Balance seems pretty good right now

[Flowki.7194]

23 hours ago, Newholiday.8103 said:

I'd argue that wb and mesmer both have too much invuln/block/mobility for how much damage they can deal, which makes them frustrating.  But it also isn't that far beyond what other classes can do.  Kinda wondering what the thoughts are from mesmer/guardian mains.

It is far beyound what most other classes/specs can do though 😜

 

Play power herald for 10 games to get an idea of what WB brings to the table.

Then, play the old power cata meta spec. It had immunes, but couldn't attack when doing so, and needed combos to keep sustain going. That completely changed how egagements went.

You can also try Holo, and GS-LB untamed, the older virsions.

 

Any of the above specs feel like you braught a pea shooter to an artillery fight, if you are anything less than solid P1 at them. Even then, most plats are playing the latest spear fotms, SPB, or reaper. They are all specs that are crept to high heaven. I am still yet to come across a WB who can acually dodge very well, but there they are, topping damage on both teams, almost every game (Same as DH when it was broken). It isn't all about damage sure, but topping damage with bad dodge? Why not. SPBs are the same on sides, Virts are the same. DE/Axe thief are also the same im terms of mechanics that don't require dodge reactions to the enemy.. just dodges to spam your stealth rotation, with a side bonus of making you uninteractive to fight against. That isn't actual dodge skill.

 

Im no saying I am a god at the game, but when I miss a dodge there is a consequence. Shouldnt there be consequences?

Edited Monday at 04:07 PM by Flowki.7194

[arazoth.7290]

On 10/13/2024 at 5:47 PM, Newholiday.8103 said:

At least there doesn't seem to be any massive outliers anymore that I can see, coming from an ele main perspective.

A few classes could use slight shaves (mesmer, willbender) or slight buffs (engi, ranger).

That said, I'd rather see the next balance patch focus a bit more on buffing dead weapons/elite specs for various classes.  Ele pistol and spear (the newest additions to ele's arsenal) have basically been dead on arrival since their release.  In essentially every game mode too.  Would be nice to see these weapons get some buffs.

how much money did they pay you?

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 10/13/2024 at 9:47 AM, Newholiday.8103 said:

At least there doesn't seem to be any massive outliers anymore that I can see

*laughs in defense spellbreaker

[schein der knopf.8932]

How does ranger need slight buffs when it has the most overpowered build right now? Infinite evasion anyone? LOL

[WingSwipe.3084]

24 minutes ago, schein der knopf.8932 said:

How does ranger need slight buffs when it has the most overpowered build right now? Infinite evasion anyone? LOL

Shhhh, people dont know about the SLB condi evade builds yet.

[Newholiday.8103]

4 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

It is far beyound what most other classes/specs can do though 😜

 

Play power herald for 10 games to get an idea of what WB brings to the table.

Then, play the old power cata meta spec. It had immunes, but couldn't attack when doing so, and needed combos to keep sustain going. That completely changed how egagements went.

You can also try Holo, and GS-LB untamed, the older virsions.

 

Any of the above specs feel like you braught a pea shooter to an artillery fight, if you are anything less than solid P1 at them. Even then, most plats are playing the latest spear fotms, SPB, or reaper. They are all specs that are crept to high heaven. I am still yet to come across a WB who can acually dodge very well, but there they are, topping damage on both teams, almost every game (Same as DH when it was broken). It isn't all about damage sure, but topping damage with bad dodge? Why not. SPBs are the same on sides, Virts are the same. DE/Axe thief are also the same im terms of mechanics that don't require dodge reactions to the enemy.. just dodges to spam your stealth rotation, with a side bonus of making you uninteractive to fight against. That isn't actual dodge skill.

 

Im no saying I am a god at the game, but when I miss a dodge there is a consequence. Shouldnt there be consequences?

While I haven't played power herald, I have played against it, and what it can do is very similar to WB.  It can port in and deal a burst, follow up with block/evade/cc, and then use the healing facet to heal and become immune to damage, then repeat the process. 

Holo can still do the old run away while throwing grenades at me.

Untamed can land a ton of burst and cc all at once, and stealth if they start losing.

Warrior can still cc chain me to death.

Ele can become essentially immune to projectiles depending on its build, and if they take the earth spec, can repeatedly become immune to crit damage on top of being able to dish out a ton of protection either from auras or from the earth sphere.

