Humanity in Guild Wars 2: A species without merits?

[draxynnic.3719]

@Castigator.3470 said:And that's before you factor in the human's unique talent for magic. Unlike the asura, who are reliant on gadgets and gizmos, the humans can practise magic like a bard practises music, you just go out and do it. So humans are capable of doing pretty much anything they set their mind to and for less cost than asura, charr, or norn would be able to. We don't know enough about the Sylvari at this point, but I guess their numbers are extemely limited due to the pale tree being the only (known) source of new sylvari.

On this note:

There's not really anything to indicate that humans are faster at learning the more basic levels of magic than other races, including asura. We see a lot of spellcasters among the Inquest and asura members of the Pact, for instance, and none of them seem reliant on gizmos beyond the spellcasting focii everyone uses. It's just that when you get to the boss-level enemies, an asura champion is likely to be in a golem and/or using some technomagical device, while a human champion is more likely to simply wield raw magical power.

There does, however, seem to be a higher rate of humans getting to the very top levels. Whether that's inherent talent, cultural, or simply a matter of numbers is ambiguous. Other races are capable of reaching similar levels, but there are less examples of it, and I don't think there's any friendly NPC of a playable race that's shown to be as powerful as Jennah.

(Mind you, we can't say for sure that Jennah pulled off her city-dome trick alone.)

Culturally, humans also have a higher focus on magic than the allied charr legions or the norn. Sylvari might actually have a higher aptitude for magic as a race, but there's less of them, and Faolain and Trahearne were probably the most powerful sylvari NPCs magically that we've seen thus far. I'd happily bet on Jennah against either of them.

[ugrakarma.9416]

another thing to remember is that humans political stuff are see a some kind of non-sense circus or entertainment by other races.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:another thing to remember is that humans political stuff are see a some kind of non-sense circus or entertainment by other races.

The flip side to that, though, is that the issues of the human political process are largely a product of their successes. When their process works, it works- they're able to field an at least semi-professional army, which is more than the norn, asura, or sylvari can say; they can do it without that army monopolizing their society's efforts, which is more than the charr can say; they have a stronger sense of racial identity and cohesion than the norn and asura, and are structured so that it can be channeled towards a single vision, like the charr do, but unlike the charr aren't so tightly bound by tradition and culture when choosing that direction. Their past political strife was largely a product of being able to control a collective territory several times the size of what any other modern race has managed (possibly excepting the asura), and their current political strife is largely a product of efforts to strengthen that racial identity, the 'human spirit', and feed it into the idea of Kryta embodying a collective whole and not just an out-of-touch elite.

[Oglaf.1074]

The Norn have a very strong “racial identity/cohesion” as a whole but the difference between them and the other races (apart from the Asura, sorta) is that they’re big on individualism to the point where it trumps their sense of collectivism unless something serious happens that affect all Norns (such as Jormag doing his thing) at which point they come together as one.

If any of the other races were to declare war on the Norns, I’m pretty sure you’d see a Norn “army” being raised in response.

[ArchGenie.1063]

(Comment deleted)

[ThatOddOne.4387]

they're doing pretty damn good for a childish species given they've done more to save the world than any of the other races.

[Oglaf.1074]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:they're doing pretty kitten good for a childish species given they've done more to save the world than any of the other races.

Well, they’ve also done more to potentially doom the world so...

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:they're doing pretty kitten good for a childish species given they've done more to save the world than any of the other races.

Well, they’ve also done more to potentially doom the world so...

Sure, but maturity can't realistically be about not making mistakes. It's about owning them and doing your best to rectify them. Humans have been, collectively, pretty good about taking responsibility for their messes.

[Ardid.7203]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:they're doing pretty kitten good for a childish species given they've done more to save the world than any of the other races.

What "more" have they done?

[draxynnic.3719]

Just about everything in GW1, although they had some help in EOTN...

[Ardid.7203]

I keep forgetting about GW1.

[Trise.2865]

Story time!

The Humans were brought to Tyria by the Gods. They were given the continent of Orr on which to live and thrive. Over the years, the powerful Humans, fueled by their magic and their Gods, spread throughout Tyria.

In the area now known as Kryta, the Humans encountered the Tengu and the Centaurs, who recognized their power. These races took a defensive stance, rebuffing the Humans, but not aggressively attacking them. More nuisance than threat, the Tengu and Centaurs developed a "live and let live" coexistance with the Krytans.

