Thief's Cluster Bomb... Do I need to "Get Gud"?

[Saiyan.1704]

19k Cluster Bomb within a span of 2 seconds.

I understand how incredibly glassy this particular thief build is.
I also have to be self-aware that you can't just run this build and expect to just do well..
The thief in particular is a Plat1/Plat2 Player....

That said. SERIOUSLY!?

As a WB that happened to be running 22k health and ported in to +1 my fellow comrade, who's pants is oddly bulky in the groin area for reasons I'm not quite sure why... I got instantly deleted in that 2 seconds. Taking Whirling Wrath to the grill was on me because, well, I instantly ported there. Sure.

But not knowing a thief was Pew Pew'ing with nearly 5k cluster bombs every .5 seconds... this is undoubtedly "normal" and I should just... "get gud", right?

Edited August 25 by Saiyan.1704

[Frequency.6407]

It's a bit like getting killed by a freshweaver for the first time or getting scrapped or getting willbendered.

Looks scary, but once you get to know what you're up against, isn't really an issue anymore.

[Last Crab.6054]

32 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

19k Cluster Bomb within a span of 2 seconds.

I understand how incredibly glassy this particular thief build is.
I also have to be self-aware that you can't just run this build and expect to just do well..
The thief in particular is a Plat1/Plat2 Player....

That said. SERIOUSLY!?

As a WB that happened to be running 22k health and ported in to +1 my fellow comrade, who's pants is oddly bulky in the groin area for reasons I'm not quite sure why... I got instantly deleted in that 2 seconds. Taking Whirling Wrath to the grill was on me because, well, I instantly ported there. Sure.

But not knowing a thief was Pew Pew'ing with nearly 5k cluster bombs every .5 seconds... this is undoubtedly "normal" and I should just... "get gud", right?

yes, gitgud

just swap to one of your gooder alts

also, you are unworthy to use the name Saiyan with this much whining.

Personally, I suggest Donkey

Edited August 25 by Last Crab.6054

[Saiyan.1704]

13 minutes ago, Frequency.6407 said:

It's a bit like getting killed by a freshweaver for the first time or getting scrapped or getting willbendered.

Looks scary, but once you get to know what you're up against, isn't really an issue anymore.

I figured this was the case because I don't go up against cluster !@#$ thieves all too often lol!! I was impressed with the insane damage. It's why i'm not calling for nerfs, I was curious what it was about.

[whooot.5784]

Let the thief alone please I am sick of seeing it nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed again, and again again ... We already got our spear deleted from this game, could you at least LET US something playable plz ? Just please ?

[Shagie.7612]

you forgot the golden rule buddy

thief is terrible at everything and this immune to any criticism and actually thief players are just more skilled than everyone and that's why they win, they'd be rank 1 on any other class

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

19k Cluster Bomb within a span of 2 seconds.

 

important link 1

Important link 2

@Flowki.7194You asked for more of these things to see, here we go

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 8/24/2024 at 10:34 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

I got instantly deleted in that 2 seconds. 

But not knowing a thief was Pew Pew'ing with nearly 5k cluster bombs every .5 seconds... this is undoubtedly "normal" and I should just... "get gud", right?

I feel like porting into a clusterbomb coming from a thief that is confident enough in their position to cast it twice, and dying over the span of two seconds while playing a class that will do just as much damage over that span of time on anyone that doesn't react for two seconds is fair enough, don't you think?

Your aegis only works on single hits and your blind only works on your target.  You'll have to position better instead of yoloing into downstate. Not to mention you would have lived both of those cluster bombs if an enemy willbender wasnt ALSO punishing you. You expected to live as a glass cannon doing unhinged movement, but that doesnt pan out sometimes. The thief was likely more brittle than you are and mid assassin signet.

Also which is it? Instantly or 2 seconds? Those are very different.  If 2 seconds is instant I have a savage instinct shaped bridge to sell you. 

Edited August 26 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[jdawgie.1835]

19K Cluster bombs is something thats crept up before. The combo is Stealth off steal, Cluster (Bow 2 x2) leave and return. Followed by HS or Sword 3. Its cheese AF. I dont think its a skill issue. 

@Saiyan.1704

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I fail to see how cluster bomb is any worse than Fresh Air glass ele spam which also can delete you in milliseconds. 

Unless we're also talking about disengage potential, then thief can of course port/stealth as to not die where the ele if they miss...they die.  

[jdawgie.1835]

7 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I fail to see how cluster bomb is any worse than Fresh Air glass ele spam which also can delete you in milliseconds. 

7 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

thief can of course port/stealth as to not die where the ele if they miss...they die. 

You answered your own question here perfectly. Thats a huge difference. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

31 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

You answered your own question here perfectly. Thats a huge difference. 

Mechanically sure, but that doesn't mean eating cluster bomb should be less punished. 