Thief can still stealth and teleport all over the place while dealing tons of damage.

Necro can fear me what feels like 10 times, all while dealing tons of condi damage.

And mes has good burst while being able to become immune to everything for decent periods of time.

So yeah, everything has the potential for a degenerate build, and they all seem pretty close to one another in terms of how hard they are to deal with.  I might be a little more lenient towards mes simply because the build I play spams AoE attacks, so they can never get very many clones out.  But maybe they need a more decent shave than I realize.

That said, lots of people seem within the thread seem to be arguing about what the true degenerate class/build is, which I think just proves my point that the balance is pretty good.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Shhhh, people dont know about the SLB condi evade builds yet.

Please, do duel OP on one of those and upload the results.  Considering the builds OP likes to play, it should be a pretty even matchup--I don't think it will be, however.  

[jdawgie.1835]

On 10/13/2024 at 9:21 AM, Captain Crapface.7528 said:

bro, what?

you meant to post it in in PvE, section right?

You dont know who your replying too. Trust he's aware of where he is. 

On 10/13/2024 at 2:32 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Well, Newholiday is a Plat Ele (NA) that hits top100 on the regular so his Ele main perspective is going to be much different than the usual forum QQ posts about XYZ class.

 

Yes.

On 10/13/2024 at 2:32 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

A lot of WB's swapped to different weapons, but we still hit hard and can still delete people who don't pay attention. 

 

I agree with you - and I never liked spear on WB - Its purpose is extremely linear compared to GS/SS or even Mace/Sword off hand. We tested together as soon as it launched. I said right away - "Spear is only good right now because the numbers are inflated due to new expac. Once its balanced out its functionality will pale in comparison to GS."

On 10/13/2024 at 2:32 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

As for the current balance, I don't see a single class that's ungodly OP

Yeah - and WB isn't in MAT at all that I have seen.  Lotta people like to play classes but never progress past a G2 Rating with it and ask for balance from there. 

Edited yesterday at 12:10 AM by jdawgie.1835

[Flowki.7194]

58 minutes ago, Newholiday.8103 said:

While I haven't played power herald, I have played against it, and what it can do is very similar to WB.  It can port in and deal a burst, follow up with block/evade/cc, and then use the healing facet to heal and become immune to damage, then repeat the process. 

Holo can still do the old run away while throwing grenades at me.

Untamed can land a ton of burst and cc all at once, and stealth if they start losing.

Warrior can still cc chain me to death.

Ele can become essentially immune to projectiles depending on its build, and if they take the earth spec, can repeatedly become immune to crit damage on top of being able to dish out a ton of protection either from auras or from the earth sphere.

Thief can still stealth and teleport all over the place while dealing tons of damage.

Necro can fear me what feels like 10 times, all while dealing tons of condi damage.

And mes has good burst while being able to become immune to everything for decent periods of time.

So yeah, everything has the potential for a degenerate build, and they all seem pretty close to one another in terms of how hard they are to deal with.  I might be a little more lenient towards mes simply because the build I play spams AoE attacks, so they can never get very many clones out.  But maybe they need a more decent shave than I realize.

That said, lots of people seem within the thread seem to be arguing about what the true degenerate class/build is, which I think just proves my point that the balance is pretty good.

 

The first time I played WB, I Tp'd into a group of 3 people and downed one of them. I just wanted to see how easy it was because thats what I seen a lot of WBs doing.. and 0 heralds doing, and that was before spear. I mean, by all means jump on herald and tp into a 3v1, with 0 stab/protective boons, and see how it goes. In-fact, a good test on herald is to TP to any single condi spec, any one you like, and then you will see what WB has going for it with stab + perma resolotion, which allows it to eat condi while spewing out dmg. Never mind RF and its easier kite out.

Edited Monday at 09:32 PM by Flowki.7194

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

On 10/13/2024 at 8:47 AM, Newholiday.8103 said:

At least there doesn't seem to be any massive outliers anymore that I can see, coming from an ele main perspective.

A few classes could use slight shaves (mesmer, willbender) or slight buffs (engi, ranger).

That said, I'd rather see the next balance patch focus a bit more on buffing dead weapons/elite specs for various classes.  Ele pistol and spear (the newest additions to ele's arsenal) have basically been dead on arrival since their release.  In essentially every game mode too.  Would be nice to see these weapons get some buffs.

