Elementalist balance PvP & WvW

[Florin.3618]

Hello devs,

 

In my opinion, a profession with a high APM and a steep learning curve should be among the top classes in PvP and WvW.

Take Weaver, for example—one of the most complex classes in GW2. Yet, it doesn’t appear as a good pick class on any top or meta-tier list created by anyone knowledgeable about the game.
I’d also like to mention that while the Elementalist had the potential to embody the mage fantasy, it’s often used as a melee class for DPS. In my view, the staff should have been the primary damage-dealing weapon, with the scepter combined with focus/warhorn geared more towards support roles.

Could you consider dedicating some resources to giving the Elementalist at least one or two viable load-outs that can compete with meta professions like Revenant or Mesmer?

 

Regards,
Florin

[Codename T.2847]

Incoming people who whine about Ele already having it better than every other class 3, 2, 1...

[Jski.6180]

Weaver needs self quickness (it also needs self alacrity but you can get that now.)

[Gorani.7205]

5 hours ago, Florin.3618 said:

Could you consider dedicating some resources to ...

That ship has sailed with the latest expansion for at least a year. While Spear finally is another 1200 range weapon, I currently have not seen a shift away from the well known "range lock" difficulties Ele has for years.
1200 - 900: *
900 - 600: **
600 - 300: ****
300 - 0: ***
I believe it is debatable which range increment deserves two or three stars for most effective in offensive & defensive abilities, but I don't think that Spear has shifted range increments that far, that the increment beyond 900 has stepped up. Perhaps a few balance passes (e.g. for Spear and Pistol) will change that during JAW seasons, IDK ...

[The Ghost.3087]

1 hour ago, Gorani.7205 said:

That ship has sailed with the latest expansion for at least a year. While Spear finally is another 1200 range weapon, I currently have not seen a shift away from the well known "range lock" difficulties Ele has for years.
1200 - 900: *
900 - 600: **
600 - 300: ****
300 - 0: ***
I believe it is debatable which range increment deserves two or three stars for most effective in offensive & defensive abilities, but I don't think that Spear has shifted range increments that far, that the increment beyond 900 has stepped up. Perhaps a few balance passes (e.g. for Spear and Pistol) will change that during JAW seasons, IDK ...

Lets not rush into that conclusion, I am pretty sure the devs expected real feedback when everyone get to try and play with the spear. There is still a chance for the next balance patch within a few months from now most likely, to check on that. Spears still need balancing for many classes. I see one of the classes do 50k damage in raids and while I welcome that damage the devs should consider buffing the other specs to reach that amount or lower down that high output damage for Revenant. 

Edited August 23 by The Ghost.3087

[Exzen.2976]

The problem is, that this is the same feedback they were given last time. This isn't news to anyone...

[Mendax.9506]

I agree with you. In current PvP and PvE ele is quite weak. Just compare two similar PvP builds - power virtuoso and fresh air catalist. Both glass cannon ranged casters, but the amount of damage and survivability virtuoso has is much higher than fresh air, and the amount of effort needed is also much lower. Fresh Air needs to land combos, rapidly swap attunements, while trying to dodge and kite. Virtuoso on the other hand needs just to press F1 for 13k unblockable damage (usually from stealth). 

And the fact that ele has more attunements with other skills doesnt help. IMO it is balanced in a way that each ele's skill is like only 1/2 of power of other classes skills, and to achieve same results you need to press at least two skills. 

Spear doesn't change much as far as I can see. I've been playing with spear both in PvE and PvP pretty extensively and tried different builds. In PvE it is quite fun, because mobs dont dodge, but in PvP it is really bad. Etching Spells while powerful only do around 6-7k on a stationary enemy, and so the amount of effort to charge them while being focused is not worth it (remember virt's unblockable homing F1?). Other skills also have to be ground targeted, and the reward for landing them is disappointing. It's really a nightmare to try to land a meteor with a casting time and a delay on an enemy player with blinks, blocks, dodges, aegis, weakness, blind etc. Missed? Now whait for 20s cd

Another problem with spear and potential ranged builds is that traits don't really support this playstyle. Air is okay, Arcane is okay I guess, but elite specs all mostly favor melee. Tempest needs to stand in the middle of a fight to hit with overloads and shouts, weaver also has only a few usefull traits and picking weaver only complicates the skillbar with etchings. This leaves only the catalist with somewhat usefull traits and self buffs, but still nothing exceptional..So we are back to Scepter, or another class...
 