The Humans continued to push forward, into the Shiverpeak Mountains. There they encountered the Dwarves, who also recognized their power, but were divided. The Deldrimor wanted to work together with the Humans, and the Stone Summit wanted the Humans gone. But the Shiverpeaks were too inhospitable for Humans to settle, so they left in peace.

The Humans continued to push on into what is now Ascalon. There they encountered the Charr. The Charr saw the Humans as rival predators, allowing them passage, but viciously attacking any settlements. The Humans tried to negotiate a peace with the Charr, but the Charr leaders saw no benefit in cooperating with "prey" species and attacked. Then the Humans came in force, and drove out the Charr. Ascalon was built, and a Great Wall was erected to mark a border between Human and Charr territories.

For 1000 years, the Humans continued to thrive, respecting the other species' claims and territories, and halting their advances past the Great Wall. The prideful Charr never forgot their defeat at the hands of the "inferior" Humans, but were able to live peacefully without interference.

One fateful day, an Ascalonian king thought to himself, "The Charr are still a threat, but no match for us and our Gods. We should wipe them out completely and claim all of this land of Ascalon for ourselves!" The foolish king sent sorties and soldiers into Charr lands, but greatly underestimated the strength, numbers, and grudges of the Charr. The soldiers were slaughtered. These incursions enraged the Charr and their failure incensed the Human King. The fires of war reignited. The King of Ascalon called to the other kingdoms for aid, but they had become distant and mired in politics, and refused to unite in force. The Charr, fearing the Human Gods, would seek out "gods" for themselves, and begin their own conquest of Tyria.

The rest, you know.

[Narcemus.1348]

That is not 100% accurate. The creation of the stone summit was fairly recent to the time of GW1. While the dwarves and humans had known each other for a long time. Also the Centaurs and humans were at war for a long time, there is no live and let live between those two races. The humans also pushed up well past the wall. They had many city's north of the wall.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Early human history, especially on the Tyrian continent, is very vague. We do know that they displaced the races you mentioned, and maybe others, but we don't know for sure who were the aggressors, what the motivations were, or what the timeline was.

For what it's worth though- the only source that gives more than a sentence or two on the topic, while it's proven to be unreliable, does paint the humans as insatiably expansionist. I wouldn't try to present it as any kind of fact, but at the moment, the balance of probability is that the humans were at least equally responsible for the wars, if not the primary antagonizers.

[Frenzify.6832]

The only pieces of human ambient dialogue that highlights to me how shitty the human's can come across is in Queensdale, in Claypool, the area with the crafting. One is one guy talking about how the centaurs think the land belongs to them. Another is a guy (probably the same one) responding to a woman about their conflict with the centaurs, saying something along the lines of "Well, we can't fight them," and with the woman responding "Why not?"

Now, I'm not the biggest GW lore buff, but the heavy implication is that the centaurs were their first, and now that the humans have essentially conquered it, the centaurs are rightfully pissed, while the humans acting as if it's the centaurs who are the nuisance to them.

And I hear that shit a lot, since Claypool is the default place I go to for banking/crafting/and leaving my character in a place where it doesn't take a million years to load in (I'm looking at you Lion's Arch).

[Athrenn.9468]

People speak as if humans were the first one to invent the idea of conquering land. You hear the Charr spout the same propaganda time and time again about how they drove the humans out of "their" land, when in reality, how did the Charr come by that very same land? By doing as the humans did, of course! From The Ecology of the Charr:

The Charr were once a primitive people, filled with rage and a primal drive to dominate and control. They fought everything that threatened them – even one another – only surviving this brutal period by evolving into a strict hierarchical society. Disparate, fierce, and independent warbands unified under a single leader, the Khan-Ur, for the good of the race, and a golden age of Charr dominance began.

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

So, how did the centaurs come to inhabit the lands that we now know as Kryta? I say they did the same thing the Charr did: they took it by force from whichever other races were fighting for control of the territory at the time. Do the humans not have the same right to dislodge the Charr or the centaurs in the same way that these two races dislodged those who came before them? The Charr have proven just as cruel in their methods, slaughtering the people of Ascalon, burning them as live sacrifices and hounding them all the way to Ebonhawke. No less could be expected of the centaurs.