The issue isn't balance anymore, it's the fact this game mode no longer has the player base to make matches balanced. If you get into plat it becomes noticeable. 

1) You're a plat, the other team has a plat. Your goal is to farm/troll the enemy golds on the other team as hard as possible. This can be done by playing a high dps spec and farming the enemy team into a pulp. This can also be done by playing a good dueling class and farming those 1-2 noobs on the enemy team who want to ego duel the better player/build. 

2) You're plat, the other team has a plat. You're the better plat and you farm the boosted plat. 

3) You're plat, the other team has a plat duo. Good luck and enjoy the loss.

4) You're plat, and surprisingly most of the lobby appears to be plat, too. This is a rare game, cherish it. You won't ever see it happening outside of ATs. You also won't see it happen if you Q again after because, inevitably, one of the plat people/duos is going to log off after they lose the game to avoid matching against the other plat person / duo. 

5) You're the only plat in the lobby. Your singular goal is to farm and troll the enemy team as hard as possible and pray to rng god that your team is not composed of noobs. 

Bonus: You're the only person currently rated plat in your lobby. Your singular goal is to farm and troll the enemy team as hard as possible and pray to rng god that your team is not composed of noobs. This is, unfortunately, complicated by the fact your team is mostly higher silver-low gold while the enemy team is mostly mid-high gold to compensate for you being plat. Be prepared to win 4 and lose 20+ if your power firebrand and staff thief decide they want to play a grey screen simulator. 

Edited Monday at 10:39 PM by Bach From The Brink.2715

[Newholiday.8103]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The first time I played WB, I Tp'd into a group of 3 people and downed one of them. I just wanted to see how easy it was because thats what I seen a lot of WBs doing.. and 0 heralds doing, and that was before spear. I mean, by all means jump on herald and tp into a 3v1, with 0 stab/protective boons, and see how it goes. In-fact, a good test on herald is to TP to any single condi spec, any one you like, and then you will see what WB has going for it with stab + perma resolotion, which allows it to eat condi while spewing out dmg. Never mind RF and its easier kite out.

I mean, it happens. But from what I've seen, the WB also dies pretty often when they try that.  A few other classes can also do that (like power herald), but yeah, it's mostly a WB thing right now. Other classes have their own gimmicks.

51 minutes ago, Bach From The Brink.2715 said:

The issue isn't balance anymore, it's the fact this game mode no longer has the player base to make matches balanced. If you get into plat it becomes noticeable. 

1) You're a plat, the other team has a plat. Your goal is to farm/troll the enemy golds on the other team as hard as possible. This can be done by playing a high dps spec and farming the enemy team into a pulp. This can also be done by playing a good dueling class and farming those 1-2 noobs on the enemy team who want to ego duel the better player/build. 

2) You're plat, the other team has a plat. You're the better plat and you farm the boosted plat. 

3) You're plat, the other team has a plat duo. Good luck and enjoy the loss.

4) You're plat, and surprisingly most of the lobby appears to be plat, too. This is a rare game, cherish it. You won't ever see it happening outside of ATs. You also won't see it happen if you Q again after because, inevitably, one of the plat people/duos is going to log off after they lose the game to avoid matching against the other plat person / duo. 

5) You're the only plat in the lobby. Your singular goal is to farm and troll the enemy team as hard as possible and pray to rng god that your team is not composed of noobs. 

Bonus: You're the only person currently rated plat in your lobby. Your singular goal is to farm and troll the enemy team as hard as possible and pray to rng god that your team is not composed of noobs. This is, unfortunately, complicated by the fact your team is mostly higher silver-low gold while the enemy team is mostly mid-high gold to compensate for you being plat. Be prepared to win 4 and lose 20+ if your power firebrand and staff thief decide they want to play a grey screen simulator. 

This is less a class balance issue and more a population issue, which is its own thing.

[Tofu.1865]

What silver take is this

[jdawgie.1835]

42 minutes ago, Tofu.1865 said:

What silver take is this

Bro this is the most silver comment I have ever seen. Tell me you've never been in a plat lobby with out telling me. Bro you're cooked for this statement lmfao. 

[Flowki.7194]

You guys can cope all you want.. but the simple fact is, the current fotm power roam specs have never been so low risk, and then reaper/SPB.. the low effort groupfight/duelist specs.

