How long more will Deadeyes go unchecked?

[bq pd.2148]

@Kirnale.5914 said:How do you get 3 DE's out of your keep? They rezz each other when we happen to kill one. Their stealth uptime is almost 100%. They have high mobility, high stealth, high dmg and are able to kill the lord if we don't get rid of them. Stealth trap doesn't work, they just restealth. Reveal can easily be removed. They also slot block, and not even the reaper's burst are high enough to kill one on time before they escape. Don't say something like L2p blabla, give me a solution instead. pls. And yes, they do this for longer than 10 hours a day. Any pro tips`?

it is 100% uptime, not almost. you can prevent ressurrecting, but as you are playing against me i dont think i should explain you how. i dont have a block and you often cant kill me when one of the others is down, as i have a secondary rez set so i got over 3,7k armor during rez. i also use that gear when i just want to remain stealthed/alive and dont kill anyone. i only have slotted block when i am on DD build wich i do for some bosses so they are easier to kill.

now the pro tip is simple. convince the deadeye that they are free to cap it. gank them at lord. we are usually all full berserk so it shouldnt be hard to find a thief/mesmer/engi to quickly stack a few sec stealth and gank. when one is down prevent rez till despawn and then next.what you guys are doing instead is camping inner with 15-20 people and thinking that we are going to risk our neck against that .

i am the charr one of the DEs in your keep, currently in hills on DBL and i see you :D

[bLind.6278]

Just nerf Condi thieves in WvW. I honestly dont give a fuck about being 1 shot by a 17k rifle shot from stealth, because at least that's funny.

[Kirnale.5914]

I thought u were the male (human) one from [uGLY]. Out of all, that one was the most skilled DE. Interesting, seems we need 3 gank teams to kill 3 deadeyes on the same time, otherwise you would just rezz again.

[bq pd.2148]

@Kirnale.5914 said:I thought u were the male (human) one from [uGLY]. Out of all, that one was the most skilled DE. Interesting, seems we need 3 gank teams to kill 3 deadeyes on the same time, otherwise you would just rezz again.

yup that is also one of my thieves , got many thieves. right now i am a charr. the other deadeyes play as human female /asura.while i was running human male , i was mostly solo so more focused and more careful, now i am running with a group(and as charr) to teach them solo the lords so i dont need to be careful, because they also need to learn to ressurect under preassure. the others are fairly new to deadeye or thief in general and just learning with my advise.you dont need to kill all 3 at the same time, you just need to prevent ressurecting or use the dead body as gankbait, tho as said already i use rez armor now.

apart from what we do now, i personally dont need the others to flip any structure solo. their presence just makes me get uncareful and might kill me while ressurecting ontop of somehow making you more tryhard to get me out of there. once they are able to kill the lords solo i will run more solo again as it is more efficient and less risky. i will be more carefull again and a carefull deadeye is immortal.

you need to bait a deadeye to kill him, but you cant bait a carefull deadeye. thats why i often say, you shouldnt put too much preassure in an area if you want to kill the deadeye. like 15 stacked people waiting at a lord - thats not a good deadeye bait, unless the deadeye knows you are that terrible he can still kill someone inside you.

[Kirnale.5914]

As far as I read your post, there doesnt seem to be any true counter to DE. I do think it is a problem if a class is immortal. I don't mind if they are just roaming and capping stuff, but honestly, having them inside a keep is another thing. There needs to be some sort of counter to get them. There was a phrase used by a DE streamer: "If I don't want to be killed, then you won't be able to kill me". I think it's kind of true, now double confirmed. I honestly don't think that immortality is a good choice for wvw. This is pretty much ghost thief 2.0, and actually better than ghost thief (IMO).

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Speaking as a Necro main.They are a nightmare.I have bias.But their endless stealth needs nerf.

The most broken class for zerging is complaining about the most broken class for roaming?

Ok..

Very well said : DWhat about shades spamming scrouges? They are way too OP in WvW and is now the top meta class in WvW zerg. Please fix them. Make their shade ranges to 600 and reduce their aoe radius, in WvW only. Of course.

[PearlJam.4607]

Really? Scourge complaining about deadeye because of range... So play ranger... I play d/p for roaming, should I complain about scourge? And if you are roaming with scourge then you have no right to complain.