Scepter ele targets a single person with almost instant damage. Cluster bomb has a cast time, a travel time, and telegraphs the area it will hit. You don't -have- to be there. 

We're gonna just overlook you have to eat a cluster bomb, see the thief set up another, then also eat that one (while failing to pressure the thief) to come close to dying? Ridiculous. Let people play glass, especially slower glass weapons. We crawl back to supporting bunker meta constantly when its not our spec high rolling.

Edited August 26 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[jdawgie.1835]

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Mechanically sure, but that doesn't mean eating cluster bomb should be less punished. 

Before we have a discourse in good faith please know - I agree with you. Both classes have a problem here. Also want to be specific I am not asking for nerfs. I am asking for what I always ask for - for Anet to Balance there game with effort and tune the skills not just shift numbers and cast times around. Kinda like how they just copy and pasted an already existing weapon made an expac out of it - and then didnt adjust the animations. I digress

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Scepter ele targets a single person with almost instant damage.

Right so I agree - which is why I always defended Chrono "1 shot" for example because chronomancers are setting that "1 shot" up for 5 skills before they are ready to execute. If your that asleep at the wheel you deserve to die, or if they ganked you while you were engaging another enemy you got, got. Thats part of the fun you know? (see my long post history about engis)

Theres no build up for Ele and no counter play for theif - which was i suspect the orignal point of @Saiyan.1704 post.  Also you can trait for blindness on steal while stealthed which prevents literally any risk of the attack. Now for example right - instead of that I would rather you be reveal on damage from your target the game isnt set up this way however that is my balance suggestion. So for example if the thief is aiming to cluster bomb a guardian and the guardian puts off damage they get revealed. Allowing counter play. 

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We're gonna just overlook you have to eat a cluster bomb,

No one said this

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

see the thief set up another,

The theif is in stealth - you and I saw nothing example them exit stealth and your dead from a 19K hit. 

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Ridiculous.

Before we go here - lets make sure we actually completely disagree first. 

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Let people play glass

I have literally always advocated for this. I agree.

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We crawl back to supporting bunker meta

Id rather people (including myself) get rolled for mistakes then have a bunker meta. Better delete or be deleted then we all die of old age on the point. 

Edited August 26 by jdawgie.1835

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

46 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

The theif is in stealth - you and I saw nothing example them exit stealth and your dead from a 19K hit. 

There were at least two cluster bombs in this situation, the thief is revealed on the first, and the second is telegraphed on the ground. If you're in a situation where a thief opens on you the damage and anim of the the first cluster bomb should compel you to evade,mitigate, or be acutely aware of what indicators are at your feet in prep for those two, whether or not you were blinded.

Quote

Before we go here - lets make sure we actually completely disagree first. 

Woah there, let me backpedal a bit.

I did not intend this to be interpreted as a dig by you or saiyan, for that matter, it was shadowboxing the concept. My whole point is that you know what cluster bomb looks like, and if you eat it the information that a thief is nearby with shortbow is conveyed to you instantly. Theres much less room to be bristly about that than scepter ele. Both ele startup noises/daze and a cluster bomb that chunks you are vibe checks you can respond to.

Sometimes the sarcasm bleeds, apologies.

Quote

Before we have a discourse in good faith please know - I agree with you. Both classes have a problem here.

I actually like scepter ele, willbender and thief as is. All of them make me happy to fight.

Quote

No one said this

Clusterbomb x2 is wild if it lands, I stand by that. Even if the thief opens with a steal or from stealth. 

Quote

Theres no build up for Ele and no counter play for theif - which was i suspect the orignal point of @Saiyan.1704 post.

Is this correct, @Saiyan.1704?

Quote

Now for example right - instead of that I would rather you be reveal on damage from your target the game isnt set up this way however that is my balance suggestion. So for example if the thief is aiming to cluster bomb a guardian and the guardian puts off damage they get revealed. Allowing counter play. 

Imagine you're  trying to leap a smoke field and your opponent casts while you're leaping.  Allowing that would invalidate most thieves because they'd never get to reposition or stealth attack vs anyone that presses buttons. You're mid leap on a smoke field but a guard pressed sword 2? You land on the symbol, your stealth, stealth attack, and positional mitigation are gone. 

Quote

Thieves can blind their cluster bomb opener

Sure. But a thief wouldn't  blind open cluster bombs in positions like the one saiyan was in.  He was mid fray and got opened on from outside.  If the thief was on him they'd both be down.

And in the position they would find such agreeable, you'd be able to mitigate the second one for free.

Edited August 26 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Saiyan.1704]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Is this correct, @Saiyan.1704?

*flips mullet*
This is absolutely correct.

[vcxxx.3159]

On 8/24/2024 at 10:05 PM, Last Crab.6054 said:

yes, gitgud

just swap to one of your gooder alts

also, you are unworthy to use the name Saiyan with this much whining.

