Why the change to scourge condi?

Axl.8924 · February 15, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:Y> @Axl.8924 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Irokou.3215 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:If you are convinced Anet is following a meta mentality, please tell us why after 5 years we have:
a large range in damage performance over classes (and healing for that matter)
balance patches that consistently have changes that defy the direction a meta-balancing direction would take
no reference from Anet about performance between classes
There is NOTHING in this game that indicates Anet as adopted a meta mentality that goes against their own play how you want mentality. if you see a meta mentality, it's because you don't know what it means in the first place and justifies your complaint.

The answer to each of those is that Anet is incompetent with regards to balancing their game.

Could be ... or it could be they don't need to balance the class performance because there is no holy trinity and it's not necessary. Game history shows you don't need performance balance to complete content ... so what's Anet's motivation to provide it? There isn't any. It's a nice to have, not a necessity.

Either way

... we don't have it after 5 years, why are people so convinced it's just around the corner? That it's something Anet strive to provide? Those people are unrealistic. They don't observe how the game has evolved. The don't know how to make the connection between Anet's game philosophy and what that means for the practical implementation.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need.

Sure.

But every class

has more dmg now. Look at warrior. Pre pof when zerker ps warrior was a thing, you were like "uh look at dis, i did 60k dmg with gs 2"Now its like "uh look at dis, i did 120k dmg with axe 5 (or 4?)" Im not that into warrior, cause its lame to play.

And for necro: it doesnt have more dmg than pre pof.Before you could pull like 32-34k dps as condi reaper.Now its back down to 29k. Exactly the same like condi-scourge

OH, there you go with irrelevant meta mentality again; comparing to EVERY other class. I'm not being obtuse here. Nothing about this game indicates that Anet is on some grand plan to ensure classes to have equivalent performance, nothing. I can't honestly see where people get ANY indication Anet cares about the performance between classes, aside from just

hoping

it's true.

@cobracommander.5861 said:Everyone here has let this thread get hijacked by an open world pve RP MM. scourge is subpar is raids and nobody would ever take a power reaper. I pull 27.5 dps on power reaper and that would get me laughed out of town. Whether people like it or not, if we want to play high end content on the classes we want to play, it has to have viable builds that make it worth it. Otherwise you’re just RP. Less QQ, more pew pew on getting some dps boosts.

Just no ... if you want to play high end content on the classes and builds you want to play, you need to play with people that think JUST LIKE YOU.

No thats not right. We are not playing any build we want to play. We play the meta build yes. Know why? Cause it deals most dmg, and still is like 1-5k behind every other class.

But i guess u arent a raider, else you would understand.

And sure im not always playing meta. Having that barrier heal in raids, sometimes saves ppls kitten. But still. We only do littly changes and there we know, we loose some dmg.

From what you said i guess you are one of these open world players. That even the tiniest thing of challenge is too much. Because you play open world and there is literally no challenge because of all the qq of ppl like you, about open world pve or story being too hard.

Sure i understand that ele has more dmg than necro. But a difference of 20k on big target seems way too over the top. In burst ele can even do double the necro dps.

Sorry. But its really bad design, to have a charakter only for niches. And thats, what necro is right now.

The boss spawns some adds? Well lets take a necro for epidemic, so eles can keep hitting the boss.Boss does one big attack once in a while? Lets take necro, that uses his heal, so eles kan keep hitting the boss, and doesnt have to care for dodges.

And thats, what necro mancer currently is.

A pretty bad version of bannerslave that you dont need at all encounters. Or better to say, that you dont need at any encounter cause there are way better options to take.

And i think. Every charakter should have the right to go raiding.

The only difference between you and me is that you think that somehow (I suspect from drinking the meta kool aid) you have convinced yourself necro is currently 'wrong'. I've come to realize there isn't any right or wrong, because I can see how the game is designed and the game philosophy that Anet has used, is using and continues to use.

I will disagree you can't raid with a Necro ... that's just a function of who you decide to raid with. The problem HERE is that you choose the meta path, so no, you don't get to raid with your necro because it's not widely accepted as meta. You have artificially dismissed it as a valid raiding class to begin with because of what you have accepted necro SHOULD be; hardly a relevant assessment. Your perspective makes little sense in a game where people ARE doing raids playing their necros. They must look at you and think "What planet is he from?" "Oh, that weird one where people follow rules that aren't needed".