If the centaurs had their way, Krytans would all be slaves to their four-legged overlords bred in captivity and forced to build centaur cities, work the farms to feed centaur children, always toiling under the lash of those who care not for their well-being. The people of Kryta on the other hand have never been seen taking centaurs as slaves—not like the Kournans under Varesh Ossa's rule. I guarantee you, Kryta is fair and just compared to whatever law the centaurs would bring down upon humanity should they win the war.

It's easier to establish terms for peace once you're the one in control of the situation. Humanity needs the centaurs to be on their knees and suing for peace before they would get a fair deal from the situation. One that doesn't end with their children enslaved.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Tbh Kasmeer's religious zealotry bugs me.The humans were brought to Tyria by the gods and now just don't know how to deal without them. The gods -were- their major defining trait for awhile, so them leaving probably has a lot to do with their decline. > @"Athrenn.9468" said:

People speak as if humans were the first one to invent the idea of conquering land. You hear the Charr spout the same propaganda time and time again about how they drove the humans out of "their" land, when in reality, how did the Charr come by that very same land? By doing as the humans did, of course! From The Ecology of the Charr:

The Charr were once a primitive people, filled with rage and a primal drive to dominate and control. They fought everything that threatened them – even one another – only surviving this brutal period by evolving into a strict hierarchical society. Disparate, fierce, and independent warbands unified under a single leader, the Khan-Ur, for the good of the race, and a golden age of Charr dominance began.

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

So, how did the centaurs come to inhabit the lands that we now know as Kryta? I say they did the same thing the Charr did: they took it by force from whichever other races were fighting for control of the territory at the time. Do the humans not have the same right to dislodge the Charr or the centaurs in the same way that these two races dislodged those who came before them? The Charr have proven just as cruel in their methods, slaughtering the people of Ascalon, burning them as live sacrifices and hounding them all the way to Ebonhawke. No less could be expected of the centaurs.

If the centaurs had their way, Krytans would all be slaves to their four-legged overlords bred in captivity and forced to build centaur cities, work the farms to feed centaur children, always toiling under the lash of those who care not for their well-being. The people of Kryta on the other hand have never been seen taking centaurs as slaves—not like the Kournans under Varesh Ossa's rule. I guarantee you, Kryta is fair and just compared to whatever law the centaurs would bring down upon humanity should they win the war.

It's easier to establish terms for peace once you're the one in control of the situation. Humanity needs the centaurs to be on their knees and suing for peace before they would get a fair deal from the situation. One that doesn't end with their children enslaved.

A lot of that was the influence of the flame legion, every race has just as much capacity for good and evil as any other. The only race we only see the evil side of is the Krait. Remember, the white mantle does sacrifice people and the bandits participate in slave trading with centaurs. Ventari was a centaur and he was pretty virtuous too, so is the whole maguuma tribe for the most part.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Ardid.7203 said:I keep forgetting about GW1.

Don't worry, so does Anet.

[Athrenn.9468]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:@"Athrenn.9468" said:

People speak as if humans were the first one to invent the idea of conquering land. You hear the Charr spout the same propaganda time and time again about how they drove the humans out of "their" land, when in reality, how did the Charr come by that very same land? By doing as the humans did, of course! From

The Ecology of the Charr:

The Charr were once a primitive people, filled with rage and a primal drive to dominate and control. They fought everything that threatened them – even one another – only surviving this brutal period by evolving into a strict hierarchical society. Disparate, fierce, and independent warbands unified under a single leader, the Khan-Ur, for the good of the race, and a golden age of Charr dominance began.

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

So, how did the centaurs come to inhabit the lands that we now know as Kryta? I say they did the same thing the Charr did: they took it by force from whichever other races were fighting for control of the territory at the time. Do the humans not have the same right to dislodge the Charr or the centaurs in the same way that these two races dislodged those who came before them? The Charr have proven just as cruel in their methods, slaughtering the people of Ascalon, burning them as live sacrifices and hounding them all the way to Ebonhawke. No less could be expected of the centaurs.

If the centaurs had their way, Krytans would all be slaves to their four-legged overlords bred in captivity and forced to build centaur cities, work the farms to feed centaur children, always toiling under the lash of those who care not for their well-being. The people of Kryta on the other hand have never been seen taking centaurs as slaves—not like the Kournans under Varesh Ossa's rule. I guarantee you, Kryta is fair and just compared to whatever law the centaurs would bring down upon humanity should they win the war.

