World Restructuring

[Warrior.5347]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw.

Who?

It> @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?

The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.

There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.

I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,

People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.

But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.

This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form.

The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage.

You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.

Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.

I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments.

As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.

I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.

No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.

No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.

Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.

I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.

Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.

Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.

TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.

No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.

Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.

I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.

The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.

You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.

Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.

Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.

No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.

It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say.

what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs.

No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier.

yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno.

The core never left, guilds have come and gone but the core never left. And yes BG has been #2 and #3 for a good few months when it was desperately looking for OCX and SEA coverage that JQ had more of. Who do you think brought you that coverage? The guilds and the politics that come with them.

Pugs out number guild members that's a fact but it's the guilds that provide a focal point for pugs to rally. BG is talented in that they have pugs that can make adhoc groups and know what they are doing, but it became that way through guilds cultivating that culture. We provide the forums, we provide the team speak for pugs to join and follow commanders, end of story.

You're never going to convince me, its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw. This is what created this entire server, is pvpers and pvp guilds that come into wvw and are able to execute these strategies. This is evident when our own commanders and guilds join their servers and use those expertly conceived strategies against us. Their pugs are not able to execute.

Regardless what does this have to do with this change, this change gives 0 concessions to anyone not in a guild or alliance, I guess we can all just get scattered to the winds and if you liked your server and the idea of the server, oh well the game modes not for you after 6 years of playing it. Real nice.

It's quite obvious I'm not going to convince you of anything a long long time ago.

It's the fight and pvp guilds that built the server obviously pvpers are going to pvp it's the whole point of WvW and pvp.

Other server pugs don't have the same mentality and cultivation that BG has so it's harder and more time consuming to train and cultivate them, TC tried really hard to brand themselves and so did Maguuma, guilds have tried and failed which makes BG unique. The fact that BG is unique kind of makes it impossible to have fair and balanced matches right? So you proved our point, we need a new system.

But my original point is if BG didn't have dedicated pvp/wvw guilds that attract other pvpers and wvwers pug or or not, it would be bottom tier. You as an individual is replaceable as a pug for BG.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw.

Who?

It> @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@"LetoII.3782" said:What's in a name?

The server is a community of people.Alliances will be the same, with more imput from the community itself as to who composes that community.

There will still be a BG... The whole ocx community won't fill half an alliance, there will be room for a big sea group too.

I think Lupin is NA, knows NA doesn't matter much, there is always plenty to go around. So the new BG isn't likely to have a spot for his like. :(

I am na and I have a guild to be part of an alliance, but as I said I still don't like the changes, you guys can nitpick and investigate as to why I don't like this all you like, it's as simple as the points I made above,

People who are for this change don't care about pugs or anything they might want at all. This will destroy server identity completely which is like telling someone from wow, there is no horde or alliance anymore, it's gamebreaking.

But by their nature, pugs don't collectively form an identity as "pugs". Thats why everyone esle sees them as an amorphis blob of bodies with no sense of purpose. They attach themselves to other identities, or coalesce into a select group that forms its own identity.... thus are no longer pugs, even when mixed in with pugs. That group doesn't even need to be in a guild for this for this to work.

This happens all the time in less guild heavy servers, as synergy seperates itself from the chaos, and adhoc groups form.

The only people who won't benefit from this are people who refuse to group, or can't funtion in a group setting. A pug player who is half way competent has no problem operating in a zerg.... aka the penultimate of swarm cooperation. But a swarm needs intelligence- either a driver, or pockets of semi-autonimous teams.Bad players will still be bad after this....just as it was before. But unlike now, this change has the potential to address a lack of fights that snow ball into one server getting steamrolled, because they can't maintain ground. Being on 3 different servers over the years, I've seen 2 rise and fall based solely on their guilds offering wvw coverage.

You can also consider this replacing server tiers in its entirety, and being replaced with guild/alliance rankings. If anything, pugs actively benefit from more organized groups to hold ground and can adhoc with as desired.

Alliances will.form the backbone of a matchup, and those are, have always been, and always will be what a servers identity is based on. A bunch of crappy guilds makes a.crappy server. A bunch of guilds that cheese the map makes it.a cheesing server. A lack of organized groups makes it a chaos server..... unless you want to call that a pug server. But if a.bunch of unguilded pugs get thier act together, they deserve the pug server title, lends to it a positive reputation.

I think big aversion to this is that you don't see guilds as valuable unless they carry you. A faction being this monolithic thing you navigate at your own personal accord. A greater good to attach yourself to, that itself is too big to recognize your failings, but lavishes in your accomplishments.