[Aeolus.3615]

I only request 1 nerf to thief overall, Basilisk Venon...... to make it 1 hit aoe on cast, of reduce the number of targets from 5 to 1...

[bq pd.2148]

@"Kirnale.5914" said:As far as I read your post, there doesnt seem to be any true counter to DE. I do think it is a problem if a class is immortal. I don't mind if they are just roaming and capping stuff, but honestly, having them inside a keep is another thing. There needs to be some sort of counter to get them. There was a phrase used by a DE streamer: "If I don't want to be killed, then you won't be able to kill me". I think it's kind of true, now double confirmed. I honestly don't think that immortality is a good choice for wvw. This is pretty much ghost thief 2.0, and actually better than ghost thief (IMO).

a deadeye is indeed better than ghost thief as the deadeye has a way higher kill potential, when i am not like 1 vs 20 all day i do get tons of kills as deadeye while on ghost thief you did need an opponent with low condi cleanse or outright terrible one.

what exactly is it about being immortal that you got an issue with? with any class i can log in, stand in spawn all day and be immortal - i guess you wouldnt have an issue with that. as deadeye to be immortal i am not allowed to fight and ontop should wear defensive stats to avoid being oneshot in stealth. the moment i try to do anything productive, be it killing another player, an npc , a siege weapon or flipping a capture circle in that moment i lose this immortality. because i do need offensive stats/traits to kill any player/npc or a siege weapon in reasonable time and will get revealed doing so , i also need to remain visible while capturing.while i am avoiding any possible death, i am as productive as standing in spawn with any class. UNLESS my opponents try to force my death with huge numbers, then i am efficient for binding them, for keeping them busy and i demoralize them, but thats not my doing, that their own fault - they know i can avoid a conflict and want to force one without risking anything.

i do understand that you dont want to give up a keep just because you got a deadeye there, i really do. but since 1-2 month after HoT release i am doing this hiding in keeps and flipping them , was a bit tricky with anti stealth traps as daredevil tho not impossible with shadow traps. and in all that time only 4-5 times people did what i told you above :

@MUDse.7623 said:now the pro tip is simple. convince the deadeye that they are free to cap it. gank them at lord. we are usually all full berserk so it shouldnt be hard to find a thief/mesmer/engi to quickly stack a few sec stealth and gank.

just do this. gank me at lord, you dont need to spent hours with me in a keep and rage. thats way more efficient, i will waste more time than you that way and gain nothing for it. tower lords are quick like most of them ~1 minute ( southern ones on DBL take a little longer as they force me to use some defense more frequent while i can AA the others) so for them you really need to be nearby if you want to gank me. but for keep lords i do need 2-3,5 minutes on DBL keeps and 3-5 minutes(RNG respawn times + lord heals :S) on ABL keeps. with iron hide i ofc need way longer. that is plenty of time in keeps to gank me at the lord. you normally send a scout anyway when it is contested and in the time i kill the lord a group could open outer + inner and kill the lord in a paper keep wich is what i am in mostly.

[MedievalThings.5417]

I see maybe 1 deadeye a week, and even then not for more than an hour.
Scourges on the other hand. I don't see many roaming, that aren't at least plat rank. However, if you see the enemy force, like last night, the 40 man enemy force is 20+ scourges (not an exaggeration). A handful of firebrands, 1 or 2 chronos and holos, and about that many spellbreakers. LIterally, everyone seems to have shifted to where for every 10 players they field, 6-7 are scourges (various roles obviously).

I think when you look at wvw as a whole, thief, deadeye in particular, is like 1% of the problem.

[Kirnale.5914]

@MUDse.7623 said:the moment i try to do anything productive, be it killing another player, an npc , a siege weapon or flipping a capture circle in that moment i lose this immortality.And that's the issue. You decide if you live or die. This is a PVP mode. Something like this should never exist in any PVP games. It's like pressing the pause button in Dota and everyone can wait and you decide when the game is starting again. It's broken, but in a different way.

Also, your immortality is reapplied so fast that almost no one can react to. You can appear from ANY side, in a 360 degrees with a range of 1500! It's not like you go melee and one shot them.