 

I mean, just cope more? Balance is not fine, nothing high risk/effort is being played.

Edited yesterday at 12:42 AM by Flowki.7194

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

28 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You guys can cope all you want.. but the simple fact is, the current fotm power roam specs have never been so low risk, and then reaper/SPB.. the low effort groupfight/duelist specs.

 

I mean, just cope more? Balance is not fine, nothing high risk/effort is being played.

Where, in PvP? Lol bro you can literally play whatever you want in ranked. No one is forcing you to play meta specs. If you're not going for a top 25 title, then play what you think is fun and stop complaining 

[Pretty Sirius.2374]

If balance for you just means everything is equally powerful and we have some build diversity,  then maybe (also not rly true but you would have a lil point here). But good balance is way more than that and GW2 is not the slightest good balanced. Like not at all.

Edited yesterday at 10:07 AM by Pretty Sirius.2374

[shion.2084]

On 10/13/2024 at 11:47 AM, Newholiday.8103 said:

At least there doesn't seem to be any massive outliers anymore that I can see, coming from an ele main perspective.

A few classes could use slight shaves (mesmer, willbender) or slight buffs (engi, ranger).

That said, I'd rather see the next balance patch focus a bit more on buffing dead weapons/elite specs for various classes.  Ele pistol and spear (the newest additions to ele's arsenal) have basically been dead on arrival since their release.  In essentially every game mode too.  Would be nice to see these weapons get some buffs.

Engi feels bad man 🙂

[Melumi.6432]

Simply put, there are four things that would heavily attract people to the mode:

1. Excellent rewards and a competitive gold per hour (no pun intended). Unranked/Ranked and win rewards are too low compared to PvE instance farming and meta chain squads.
2. More PvP Rush events. Generate interest more frequently with the remaining GW2 player base.
3. New PvP content, including maps and game modes. (Where is the Jade/Cantha map? An Astral/Soto-themed map? JW bees, bears, nature? Why can you produce massive PvE maps but not at least one small competitive map per expansion?)
4. Balanced gameplay. If you don't want to commit to a larger scope of balance, please at least hotfix specs that are clearly overperforming on a timely basis, so the mode doesn't feel neglected.

Edited 20 hours ago by Melumi.6432

[Endo.1652]

16 hours ago, Bach From The Brink.2715 said:

The issue isn't balance anymore, it's the fact this game mode no longer has the player base to make matches balanced. If you get into plat it becomes noticeable. 

1) You're a plat, the other team has a plat. Your goal is to farm/troll the enemy golds on the other team as hard as possible. This can be done by playing a high dps spec and farming the enemy team into a pulp. This can also be done by playing a good dueling class and farming those 1-2 noobs on the enemy team who want to ego duel the better player/build. 

2) You're plat, the other team has a plat. You're the better plat and you farm the boosted plat. 

3) You're plat, the other team has a plat duo. Good luck and enjoy the loss.

4) You're plat, and surprisingly most of the lobby appears to be plat, too. This is a rare game, cherish it. You won't ever see it happening outside of ATs. You also won't see it happen if you Q again after because, inevitably, one of the plat people/duos is going to log off after they lose the game to avoid matching against the other plat person / duo. 

5) You're the only plat in the lobby. Your singular goal is to farm and troll the enemy team as hard as possible and pray to rng god that your team is not composed of noobs. 

Bonus: You're the only person currently rated plat in your lobby. Your singular goal is to farm and troll the enemy team as hard as possible and pray to rng god that your team is not composed of noobs. This is, unfortunately, complicated by the fact your team is mostly higher silver-low gold while the enemy team is mostly mid-high gold to compensate for you being plat. Be prepared to win 4 and lose 20+ if your power firebrand and staff thief decide they want to play a grey screen simulator. 

Most real and true comment of the entire pvp forum

Edited 20 hours ago by Endo.1652

[Flowki.7194]

14 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Where, in PvP? Lol bro you can literally play whatever you want in ranked. No one is forcing you to play meta specs. If you're not going for a top 25 title, then play what you think is fun and stop complaining 

Exactly, people play what they want, which 90% of the time is the lowest effort/risk specs. That was fine at one point, until ANet kitten the game and made those specs more rewarding than higher effort/risk specs.