As a mostly freeagent, I choose to adhoc where I wish. This works because I don't blame the nebulous "faction" for its performance, though I may still refer to it as a whole to shorthand a prevalent trait it displays. I recognize the elements that cause the whole to react.... a chain of causality drawn down as granular as possible. Guilds often behave as a result of its politics ... and that can be driven by one or many in its ranks. A server is no different. Just as a server has guilds that interact, a guild has cliches that interact. From largest alliance to individual person, that all plays a role in how this works.

I disagree, its good pugs that carry guilds, not the other way around. 2 Top guilds from BG moved to other servers. They now lose against BG, because BG pugs are better. I should know, I'm one of them, and I get tons of kills all night long and rarely die, and play in full zerk (yes I am that skilled). BG has a high concentration of spvp players as most spvp guilds are on BG as well. I should know I'm a 2x spvp legend, playing wvw as a pug.

No its because despite the loss of those guilds BG still has more players, thats all.

No I disagree, saw 4 Matchups tonight, again it was endless 2v1s against bg, other zergs combined had at least 2x the size of our zerg, and yet we still won on 4 separate occasions. Why can't they just admit that bg is stacked in the sense that all of the good players went there and not the, oh they simply have more players excuse.

Ok so if all the good players went to BG who's left to challange them by making the game more fair and balanced? I bet you wearn't even around when BG purposefully convinced WvW guilds to leave BG and join another server to close the disparity gap or guilds left on their own to find more of a challenge. You complain about pugs not having a voice, you do. But the people who actually lay the groundwork and manage WvW are the guilds, you seem to think pugging > guilds, false. BG is lucky in that it's pugs are more WvW minded and experienced than other servers but it's the guilds who cultivated them.

I've been on bg since launch. I get that's it's unbalanced but I don't think destroying servers is the answer, and no I don't have a solution, but I definitely don't like what Anet is proposing, as I feel like it will ruin a lot of motivation to play, and cast aside the concept of wvw in favor for some sort of a guilds are everything, gvg type of pvp. In addition I really dislike eotm, specifically because it feels like a hollow and empty experience. I don't derive any pride by being blue or red team in eotm and for me it's a lackluster experience. This change will essentially turn wvw into that, especially if you don't have a wvw guild.

Well, since you puged I'm sure you aren't aware of the internal dramas of Blackgate or maybe you were and paid it no mind as long as BG still fielded guilds and zergs. But it took a lot of work, headache, and drama to hold BG together especially through the rough patch where JQ was dominating for a while. So please don't deminish BG guilds' efforts in making sure you have a decent zerg to join.

Pugs by nature have no identity, as mentioned to you before, it will now essentially be pick up groups. Your fear is possibly be lumped in a bad pug population, I get it. But let's not bring pride and morals into it because any rational person can see through that bull crap.

TLDR: pugs by definition are pugs, so there is no inherent identity in the first place. Guilds make WvW work not pugs. There are hundreds of guilds pick one that fits you.

No I disagree. I'm well aware that bg has good commanders but I see pugs endlessly holding off enemy zergs and in a lot of cases whipping them. When you put these pugs in a squad it's the pugs who are doing the work with the guidance of the commander. Bg squads are made up for 80-90% pugs, so yes it's the quality and skill of the pugs that makes a difference. My fear is not being lumped in with a bad group, it's losing motivation because I have no server identity anymore which affects guilds as well. The rallying cry of the server is beast gate, there is reason we are feared by other servers and it isn't any one guilds doing. It's the collective identity of us all that contributes to that and pugs are the main reason for it.

Like I said in the past bg pugs are usually dedicated spvp players so this is why they are so skilled. And pugs do have an identity, we are black gate, and now you want to remove the one thing that ties us together. I'm sorry but I don't agree.

I don't want to be tied to empty oh I'm blue random team this month and that's it. I also don't want to be tied to an alliance. Guilds come and go on bg usually with a lot of drama. The guilds always act like they are the best and don't need anyone, then they transfer and lose endlessly, because it was the pugs that were carrying.

The same pugs that you say have no identity and no pride and don't matter.

You fail to see how the BG pugs become so well trained and disciplined it's because the guilds cultivated them now they can stand on their own, plus people bandwagon to BG for the WvW so you have better WvWers. Like you said the good players joined BG. But the guilds made BG what it is not pugs.

Thats a circular argument. Lets just say it was naturally skilled players who worked with guilds/commanders during wvw tournaments to learn how to play wvw well so really it was a group effort. Aside from that though Spvp actually teaches you to be good at wvw much more then actual wvw does, and these pugs were already doing that before wvw tournaments came out.

Regardless though, for me personally nobody taught me anythign, I just observered and played spvp and wvw. Granted I didnt come up with zvz strategies like commanders did, but my ability to stay alive and make kills came from natural skill as well as spvp specifically. Once I learned how to zvz well by observing it stuck, which is natural for a skilled gamer. Still squads are comprised of 80-90% pugs and BG pugs are extremely potent and a major part of the equation who's concerns and opinions should be taken into account.