More issue are:

1. Free scouting (better version of standard scouting). You see what our zerg is doing all the time. Be it building golem, or moving in a certain direction. Scouting in your own structures and scouting in your enemies structure are two entire different things.
2. Contesting the WP. If you want to, you can make a keep permanently contested. Same issue with ghost thief that received massive complain back then.
3. You can clear all our sieges without ever being caught. I don't think this requires much skill. Simply appearing where no one is looking=profit. Then you can just tell your zerg that it's free of sieges and they can attack.
4. It's not fun. No one wants to play against a DE. Almost all roamer avoid fighting one. DE inside a keep forces you to play against one, unless you don't care for the structure. And the strategy you suggest still requires the deadeye to appear. What if the DE plays the role of a scout? Then he will never appear, and you can wait forever.

[bq pd.2148]

@"Kirnale.5914" said:Also, your immortality is reapplied so fast that almost no one can react to. You can appear from ANY side, in a 360 degrees with a range of 1500! It's not like you go melee and one shot them.depends, against your reaper ofc not. but against some others.. from last week a melee onehit against power mes:

More issue are:

1. Free scouting (better version of standard scouting). You see what our zerg is doing all the time. Be it building golem, or moving in a certain direction. Scouting in your own structures and scouting in your enemies structure are two entire different things.sry i dont see how that is better. when i am in my structure and see your golem train approach i can fire with siege at it, use taktivators etc. when in your keep i just can say : they left the keep with golems and hope someone is doing the right thing.
2. Contesting the WP. If you want to, you can make a keep permanently contested. Same issue with ghost thief that received massive complain back then.waypoints can be contested by any class that can reach the keep in less than 3 minutes. no need for stealth at all and can even die cause who cares.
3. You can clear all our sieges without ever being caught. I don't think this requires much skill. Simply appearing where no one is looking=profit. Then you can just tell your zerg that it's free of sieges and they can attack.why would you build siege when a deadeye is inside? or how did the deadeye get inside when siege was present before?
4. It's not fun. No one wants to play against a DE. Almost all roamer avoid fighting one. DE inside a keep forces you to play against one, unless you don't care for the structure. And the strategy you suggest still requires the deadeye to appear. What if the DE plays the role of a scout? Then he will never appear, and you can wait forever.

actually very few people try to avoid fighting me, most seem quite happy about a freekill when they see me. this might change after a few encounters with me but on first sight..yes the strategy i propose is to give the deadeye a reason to appear. if the deadeye is a scout then he will never appear and the only thing he does is give out information wich you can manipulate. like leave garri with golems towards hills- arrive at bay.

[Kirnale.5914]

First off, it is a much better scouting. Why? Image you see your enemy building a bunch of golems, trying to rush a structure with massive golems. While they are building it, you tell your zerg beforehand, so they can prepare for it. Usually, golem rush is more or less something that only works when your enemy is not noticing it. Similar to starcraft 2, if you don't know what your enemy is building, you won't be able to counter it effectively. By counter you could counter rush the golems from behind, or prepare a bunch of sieges in your structure. There is so much advantage if you know it beforehand.

Yes you can contest a keep with any class. But you can do it so much easier with DE, it almost encourage you to do so.

As far as 3.) goes: Why was it open? Easy. Your zerg attacks, opens it up, and you sneak in. Is that even a question? And you don't get it. You can't build sieges when a deadeye is inside. That alone is pretty OP. A single guy preventing a structure from sieging up, that cannot be removed unless he allow you to. Balanced? no.

[reddie.5861]

@Kirnale.5914 said:How do you get 3 DE's out of your keep? They rezz each other when we happen to kill one. Their stealth uptime is almost 100%. They have high mobility, high stealth, high dmg and are able to kill the lord if we don't get rid of them. Stealth trap doesn't work, they just restealth. Reveal can easily be removed. They also slot block, and not even the reaper's burst are high enough to kill one on time before they escape. Don't say something like L2p blabla, give me a solution instead. pls. And yes, they do this for longer than 10 hours a day. Any pro tips`?

you care for your keep? just stay awake on corpseyou dont care for your keep just run away :)

id do second one but trust me u bother the thief just as much as he bothers u by staying on his buddie corpse

if u have enough people u can just put down traps yes he can restealth but no1 said to put traps so darn close to each other.you see he wants his buddy.