[Jackthetripper.9035]

Just because you play a more complicated class doesn't mean you should have an innate advantage once you gain some skills. It's not fair to the people who enjoy other classes. It's really that simple.

[The Ghost.3087]

1 hour ago, Jackthetripper.9035 said:

Just because you play a more complicated class doesn't mean you should have an innate advantage once you gain some skills. It's not fair to the people who enjoy other classes. It's really that simple.

Are you seriously claiming that? That is BS, sorry for the word. If you are putting ten times more the effort than other classes. Then yes, 100% yes you need to be rewarded for that and some pretty visuals won't do it. The damage output needs to be insane for the effort that you put going through this crazy piano class. While you play something like a Virtuoso who needs like what? 4-5 skills top to reach that high damage, Eles need to use 15+ skills + utility to come even close to that damage and that is simply UNREWARDING, UNFAIR and UNBALANCED for the work you put into reaching that damage which doesn't even reach top DPS. 

Let's stop putting eles at the bottom or bring all the other classes to that bottom level and see how you will scream then how unfair it is for you. Buff the Eles damage accordingly to the effort you put into playing that class. Rewarding the player with proper high damage output for the effort they go through should be the least expectation. Most of the players will agree with that, hell most of the streamers agree with that. 

Simply put, Eles is not worth playing if they will always be at the bottom even though you put so much effort into learning their skills. Their rotation leaves your arms and wrists sore to even put close to the damage which Virtuosso puts out with way fewer button smash. And let me not touch on survivability considering that Eles are mostly melee class, as well. Sorry but that is not the way you balance a class which is harder to play and has way more things to memorize to output the most damage. 

Edited August 24 by The Ghost.3087

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Jackthetripper.9035 said:

Just because you play a more complicated class doesn't mean you should have an innate advantage once you gain some skills. It's not fair to the people who enjoy other classes. It's really that simple.

It's like saying people working harder jobs should not get paid more than those doing run of the mill jobs...like wtf kind of reasoning

[Phoenix the One.4071]

2 hours ago, Jackthetripper.9035 said:

Just because you play a more complicated class doesn't mean you should have an innate advantage once you gain some skills. It's not fair to the people who enjoy other classes. It's really that simple.

100% support this!!

 

Got lot of friends that work harder than me and more hours.

While my job is easypeasy and I can flex in and out as it suits me, and cash in a lot more than them.

Is it fair? I think so... I just picked a better profession than them, and such it life. If they want such job they should just change profession.

[Jackthetripper.9035]

3 hours ago, The Ghost.3087 said:

Are you seriously claiming that? That is BS, sorry for the word. If you are putting ten times more the effort than other classes. Then yes, 100% yes you need to be rewarded for that and some pretty visuals won't do it. The damage output needs to be insane for the effort that you put going through this crazy piano class. While you play something like a Virtuoso who needs like what? 4-5 skills top to reach that high damage, Eles need to use 15+ skills + utility to come even close to that damage and that is simply UNREWARDING, UNFAIR and UNBALANCED for the work you put into reaching that damage which doesn't even reach top DPS. 

Let's stop putting eles at the bottom or bring all the other classes to that bottom level and see how you will scream then how unfair it is for you. Buff the Eles damage accordingly to the effort you put into playing that class. Rewarding the player with proper high damage output for the effort they go through should be the least expectation. Most of the players will agree with that, hell most of the streamers agree with that. 

Simply put, Eles is not worth playing if they will always be at the bottom even though you put so much effort into learning their skills. Their rotation leaves your arms and wrists sore to even put close to the damage which Virtuosso puts out with way fewer button smash. And let me not touch on survivability considering that Eles are mostly melee class, as well. Sorry but that is not the way you balance a class which is harder to play and has way more things to memorize to output the most damage. 