No it isn't a circular argument because the guilds layed the foundation that attracted good players and players who just wanted an easy win who in time developed the skills to win by running with the guilds amd commanders who put forth the organization no one taught you anything directly but you picked up how to run from who? Oh yeah the guilds. I'm not talking about individual skill there are plenty of skilled players on every server, I'm talking about only WvW and what made BG dominant, not the pugs but the guilds who attracted both skilled and unskilled puggers.

It is circular because I could then argue that the commanders were only able to execute their pro strategies that they invented due to the high level of skill of the pugs, which then reinforced their strategies and allowed them to hone their techniques which in turn was used to make the pugs more skiled as you say.

what your saying certainly isnt the case for me or quite a few other pugs i know but ok. Regardless I still think its because BG has a high concentration of spvpers on it and those pvpers come to wvw as pugs.

No, you are making it a what comes first the chicken or the egg argument when it's not. The Titan Alliance layed the ground work for WvW. It broke up the guilds and it's members became skilled and organized and out did other servers while educating and cultivating pugs along the way. Then as guilds carried BG to tier 1 and stayed there people became more WvW minded from guild members to pugs. So it became a synergy between guild and pugs is where I think you are getting confused. However, without good dedicated WvW guilds there would be nothing in WvW to speak of. It is evident in the rise and fall of servers through the years when guilds join and leave them. If all BG guilds left I guarantee you BG would be bottom tier.

yes but when guilds leave bg, it dosent budge, so i dunno.

The core never left, guilds have come and gone but the core never left. And yes BG has been #2 and #3 for a good few months when it was desperately looking for OCX and SEA coverage that JQ had more of. Who do you think brought you that coverage? The guilds and the politics that come with them.

Pugs out number guild members that's a fact but it's the guilds that provide a focal point for pugs to rally. BG is talented in that they have pugs that can make adhoc groups and know what they are doing, but it became that way through guilds cultivating that culture. We provide the forums, we provide the team speak for pugs to join and follow commanders, end of story.

You're never going to convince me, its that spvpers are on BG and they pug in wvw. This is what created this entire server, is pvpers and pvp guilds that come into wvw and are able to execute these strategies. This is evident when our own commanders and guilds join their servers and use those expertly conceived strategies against us. Their pugs are not able to execute.

Regardless what does this have to do with this change, this change gives 0 concessions to anyone not in a guild or alliance, I guess we can all just get scattered to the winds and if you liked your server and the idea of the server, oh well the game modes not for you after 6 years of playing it. Real nice.

It's quite obvious I'm not going to convince you of anything a long long time ago.

It's the fight and pvp guilds that built the server obviously pvpers are going to pvp it's the whole point of WvW and pvp.

Other server pugs don't have the same mentality and cultivation that BG has so it's harder and more time consuming to train and cultivate them, TC tried really hard to brand themselves and so did Maguuma, guilds have tried and failed which makes BG unique. The fact that BG is unique kind of makes it impossible to have fair and balanced matches right? So you proved our point, we need a new system.

But my original point is if BG didn't have dedicated pvp/wvw guilds that attract other pvpers and wvwers pug or or not, it would be bottom tier. You as an individual is replaceable as a pug for BG.

yah maybe, you're assuming a lot. We don't have a time machine to test it, so who knows who did what and what was a factor in making BG the monster that it is, there are too many variables, I personally think its just good players attracted good players. And clearly now its because the pugs are too highly skilled and concentrated on BG.

[Warrior.5347]

How to I delete a post outright?

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:Regardless what does this have to do with this change, this change gives 0 concessions to anyone not in a guild or alliance, I guess we can all just get scattered to the winds and if you liked your server and the idea of the server, oh well the game modes not for you after 6 years of playing it. Real nice.

This imply that the "sPvP pug elite" are utterly incapable of joining guilds and organize themselves in even the loosest of alliances. Many guilds will change nature in the future - they will want good roamers and more coverage just to get them on their world, not to mention more big community guilds that will gather up these players (effectivly replacing servers).

You are putting your self-imposed restrictions on the new system and then calling it bad because it has those restrictions. Real nice.

Sidenote: Warrior, you cant delete Jumpin Lumpix posts. Sorry.

[Voltekka.2375]

Wvw is in dire need of change. BG is an overstacked server, even ANET published a graph that showed it, when many BG fellas were complaining that they were just better and that BG doesnt only rely on bigger numbers, all the time. Those fellas promptly fell silent.

Change is needed. Will this be better/worse? We will see. Is Anet going to implement every change they thought of, in the alliances? We still dont know. What we do know, however, is that the current system certainly doesnt work. T1 matchups in NA and EU are boring, people who have grown accustomed to easy lootbags are the only ones who cry about "server pride" or similar concepts.