so if u plant 2 3 4 w/e amount of traps around him and then infront of that another bunch of traps around him at some point he will be unlucky and manage to reach his friend by stumbling over 2 trapsor u play class like ranger condi fool and put shitty traps on his buddy body

tho like i said why even bother man WvW nowadays only matter for spanish and germans the other servers on EU atleast just want fights.so unless these thiefs are from DE/SP server they are mentally set to cap this shitty keep if not they are just retarded they could have flipped 20 camps in time they try res each other rack up way more WxP and random kills on enemies.

tbh if i knock on keep i just do it for enemies to come out couldnt careless for the cap :D

[bq pd.2148]

so it helps against golems rush if you build them in that keep. again information you can manipulate.

what about deadeye do you want to change so they cant contest a WP? i mean i would be fine if i could flip that stuff without it being contested.

if my zerg made it inside, mostly there wont be much siege anymore anyways from before the attack. then use the above strategy to kill the deadeye and resiege, also that dude being on deadeye instead of something usefull for that fight might be the reason that zerg failed in the first place.you can place new siege with the deadeye inside if you expect a new attack right after, because then you will be near the siege and can kill the deadeye trying to destroy it.

but your server is very..special. you have plenty of people who will keep spamming skills around the lord for hours without seeing any sign of my presence. on one day last week i stacked in a corner, watching tv some series on second screen after each episode i went stealthed to the lords room to still see people spamming skills. they didnt even see me go inside. they saw me on cata in inner, killed a defender and when they returned wall was open so they spammed skills for more than 3 hours. ofc for this to have a lasting effect at the end of the 3 hours when a commander of my server attacked that keep (undercroft) i kicked a few of them from inner down at the supply depot into their death so they knew they were right to wait and spamm skills. havent been able to make them leave an objective since when they know i am inside. so i might try to get people looking for me and port out to attack somewhere else this week :D

[Kirnale.5914]

A possible change to address contesting is creating a better contesting in the first place, not changing a class. For keeps with a WP, it have two layers of contesting. First is that structure is getting hit by whatever(like usual) so it goes contested. That one doesn't block the WP. The second layer blocks the WP when siege damage is done to the structure.That way, you know there is someone hitting it either from inside or outside. And you can still block the WP with sieges (which is limited by supply for the sneaking deadeyes in case you have more than 1 DE).

About the manipulation: What if they never notice you being there? Desert borderland keep offers so many places to hide. And lets say you try to manipulate it (In case we know). You tell the zerg beforehand, and we change direction. The thing is, a golem rush is slow in reaching places, even with portals. You can send out scouts to see which direction they take. You have to do it in the first place, because you have more than one T3 structure, so obviously, you need to know their target. Or you can prepare sieges in both keep and bay/whatever. Still high advantages. You don't seem to know too much about golem strategies. Well, your server rarely uses them after all, as far as I know.

And yeah, it's true that our server is special. I did it on the first time to see if my reaper can kill you. After that, I leave pretty quickly, because it's so boring to chase you guys.

[bq pd.2148]

@Kirnale.5914 said:A possible change to address contesting is creating a better contesting in the first place, not changing a class. For keeps with a WP, it have two layers of contesting. First is that structure is getting hit by whatever(like usual) so it goes contested. That one doesn't block the WP. The second layer blocks the WP when siege damage is done to the structure.That way, you know there is someone hitting it either from inside or outside. And you can still block the WP with sieges (which is limited by supply for the sneaking deadeyes in case you have more than 1 DE).thats cool but again that is not deadeye exclusive, dont get why you need to mention such an issue in a deadeye threat when there is currently another about contested waypoints active.About the manipulation: What if they never notice you being there? Desert borderland keep offers so many places to hide. And lets say you try to manipulate it (In case we know). You tell the zerg beforehand, and we change direction. The thing is, a golem rush is slow in reaching places, even with portals. You can send out scouts to see which direction they take. You have to do it in the first place, because you have more than one T3 structure, so obviously, you need to know their target. Or you can prepare sieges in both keep and bay/whatever. Still high advantages. You don't seem to know too much about golem strategies. Well, your server rarely uses them after all, as far as I know.

if you dont even know that i am in there, you probably wont guard the lord so why would i try to scout there if i can just flip it?