It seems that you want Anet to make you better than other players instead of making yourself better than other players. This is a multiplayer videogame so the only thing you're entitled to is a level playing field. I'm an Ele main.

[Riba.3271]

As I see it, people just aren't good enough to play ele. Ele is the best WvW spec. Of course it is sometimes held back by the fact that allies facetank too much damage or don't corrupt enough but ele is still the best provided your teammates aren't deadweight.

Ofc biggest buff they could do to ele is finally do the long awaited reduction to superspeed access or potency. Since people move from one place to another 50+% faster with permasuperspeed now, your AoE fields will do 33+% less damage.

Edited August 24 by Riba.3271

[Eventine.8024]

On 8/23/2024 at 4:55 PM, Jski.6180 said:

Weaver needs self quickness (it also needs self alacrity but you can get that now.)

Totally agree. Weaver also need a lot of other stuff (first of all, hammer and spear dual skills that are not completely useless, and second traits that are not bugged), but let's start simple.

[Eventine.8024]

On 8/24/2024 at 5:34 AM, Jackthetripper.9035 said:

Just because you play a more complicated class doesn't mean you should have an innate advantage once you gain some skills. It's not fair to the people who enjoy other classes. It's really that simple.

May agree. It also should not be utterly trash and way worse. At least should be roughly on the same level. Can we agree with that?

Do you wanna some example? 
No stealth, only 1 block/invuln, same evades of other classes (sometimes less), maybe a little bit of more healing (useful in open world PvE, almost useless in PvP/WvW as the numbers are very low), very low mobility, low stability (now a bit better), protection is now the same as everyone else, low life, low durability, etc. 

Are they the same?

People that are complaining about ele, HAVE THEY ACTUALLY SERIOUSLY TRIED IT? Cuz I main ele, but played tons of other classes. Actually, due to ele being kitten in the last years, prob I have only 10% PvP games on ele and even lower perc in WvW, meaning that I played A LOT other classes, and I know how EASY they get stuff.

[Eventine.8024]

On 8/24/2024 at 11:44 AM, Riba.3271 said:

As I see it, people just aren't good enough to play ele. Ele is the best WvW spec. Of course it is sometimes held back by the fact that allies facetank too much damage or don't corrupt enough but ele is still the best provided your teammates aren't deadweight.

Ofc biggest buff they could do to ele is finally do the long awaited reduction to superspeed access or potency. Since people move from one place to another 50+% faster with permasuperspeed now, your AoE fields will do 33+% less damage.

Are you talking about roaming, aren't you? Cuz ele is mostly completely absent from WvW scene, despite the fact that aura share is incredibly good and mostly unique to ele

[Riba.3271]

1 minute ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Are you talking about roaming, aren't you? Cuz ele is mostly completely absent from WvW scene, despite the fact that aura share is incredibly good and mostly unique to ele

Catalyst is still the highest DPS in the game if you consider the amount of offensive boons it shares with other party members. Add to this the amount of damage reduction it provides and multiples long range CC abilities. Of course they dumbened down the game so meta is dictated by bunch of players who only look at ArcDPS and don't have real understanding of the game. The average understanding of guild leaders is at "bow berserker, big damage, must be good". Even testing ele builds for raids is limited by the fact that average guild member can't learn to play the class in short time.

But the flawed meta perception isn't really players fault as the competitive scene was killed with objective auras, desert maps, linking system and shield gens, so all we have left are ultra casuals or ego whompers and most people who played to compete are already competing somewhere elsewhere.

[Eventine.8024]

11 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Catalyst is still the highest DPS in the game if you consider the amount of offensive boons it shares with other party members. Add to this the amount of damage reduction it provides and multiples long range CC abilities. Of course they dumbened down the game so meta is dictated by bunch of players who only look at ArcDPS and don't have real understanding of the game. The average understanding of guild leaders is at "bow berserker, big damage, must be good". Even testing ele builds for raids is limited by the fact that average guild member can't learn to play the class in short time.

