?    OHH!! its smokeassault!...... wait... that was just the smokescale!!...... AAAAAND... its was a 7k Maul.....   i died.

 

dont become "old trev"  please, i liked the "new trev"

The way you are talking about the ease of use, when it comes to ele skills, almost makes it sound like ele is strong rn....      Playrate and the meta doesnt rly agree tho. 

I think you are underestimating what those ele players are actually doing. If it were that easy...... why cant you, or more people do it? ITs almost like... you cant just mindlessly mash buttons.... weird 😄

Edited July 30 by Sahne.6950
anyways i REALLY gotta go. im getting back to this tomorrow.

[TruthSeeker.3697]

More skills obviously means more spam.
Spam, spam, spam everything on cd. Same with Revenants and their infinite energy.

Playing with fewer skills would have merit if such skills did not come with 5 additional effects and on a short cooldown. Or if they at least had a resource cost.
"It takes more skill to use my kitten every 8s - 12s you know? Also, upkeeping boons/buffs for most of the fight by pressing kitten I was already going to press anyway is pretty hard. Have you seen all the parkour I have to do while I wait for them?"

Edited July 30 by TruthSeeker.3697

[Myror.7521]

@TruthSeeker.3697 nah its not just spam, you still need to know when to do what rotation. Thats the Main reason why its hard to learn in the beginning but once you futured that out its not as difficulty as for example warr where you use both Defence and dmg at the same time with skills that are more than easy dodge able. (At the same time cause your burst skills include both dmg and sustain)

Edited July 30 by Myror.7521

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

52 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You really think eles can just use their skills whenever and get away with it? Really? Do you actually think good eles are not holding CD's back?

That's not what I'm saying. Look:

1. I just went in game to test on my Tempest. I can rotate from F1 to F2 to F3 to F4 and not use autos at all, only use the good skills, and I can spam every skill in every attunement and go to the next attunement and spam every skill and keep doing this, and there is never a downtime where I have to spam autos to fill in time or the only skills I have to use are utilities.
2. Then I went on a DP Daredevil. You can IMMEDIATELY bottom out your init with a couple shortbow 5s, or after a few seconds of staying in combat. There are many times where if you stay in combat, your init bottoms out and you have to fill in space with autos or use utility skills to completely disengage for reset, and during this time your DPS output goes to a complete halt.
3. Went on Spellbreaker, and despite 5s weapon swap trait, the fact of the matter is that some of those skills have long CDs. So if you go ham and start using weapon skills back to back with no hesitation, you get stuck in situations where you swap back to a weapon after 5s but 2 or 3 of your skills are still on CD and you're working with only the low CD skills. You swap to other side, same thing happens. And there is a lot of time that needs to be filled with autos.

An Ele can keep casting it's 2, 3, 4, 5 skills in every attunement, never using autos, swap between each attunement in a cycle, and always have CDs to use that are not autos. What I was pointing out about this, is that an Ele's idea of "preserving CDs" is about knowing how to direct the flow of this, but it always has non-auto weapon skills to use. The Ele's idea of "wasting CDs" is when you swap to an attunement at the wrong time, but even when you do this or switch attunements after, you're still always having non auto weapon skills to use all the time. 

What I was saying is that an Ele, although it could "technically waste a CD at a bad time" it doesn't actually run out of weapon skills. It can literally spam weapon skills 100% of the time. Most other classes cannot do this, and they actually have to stop and wait and slow down the usage of their CDs.

I'm not saying it's OP dude, I'm just explaining to that other guy why Ele weapon skills aren't all loaded like Heartseeker or a Ranger Maul. it's just how they have to balance that rotating cycle of Ele attacks.

Edited July 30 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

I understand what you are saying.      