It's easier to establish terms for peace once you're the one in control of the situation. Humanity needs the centaurs to be on their knees and suing for peace before they would get a fair deal from the situation. One that doesn't end with their children enslaved.

A lot of that was the influence of the flame legion, every race has just as much capacity for good and evil as any other. The only race we only see the evil side of is the Krait. Remember, the white mantle does sacrifice people and the bandits participate in slave trading with centaurs. Ventari was a centaur and he was pretty virtuous too, so is the whole maguuma tribe for the most part.

I thought someone might say that, but I checked: The Ecology of the Charr specifies that this was before the Flame Legion discovered the Titans at Hrangmer and the shaman caste asserted hegemony over the rest. Yes of course, burning their captives as offerings to their new gods was a distinctly Flame Legion ritual, but the Charr have been a violent, conquering people for thousands of years and the Flame Legion alone cannot take the whole blame.

Between the years 205 and 100 BE, we know that the Khan-Ur was assassinated and his khanate divided between his four cubs. It was during the reign of the last Khan-Ur that the Charr "subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them". According to Charr oral histories, their empire was a place frought with "internal strife, reckless power-mongering, and brutal feuds" that threatened to tear them apart. They were no strangers to war or the subjugation of other species, so the human conquest of Ascalon cannot be painted as the removal of a peaceful indigenous species from their natural habitat. What was it then? I say that it was a fierce competition between two invasive species driven to expansion and conquest where the stronger of the two dominated the other and claimed the prize of Ascalon, holding on to it for over a thousand years. The Charr were no innocent victims in their dispute with the humans; they were aggressors in the very same fashion.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

"b-but flame legion..." Doesn't work as a counterpoint to the charr being conquerors and aggressors. The Legions kept up the assault on Ebonhawke after Flame Legion influence in their affairs was ended and they still made an attempt on Kryta and Orr both, which definitely weren't "ancient charr lands". If it had all been about reclaiming Ascalon then the """good""" (if the Flame Legion were the only reason behind their aggressive behaviour as using them as an excuse for it intends) charr would have objected, and rebelled earlier, no? But they did not.

Put bluntly, the charr did not rebel against the Flame Legion because they disagreed with invading human kingdoms, they rebelled because the Flame Legion was hurting them personally. They likely couldn't give a toss about what the Flame Legion did to humans, because they often did exactly the same thing.

[Vayne.8563]

I find it interesting that the OP says belief in a god or diety is somehow a weakness. In many places, having faith is considered a sign of strength at least here on Earth. But then, every single race in Guild Wars 2 has weaknesses too.

Asuran are egotistical to the point of egomania, and often blow themselves or their labs up. They have no empathy and tend to backstab each other at the slightest opportunity. Not sure how anyone finds them a superior race. Asurans also believe in the Eternal alchemy.

Norn are quick to anger and battle, which might come from consuming too much alcohol. They tend to fight first and think last, and they too have their faith in the spirits of the wild . I've certainly never viewed the Norn as a superior race. They'd have died to a man if the spirits of the wild hadn't led them away from Jormag and south to found Hoelbrak. Their stubborness and refusal to see that they couldn't win that fight led to the death of Owl one of their spirits of the wild.

Sylvari are not superior. They were created to be dragon minions and they are naive and don't know much about the world. They have, according to some Sylvari, blind belief in the principles set down by Ventari, who carved a tablet with stuff he had learned in his life. It was the first thing they saw when they awoke and they mostly believe it. That said, they are the worlds youngest race and in many ways have no practical knowledge of the world, or experience in it.

Charr actually tried out gods because not having gods weren't working for them. Charr are aggressive, but are they superior to humans? Charr laid siege to Ebonhawke for 100 years and couldn't break the cities defenses. Not sure how you call them superior. Charr are often blinded by their own sense of division, legion against legion We see plenty of it in the game.

Nope, not sure what the OP is talking about at all here.

[Oglaf.1074]

Calling the entire Norn species violent drunkards comes off as a tad bit prejudiced and bigoted to me. The Norns have plenty of actual flaws and there is no need to stoop so low as to create a strawman like that.