 

You don't agree? Lets take a look:

 

DD thief was probably the riskiest thief build I played as/against. In recent times DE hit meta, and is the lowest risk spec I have ever played as/against. High range to stay out of cleave/CC range of 99% of the game, and stealth for dodging for the few specs that could get close. Then, axe thief.. not as low risk as DE, but certainly the second lowest risk spec I have played as/against.. along with its damage being laughably easy to do. So, low risk and low efforr are the current theif fotms.

 

DH - Use to be so and so, then they gave it aeg on trap drops etc. It became a spec that just runs upto point, drops traps, gets aeg.. then ironically spews out unblockables. Any kitten could play it.. and DHs on both teams topped damage for weeks, maybe months.

 

WB - I never liked its mechanics, but it was gate kept by other things in the past. Then it got more popular, and is clearly a lower risk virsion of Herald. WB was in use all through vindi meta, and I seen this spec 20x more than I seen a power vindi/herald.. that says it all. But then, ontop of WBs low risk jump/escape mechanics.. it got spear for massive aoe dmg. It is now also enjoying a meta were all of the higher risk/effort specs that could spank it in the past.. have been nerfed out of use. I'm not saying WB is as easy as axe thief, certainly not.. but compared to the punishments and skill/positioning needed on previous roam specs, WB is a joke.. its a complete crutch that just got a massive dps boost, to the point it isn't even a crutch anymore. If you don't have spear, buying WB spear is a littearl pay to win play at this point.

 

Ele - Cata when in meta had a few immunes, at the time that was very strong given the other viable specs. However, the cata could not attack while immune, which meant putting out burst was more difficult. After nerfing power ele into the ground, Anet decide to buff arcane shield+trait line. Now power eles can hava arcane shield+stab <spew damage> use elite for another arcane shield+stab <spew damage again> and still have backup stab. Power ele used in this way, to do burst.. is as low risk as it has ever been. It is a more punishing virsion of WB to play.. but still far less risky than older power ele.

 

Reaper - Remember the time when "primary the reaper" was the golden tactic? Reaper was never a hard spec to play, but it was actually risky due to it being primaried so much. That is not the case anymore.. they have a lot of CC/range/rest/panic buttons. Reaper is far less risky than it use to be, and just as easy to play. In-fact, with that much CC I'd say its easier to play than before.. becuase doing DPS when something is CC'd, is not the same as doing DPS when something is active.

 

Mesmer - Chrono did eye watering damage, but it melted when people got ontop of it. The build was high risk/high reward outside of those games where people just let you free cast. Now, spear has made every single mesmer spec less risk, and doing insane damage. Virt most of all, is in the top 5 lowest risk specs I have ever played against/as. And virts, like thieves, still like to think they are high risk. Go back to DD/old chrono meta, get a reality check.

 

Revenent - Despite all the hate, power vindi was a difficult spec to play well, very risky unless you were p1+. Power herald, is the most risky spec I have ever played, and I always love to see a good power herald, it is the only spec in this game that does not get carried, at all. However.. power vindi is nerfed out of use, and herald is way to punishing to play, when there are options like wb/virt? More over, ventari just got nerfed into the ground, which means all group support builds are nerfed into the ground, again, not easy specs to play. Now, its just spear condi heralds for the most part, which are a far cry from the effort/punishments of the power varients.. and easier to play than the support varients.

 

Ranger - LB-GS untamed is up there as one of the most difficult/risky specs Ive tried. Then, SB came along, with brainded track damage application, 14k maul crits etc. It got worse, then maces came, which were designed to be somewhat like reaper mechanics, giving free face tank to weave between CC spam. Mace untamed was harder to play than reaper sure.. but again, a far cry from playing the older power untamed.

 

SPB - lol.

 

All of these progressions have the same thing in common, less reliance on dodge, which means less need to actually understand the game. Watch the average WB/DH/Virt, and see if they actually dodge a real ability. They rarely do... just nuke > run with aeg-invuln cover. Virts tend to play just like the average SPB, use a dodge inbetween a defensive to just shut the door in any interaction (DE-Axe thieves do the same). They do not look at you, look at what you are casting and dodge.. they are basically so bloated in defence, they just weave a dodge in like a PVE rotation.. and it works.

Edited 18 hours ago by Flowki.7194

[Vinny.7260]

We love a good ol' bait post now and then.