You got two choices man ... play with the people that think the way you do .... or have someone tell you how to play so you can play with the people telling you how to play. Player-made problems require player-made solutions. If you buy into and prop up the player-determined meta mentality (as the wording of your posts suggest you are), letting it guide your play, you can't complain when that same concept tells you your class sucks, then point the finger at the people trying to enforce the OPPOSITE ideas in the game. That's nonsense.

There is a issue with what you say obtenna:

Just because you can do the boss, though your dps is lower, doesn't mean people won't take you.Also:Whats to stop people from saying:No necros? the game flat out encourage you to take other classes over necros, because better support better damage better healing, so why take necro right?

If you got a choice between using a old computer that works but does so slowly at work, or a new one that does more and faster, which one would you take? if both were free that is? The better one usually of course, because whats to stop you from it?

Others can do the job better, and there is nothing to stop them, unless they make every class have a niche as well that they are not so good at, that some other fills that in, or give necros a role already and buff them to be competitive in dps.

I won't argue the semantics of analogies ... we don't need them to talk about what is happening here. People choose classes for reasons and MANY of them aren't related to performance. If your concern is performance AND you want to play with PUG's, you choose a class that performance-oriented PUGS will take. Your post is just another approach to meta thinking ... "Someone does better, so why choose less than best classes?" ... well, it's simple ... because people can and people want to. The game is built for it.

@cobracommander.5861 said:Anyone who wants to role play on a subpar class in a raid is free to do so, and I will not begrudge a raid composed of like minded players who want to play the game how they want. But most high end players in mmos will not accept anything less than what is best or contributes the most for the raid, or any game mode. This thread is for those like minded individuals.

If you want to play the best, then the theme of your class is not of concern ... choices.

Choices is always a issue.Nobody likes being shoehorned down 1 path.Mesmers were concerned when condi was nerfed probably partly afraid of being forced into power.Some like power but some love condi

Some will love a specific elite spec like chrono over mirage or tempest over weaver, and seeing that elite spec nerfed will drive them to fury on the forums.

Proof of this is on everything related to reaper:Every time you see someone angry about reaper changes, that is related to loving a build because of flavor and all and wanting to keep its identity.

With the other, its about roles and wanting somewhere where we fit

IF any other class went through what we went through, such as warriors mesmers or eles, there would be a massive outcry and forums flooded and people threatening to quit the game.Its not ok for necros to not have a role and only be subjected to niche roles.WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?

Obtena.7952 · February 16, 2018

@Axl.8924 said:WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?

Well, to be fair, you aren't the only class not equal in DPS roles; unequal DPS performance isn't UNIQUE to necro, there are lots of different classes spread over a large range of damage. So let's get that straight.

Honestly, I don't think appealing to the 'unique' situation Necros are in is reasonable way of describing what is happening but if you want the most simple answer, whatever Necro is (or isn't) is based on it's theme, not on it's performance.

Nimon.7840 · February 16, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Axl.8924 said:WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?

Well, to be fair, you aren't the only class not equal in DPS roles; unequal DPS performance isn't UNIQUE to necro, there are lots of different classes spread over a large range of damage. So let's get that straight.

Honestly, I don't think appealing to the 'unique' situation Necros are in is reasonable way of describing what is happening but if you want the most simple answer, whatever Necro is (or isn't) is based on it's theme, not on it's performance.

But still. Theme and performance should fit.But it doesnt.Lets take reaper as an example:Its meant to be a slow, hardhitting class.Well some of its hits are hard. And yes it is very very slow.But other classes can do the same big hits, like 2-3 times faster. So reaper isnt hard hitting if you compare it.And you have to do that, if you want to balance a gane equally.There cant only be balance in one class, there has to be balance between the classes.

Yesterday i had a funny discussion. And we came to the solution, that the one responsible for necro balance seems to be the only one, that knows, what mathematics are. The rest is just highrolling numbers.