Their number one and most glaring flaw is their highly individualistic view of morality and ambivalence towards good and evil. They’re the only race that actually tolerates the influence of an Elder Dragon (which is highly ironic considering what Jormag has done to them) simply because of their strongly held collective belief in personal choice. Sure, individual Norns are free to oppose the Sons of Svanir if they so choose but as a whole there isn’t any direct opposition to them (as, for example the Charr do the Flame Legion). Quite the opposite with the odd duality of Jormag both as the great enemy and a proper Spirit of the Wild.

This attitude, while kind of noble and admirable, is extremely naive and foolhardy in the face of the actual threat Jormag poses and will come back and bite them (and as we see in the Norn areas, others) in the butt.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:The Norns have plenty of actual flaws and there is no need to stoop so low as to create a strawman like that.All the major races, sans humans, have a serious fundamental flaw

The Charr are so collectivist and warlike that they lack any sort of plan or cultural setup for what comes after their primary goal of "conquering everything". Their extreme militancy against everything only ensures that, once the Charr reach the point in which technology doesn't allow them to conquer any more then they already have, the Charr species is invariably doomed to turn in on itself in a never ending quest to fight something to fight.

The Norn suffer from the exact opposite problem, the sheer individualism of the Norn means they have little that can actually be called a true civilization, which really only ensures that their entire race will die off because they can't come together enough to actually get anywhere. Hell, this was the whole reason the Spirits of the Wild made them go south in the first place. The Norn were too ready to try to fight Jormag one at a time that their entire race was threatened with extinction.

The Asura's biggest problem is that while they are a race of genius inventors, their egotism drives them to hide most everything they invent from each other, resulting in their entire race progressing far slower then it actually should be. The Asrua really are a race that has lost just as much, if not more, then they have ever discovered, and this is evident by how many world events, or story missions deal with the Asura finding some ancient thing of one of their own that's far better then anything they have now because said Asrua hid it from the rest.

Humanity's only real flaw is that they aren't particularly great at anything, but this is also their greatest strength because they manage to be good at everything. While they have all the flaws of the other races, they have them to a much lesser extent, to the point they aren't as self destructive, which is why humans have been able to adapt to well to te world changing around them.

[Oglaf.1074]

I don’t think the Norn are gonna go extinct. Norn “civilization” might (if you can even call what they have a civilization, they basically have a glorified refugee camp with Hoelbrak) but the Norns in the lore are so overpowered on an individual level that I just don’t see them all dying off regardless. If Hoelbrak were to “fall” the survivors would probably just go back to the default nomadic Norn lifestyle elsewhere.

Which, coincidentally, might be the root cause of their current predicament: unlike the “lesser” races who have pretty much always had to band together for survival and as such are naturally inclined to create things like kingdoms and nations, the strong and powerful Norns never had the reason to do so but instead developed their trademark sense of individualism. They could survive as nomadic family units without much need to come together. Until recently:

Like a large and powerful herbivore who has no natural predators the Norns simply had no real response to when Jormag - something actually capable of threatening them - appeared. They just reacted by trying to use their strength to beat the threat into submission and when that really didn’t work out too well, they were totally stumped as to what to do next.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Calling the entire Norn species violent drunkards comes off as a tad bit prejudiced and bigoted to me. The Norns have plenty of actual flaws and there is no need to stoop so low as to create a strawman like that.

Their number one and most glaring flaw is their highly individualistic view of morality and ambivalence towards good and evil. They’re the only race that actually tolerates the influence of an Elder Dragon (which is highly ironic considering what Jormag has done to them) simply because of their strongly held collective belief in personal choice. Sure, individual Norns are free to oppose the Sons of Svanir if they so choose but as a whole there isn’t any direct opposition to them (as, for example the Charr do the Flame Legion). Quite the opposite with the odd duality of Jormag both as the great enemy and a proper Spirit of the Wild.

This attitude, while kind of noble and admirable, is extremely naive and foolhardy in the face of the actual threat Jormag poses and will come back and bite them (and as we see in the Norn areas, others) in the butt.

Calling the Asura all egomaniacal and lacking empathy is wrong too, we see tons of cases of them showing compassion. The superiority complex in my eyes is like the same kind that any more technologically advanced civilization has towards their less advanced peers.