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That's not what I'm saying. Look:

1. I just went in game to test on my Tempest. I can rotate from F1 to F2 to F3 to F4 and not use autos at all, only use the good skills, and I can spam every skill in every attunement and go to the next attunement and spam every skill and keep doing this, and there is never a downtime where I have to spam autos to fill in time or the only skills I have to use are utilities.
2. Then I went on a DP Daredevil. You can IMMEDIATELY bottom out your init with a couple shortbow 5s, or after a few seconds of staying in combat. There are many times where if you stay in combat, your init bottoms out and you have to fill in space with autos or use utility skills to completely disengage for reset, and during this time your DPS output goes to a complete halt.
3. Went on Spellbreaker, and despite 5s weapon swap trait, the fact of the matter is that some of those skills have long CDs. So if you go ham and start using weapon skills back to back with no hesitation, you get stuck in situations where you swap back to a weapon after 5s but 2 or 3 of your skills are still on CD and you're working with only the low CD skills. You swap to other side, same thing happens. And there is a lot of time that needs to be filled with autos.

An Ele can keep casting it's 2, 3, 4, 5 skills in every attunement, never using autos, swap between each attunement in a cycle, and always have CDs to use that are not autos. What I was pointing out about this, is that an Ele's idea of "preserving CDs" is about knowing how to direct the flow of this, but it always has non-auto weapon skills to use. The Ele's idea of "wasting CDs" is when you swap to an attunement at the wrong time, but even when you do this or switch attunements after, you're still always having non auto weapon skills to use all the time. 

What I was saying is that an Ele, although it could "technically waste a CD at a bad time" it doesn't actually run out of weapon skills. It can literally spam weapon skills 100% of the time. Most other classes cannot do this, and they actually have to stop and wait and slow down the usage of their CDs.

I'm not saying it's OP dude, I'm just explaining to that other guy why Ele weapon skills aren't all loaded like Heartseeker or a Ranger Maul. it's just how they have to balance that rotating cycle of Ele attacks.

We are not on the same page... .we are talking about diffrent things! 😄  lemme try again.

you can go all 4 attunements and press weaponskills nonstop before overloading.... HOORAY... and... what now?  

Mindgames trev! think like an ele for a moment please 😉

 

How usefull is it in a match, when you are fullife, and you start to rofl thru your waterskills?

How usefull is it, when i can use nonstop skills, but they dont rack up enough dmg to actually kill someone?

You wont kill anyone just using 4 elements skill 1->5 and then swapping... thats not gonna work.

If you just use every skill in every attunement, you wont kill anyone, even if doing the right attunement swaps. 

Ele dmg is limited to very few select skills. the AA´s dont hit hard and most weaponskills dont crit harder then 1.5k, even tho you are playing a fragile powerbuild.    if you whiff those few high damaging skills...you wont kill anyone. You need to make sure you land those.    

And you probably also know that!

You simply have very little pressure, outside of those few select OOMPHH moments.   So they need to hit!

 

 

But in order to land those on any semi competent opponent, you need to cc, cuz their are telegraphed.

....and Those CC´s have CRAZY cooldowns.   "Your only CC having 40 second CD-kind of crazy cooldowns"

Alot of ele builds, most notabily anything using a sword, is HEAVILY struggling even when someone just hold W.  Things likey pyrovortex are literally not useable, unless your opponent is held in place by some sort of CC.

 

And thats the crux.

 

If i whiff my Gale, i just blew my only CC that i have and need to wait another 40 seconds before even thinking about faceing that untamed again.

 

Long story short: i think you indeed need to be conservative with your skills. Especially in this stabi bloated meta. CCs are a huge dealbreaker. And you can fk them up even harder then you think prolly...

For example:    Just mashing a CC, if you dont have one of your good dmg skills to follow up the CC, wont get you very far. You stun someone in earth... but you were in fire 6 seconds ago.... to bad... you cant follow up with burning speed into fiery grab.

You need to have everything ready when the window opens. You need to time that with the enemys defenses aswell.   

Its not like we can just mash, cuz its whatever.... and we will still win.   

Thats not how this works.... thats not how any of this works!