I do hope the devs keep us updated on how things go. It has certainly been a long time since they announced anything new, regarding the alliances.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Wvw is in dire need of change. BG is an overstacked server, even ANET published a graph that showed it, when many BG fellas were complaining that they were just better and that BG doesnt only rely on bigger numbers, all the time. Those fellas promptly fell silent.

Change is needed. Will this be better/worse? We will see. Is Anet going to implement every change they thought of, in the alliances? We still dont know. What we do know, however, is that the current system certainly doesnt work. T1 matchups in NA and EU are boring, people who have grown accustomed to easy lootbags are the only ones who cry about "server pride" or similar concepts.

I do hope the devs keep us updated on how things go. It has certainly been a long time since they announced anything new, regarding the alliances.

BG fell silent because, despite consistently (outside of reset) having two maps outnumbered, people don't believe it.

BG has coverage right now. That also means during those time zones that are light, they DO have more Players.

Would Love to see an updated graph posted again, with the activity levels of each matchup: hosts plus links.

But hey, like most things, people live in the past.

[BMW.2951]

ANET can you give us an update on when you might think this "WvW alliance" patch might happen? Just a rough guess would make me happy.

Thanks

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Wvw is in dire need of change. BG is an overstacked server, even ANET published a graph that showed it, when many BG fellas were complaining that they were just better and that BG doesnt only rely on bigger numbers, all the time. Those fellas promptly fell silent.

Change is needed. Will this be better/worse? We will see. Is Anet going to implement every change they thought of, in the alliances? We still dont know. What we do know, however, is that the current system certainly doesnt work. T1 matchups in NA and EU are boring, people who have grown accustomed to easy lootbags are the only ones who cry about "server pride" or similar concepts.

I do hope the devs keep us updated on how things go. It has certainly been a long time since they announced anything new, regarding the alliances.

BG fell silent because, despite consistently (outside of reset) having two maps outnumbered, people don't believe it.

BG has coverage right now. That also means during those time zones that are light, they DO have more Players.

Would Love to see an updated graph posted again, with the activity levels of each matchup: hosts plus links.

But hey, like most things, people live in the past.

yes This - BG had no coverage the entire night last night, no commanders on any map for at least 8 + hrs, despite everyone saying BG is stacked and thats why they win.

[LetoII.3782]

It's fairly evident many won't make the cut for the new winning team. It's a valid, if selfish, concern.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Regardless what does this have to do with this change, this change gives 0 concessions to anyone not in a guild or alliance, I guess we can all just get scattered to the winds and if you liked your server and the idea of the server, oh well the game modes not for you after 6 years of playing it. Real nice.

This imply that the "sPvP pug elite" are utterly incapable of joining guilds and organize themselves in even the loosest of alliances. Many guilds will change nature in the future - they will want good roamers and more coverage just to get them on their world, not to mention more big community guilds that will gather up these players (effectivly replacing servers).

You are putting your self-imposed restrictions on the new system and then calling it bad because it has those restrictions. Real nice.

Sidenote: Warrior, you cant delete Jumpin Lumpix posts. Sorry.

Bro, I'm going get banned from forums talking to Lumpix, so I'm just going to stop. They might hit you with a warning for the "Real nice" bit cause it's a microaggression, lol.

Unfortunately, there are posters on this forum that understand their posts will be received with significant frustration. Some have a history of posting items in different sections with an apparent understanding that it will evoke reactions thus leading to people getting infractions.

Of course, we have a name for them, but again, like you noted in your post, I am not going to say the name. :lol:

Some of those posters have even enjoyed short, shall I say 'vacations from the forums imposed on them by the moderators' because of these posts.

However, some have gotten better through that process and learned how to state their posts to evoke the same reactions, without crossing the line themselves.

I have stopped feeding any poster whose living accommodations include a bridge.

And that includes not commenting on their Original posts.

This is perhaps the first time I've posted on forums since GW2 release so I am unaware of such trappings and how soft or hardcore depending on your point of view the moderation is. The only reason I am posting now is I am really passionate about WvW and would love to see better matches without the headache of server caps, politics, and volatilities. I will admit being on BG it is fun to win and get infinite bags with ease. Thanks for the fair warning.

No worries! I've had posts removed in this manner. It seems as if it is mostly based on what is reported, not just from general review.

But agreed, I am also passionate about WvW. And while there are things about the upcoming system I do not like, (I don't like that it is guild centric) I think it is a good attempt to revitalize the mode. And, having a good havoc guild, I am looking forward to us being free agents. Being on new worlds every 8 weeks, and doing our thing.

You do realize how much this tosses the game up in the air and changes things?

Nobody on here has addressed the fact that we are changing the psychology and motivation to play this game mode entirely. I mean they might as well call it something besides wvw because there will be no more servers, and every 8 weeks its more random people and zergs to fight against and it all feels incredibly meaningless to not be a part of something. Alliances don't feel like they will cut it at all, especially for those who don't get into one.

