World Restructuring

[SWI.4127]

Just a thought: It would be cool if, instead of a title to commemorate your previous world, you would get a finisher which somehow represented your old server instead. A finisher is more relevant in WvW. Personally, I don't pay much attention to titles at all, but maybe that's just me. Obviously the hard part would be the design. It's not like worlds currently have icons or anything that you could base the design on. I'm sure the more creative types could come up with something though.

[XenesisII.1540]

I'm hoping for at least titles, something a little personal to remember the server you were on like Beastgate or Magswag, although titles don't show in wvw so it's kinda pointless.

Finishers would be cool too, perhaps one like the guild flag finisher showing the abbreviated name or icon of that server, like BG SoS MAG YB JQ etc.

Or unique Backpieces like the guild one or banners like the ones that came out with pof with abbreviated server names or icons on them.

[Myxam.2790]

I'm not certain if its a consideration, or how this will work, but I'll pose a very likely scenario that will occur.

I am the leader of a Roleplaying megaguild, and Alliances would ultimately resolve the necessity of my guild existing (Thankfully putting me out of the job and letting me enjoy my position in the RP guild I'm apart of). The guilds that represent under my tag would be able to band together under alliances and communicate in game with a universal chat (I can't imagine this system not implementing a new chat channel) as well as out of game through Discord. A handful of members in this collective engage in WvW on a personal basis.

If this system was implimented solely in mind of WvW, would the existence of my new Alliance sort the entire population into one of these realms every 8 weeks and 'fill' potential slots that wouldn't be used because of this handful of members playing WvW, while the rest of the alliance doesn't? Wouldn't it be more apt to allow Alliances to form for other reasons such as sPvP, Raiding, Fractals, PvE Trains, or Roleplaying? Or will there be some kind of measure in place to exclude these types of guilds from allying?

Could alliances opt out of WvW sorting? Could we see flags for Alliances in specific content that would allow, say two or three full commander squads of guild members be sorted into the same instance of VB,AB,TD, DS, DoI, or SS?

You've given me a lot of hope for this feature reducing the headaches and hoops I have to jump through, and I look forward to a response.

[XenesisII.1540]

Alliances are only used for the purpose of sorting groups of players to the wvw worlds at their creation every 8 weeks, megaservers are used for everything else. Those who choose a guild in your alliance as their wvw guild will be sorted into the same world as the rest of the alliance, there is no reason to have alliances in any other part of the game, you can all already join each other in the same zones at any time. If you're wanting alliances just for another chat channel might be better off asking for a chat channel across guilds instead. They haven't said if alliances will have a separate channel yet.

[Ianto.5483]

I'm not sure I understand the point of this new system. You claim that it will help balance WvW but when guilds can just form alliances to completely bypass the world placements, then you'll just end up making a system like Archeage's player nations: Where all the best players are in 1 group stomping everyone else.

I'm not even sure if there is a way to keep guildies together AND provide a balanced WvW experience for the majority of your playerbase. You're going to have to choose one or the other.

[XenesisII.1540]

A full alliance will not be a biggest part of the population. There will be caps on alliance populations so that you can't just stack every good guild into one alliance.Alliances will also be randomly placed into the worlds just like solo guilds and players so they're not just stacking all the good full alliances into one world.They will be monitoring different statistics/metrics of players to make up the balance of the world, mostly what times you play, your commander time etc.

Look at the world creation example image again. Most likely what will happen is they will take the alliances that are full (3 guilds in that image) and placed them first then move to placing alliances with 2 guilds, then they will fill out the rest of the spots with guilds with no alliances and then players with no guilds or alliances. They won't just fill up one world first and then move to fill the next one, that is the point of balancing out the populations.

Creating worlds this way gives them a LOT of pieces and options to create a balance population and coverage, unlike links which they do now have enough pieces (servers) to fully make that balanced.

[morrolan.9608]

@Ianto.5483 said:I'm not sure I understand the point of this new system. You claim that it will help balance WvW but when guilds can just form alliances to completely bypass the world placements, then you'll just end up making a system like Archeage's player nations: Where all the best players are in 1 group stomping everyone else.

I'm not even sure if there is a way to keep guildies together AND provide a balanced WvW experience for the majority of your playerbase. You're going to have to choose one or the other.

There will be limitations on the numbers of guilds and the number of active players in an alliance and an alliance will bea smallish percentage of the total players of a world.

