Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I'm not going to sugar coat it, your opinion is worthless because you still haven't provided any good reason other than "get good" and I dont socialize, I pug so I want to keep my OP puggers. 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Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyDaisy.4107 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 We've already had the server pride discussion, it happened 2 years ago when the bottom 12 NA server names disappeared. Care to rehash how that turned out? Tldr: we were told again and again server pride is dead!Linkings were made to try and even population,, everyone had 2 years to spread out and try to make it fairer for everyone. Instead, most of that time was spent insulting guest servers, insulting hosts that dared make it to T1, insulting hosts that avoided tier 1, bandwagonning to cheaper guest servers and complaining endlessly that some servers were locked, which coincedently and by shear irony, the locked servers seemed to always hold all the complainers guildmates!Players can't be trusted to police themselves, most will always choose the selfish path. This system will minimize selfishness, but still allow you to play how and with who you choose and may even give others that have had skill this whole time, but never made it to 1st because their opponents were just better at ppting. The only reason to not be at least willing to try a new system is because you KNOW how broken the current system is and you prefer it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.You are lucky to be on BG, a winning server. If BG disappeared what would you be? Oh yeah a pug the same pug you have always been is what it boils down to. I wonder if you would sing the same tune if you were on Eradon Terrace, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diku.2546 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.ANet will be left herding Red, Green, and Blue Cats with this proposed solution.Players will do everything in their power to abuse this proposed system to overstack odds in their favor.World Linking failed to balance things & destroyed the "Guest" server communities.Now they're planning to do it to the Host server communities as they try to balance population....Well you can't be balanced it...because of simple human nature.It's a given & predictable pattern of behavior for WvW players.There's a solution. Why not let players over-stack their server, but use it in a constructive way.The White Elephant in the room that prevents an over-stacked server from being put to good use...is the Fixed Tier mechanic.This core mechanic limits all players from being able to target & attack the # 1 WvW Ranked Server together.Why not remove the Fixed Tiers that's been a bane to WvW since the game launched?We should give each server 1 map then tailor the exisitng Server-Guesting mechanic for WvW & let players pick which server they want to fight.Just impose a weekly limit on How many & Which servers that players can go fight on...so it doesn't get out of hand...and let players deal with Long waiting queues if they only pick the most popular servers to fight on.Let All Lower Ranked & lower "populated" servers be able to attack the # 1 WvW Ranked Server.Also, we should exponentially Reward players for attacking any Higher Ranked servers in comparison to their Home Server's rank & then "Punish" players for attacking any Lower Ranked server.While we're at it...why not show players...in a random order...the top 3 servers attacking their map?Your truly,DikuEDS, an HP Company 'Cat Herders' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers. 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Caliburn.1845 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 There was an informal poll taken on these forums shortly after Anet posted this alliance idea. Roughly 75% of players supported the idea.I'd like to see an official Anet poll on the topic to get a real sense of what players want. But I suspect that an official poll would have upwards of 80% in favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Chaba.5410 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.BG also has a high concentration of PvE players and a high concentration of WvW players. That's what happens when a server is the largest server: it has higher everything.yes skilled pvp players, as in the best the game has to offer, this is the only reason BG does well in WvW. This in turn demoralizes other servers which results in low turn out of players for other servers, which results in graphs that show BG as being much more active on all fronts. BG is encouraged other servers are demoralized.The mental gymnastics you display are amazing. A large server has more of every type of player just as a city has more of every type of profession than a village. That's the reason BG does well in WvW, because it is the largest server with the best coverage. Other servers have low turn out compared to BG because they are smaller. Anet locked BG in hopes that over time there would be enough bleed of players transferring off to even up teams more, but that didn't happen because it is organized guilds that are more likely to transfer enough people to other servers, not random pugs.Continue being disingenuous about why you will quit WvW when alliances come out since it makes you feel better. Every reader here understands that teams will be more even numbered which removes a main reason why teams get demoralized and that's the real reason you'll be quitting. You are afraid of losing a fair match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Caliburn.1845 said:There was an informal poll taken on these forums shortly after Anet posted this alliance idea. Roughly 75% of players supported the idea.I'd like to see an official Anet poll on the topic to get a real sense of what players want. But I suspect that an official poll would have upwards of 80% in favor.I don't fear the change not going through, it will. I'm just trying to get better insight on claims of server pride and identity by people who are essentially drifters in their own server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diku.2546 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @"Caliburn.1845" said:There was an informal poll taken on these forums shortly after Anet posted this alliance idea. Roughly 75% of players supported the idea.I'd like to see an official Anet poll on the topic to get a real sense of what players want. But I suspect that an official poll would have upwards of 80% in favor.Consider this...If you Polled any Drug Addict if they wanted a dose of their favorite "Fix"...I'd say upwards of 80% in favor of supporting that idea...even though it's not good for them in the long-term.World Linking experiment...I'd say upwards of 70% in favor of supporting that idea & it completely caused the collapse & destruction of many "Guest Server" communities to balance population.Remaining players not happy & getting desperate for a solution to do anything.Alliance manipulation experiment is now the current attempt to balance population....and it will do the same thing that World Linking did, but this time it will cause the collapse & destruction of "Host Server" communities to balance population.I predict a repeat of the World Linking experiment with this Alliance thing....Remaining players not happy & beyond desperation...and still looking for a solution.The flawed base mechanic of Fixed Tiers needs to be removed, or it will just continue to encourage the 800 pound gorilla in the room scenario that is proven to be pointless & depressing...if you're not a member of the winning "Alliance" this time.Instead of trying to balance population...why not use the over-stacking behavior in a positive way that benefits everybody?Instead...Re-structure WvW into a Pure King of the Hill match-up model that uses the # 1 Ranked WvW & over-stacked server as the final destination for all WvW players to fight against.Blowing up & re-creating servers every "season" just destroys established communities & the WvW ecosystem that is under constant siege by these attempts to control the fundamental