[arazoth.7290]

31 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

We love a good ol' bait post now and then.

Spoiler

(inserting memes update, best patch update)

Edited 18 hours ago by arazoth.7290

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 actually dd thief depends on if its Condi or Power ^^ Condi one was basicly Spam the 3 Button xD. 

But yea the high risk high rewards Builds from core days are straight up gone cause of *caught* e-specs *caught* reasons ^^^

[Newholiday.8103]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Exactly, people play what they want, which 90% of the time is the lowest effort/risk specs. That was fine at one point, until ANet kitten the game and made those specs more rewarding than higher effort/risk specs.

 

You don't agree? Lets take a look:

 

DD thief was probably the riskiest thief build I played as/against. In recent times DE hit meta, and is the lowest risk spec I have ever played as/against. High range to stay out of cleave/CC range of 99% of the game, and stealth for dodging for the few specs that could get close. Then, axe thief.. not as low risk as DE, but certainly the second lowest risk spec I have played as/against.. along with its damage being laughably easy to do. So, low risk and low efforr are the current theif fotms.

 

DH - Use to be so and so, then they gave it aeg on trap drops etc. It became a spec that just runs upto point, drops traps, gets aeg.. then ironically spews out unblockables. Any kitten could play it.. and DHs on both teams topped damage for weeks, maybe months.

 

WB - I never liked its mechanics, but it was gate kept by other things in the past. Then it got more popular, and is clearly a lower risk virsion of Herald. WB was in use all through vindi meta, and I seen this spec 20x more than I seen a power vindi/herald.. that says it all. But then, ontop of WBs low risk jump/escape mechanics.. it got spear for massive aoe dmg. It is now also enjoying a meta were all of the higher risk/effort specs that could spank it in the past.. have been nerfed out of use. I'm not saying WB is as easy as axe thief, certainly not.. but compared to the punishments and skill/positioning needed on previous roam specs, WB is a joke.. its a complete crutch that just got a massive dps boost, to the point it isn't even a crutch anymore. If you don't have spear, buying WB spear is a littearl pay to win play at this point.

 

Ele - Cata when in meta had a few immunes, at the time that was very strong given the other viable specs. However, the cata could not attack while immune, which meant putting out burst was more difficult. After nerfing power ele into the ground, Anet decide to buff arcane shield+trait line. Now power eles can hava arcane shield+stab <spew damage> use elite for another arcane shield+stab <spew damage again> and still have backup stab. Power ele used in this way, to do burst.. is as low risk as it has ever been. It is a more punishing virsion of WB to play.. but still far less risky than older power ele.

 

Reaper - Remember the time when "primary the reaper" was the golden tactic? Reaper was never a hard spec to play, but it was actually risky due to it being primaried so much. That is not the case anymore.. they have a lot of CC/range/rest/panic buttons. Reaper is far less risky than it use to be, and just as easy to play. In-fact, with that much CC I'd say its easier to play than before.. becuase doing DPS when something is CC'd, is not the same as doing DPS when something is active.

 

Mesmer - Chrono did eye watering damage, but it melted when people got ontop of it. The build was high risk/high reward outside of those games where people just let you free cast. Now, spear has made every single mesmer spec less risk, and doing insane damage. Virt most of all, is in the top 5 lowest risk specs I have ever played against/as. And virts, like thieves, still like to think they are high risk. Go back to DD/old chrono meta, get a reality check.

 

Revenent - Despite all the hate, power vindi was a difficult spec to play well, very risky unless you were p1+. Power herald, is the most risky spec I have ever played, and I always love to see a good power herald, it is the only spec in this game that does not get carried, at all. However.. power vindi is nerfed out of use, and herald is way to punishing to play, when there are options like wb/virt? More over, ventari just got nerfed into the ground, which means all group support builds are nerfed into the ground, again, not easy specs to play. Now, its just spear condi heralds for the most part, which are a far cry from the effort/punishments of the power varients.. and easier to play than the support varients.

 

Ranger - LB-GS untamed is up there as one of the most difficult/risky specs Ive tried. Then, SB came along, with brainded track damage application, 14k maul crits etc. It got worse, then maces came, which were designed to be somewhat like reaper mechanics, giving free face tank to weave between CC spam. Mace untamed was harder to play than reaper sure.. but again, a far cry from playing the older power untamed.