The only thing ive heard in regards to this is that if you're not in an alliance, then you don't matter and you never did and no decisions should be based on what pugs want ever. I find this really unacceptable and I feel like this change is very short sided if thats the attitude we have as a community towards pugs.

Elements of what you said are correct. And they have been brought up in the 46 pages in this thread.

Again, there are ways to make this enjoyable, if someone were to choose so. Links also impacted people negatively as well, but the majority found it beneficial.

As far as individuals getting into an alliance: from what has been noted, and the initial diagram it does not appear as an individual will be able to join an alliance AS an individual. Only as a member of a guild that is in the alliance.

Worlds will exist, but for purposes of the current system, they will be remade every 8 weeks. So, for 8 weeks you can be aligned with a group of people.

Not being a jerk here, but you have stated you don't need a squad, and you won't join TS, so, short of getting to know new people, and how they perform, why should this change negatively impact you?

Winning already doesn't matter, and they have stated rewards won't change,

Because the only link of identity that I have with wvw is being erased (server), as well as any familiarity and motivation to fight for something is also being wiped out as well. This is why I don't play eotm, because its meaningless, where we are not fighting for anything just rewards.

Understood, but the bulk of those rewards come from participation and reward tracks. Which are effectively not tied to winning, yes, pip gain increases incrementally based on who is ahead in a skirmish, but it's very limited in its significance.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Regardless what does this have to do with this change, this change gives 0 concessions to anyone not in a guild or alliance, I guess we can all just get scattered to the winds and if you liked your server and the idea of the server, oh well the game modes not for you after 6 years of playing it. Real nice.

This imply that the "sPvP pug elite" are utterly incapable of joining guilds and organize themselves in even the loosest of alliances. Many guilds will change nature in the future - they will want good roamers and more coverage just to get them on their world, not to mention more big community guilds that will gather up these players (effectivly replacing servers).

You are putting your self-imposed restrictions on the new system and then calling it bad because it has those restrictions. Real nice.

Sidenote: Warrior, you cant delete Jumpin Lumpix posts. Sorry.

Bro, I'm going get banned from forums talking to Lumpix, so I'm just going to stop. They might hit you with a warning for the "Real nice" bit cause it's a microaggression, lol.

Unfortunately, there are posters on this forum that understand their posts will be received with significant frustration. Some have a history of posting items in different sections with an apparent understanding that it will evoke reactions thus leading to people getting infractions.

Of course, we have a name for them, but again, like you noted in your post, I am not going to say the name. :lol:

Some of those posters have even enjoyed short, shall I say 'vacations from the forums imposed on them by the moderators' because of these posts.

However, some have gotten better through that process and learned how to state their posts to evoke the same reactions, without crossing the line themselves.

I have stopped feeding any poster whose living accommodations include a bridge.

And that includes not commenting on their Original posts.

This is perhaps the first time I've posted on forums since GW2 release so I am unaware of such trappings and how soft or hardcore depending on your point of view the moderation is. The only reason I am posting now is I am really passionate about WvW and would love to see better matches without the headache of server caps, politics, and volatilities. I will admit being on BG it is fun to win and get infinite bags with ease. Thanks for the fair warning.

No worries! I've had posts removed in this manner. It seems as if it is mostly based on what is reported, not just from general review.

But agreed, I am also passionate about WvW. And while there are things about the upcoming system I do not like, (I don't like that it is guild centric) I think it is a good attempt to revitalize the mode. And, having a good havoc guild, I am looking forward to us being free agents. Being on new worlds every 8 weeks, and doing our thing.

You do realize how much this tosses the game up in the air and changes things?

Nobody on here has addressed the fact that we are changing the psychology and motivation to play this game mode entirely. I mean they might as well call it something besides wvw because there will be no more servers, and every 8 weeks its more random people and zergs to fight against and it all feels incredibly meaningless to not be a part of something. Alliances don't feel like they will cut it at all, especially for those who don't get into one.

The only thing ive heard in regards to this is that if you're not in an alliance, then you don't matter and you never did and no decisions should be based on what pugs want ever. I find this really unacceptable and I feel like this change is very short sided if thats the attitude we have as a community towards pugs.

Elements of what you said are correct. And they have been brought up in the 46 pages in this thread.

Again, there are ways to make this enjoyable, if someone were to choose so. Links also impacted people negatively as well, but the majority found it beneficial.

As far as individuals getting into an alliance: from what has been noted, and the initial diagram it does not appear as an individual will be able to join an alliance AS an individual. Only as a member of a guild that is in the alliance.

Worlds will exist, but for purposes of the current system, they will be remade every 8 weeks. So, for 8 weeks you can be aligned with a group of people.