Agrippa.1693 · February 16, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.Ok, let my try to explain it this way: a Necro main has to choose, whereas an Ele, Mesmer or Ranger main doesn't have to!
@Obtena.7952 said:So you want Anet to change players attitudes about using optimized compositions ...I'm not sure what you mean with the 'about' in your sentence: if you mean: 'towards', then my answer is simple: NO, I don't want to. If you mean content wise; then: YES, preferably even very well balanced where all classes (let's start there) are in the optimized composition.
@Obtena.7952 said:in a game that is designed so that they aren't needed ... So tell me again what needs to change here? The game already EXISTS in a way where players don't need to burden themselves with meta-think like this. What more could you ask for?You know that you are contradicting yourself here, right? You were just saying that a part of the player base has to actively make the choice NOT to go with the meta in order to be accepted in a large part of the game. Therefore that part, and only that part of the player base (I can stay vague, but we all know I'm talking about the Necro player base here) is very much so burdened with the meta-think! It's about the same to say to a slave: don't worry about your freedom and the free world, you are not part of it anyway ...
@Obtena.7952 said:If you want to play the best, then the theme of your class is not of concern ... choices.Choices that (mostly) only Necros have to make! Most other classes can have both!

Please, is there not ONE thing that I describe above that you find slightly unfair?

Axl.8924 · February 16, 2018

You know whats funny? mesmers have like 7+ condi cleanses and 1 of them strips buffs.They are like the last class that should cry about us.They got so many condi cleanses, that they have themselves plenty of ways to get rid of it.I think scourge being able to cleanse 2 or more condis without a long cd or delay could be allowed, considering power cleanse is on 12 sec cd.

Obtena.7952 · February 16, 2018

@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Axl.8924 said:WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?

Well, to be fair, you aren't the only class not equal in DPS roles; unequal DPS performance isn't UNIQUE to necro, there are lots of different classes spread over a large range of damage. So let's get that straight.

Honestly, I don't think appealing to the 'unique' situation Necros are in is reasonable way of describing what is happening but if you want the most simple answer, whatever Necro is (or isn't) is based on it's theme, not on it's performance.

But still. Theme and performance should fit.

Why? What is the 'rule' that says this is a thing that Anet needs to follow? I haven't seen it and from what I can tell, that's simply something people make up to believe it should be true. The truth is that they don't need to fit. There is no requirement that drives theme AND performance to be available in every class for whatever build you want to imagine or even ONE build. That went out the window when Anet decided they weren't supporting holy trinity in the game.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.Ok, let my try to explain it this way: a Necro main
has
to
choose
, whereas an Ele, Mesmer or Ranger main doesn't have to!

And? That's just some more meta idealism ... if others do something, we should to? What part of "Anet doesn't balance classes according to other classes" are you not getting?

mindcircus.1506 · February 17, 2018

@Saracen.2691 said:
@Zaraki.5784 said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

It was NOT overpowered in PvE. Now it is worthless in PvE. No encouragement for this decision should be given, they should have split these changes. One day it'll be your class getting gutted and you'll wish you had thought a little more carefully about it when it was other classes.

IKf you didn't think Scourge was overpowered at launch then you were not playing/gearing it correctly.

DeadlySynz.3471 · February 17, 2018

@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Saracen.2691 said:
@"Zaraki.5784" said:Yes, it was really that over powered.

It was NOT overpowered in PvE. Now it is worthless in PvE. No encouragement for this decision should be given, they should have split these changes. One day it'll be your class getting gutted and you'll wish you had thought a little more carefully about it when it was other classes.

IKf you didn't think Scourge was overpowered at launch then you were not playing/gearing it correctly.

well they might be overpowering if over half their attacks weren't "obstructed" or were met with "immune" because of resistance.

Anet should really lay this on the rest of the classes so other players understand just how bad it is. Imagine everything a Guardian attacked at close range was met with "obstructed". Or a warrior dropping a bubble only to see a sea of "obstructed" messages. Or anytime anyone tries to blast an ele's water field was also met with "obstructed"

How about a Rev trying to drop their various hammer skills, were met with both "obstructed" and "immune" with 60% of their attacks? Or every time a Mirage tries to burst someone down, their combo is "obstructed". Every time a thief breaks stealth with an attack, it's met with "obstructed".

Again, Anet really should dump this on all the classes and just leave it for people to fester in while they wait months in between patches hoping for some sort of fix.

mindcircus.1506 · February 17, 2018

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:A bunch of off topic stuff.