[Lord Of The Tree.5249]

Like the idea of being guild based rather than world base. That is a change long overdue. I believe the alliance part could have a big negative effect overall and turn into the same mess as we have now with world linking. With each person having 6 guilds to choose from it can make it hard for guild leaders to get the people needed for WvW. Might be good way to build up our guilds. One other big improvement is get rid of EOTM and the ruins. When they came into the game lost 3/4 of my guild who just quit the game. That is still one of my pet peeves about this game.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

I wonder what the predicted downtime between end and beginning of each world reset will be? Right now it's 5 or less mins and that's just sorting existing servers, break that down to indivdual players and, hmm, how long will that take? Then once it opens add possible immediate ques and you have a lot of unhappy players before this thing is even tested.

[Ianto.5483]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@"Ianto.5483" said:I'm not sure I understand the point of this new system. You claim that it will help balance WvW but when guilds can just form alliances to completely bypass the world placements, then you'll just end up making a system like Archeage's player nations: Where all the best players are in 1 group stomping everyone else.

I'm not even sure if there is a way to keep guildies together AND provide a balanced WvW experience for the majority of your playerbase. You're going to have to choose one or the other.

There will be limitations on the numbers of guilds and the number of active players in an alliance and an alliance will bea smallish percentage of the total players of a world.

Except: " Our current plans for alliance size are somewhere between 500-1000 members"and: "Because of this, there are plans to allow transfers between worlds during a season. This means that new worlds will have size restrictions on them, as they do currently." but a server cannot be x-ferd to unless the active pop drops below 90%. 91-100% is all you need to completely lock down a server as "invitation only".

This new system will not add structure to WvW but give players far too much control over it and certain players will take advantage of this.

[XenesisII.1540]

And then it resets in 8 weeks so they can try and do whatever to jig the system, they're just wasting gems for nothing.

[Kilo.2539]

@joneirikb.7506 said:

@"Sabre.8251" said:I allready can foresee trouble with Alliances system. Of course the "real" WvW players, or better said the good WvW players will end up sitting in a few guilds, which will create an Alliance. Pretty sure this can be expected. Ending up with maybe 1-2 Alliances of good WvW players against the rest (Roamers, newbies, trolls and so on).You may want to rethink the Alliances system, it will leave the matches to good WvW'ers vs bad/new WvW players.

Counter point for food for thought: So if good players stack together in one alliance, and fill out 1000 motivated and skillful players. That shoudl be about 25% of the total "server". What if the other 75% of that server keeps getting filled with random fair-weather pugs that just wants to afk farm their gift of battle, refuse to use meta battle builds, learn to play, or use voice chats, or any other kind of organizations.

Are those 1000 players in that one super alliance going to carry the 3000 other players alone ? Can 1000 people hold up against 2 other servers with a more even mix of motivation ?

I think that alone could be interesting to watch.

I doubt all of YB pugs would end up on the same server.

[Warrior.5347]

I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

[Warrior.5347]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

[Euryon.9248]

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

Let's see, someone could be in a bank guild, a guild for personal friends, a wvw guild, a raid guild, and a general PVE guild. All legitimate guilds with different foci, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[joneirikb.7506]

@"Warrior.5347" said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

If disregarding the "across multiple servers" part, then:

It really is up to each individual person how to deal and think about it. Some want to join 1 guild and stay in it, others likes to have different guilds for different things etc. A lot of people enjoys having a personal bank guild, or a personal friend guild, besides being part of a larger community guild etc.

With the "across multiple servers" part:

This changes things a little, thing is that you can still stick to what you prefer/enjoy for yourself. I have several guild mates that are part of multiple guilds over multiple servers, because they enjoy fighting and dueling each others. In that regard they really use the extra guilds more like "extended friend lists", without having to add multiple 20+ man guilds worth of players to friend list. In that regard it works pretty well.

I always thought the largest problem was that you could join a guild in pve (etc) and end up not being on the same world in WvW. But that is something they're actually planning to fix with this change.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

EOS peeps used to have people questioning about multi guild system and how it will affect social cohesiveness.

But your question is about multi guild in same servers. I don't see the point. Firstly, the game isn't about just WvW.

[Warrior.5347]

@joneirikb.7506 said:

@"Warrior.5347" said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

If disregarding the "across multiple servers" part, then:

It really is up to each individual person how to deal and think about it. Some want to join 1 guild and stay in it, others likes to have different guilds for different things etc. A lot of people enjoys having a personal bank guild, or a personal friend guild, besides being part of a larger community guild etc.

With the "across multiple servers" part:

This changes things a little, thing is that you can still stick to what you prefer/enjoy for yourself. I have several guild mates that are part of multiple guilds over multiple servers, because they enjoy fighting and dueling each others. In that regard they really use the extra guilds more like "extended friend lists", without having to add multiple 20+ man guilds worth of players to friend list. In that regard it works pretty well.