 

PS: Just saying: I think most eles would gladly take double the CD on most skills... if we had a AA that was actually dangerous... we NEED to play piano to come even close to what happens when... lets say a DH, presses 1.  

Edited July 30 by Sahne.6950

[asket.5674]

23 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That's not what I'm saying. Look:

1. I just went in game to test on my Tempest. I can rotate from F1 to F2 to F3 to F4 and not use autos at all, only use the good skills, and I can spam every skill in every attunement and go to the next attunement and spam every skill and keep doing this, and there is never a downtime where I have to spam autos to fill in time or the only skills I have to use are utilities.
2. Then I went on a DP Daredevil. You can IMMEDIATELY bottom out your init with a couple shortbow 5s, or after a few seconds of staying in combat. There are many times where if you stay in combat, your init bottoms out and you have to fill in space with autos or use utility skills to completely disengage for reset, and during this time your DPS output goes to a complete halt.
3. Went on Spellbreaker, and despite 5s weapon swap trait, the fact of the matter is that some of those skills have long CDs. So if you go ham and start using weapon skills back to back with no hesitation, you get stuck in situations where you swap back to a weapon after 5s but 2 or 3 of your skills are still on CD and you're working with only the low CD skills. You swap to other side, same thing happens. And there is a lot of time that needs to be filled with autos.

An Ele can keep casting it's 2, 3, 4, 5 skills in every attunement, never using autos, swap between each attunement in a cycle, and always have CDs to use that are not autos. What I was pointing out about this, is that an Ele's idea of "preserving CDs" is about knowing how to direct the flow of this, but it always has non-auto weapon skills to use. The Ele's idea of "wasting CDs" is when you swap to an attunement at the wrong time, but even when you do this or switch attunements after, you're still always having non auto weapon skills to use all the time. 

What I was saying is that an Ele, although it could "technically waste a CD at a bad time" it doesn't actually run out of weapon skills. It can literally spam weapon skills 100% of the time. Most other classes cannot do this, and they actually have to stop and wait and slow down the usage of their CDs.

I'm not saying it's OP dude, I'm just explaining to that other guy why Ele weapon skills aren't all loaded like Heartseeker or a Ranger Maul. it's just how they have to balance that rotating cycle of Ele attacks.

Yeah if you are playing ele with that mindset, rotating your skills constantly through just because its possible, will get you instagibbed in g1+ games. Eles kit is spread over 20 skills, 26 if weaver, so the the skills arent that bloated offense or defense - wise as those of other professions. U need to use ele skills like a scalpel, with precision and yes a solid ele build mostly has a scalpel for every situation but due to class mechanics they arent always available when you need them, especially on weaver. Thats also the reason why the phrase: number skills =\= complexity, Is just not true for ele

[Saiyan.1704]

On 7/29/2024 at 5:00 AM, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Its so weird, the only Eles ive seen in sPvP are gods you cant touch or dead weights to their team.

Cant seem to find anything in between.

It has generally always been that way tbh.

Ele, especially Cata, needed a hard nerf for sure but a nerf to Cata also nerf's other Ele specs along with it... noticeably Weaver. I always thought Weaver was fine but perhaps that's only because they couldn't insta burst me down compared to say, a thief or mesmer.

Cata isn't exactly meta currently but that's only because Vindi/War/Untame are over performing. If they get nerfed, more players would go back to Cata for sidenoding.

[Flowki.7194]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:00 AM, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Its so weird, the only Eles ive seen in sPvP are gods you cant touch or dead weights to their team.

Cant seem to find anything in between.

It was always that way, people who could not play power cata, complaining about how OP and easy it was, when in reality you were lucky to see 1 good cata for every 100 scrapper/slb or w/e it was at that time (the ones doing all the complaining). Its just funny, that for every complaint about a spec like power cata/holo/vindi, the complainers have killed hundreds of bad players on those specs, but they only remember the p2 that handed them their kitten.