Personally, I suggest Donkey

COOKED

[jdawgie.1835]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

There were at least two cluster bombs in this situation, the thief is revealed on the first, and the second is telegraphed on the ground. If you're in a situation where a thief opens

So if you double tap 2 upon using cluster bomb it actually is not telegraphed it becomes and instant exlposion. When your next to sum1 (like when u port to someone off steal) you press 2 in rapid succession 4 times get instant hits. Dunno if you knew that but I assumed you did because I know you are a vet, and I know you know what your doing. Literally nothing is telegraphed from what I understand - if there information for me to learn here please share it (said with genuine intentions my brother) 

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Woah there, let me backpedal a bit.

I did not intend this to be interpreted as a dig by you or saiyan, for that matter, it was shadowboxing the concept. My whole point is that you know what cluster bomb looks like, and if you eat it the information that a thief is nearby with shortbow is conveyed to you instantly. Theres much less room to be bristly about that than scepter ele. Both ele startup noises/daze and a cluster bomb that chunks you are vibe checks you can respond to.

Sometimes the sarcasm bleeds, apologies.

Much love back to you brother - no apologies needed. I didnt think you meant it bad but I wanted air on the side of extending some good vibes to keep the good vibes. Appreciate you. 

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Imagine you're  trying to leap a smoke field and your opponent casts while you're leaping.  Allowing that would invalidate most thieves because they'd never get to reposition or stealth attack vs anyone that presses buttons. You're mid leap on a smoke field but a guard pressed sword 2? You land on the symbol, your stealth, stealth attack, and positional mitigation are gone. 

So I totally agree - honestly I don't know what the solution is. You are right here tho 100 percent. 

Edited August 27 by jdawgie.1835

[Last Crab.6054]

10 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

So if you double tap 2 upon using cluster bomb it actually is not telegraphed it becomes and instant exlposion. When your next to sum1 (like when u port to someone off steal) you press 2 in rapid succession 4 times get instant hits. Dunno if you knew that but I assumed you did because I know you are a vet, and I know you know what your doing. Literally nothing is telegraphed from what I understand - if there information for me to learn here please share it (said with genuine intentions my brother) 

Much love back to you brother - no apologies needed. I didnt think you meant it bad but I wanted air on the side of extending some good vibes to keep the good vibes. Appreciate you. 

So I totally agree - honestly I don't know what the solution is. You are right here tho 100 percent. 

Yeah, but the cast time for clusterbomb is not instant even if you double tap, and you sure as the mists are not getting off 4 presses before a non potato moves away if its 1 v 1.

AFK or tunnelvision is a user error, not a clusterbomb problem.

Also, literally, even from stealth CLUSTERBOMB HAS THE BIG BUTT RED RING on the ground

 

[Codename T.2847]

I donno, thief shortbow is slightly overtuned if you ask me xD definitely not something the likes of Saiyan over here would fall for twice, but still, pretty surprising that a weapon having this much utility manages to do great dmg aswell. Then again, in WvW you don't even need to weapon switch off D/P ever, and that whole issue is another annoying can of worms

Edited August 27 by Codename T.2847

[Nilkemia.8507]

Looks around.

Long sigh.

I see my choice to leave this mode for dead remains wise after so long.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Cluster bomb can hit pretty hard but how tf this guy pushed it those numbers? I've never seen it

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:45 AM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Cluster bomb can hit pretty hard but how tf this guy pushed it those numbers? I've never seen it

He probably got hit by two unexploded ones while the thief was buffed, and they were both glass. 

I surmise thief was going to bomb the person already on the point, but saiyan ported in and caught that one, then thief said "oop double" and did it again to clean up his hp.

Conjecture though. Its possible to hit high in the meta, but everyone is so wreathed in immunes and damage-fouling gimmicks that you rarely see damage not buffered by prot or the like. 

Guardians also take high damage when downstate, which I think is also included in the death record? Correct me if wrong. 

Edited August 28 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Endo.1652]

4 hits of possibly unsplit clusterbombs for 19k in total. An f3 wouldve blocked all of that. I bet some of that was on your downstate though.

[Endo.1652]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:03 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Guardians also take high damage when downstate, which I think is also included in the death record? Correct me if wrong. 

Youre not wrong.

[Flowki.7194]

On 8/25/2024 at 7:01 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

important link 1

Important link 2

@Flowki.7194You asked for more of these things to see, here we go

Ahh reaction times.. the thing that tricks the average power jump player into thinking they are better than they are, until they play a condi spec with no jump and counter cleanse. Or in SPBs case, to thinking pressing FC on a multi cast or high broadcast ability is the same as just stowing an FC. But lets not bring science into GW2 😜 

Edited August 29 by Flowki.7194