I always thought the largest problem was that you could join a guild in pve (etc) and end up not being on the same world in WvW. But that is something they're actually planning to fix with this change.

My thing is the paradox of choice too many options can make a person spoiled as to not having to sacrifice or work towards anything. I understand the guild bank guild, that's not the issue. People seem to want their cake and eat it too keeping their 5 guilds for 5 different things to hang out with maybe 10 people, rather focusing in developing a single identity in a multifaceted or single purpose guild. That's real work and community imo.

[Warrior.5347]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

EOS peeps used to have people questioning about multi guild system and how it will affect social cohesiveness.

But your question is about multi guild in same servers. I don't see the point. Firstly, the game isn't about just WvW.

No my statement includes across multiple servers too. Its not all about WvW you are right, but the conundrum of using multi guild, multi server as earth shatteting reasons not to switch seems selfish and the system itself seems to have made some people complacent. In all it seems to be a choice of dead game mode losing WvW players or a new way of life with a revived game mode that we can and will all adapt to.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

EOS peeps used to have people questioning about multi guild system and how it will affect social cohesiveness.

But your question is about multi guild in same servers. I don't see the point. Firstly, the game isn't about just WvW.

No my statement includes across multiple servers too. Its not all about WvW you are right, but the conundrum of using multi guild, multi server as earth shatteting reasons not to switch seems selfish and the system itself seems to have made some people complacent. In all it seems to be a choice of dead game mode losing WvW players or a new way of life with a revived game mode that we can and will all adapt to.

Same difference. Half full vs half empty.

Gw2 is a muilt guild system, the players in gw2 already take on the culture of multi guilds system and sadly enough, the culture isn't a competitive culture because that is how a multi guilds system is. Multi guilds system first and foremost, destroy the immersion of a game from a guild perspective and with that, it destroys everything that come alongside with it. It is funny to me how many people can talk about guild pride when they are mercenaries of different guilds. In any case, the many gw2 populations are multi guilds cultured and thus are decisions and thought processes, kinda twisted, kinda wrapped.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Warrior.5347 said:

@joneirikb.7506 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

If disregarding the "across multiple servers" part, then:

It really is up to each individual person how to deal and think about it. Some want to join 1 guild and stay in it, others likes to have different guilds for different things etc. A lot of people enjoys having a personal bank guild, or a personal friend guild, besides being part of a larger community guild etc.

With the "across multiple servers" part:

This changes things a little, thing is that you can still stick to what you prefer/enjoy for yourself. I have several guild mates that are part of multiple guilds over multiple servers, because they enjoy fighting and dueling each others. In that regard they really use the extra guilds more like "extended friend lists", without having to add multiple 20+ man guilds worth of players to friend list. In that regard it works pretty well.

I always thought the largest problem was that you could join a guild in pve (etc) and end up not being on the same world in WvW. But that is something they're actually planning to fix with this change.

My thing is the paradox of choice too many options can make a person spoiled as to not having to sacrifice or work towards anything. I understand the guild bank guild, that's not the issue. People seem to want their cake and eat it too keeping their 5 guilds for 5 different things to hang out with maybe 10 people, rather focusing in developing a single identity in a multifaceted or single purpose guild. That's real work and community imo.That's not community, that would be the game basicly saying "oh you like WvW? Well then you cant like raiding because you are only allowed to be in a WvW guild or a raiding guild, not both" or "you want to join an sPvP focused guild? Sooooorry you are already part of a PvE guild... leave that. Now. Kitten your friends, you'll get new ones."

Anet chose to make the game accessable and IMO its a much, much better game for it.

[Euryon.9248]

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

@Warrior.5347 said:

@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Warrior.5347 said:I think being able to join multiple guilds across multiple servers is dumb in the first place, change my mind.

i think that able to join multi guilds in the first place is casualthen again, what mind did you change?

I'm here to get my mind changed, not to change minds. It sounds rather unintuitive and spoiled from all the complaints here.

EOS peeps used to have people questioning about multi guild system and how it will affect social cohesiveness.

But your question is about multi guild in same servers. I don't see the point. Firstly, the game isn't about just WvW.

No my statement includes across multiple servers too. Its not all about WvW you are right, but the conundrum of using multi guild, multi server as earth shatteting reasons not to switch seems selfish and the system itself seems to have made some people complacent. In all it seems to be a choice of dead game mode losing WvW players or a new way of life with a revived game mode that we can and will all adapt to.