But the flawed meta perception isn't really players fault as the competitive scene was killed with objective auras, desert maps, linking system and shield gens, so all we have left are ultra casuals or ego whompers and most people who played to compete are already competing somewhere elsewhere.

Cata is not the highest dps in WvW for sure. Also, if you spec it with boons it drops a lot of damage. Furthermore it's mostly close range. I think it was used in 10vs10 GvG, but apart from that no one wants it.

I mean... I would like to be the smartest person in the game and say "I'm right and cata is amazing and everyone else is wrong", but, if no one wants cata in their roster, there is probably a reason.

Some problem about cata? No long range (or no AoE, or no sustained damage, or no mobility, depending on the weapon, but that is a ele problem), really low survivability (lowest health and toughness of the game), low spike damage (the type of damage you need in WvW, and since people keep saying "OMG ELE NEEDS TO PRESS 10x THE BUTTONS AND NEED TO DO HALF OUR DAMAGE OR IT IS NOT FAIR TO OTHER CLASSES MUMBLE MUMBLE", ele would probably never have the spike damage capability that other class have. And in WvW you are not at the golem, but constantly moving, kiting, etc. thus you need spike damage), almost no utilities (core utility skills are terrible, as several core trait lines), a lot of effort to do less (WvW input lag? anyone?), several projectiles, no boon corruption, not really boon sustain for the party (if you are playing dps), etc.

We tried and tried and tried. The maximum thing they let me play in WvW is Celestial immob boon aurashare cata, which was doing 3k dps/s (if the fight was relatively close). But now chrono is better, scrapper is better, renegade is better, any guardian role is better. So no one wants ele

[Riba.3271]

25 minutes ago, Eventine.8024 said:

Cata is not the highest dps in WvW for sure. Also, if you spec it with boons it drops a lot of damage.

See, you guys don't land your abilities. Nor can you survive on a spec with long range evade, 2 sources of superspeed, a 1200 range blink. Also you fail by tunnelvisioning into speccing into concept because you're supposed to mix the good boon traits (bigger jade spheres) and the good dps traits (extra stats per stack), not choose one or another. It doesn't matter if you have 150% upkeep on quickness during bomb, when 100% is enough. If you don't take the 20% bonus stats (20% power+precision+fero totals to around +40% damage modifier) from catalyst traits, no wonder you do no damage.

Also you do not have understanding that Jade spheres are not blockable. What does that mean? Every tick strips aegis. That means that another ability can hit opponent. Also Protection field that applies protection every 1 second means that boon strips won't be efficient at removing the protection. Same applies to the quickness field. Since your and enemy group are both removing boons from each other, which group will have quickness and protection left? The one with catalysts.

You can try to run aurashare catalyst, celestial catalyst or thrash catalyst, but only way to be efficient at catalyst is running DPS. Maybe you take Boon duration from efficient sources of it like Pack Runes or Herald Relic, without sacrificing too much dps, but you never go cele as you absolutely have 0 need for that much tankiness or some inefficient dagger templest cosplay build.

Overall, just run the good build. Fire sigil for resource generation, pack runes for boon duration, Marauder+Bersk+Dragon for DPS (calculating that you are below 100% crit cap at 10 EE stacks+BL bloodlust+ Objective Aura), Jade sphere size to strip aegis and land boons simultanously, 20% bonus stats for DPS, staff for having actual DPS and CC, Lightning flash and Invigorating air for survivability.

Edited August 27 by Riba.3271

[Eventine.8024]

46 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

See, you guys don't land your abilities.

Dunno who you are, dunno which guild you are on, so I will try not to be elitist, but the way you speak it does not fill me with hope.

Currently, our guild (tier II guild, with lots of 40-50yo players with children, bad internet connection from their phone and playing on their laptop) wins most outnumbered fights (talking about 20vs45, sometimes even 18vs 60+) versus organized guilds and zergs on EU on prime time. Thus I'm not speaking from random pub zerger.

Apart from some little stuff that you wrongly mixed up, the things you said are very solid on paper, and I completely agree with them. The problem is the "on paper". WvW is messy, is fast, has a lot of issues, enemyes double-pushing u, etc. Those stuff are not working as well. Trust me, we tried several crazy stuff, like the "blind squad", since, mathematically, blind is 5x better than aegis etc. Until you test on the ground, you cannot be sure if stuff works as on paper. And ele doesn't currently work very well in WvW.