over-stacking behavior of players.Do we really want to force ANet to become a Professional Cat Herder that's responsible for balancing our WvW population every "season"?WvW will never be able to evolve into a Healthy Competitive eSport if we go down this path.We'll never be able to get the kind of sponsors and critical mass of emotionally vested players & fans similar to the "SuperBowl" franchise.There's just too much match-up manipulation going on behind the scenes.My answer is NO. I Do Not want ANet to be a Professional Cat Herder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say.what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Chaba.5410 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Chaba.5410 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.BG also has a high concentration of PvE players and a high concentration of WvW players. That's what happens when a server is the largest server: it has higher everything.yes skilled pvp players, as in the best the game has to offer, this is the only reason BG does well in WvW. This in turn demoralizes other servers which results in low turn out of players for other servers, which results in graphs that show BG as being much more active on all fronts. BG is encouraged other servers are demoralized.The mental gymnastics you display are amazing. A large server has more of every type of player just as a city has more of every type of profession than a village. That's the reason BG does well in WvW, because it is the largest server with the best coverage. Other servers have low turn out compared to BG because they are smaller. Anet locked BG in hopes that over time there would be enough bleed of players transferring off to even up teams more, but that didn't happen because it is organized guilds that are more likely to transfer enough people to other servers, not random pugs.Continue being disingenuous about why you will quit WvW when alliances come out since it makes you feel better. Every reader here understands that teams will be more even numbered which removes a main reason why teams get demoralized and that's the real reason you'll be quitting. You are afraid of losing a fair match.no I am not affraid of losing a fair fight, in fact I like fair fight. Wvw will essentially become Eotm, and I also don't care about losing in Eotm when this happens so clearly what your saying isnt true and im not being disingenuous. This will destroy a huge reason for playing, as eotm is a game mode that nobody enjoys. Eotm would still be deserted even if they added pips to it, because wvwers enjoy the pride associated with being a part of a server and the identity that they draw from it, otherwise we might as well all go do Eotm, which nobody clearly wants to do. You guys are directly butting heads with the idea of wow's version of Horde vs Alliance. IN gw2 wvw = server vs server. If you destroy this its like saying there is no more horde vs alliance because we want fair fights and balancing reasons. Can you imagine the backlash that would ensue if blizzard announced this decision. Would you still claim that they were upset simply because they didnt want fair fights? or that they should just join some random guild and that was enough comradere and identity for them, or even go so far as to call them all trolls? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say.what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say.what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier.yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say.what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier.yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno.The core never left, guilds have come and gone but the core never left. And yes BG has been #2 and #3 for a good few months when it was desperately looking for OCX and SEA coverage that JQ had more of. Who do you think brought you that coverage? The guilds and the politics that come with them.Pugs out number guild members that's a fact but it's the guilds that provide a focal point for pugs to rally. BG is talented in that they have pugs that can make adhoc groups and know what they are doing, but it became that way through guilds cultivating that culture. We provide the forums, we provide the team speak for pugs to join and follow commanders, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno.It doesn't budge because it still remains having the largest population/most play hours. You ARE being disingenuous because you keep deflecting from this fact. We can't have an honest discussion regarding the design/health of WvW game mode overall due to your refusal to acknowledge this simple fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior.5347 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Chaba.5410 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno.It doesn't budge because it still remains having the largest population/most play hours. You ARE being disingenuous because you keep deflecting from this fact. We can't have an honest discussion regarding the design/health of WvW game mode overall due to your refusal to acknowledge this simple fact.It also barely budged because when it becomes open it gets flooded by bandwagoners who join the cycle of the core guilds training them and possibly making new guilds out of them to compete anew. This guy thinks pugs are integral to success and made BG T1 when they can easily be replaced. Its very delusional and disingenuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Warrior.5347 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@morrolan.9608 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@starlinvf.1358 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form. The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage. You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments. As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say.what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs. No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier.yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno.The core never left, guilds have come and gone but the core never left. And yes BG has been #2 and #3 for a good few months when it was desperately looking for OCX and SEA coverage that JQ had more of. Who do you think brought you that coverage? The guilds and the politics that come with them.Pugs out number guild members that's a fact but it's the guilds that provide a focal point for pugs to rally. BG is talented in that they have pugs that can make adhoc groups and know what they are doing, but it became that way through guilds cultivating that culture. We provide the forums, we provide the team speak for pugs to join and follow commanders, end of story.You're never going to convince me, its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw. This is what created this entire server, is pvpers and pvp guilds that come into wvw and are able to execute these strategies. This is evident when our own commanders and guilds join their servers and use those expertly conceived strategies against us. Their pugs are not able to execute.Regardless what does this have to do with this change, this change gives 0 concessions to anyone not in a guild or alliance, I guess we can all just get scattered to the winds and if you liked your server and the idea of the server, oh well the game modes not for you after 6 years of playing it. Real nice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw.Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Chaba.5410 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw.Who?I'm one of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Caliburn.1845 said:There was an informal poll taken on these forums shortly after Anet posted this alliance idea. Roughly 75% of players supported the idea.I'd like to see an official Anet poll on the topic to get a real sense of what players want. But I suspect that an official poll would have upwards of 80% in favor.So I guess well just lose another 25% of the current player base and thats fine lol. Good change, great decision, because its a huge thumbs down from me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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