 

It really is funny to see that exact same thing play out with vindi, the new cata.

Edited July 30 by Flowki.7194

[Eventine.8024]

On 7/29/2024 at 3:15 PM, Sahne.6950 said:

What traits are broken?

Woven Stride, for once

[Eventine.8024]

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Willbender is a bunch of symbols & spin to wins that stacks APM on top of each other. That is not single striking.
2. Untamed is also different than other Ranger specs in this regard. Due to the extra pet unleash skills on top of normal pet skills, it creates a similar effect when the pet ports in at the same time the Untamed pushes an offense. There are a bunch extra damage ticks coming off the pet in fast succession that eats through blinds & aegis spam. Normal pet attacks require animation cast time, but unleash pet skills just pop instantly and at the same time the pet is autoing. It's like the same thing as a Guard popping a symbol under someone before he uses sword 4 & 5.

But here is a HOT TAKE for you think about:

Ele has 20 weapon skills between 4 weapon swaps. Normal classes have 10 weapon skills between two weapon swaps. To balance Ele having 20 weapon skills, of course they would all need to be weaker than a normal class with 10 weapon skills. If you didn't do this, Ele would benefit a few massive advantages:

1. Normal classes must swap from swap 1 to swap 2 to swap 1 to swap 2. This makes telegraphs and narrows down for the opponent easier judgement of what is going to happen next. But Ele has 4 different swaps, which it can change up the cycle/routine of which swap it uses in what order. This is very confusing for opponents to judge what's going to happen next, on top of the fact that the animations are so slight behind pixel spam to begin with. Ele has a natural advantage of bypassing telegraphs here.
2. Normal classes can run through all their weapon skill CDs on both swaps in about 4 or 5 seconds and then they've got nothing. "Blow all CDs on swap 1, swap to swap 2, blow all CDs in about 3 seconds, now you're waiting 6s before you even have weapon skills to use". So normal classes have to really pick & choose when to use those CDs or they make themselves extremely vulnerable during a long CD phase. Ele can literally spam its CDs off CD constantly, and due to 4 weapon swaps and 20 skills to use, on top of overcharges and all that, and never actually go on a CD phase. They always have something to use and it is in their actual benefit to keep casting/spamming w/e it is they have to throw at you on w/e attunement they are currently on. You've got to understand that Eles are spamming twice as many weapon skills as any other class. If their individual weapon skills were as strong as other class individual skills, an Ele would floor you and it wouldn't even need to use utility skills to do it. Imagine if a Spellbreaker came at you and he had 4 weapon swaps and could continuously spam weapon skills with no care or regard for CDs and in fact, it was advantageous for him to blow through CDs as quickly as possible so he could stack those APMs.
3. Due to the never ending flow of weapon skill attacks coming off Ele and its ability to change up how it cycles through 4 weapon swaps to create difficult to telegraph routines that also have little to no animation tells, the Ele's weapon skills have to be weaker than a class with only 2 weapon swaps or it would be way too strong. All the Ele's skills are meant to be combo skills so 2 button presses are worth 1 press on a normal class. This is just what the class is and what it has to be. But even so, due to this, it still benefits what we were talking about, concerning the idea behind "It is harder to avoid 20 attacks in 10s than it is to avoid 10 attacks in 10s".

Look, I can 1v1 a mediocre or worse Spellbreaker and kill it without ever taking damage. But I have to take damage while 1v1ing what would be considered even a bad Ele. Consider what's going on there & why, and how veteran Ele players can wield that kind of forced pressure. This is why Ele is the most annoying class when its numbers are tweaked too high, because the nature of its design "never ending AoE weapon attacks" this FORCES the opponent to have to take damage and there really isn't counterplay around the fact that you will take damage vs. an Ele. Against other classes that are single strike oriented with only 2 swaps, even if they are currently OP, it is possible to bait them and counterplay just right where you can simply avoid their attacks and win while taking no damage. You can't do that with Ele. When you engage an Ele you will take damage. This goes back into what we were saying to begin with.