 

SPB - lol.

 

All of these progressions have the same thing in common, less reliance on dodge, which means less need to actually understand the game. Watch the average WB/DH/Virt, and see if they actually dodge a real ability. They rarely do... just nuke > run with aeg-invuln cover. Virts tend to play just like the average SPB, use a dodge inbetween a defensive to just shut the door in any interaction (DE-Axe thieves do the same). They do not look at you, look at what you are casting and dodge.. they are basically so bloated in defence, they just weave a dodge in like a PVE rotation.. and it works.

After reading your post I don't think we're really in disagreement about the state of balance.  You basically provided an example of a 'meta' (or at least well performing) build for nearly every class. Which is what I think good balance looks like.  Making every build viable would be ideal, but seems like a pipe dream.

Your idea of balance seems to be that harder builds should be 'meta' and easy builds should be subpar.  I think all that would accomplish is making the barrier to entry into sPVP even bigger than it already is, and make the population issues even worse.

Edited 16 hours ago by Newholiday.8103

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 actually dd thief depends on if its Condi or Power ^^ Condi one was basicly Spam the 3 Button xD. 

But yea the high risk high rewards Builds from core days are straight up gone cause of *caught* e-specs *caught* reasons ^^^

True, and I thought that condi build was degen when I played it a while back. I just never figured thief could get more degen than that, ANet didn't dissapoint. I lasted a massive 10 games on DE, and maybe 5 on axe thief, you just spam the same few buttons, and kill specs I know kitten well are working far harder, and more risky. Its complete fking degen.

 

1 hour ago, Newholiday.8103 said:

After reading your post I don't think we're really in disagreement about the state of balance.  You basically provided an example of a 'meta' (or at least well performing) build for nearly every class. Which is what I think good balance looks like.  Making every build viable would be ideal, but seems like a pipe dream.

Your idea of balance seems to be that harder builds should be 'meta' and easy builds should be subpar.  I think all that would accomplish is making the barrier to entry into sPVP even bigger than it already is, and make the population issues even worse.

 

Yes it seems unlikely all classes can have a meta build at the same time, but "great" is already currently achieved. My issue is the effort and risk of playing those "great" or even meta specs.

 

I think what you need to do is play something like power herald for 100 games or so (ss-staff). In combination with the mechanics, energy manedgement, and lack of stab/defensive boon spam, it is a very difficult and punishing spec. Please just try it, even if only for 10 games. I can write you an essay to explain it all, but its easier if you just go play it and see what actual risk/reward looks like. More than that, see what bad dodge looks like (trust me I know).

 

I will always be of the opinion that higher risk AND/OR higher mechanicaly difficult specs should perform better than low risk/effort specs. The reason this is important, is that I see amazing heralds in games, get slapped around for the slightest of mistakes by players I know are barely g2. I then see AVERAGE willbenders be 5x as wreckelss/aggressive.. and get away with it. What would be the incentive to play difficult/risky specs? There isnt any.. and that is what the spec representations show, 90% of players on low effort and/or low risk builds.

 

The real reason that matters is becuase some guy who is average at the game can jump on the likes of SPB, and after maybe 40 hours? He forces a 2v1. You jump on any high risk or high effort spec, and it will take 100x that time investement, and it kitten well should to force a 2v1. Further than that, even with that time investment, there are many low risk/effort specs that are simply not worth engaging when you are on a high risk/effort build. The problem now, is the low risk/effort builds are crept, so they are everywhere, filling every game. Now its like this.. play a high risk/effort build and just accept you are at a disadvantedge to crept low risk/effort builds that are 90% representation, or join them.

 

My final game last night, the enemy comp was this:

Axe thief

Bladesworn

Druid

Virt

Willbender

 

Tell me what spec in that list is high risk/high effort? Ive played herald, and ive played all those specs, there is ZERO motivation to play that game on a high risk/effort build.. and if youd ever played such a spec, and those specs outlined, youd understand why. Needless to say, nobody plays high risk/effort specs now, that is not a healthy balanced game. Its a casually crept game. Now sure.. in that context it is balanced, there are ample options of effective low risk/effort specs spewing block-immune-stealth-stab covered burst at each other, with not a concious dodge in sight.

Edited 14 hours ago by Flowki.7194