This thread is not about the obstruction bug, which I agree is "off". It's about the level of condi damage the class does now, compared to pre-nerfs. I'm surprised you need this explained.

fixit.7189 · February 17, 2018

I wish PvP and PvE balance was totally seperate so I don't get nerfed in PvE every single darned patch; the delay they put on shades in PvP makes sense but in PvE? It's simply awful.

Agrippa.1693 · February 18, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.Ok, let my try to explain it this way: a Necro main
has
to
choose
, whereas an Ele, Mesmer or Ranger main doesn't have to!

"Anet doesn't balance classes according to other classes"Great, we're on the same page there, my question (ending of my post) to you still stands: Don't you think it's then slightly unfair that some of these classes (in this case Necro) are not balanced the way others are and are underperforming in a very big part of the game (the PvE endgame)? Can you understand this player base (and rightfully so) are asking for buffs or at least a different take on it all from ANet, so they are for one time not underbalanced anymore compared to other classes?Also, keeping in mind that ANet designed their game creating a bond between you and your main class from the very start of the game (much more than they did in GW1 for instance).

Obtena.7952 · February 18, 2018

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.Ok, let my try to explain it this way: a Necro main
has
to
choose
, whereas an Ele, Mesmer or Ranger main doesn't have to!

"Anet doesn't balance classes according to other classes"Great, we're on the same page there, my question (ending of my post) to you still stands: Don't you think it's then slightly unfair that some of these classes (in this case Necro) are not balanced the way others are and are underperforming in a very big part of the game (the PvE endgame)? Can you understand this player base (and rightfully so) are asking for buffs or at least a different take on it all from ANet, so they are for one time not underbalanced anymore compared to other classes?Also, keeping in mind that ANet designed their game creating a bond between you and your main class from the very start of the game (much more than they did in GW1 for instance).

Unfair? No ... only because I think the game is MORE than just a DPS meter reading. The game wasn't designed to be 'fair' in the first place, so expecting it is nonsense.Understand why performance balance is desired? Yes ... even though that's just baggage from other games people carry with them and not necessary because of how the game is designed.

Creating the bond is maintained with your class always ... you never chose your class based on performance-based criteria; you chose it for theme, looks, style.

Nimon.7840 · February 19, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Axl.8924 said:WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?

Well, to be fair, you aren't the only class not equal in DPS roles; unequal DPS performance isn't UNIQUE to necro, there are lots of different classes spread over a large range of damage. So let's get that straight.

Honestly, I don't think appealing to the 'unique' situation Necros are in is reasonable way of describing what is happening but if you want the most simple answer, whatever Necro is (or isn't) is based on it's theme, not on it's performance.

But still. Theme and performance should fit.

Why? What is the 'rule' that says this is a thing that Anet needs to follow? I haven't seen it and from what I can tell, that's simply something people make up to believe it should be true. The truth is that they don't need to fit. There is no requirement that drives theme AND performance to be available in every class for whatever build you want to imagine or even ONE build. That went out the window when Anet decided they weren't supporting holy trinity in the game.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.Ok, let my try to explain it this way: a Necro main
has
to
choose
, whereas an Ele, Mesmer or Ranger main doesn't have to!

And? That's just some more meta idealism ... if others do something, we should to? What part of "Anet doesn't balance classes according to other classes" are you not getting?

Yeah yeah. We realized it. Youre antimeta. But please. Dont always rebel against us meta boys. We just want to play the game the most effective way. Because we are having fun like that. For some ppl, its the only fun thing of this game.And playing our favourite class would be even more fun, if it was viable.

If raids and wvw wouldnt exist, i would have changed game ages ago. And i think there are many other players, that feel the same way

dceptaconroy.7928 · February 19, 2018

Nothings wrong in wanting good stuff. Mediocre is around us everywhere in life but in the fantastical universe of games we want for more. No one can say thats a bad thing, if not to strive for better we'd be plebs. Im with nimon on this im a min maxer whos run content dry so why not try and zoop up your reaper and compete with the other classes as thats well.. sorta fun for 'some',not all of us. Bo's content with things as they are mostly, good for you mate, if not for you these threads would be half their length and less tasty. If anything you help bring to light more of our concerns here than anyone.

Obtena.7952 · February 19, 2018

@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Axl.8924 said:WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?

Well, to be fair, you aren't the only class not equal in DPS roles; unequal DPS performance isn't UNIQUE to necro, there are lots of different classes spread over a large range of damage. So let's get that straight.