One could say that it is easier to look at a Warrior's weapon skills and start using them, and I would agree. But one could also say that even though it is more difficult to learn Ele attack streams initially, the Ele attack streams are actually easier to wield in higher tiers because they FORCE damage once you've learned those streams. At higher tiers of play, Ele isn't a risk vs. reward class. It's like the opposite of that. Ele's design is a stat check. Ele play is more about knowing what you can bully and what you can't. At higher levels of play it doesn't have high risk vs reward options like a Thief does. It just has a set of skill cycle routines that it must use vs. certain classes in a certain way. When those numbers are tweaked too high, Ele becomes impossible to deal with. When those numbers are too low, then the Ele very quickly falls out of viability. And there isn't really a lot of room to play around that due to its design.

Considering this, is it really harder to play at higher levels? I don't think it is. Ele is harder to learn initially, but once you've developed the motor memory of what cycles to use vs. w/e class is approaching you, there isn't much more to it than that. Either its numbers are good for the meta or they aren't. The class Ele doesn't provide a wide array of mechanical inginuity to play with in the same way as a Thief does, as example.

I agree with you, but the problem is that core ele utilities skills are mostly useless or bad, while all the other classes have tons of durability.
The best deal for me would be to I) fix the bugs, II) rework core ele, iii) balance the perma invuln of the other classes.

I don't ask for a buff of the dps in the ele, but fighting against ppl that attacks you while they are invuln, they have perma stab and access to 1000 boons, is hard.

When I play other classes I'm always "mmm do I choose this trait or the other?", while I play ele is "mmm what trait is not completely useless s**t?"

[Eventine.8024]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

only use the good skills, and I can spam every skill in every attunement and go to the next attunement and spam every skill and keep doing this, and there is never a downtime where I have to spam autos to fill in time or the only skills I have to use are utilities.

Have you ever played ele? Each skill is usefull ONLY is a specific situation, you cannot spam them all or they would have ZERO effect! In which weapon you are even talking about.

[Dreamonology.8362]

yeah ele needs 0 skill in wvw, its all cele cheese garbage someone that mashes their head on the keyboard can play

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, DivineDreaming.7206 said:

yeah ele needs 0 skill in wvw, its all cele cheese garbage someone that mashes their head on the keyboard can play

Totally agreed.

Cele, and especially the boonduration it brings to the table, makes playing Cata a piece of cake.

Cele, and especially the healingpower its brings, paired with a totally overbuffed "elemental bastion" trait makes Conditempest a literal Mainbattletank.  (i even made a thread about elemental bastion being shamelessly overtuned in WvW)

 

In PvP.... no so much.

Edited July 31 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

12 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Woven Stride, for once

As far as i know, its not bugged.  Its working as intended

Maybe you are misinterpreting what it should do?   Cuz the wording is big time doodoo.

 

The recharge affects both the regeneration and condition removal on swiftness.

The recharge for the inflicted with inhibiting conditions portion is also shared with this.

the trait is working only once every 5 seconds.  The cooldown is not limited to the inflicted with inhibiting conditions grants swiftness, part.

 

Which brings us back to the fact that alot of ele traits are very bad.

Edited July 31 by Sahne.6950

[Arheundel.6451]

11 hours ago, Eventine.8024 said:

I agree with you, but the problem is that core ele utilities skills are mostly useless or bad, while all the other classes have tons of durability.
The best deal for me would be to I) fix the bugs, II) rework core ele, iii) balance the perma invuln of the other classes.

I don't ask for a buff of the dps in the ele, but fighting against ppl that attacks you while they are invuln, they have perma stab and access to 1000 boons, is hard.

When I play other classes I'm always "mmm do I choose this trait or the other?", while I play ele is "mmm what trait is not completely useless s**t?"

You don't have this issue with cata...just use 3-3-1 everywhere because rest of the traitline is pure unaldutered garbage