Not being a jerk here, but you have stated you don't need a squad, and you won't join TS, so, short of getting to know new people, and how they perform, why should this change negatively impact you?

Winning already doesn't matter, and they have stated rewards won't change,

Because the only link of identity that I have with wvw is being erased (server), as well as any familiarity and motivation to fight for something is also being wiped out as well. This is why I don't play eotm, because its meaningless, where we are not fighting for anything just rewards.

Understood, but the bulk of those rewards come from participation and reward tracks. Which are

effectively

not tied to winning, yes, pip gain increases incrementally based on who is ahead in a skirmish, but it's very limited in its significance.

I dont care about winning, I would be fine with wiping out server ranks and the PPT system, I just don't want the servers destroyed or broken up.

[Eater of Peeps.9062]

I have read all 47 pages of this thread and still don't see a single suggestion for resolution of the issue of pugs.

What are we to do with pugs under the new proposed system?

Many pugs are skilled, dedicated, enthusiastic players who have been affiliated with selected servers since wvw inception. Many pugs are not roamers/gankers and do not have roamer/solo builds - they have builds/gear designed for wvw zerg play. They play in squads and contribute significantly to play/wins/bags/rank, etc. Many pugs do not want to join guilds or have guilds. Many pugs may have difficulty finding guilds for numerous reasons - including: 1) they are not liked; 2) they are not geared out; 3) they have the wrong/undesired class; 4) they do not have access to TS/discord or are unable to use it for numerous reasons including disabilities, etc.; 5) they are noobs/newbies; 6) they are outspoken; 7) they are not active/regulars; 8) they are not team players and do not wish to listen/engage in guild chat; 9) they have unique/signature builds (not meta); 10) they have their own reasons for not wanting to be in a guild.

So what do we do with these skilled unaffiliated players who are not solos/roamers?

Do we just not care about them at all, simply because some people claim the "majority" favors this change (which I am not sure has been established at all by anyone)? Do we just tell them - we don't care about you - go right ahead and quit? If this is the solution, why?

If the answer is - go join a guild - what if they won't, or more importantly, what if the guilds won't have them? This system sets people up for alienation and hurt feelings and eventual attrition and loss of excellent pug player base. This proposed system is ripe with the flaw of exclusionary play. If we don't like you, you can't join - or, we will try you out, but if you don't change your build/die less/join TS, etc. you're out or we won't heal you or we wont rez you or we won't whatever (insert particular exclusionary behavior here). This forces people to conform to guilds' arbitrary rules and eventual booting if the pug doesn't want to abide by arbitrary guild rules on top of anet rules - is this really the best solution? Cant we do better?

We must all remember, that while this game is a MM0, and involves community play - it is still sold to individuals (not distributed thru guilds/alliances). The game is advertised for use by individuals.

Can't we all think of a system that accomplishes the goal of server balancing, that does not come at the cost of exclusionary/alienating behaviors against our dedicated skilled pugs?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"Eater of Peeps.9062" said:I have read all 47 pages of this thread and still don't see a single suggestion for resolution of the issue of pugs.

What are we to do with pugs under the new proposed system?

Many pugs are skilled, dedicated, enthusiastic players who have been affiliated with selected servers since wvw inception. Many pugs are not roamers/gankers and do not have roamer/solo builds - they have builds/gear designed for wvw zerg play. They play in squads and contribute significantly to play/wins/bags/rank, etc. Many pugs do not want to join guilds or have guilds. Many pugs may have difficulty finding guilds for numerous reasons - including: 1) they are not liked; 2) they are not geared out; 3) they have the wrong/undesired class; 4) they do not have access to TS/discord or are unable to use it for numerous reasons including disabilities, etc.; 5) they are noobs/newbies; 6) they are outspoken; 7) they are not active/regulars; 8) they are not team players and do not wish to listen/engage in guild chat; 9) they have unique/signature builds (not meta); 10) they have their own reasons for not wanting to be in a guild.

So what do we do with these skilled unaffiliated players who are not solos/roamers?

Do we just not care about them at all, simply because some people claim the "majority" favors this change (which I am not sure has been established at all by anyone)? Do we just tell them - we don't care about you - go right ahead and quit? If this is the solution, why?

If the answer is - go join a guild - what if they won't, or more importantly, what if the guilds won't have them? This system sets people up for alienation and hurt feelings and eventual attrition and loss of excellent pug player base. This proposed system is ripe with the flaw of exclusionary play. If we don't like you, you can't join - or, we will try you out, but if you don't change your build/die less/join TS, etc. you're out or we won't heal you or we wont rez you or we won't whatever (insert particular exclusionary behavior here). This forces people to conform to guilds' arbitrary rules and eventual booting if the pug doesn't want to abide by arbitrary guild rules on top of anet rules - is this really the best solution? Cant we do better?