I'm not really understanding this. Different guilds have different foci. I have friends that wvw and only wvw. I want to run wvw with them. But I also want to do PvE with other friends, and maybe raid or do fractals with guilds focused on those things. I'm not "diluted" nor is my "culture" somehow contaminated because I choose to have multiple interests and multiple guilds focused on those various interests.

The only instance I can really see is the one of having multiple wvw guilds across multiple servers, which I will agree seems silly and somewhat contradictory.

[SkyShroud.2865]

He mentioned "multifaceted or single purpose guild". Something gamers that played for more than a decade can easily understand but others may find it hard to.

If I were to put it into logic and science. I would use Dunbar's number and define community.

Community, in general speaking, is a group of people having thus working towards a common goal or values or beliefs, and helping each other along the way. Dunbar's number is a theory on the cognitive limit on numbers of people regards to stable social relationships.

In the old days of mmorpg, many, if not all guilds are multifaceted. Some may be a bit more pvp or pve oriented but nevertheless, multifaceted (pvx) by default. Most of the old mmorpgs guilds have very low capacity, capping slightly more than 100. This, according to Dunbar's number, is the minimum max amount of people that you can form a stable social relationships with; we have to consider real life relationships as well. With that say, you can see that the old mmorpgs emphasis strongly on guild community and bonds.

Now, moving on to the multi guilds culture. The boundary of multifaceted become blurred. Multifaceted players will join a single purpose guild even if the common interest is different by default, the multifaceted players' interests is not the same as single interest players. It may overlap but definitely not the same. Still, you might think it isn't a issue because the multifaceted players still can do the same thing as the single interest players. However, that will eventually put the community to test because of the Dunbar's number. Multifaceted players will join multiple guilds, not just one. You can even say he is in multiple communities. This means that multifaceted players cannot, by theory, manage to maintain stable social relationships for all the communities he is part of. Not only that, the communities he is part of may have conflicts in activities thus he will choose to forgo one to join the other activities at that point or many points of time. After those, can he really be considered as member of the community by definition and Dunbar's number?

The same applies for single purpose players joining multifaceted guild or multiple single purpose guilds, and multifaceted players joining multifaceted guilds for a single purpose.

Regardless, gw2 is multi guilds culture, nothing gonna change.

SourceWhat is community? - http://appalachianmagazine.org/podcasts/dave/id/449Dunbar's Number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

[Dawdler.8521]

@"SkyShroud.2865" said:He mentioned "multifaceted or single purpose guild". Something gamers that played for more than a decade can easily understand but others may find it hard to.

If I were to put it into logic and science. I would use Dunbar's number and define community.

Community, in general speaking, is a group of people having thus working towards a common goal or values or beliefs, and helping each other along the way. Dunbar's number is a theory on the cognitive limit on numbers of people regards to stable social relationships.

In the old days of mmorpg, many, if not all guilds are multifaceted. Some may be a bit more pvp or pve oriented but nevertheless, multifaceted (pvx) by default. Most of the old mmorpgs guilds have very low capacity, capping slightly more than 100. This, according to Dunbar's number, is the minimum max amount of people that you can form a stable social relationships with; we have to consider real life relationships as well. With that say, you can see that the old mmorpgs emphasis strongly on guild community and bonds.

Now, moving on to the multi guilds culture. The boundary of multifaceted become blurred. Multifaceted players will join a single purpose guild even if the common interest is different by default, the multifaceted players' interests is not the same as single interest players. It may overlap but definitely not the same. Still, you might think it isn't a issue because the multifaceted players still can do the same thing as the single interest players. However, that will eventually put the community to test because of the Dunbar's number. Multifaceted players will join multiple guilds, not just one. You can even say he is in multiple communities. This means that multifaceted players cannot, by theory, manage to maintain stable social relationships for all the communities he is part of. Not only that, the communities he is part of may have conflicts in activities thus he will choose to forgo one to join the other activities at that point or many points of time. After those, can he really be considered as member of the community by definition and Dunbar's number?

The same applies for single purpose players joining multifaceted guild or multiple single purpose guilds, and multifaceted players joining multifaceted guilds for a single purpose.

Regardless, gw2 is multi guilds culture, nothing gonna change.

SourceWhat is community? - http://appalachianmagazine.org/podcasts/dave/id/449Dunbar's Number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_numberTL;DR you can still join only one 100 man guild if you want to, nothing is forcing you to join multiple guilds.

But it really doesnt matter how one argue here, when someone say "change my mind" that means they have already made up their mind and never gonna change their mind.