Honestly, I don't think appealing to the 'unique' situation Necros are in is reasonable way of describing what is happening but if you want the most simple answer, whatever Necro is (or isn't) is based on it's theme, not on it's performance.

But still. Theme and performance should fit.

Why? What is the 'rule' that says this is a thing that Anet needs to follow? I haven't seen it and from what I can tell, that's simply something people make up to believe it should be true. The truth is that they don't need to fit. There is no requirement that drives theme AND performance to be available in every class for whatever build you want to imagine or even ONE build. That went out the window when Anet decided they weren't supporting holy trinity in the game.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.Ok, let my try to explain it this way: a Necro main
has
to
choose
, whereas an Ele, Mesmer or Ranger main doesn't have to!

And? That's just some more meta idealism ... if others do something, we should to? What part of "Anet doesn't balance classes according to other classes" are you not getting?

Yeah yeah. We realized it. Youre antimeta. But please. Dont always rebel against us meta boys. We just want to play the game the most effective way. Because we are having fun like that. For some ppl, its the only fun thing of this game.And playing our favourite class would be even more fun, if it was viable.

If raids and wvw wouldnt exist, i would have changed game ages ago. And i think there are many other players, that feel the same way

OK ... and nothing stops you from doing that. I have NEVER said you can't play the game how you wish to play it. So what are you accusing me of here? I don't care if you play the meta, or anything else ... just don't try to legitimize that as the ONLY play relevant for balancing because clearly ... its not.

Nimon.7840 · February 20, 2018

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Axl.8924 said:WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?

Well, to be fair, you aren't the only class not equal in DPS roles; unequal DPS performance isn't UNIQUE to necro, there are lots of different classes spread over a large range of damage. So let's get that straight.

Honestly, I don't think appealing to the 'unique' situation Necros are in is reasonable way of describing what is happening but if you want the most simple answer, whatever Necro is (or isn't) is based on it's theme, not on it's performance.

But still. Theme and performance should fit.

Why? What is the 'rule' that says this is a thing that Anet needs to follow? I haven't seen it and from what I can tell, that's simply something people make up to believe it should be true. The truth is that they don't need to fit. There is no requirement that drives theme AND performance to be available in every class for whatever build you want to imagine or even ONE build. That went out the window when Anet decided they weren't supporting holy trinity in the game.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... that just goes to what I'm talking about ... you choose who you play with. If you choose PUGS, they want a specific kind of person ... I guess I will just say it again; you can't complain that you are trying to join pugs that play how they want ... just because you want to play how you want. You need to join groups that accept you and how you want to play.Ok, let my try to explain it this way: a Necro main
has
to
choose
, whereas an Ele, Mesmer or Ranger main doesn't have to!

And? That's just some more meta idealism ... if others do something, we should to? What part of "Anet doesn't balance classes according to other classes" are you not getting?

Yeah yeah. We realized it. Youre antimeta. But please. Dont always rebel against us meta boys. We just want to play the game the most effective way. Because we are having fun like that. For some ppl, its the only fun thing of this game.And playing our favourite class would be even more fun, if it was viable.

If raids and wvw wouldnt exist, i would have changed game ages ago. And i think there are many other players, that feel the same way

OK ... and nothing stops you from doing that. I have NEVER said you can't play the game how you wish to play it. So what are you accusing me of here? I don't care if you play the meta, or anything else ... just don't try to legitimize that as the ONLY play relevant for balancing because clearly ... its not.

I dont know whats up with you.If im playing meta build on a class, and that class cabt compete with the others. I think there should be some buffs to that class, to get it on the same level of other classes.Sure you can balance a class to be underperforming if you compare it to others. But that no balance on the whole.I think everyone should have the right to play what they want.Sure there will always be differences between the classes, and i have no problem, that other classes are doing better. But other classes do 10-20% better.And thats no fair.

If anet wants necro to be the open world pve scrub/noob class, they just have to say it. Then im switching charakters or maybe the game.

Balance would be everyone is able to raid, because they all do the same dmg. Get away from this power creep.And every class can win against another class.

But thats not possible. But that should be the goal to achieve.

And i cant play the game how i wish to play due to imbalance

Agrippa.1693 · February 20, 2018

@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Axl.8924 said:WHy should only we have this situation but every other class is equal in dps roles got a role for support?