We must all remember, that while this game is a MM0, and involves community play - it is still sold to individuals (not distributed thru guilds/alliances). The game is advertised for use by individuals.

Can't we all think of a system that accomplishes the goal of server balancing, that does not come at the cost of exclusionary/alienating behaviors against our dedicated skilled pugs?

It only changes which commanders and guilds you have around you.

Most current servers are forming 'community' guilds for their militia. Likely your server has one too. Most of these are not focused on being formal. But it is an opportunity to have the bulk stay with people they know.

[Eater of Peeps.9062]

Most current servers are forming 'community' guilds for their militia. Likely your server has one too. Most of these are not focused on being formal. But it is an opportunity to have the bulk stay with people they know.

So? How does this comment address anything I posted? "Most?" "Likely?" " ... the bulk?" "' ... community guilds' ..." (sounds friendly, but I bet its exclusionary at its worst). "... an opportunity?" "... the bulk?" You speak in/of majorities.

Your post adds nothing. You are simply reiterating the very system I am complaining about and have concerns about. "Most of these are not focused on being formal" (whatever that means) - sounds like many or all tho will be (or could be) focused on being formal (whatever that means) - i.e. - being exclusionary or rigid or whatever. Exactly what I am complaining about.

You are just re-characterizing the proposed system that I am seeing as a potentially game/player-harming "proposed system change/solution." You have addressed nothing in my post despite taking the time to quote it. What you have said is not a solution - it is the proposed system I am complaining about (and its 'reach around' net effects/fall out).

Gosh, I hope I am so lucky enough on my current server to find the one "informal" guild I hope exists who will also have me as its member, despite all my foibles/idiosyncrasies/flaws/newbishness/disabilities/annoying behaviors/gear/build/bad play/bad attitude, etc.

If not tho, then what? I shop until I have been excluded and demoralized by all of them? Then what?

I bought the game, just like you.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"Eater of Peeps.9062" said:

Most current servers are forming 'community' guilds for their militia. Likely your server has one too. Most of these are not focused on being formal. But it is an opportunity to have the bulk stay with people they know.

So? How does this comment address anything I posted? "Most?" "Likely?" " ... the bulk?" "' ... community guilds' ..." (sounds friendly, but I bet its exclusionary at its worst). "... an opportunity?" "... the bulk?" You speak in/of majorities.

Your post adds nothing. You are simply reiterating the very system I am complaining about and have concerns about. "Most of these are not focused on being formal" (whatever that means) - sounds like many or all tho will be (or could be) focused on being formal (whatever that means) - i.e. - being exclusionary or rigid or whatever. Exactly what I am complaining about.

You are just re-characterizing the proposed system that I am seeing as a potentially game/player-harming "proposed system change/solution." You have addressed nothing in my post despite taking the time to quote it. What you have said is not a solution - it is the proposed system I am complaining about (and its 'reach around' net effects/fall out).

Gosh, I hope I am so lucky enough on my current server to find the one "informal" guild I hope exists who will also have me as its member, despite all my foibles/idiosyncrasies/flaws/newbishness/disabilities/annoying behaviors/gear/build/bad play/bad attitude, etc.

If not tho, then what? I shop until I have been excluded and demoralized by all of them? Then what?

I bought the game, just like you.

Wow. Not sure where that came from. I don't know what part of my comment elicited or deserved a rude response.

I simply noted the current facts as we know them, and what some communities are trying to do to maintain some cohesion with the upcoming change.

And nothing is in stone. Although, it would appear as the mortar has been placed and we are just waiting for I it to set.

[Eater of Peeps.9062]

I wasn't being rude at all. I noted your comment did not address anything in my post, yet you quoted it. All you did was note how communities are trying to work around the proposed system, which is what I was complaining about. No need to quote me if you're not addressing my post.

[XenesisII.1540]

If pugs don't want to join guilds on their current server, and just randomly joining pug zergs going on, then what does it matter what world they play on? If they are indeed skilled then I'm sure there are guilds that would take them regardless of the other hurdles listed, guilds are always looking for skilled players willing to be part of a team.

The question is that "skilled pug" really looking to be part of a community whether that be a fight guild(one that wants skill and expects to follow their gear/spec rules) or a community guild(one that recruits almost everyone and you can play however you want), or are they just looking to jump on for two hours and join the loot train zerg? If it's for the loot train well then the only important thing that will change is the commander, and that already partly happens when relinks are done every 2 months.

[LetoII.3782]

Kinda silly to ask questions no one can answer.We all have access to the same limited idea of Anet's plan

[Eater of Peeps.9062]

I don't care anything about bags/loot trains. Anet could take it all away, and I would still play. That's not why I play.