I was one of the firsts to promote scrapper b4 nerfs, vindi heal b4 nerfs, and dudu heal. My guild never trusted me, and the next week we were all playing that. So, we will change ideas and builds and meta, but if they works

Edited August 27 by Eventine.8024

[Flowki.7194]

Ele in sPVP has been a push over since scepter condi/power co nerfs. That patch destroyed almost all workable builds. The only builds I have seen that are remotely competitive, were the weaver meme 1 shot builds (short lived becuase of all the block-immune spam) and the current tempest condi build, which still doesn't get much play becuase SPB destroys it on sides, and its a bad group fighter, as are all ele dagger main hand builds. Im not so sure about ele spear, but the times I faught it, the specs did some decent damage but folded under pressure, like a thief/wb+X jump, it just folds.

 

They need to buff scepter condi, and buff pistol power co. No decent range options means ele is forced into duelist roles, and if it isn't meta duelist, which it isn't.. it can't even do that role.

Edited August 27 by Flowki.7194

[RaveOnYou.2819]

On 8/28/2024 at 1:09 AM, Eventine.8024 said:

Dunno who you are, dunno which guild you are on, so I will try not to be elitist, but the way you speak it does not fill me with hope.

Currently, our guild (tier II guild, with lots of 40-50yo players with children, bad internet connection from their phone and playing on their laptop) wins most outnumbered fights (talking about 20vs45, sometimes even 18vs 60+) versus organized guilds and zergs on EU on prime time. Thus I'm not speaking from random pub zerger.

Apart from some little stuff that you wrongly mixed up, the things you said are very solid on paper, and I completely agree with them. The problem is the "on paper". WvW is messy, is fast, has a lot of issues, enemyes double-pushing u, etc. Those stuff are not working as well. Trust me, we tried several crazy stuff, like the "blind squad", since, mathematically, blind is 5x better than aegis etc. Until you test on the ground, you cannot be sure if stuff works as on paper. And ele doesn't currently work very well in WvW.

I was one of the firsts to promote scrapper b4 nerfs, vindi heal b4 nerfs, and dudu heal. My guild never trusted me, and the next week we were all playing that. So, we will change ideas and builds and meta, but if they works

he is old ring of fire pug commander who flips empty towers and keeps at off-peak hours. so dont take seriously.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

On 8/24/2024 at 11:44 AM, Riba.3271 said:

As I see it, people just aren't good enough to play ele. Ele is the best WvW spec. Of course it is sometimes held back by the fact that allies facetank too much damage or don't corrupt enough but ele is still the best provided your teammates aren't deadweight.

Ofc biggest buff they could do to ele is finally do the long awaited reduction to superspeed access or potency. Since people move from one place to another 50+% faster with permasuperspeed now, your AoE fields will do 33+% less damage.

ele is dead in wvw.

Squads kick out eles. They want fb, druid, scrapper, necros, warriors, holos, a chrono or two and revs.

Roaming? Roam as a ele in a world infected with thieves and willbenders.

Ele is dead and ANET murdered it.

[Shadow.2097]

Staff was a meta weapon in WvW for an entire decade. Power damage in general is lacking in WvW at the moment and staff has fallen out of favour. Staff was nerfed heavily, and Ele definitely lacks other viable DPS weapons for WvW. 

On the other hand, Tempest is without doubt one of the strongest supports in the game in smaller scales, but unfortunately doesn't scale up well to the larger 40/50+ player fights. It's just out of favour in the current meta, where everybody is stacking big numbers. There's too much stability spam which nullifies shocking aura, and everyone's playing in melee balls so mag aura isn't good either. One balance patch is all it would take for Tempest to possibly return to the meta. It's a top tier support spec just suffers with some of the issues present in high numbers fights. 

Also Catalyst is one of the best roaming specs in the game right now. 

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

sure, I love fighting catas as tempest. They are that good... not.