Personally, I am also not interested in joining a "community guild" - one that recruits "almost everyone" (still exclusionary) or a quasi militaristic "fight guild" that demands blind cookie cutter allegiance and builds essentially requiring nothing more than a good follower with a tank build (who never dies above all else) and who is willing or able to listen ad nauseum to music not of their choice and mindless toxic banter/commands on TS.

I am a solo pug and I have skill. As a full ascender viper scourge and full ascended zerker chrono and full ascended meta warrior/ele/guard/etc (Ive played them all) I help to make it so that many people in zerg enjoy many bags and our server has many wins.

So, to answer you, as to me personally, I am skilled, and I don't want to be part of a guild and I am not sure any of them will have me anyway. So now what?

And btw, I am just one player. There are many similarly situated for many different reasons. What do we do with them all? If we force them into guilds, whatever their composition/formality level (whatever that is), they might/will quit. And worse, if no one or few guilds will have them - why force them to humiliate themselves into begging for a guild they don't want to be in the first place? Why are we forcing the issue?

Can't Anet and the community think of something better than a system that at its core encourages mindless/resentful affiliation or worse, abusive exclusionary alienation and eventual attrition?

[Shining One.1635]

Nothing is being forced. I'm primarily a solo player myself. I'm not in an active guild (I still rep a dead guild for purposes of claim benefits). I don't see how this upcoming change negatively affects me. I can and will continue to play exactly the way I do now after the change. Am I missing something?

[Dralor.3701]

This will be the best thing that has happened to wvw in ages, only people defending the current status quo are the bandwagon players.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:If pugs don't want to join guilds on their current server, and just randomly joining pug zergs going on, then what does it matter what world they play on? If they are indeed skilled then I'm sure there are guilds that would take them regardless of the other hurdles listed, guilds are always looking for skilled players willing to be part of a team.

The question is that "skilled pug" really looking to be part of a community whether that be a fight guild(one that wants skill and expects to follow their gear/spec rules) or a community guild(one that recruits almost everyone and you can play however you want), or are they just looking to jump on for two hours and join the loot train zerg? If it's for the loot train well then the only important thing that will change is the commander, and that already partly happens when relinks are done every 2 months.

Because we are used to playing with guilds and commanders in a cohesive environment that elicits camaraderie. IF we make it random, that cohesion is lost. I don't want to lose that, I also don't want to lose my identity as being on BG. I also don't want to play with guilds and other players from servers I have come to despise. I also don't want to play in a guild and have to adhere to rules. So is there any compromise or concessions or place for someone like me? or am i just done w/the game mode after 6 years of playing?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Shining One.1635 said:Nothing is being forced. I'm primarily a solo player myself. I'm not in an active guild (I still rep a dead guild for purposes of claim benefits). I don't see how this upcoming change negatively affects me. I can and will continue to play exactly the way I do now after the change. Am I missing something?

No. You aren't missing anything. It's change, and there are many who hate change.

People who play solo will only need to get used to different people running around them every 8 weeks. Even alliances willHave to adjust each 8 weeks (as currently noted, an alliance would only be as big as 20% of the world cap), though their core will be familiar.

[LetoII.3782]

@Eater of Peeps.9062 said:

Can't Anet and the community think of something better ?Can't you?

As to the rest, if you simply cannot find any group to suit you, one will be assigned. Pugs will be the mortar between the stones (guilds) evening things out. It seems a better situation than the dogpile on the winner situation we've had since launch.Heck, back at launch guilds like the one I was in routinely had to move just to play. You bought the game, so did I.. is the group of purchasers less than the one?Does your desire to be on the winning server mean I have to move ahead of the queues you create after my group boosted that server into a good position?

[Eater of Peeps.9062]

@Shining One.1635 said:Nothing is being forced. I'm primarily a solo player myself. I'm not in an active guild (I still rep a dead guild for purposes of claim benefits). I don't see how this upcoming change negatively affects me. I can and will continue to play exactly the way I do now after the change. Am I missing something?

Yes. You basically wont be able to play in wvw unless u r part of a guild that is accepted by an alliance. So if guild numbers per alliance are capped (which I suspect they will be as it that was it how it operated in GW1 and it seems improbable that endless guilds can join an alliance) your dead guild (ie - solo player) will be excluded and you will have to disband it (or not use it in wvw) and join another guild that is part of the alliance (ie- exclusionary play is encouraged - ie - we don't want you/your guild/your build/your whatever). If you don't join another guild that is an accepted part of an alliance (or if you don't want to join a guild at all) or if they won't have you or your guild for whatever reasons, then what happens to you?

Where do you play? How do you play? Who do you play with? Especially if you are not a solo ganker/roamer but are outfitted/built for zerg play?

No accommodation has been made for the multitudes of players (or even just a minority few) similarly situated. No one has proposed a single solution as to what to do in this situation, except to let the players go bye bye forever. Kicked to the curb so to speak.