• you dont need to build the golems in the keep, you only need the keep supplies maybe. therefor the scout doesnt even have to know what you are doing with the supply and where.
• portals are not really efficient in speeding up golems, better use your mesmers for maximum quickness uptime at the keep you want to take and move the golems with superspeed (not hard to maintain perma superspeed on a golem army) with superspeed on golems they are nearly as fast as your walking zerg.

we rarely use them if we got numbers as most of our people are bad golem drivers, but in off primetime for PvD we use them a little more frequent. just when PvD usually the 'opponents' dont see us using them :D

[Kirnale.5914]

I mentioned contesting because it's something you can do as part of a multitasking as DE inside a keep. It is everyones issue, it is a bigger issue if you can do it so easily, while you can scout, while you can still kill the lord. It's too effective to be called balanced.

On the other thing you mentioned: You can't flip it because the place is flooded with people building the golems. They will notice the contesting, and start searching everywhere. U will never have time to flip it while golems are being built.

First point is wrong. You know it. When a zerg suddenly use up so much supplies, you know they prepare a golem rush. A com would never take out so much supplies, they usually leave at least half of it and resupply elsewhere (tower for ex.).Also, superspeed part is true, but it depends on how you do the golem rush. You won't be able to supply a 40 golem rush with superspeed. On paper, it works, practically, it doesn't. You always have too many people not listen, so they won't be much of a help. And not everyone can play the class that can supply superspeed (they still need to fight inside the keep). Also, you need a high amount of golems, so you can get into the lord room before the enemy zerg arrives.

[EMTDJ.9042]

Hold up... wait a second... are scourges, the most op class in the game, complaining about someone being able to down them? Really? This is a thing? The amount of land you can cover at one time is ridiculous as a scourge and take down plenty of enemies. The last thing you should be worried about is a single target class.. just saying.

[bq pd.2148]

@Kirnale.5914 said:On the other thing you mentioned: You can't flip it because the place is flooded with people building the golems. They will notice the contesting, and start searching everywhere. U will never have time to flip it while golems are being built.

for you to come inside and build those without noticing that i am inside, i must be inside for quite a while without any notice. guess you would see open walls/gates or a marker on the map. therefor plenty of time to flip.First point is wrong. You know it. When a zerg suddenly use up so much supplies, you know they prepare a golem rush. A com would never take out so much supplies, they usually leave at least half of it and resupply elsewhere (tower for ex.).i know that our commanders usually say like 'take supplies till 600' -> supplies drop to 200. ofc you can only use many supplies for building golems. i dont need to be in your keep to see the supply drop and contesting the keep.Also, superspeed part is true, but it depends on how you do the golem rush. You won't be able to supply a 40 golem rush with superspeed. On paper, it works, practically, it doesn't. You always have too many people not listen, so they won't be much of a help. And not everyone can play the class that can supply superspeed (they still need to fight inside the keep). Also, you need a high amount of golems, so you can get into the lord room before the enemy zerg arrives.

superspeed is easier with people not listening than portals imo as there will allways be golems not taking the portals, 40 people in a golem is already going to kill you in a zerg fight against a zerg of similar size, so it doesnt matter if the others cant play their class.

all in all i dont really think this topic is a big issue in WvW as there are not many deadeyes of this sort, therefor i doubt anything will be done quickly about it. i can only give you the best strategy to kill such a thief. using it you might kill me with less effort but also risk losing the structure, all in all more fun for both sides - but you guys choose to stall the fight by not giving me a chance to flip but as you dont kill me and i often bind a few people , its still efficient to wait. but also exhausting and unfun for both. so you basically you guys press the pause button and choose when something is going to happen. its your keep you can come back when you die, i cant so dont expect me to risk more than you.

[Adamsdjr.1350]

A scourge complaining about balance...yikes

[Basharic.1654]

There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@"Basharic.1654" said:There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

Already quite a bit of Counterplay, the Majority of Classes have Access to Reveal Skills, WvW keeps/towers have mechanics to show on map the location of anyone even Stealthed opponents, there are Reveal Traps that can be laid accessible to everyone in WvW.... just saying, most issues boil down to L2P

[kash.9213]

@"Basharic.1654" said:There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

Pretty much anything I can do to you has a sound or giveaway to it. If I'm not being put in stealth then it has to be called something else, so you can suggest we take stealth out of the game and put something else in it's place. You'll also need elaborate on what's going to go in it's place since most stuff in this game can one or two shot me if my build is going to kill anything. Don't suggest giving yourself an obvious advantage and try to dress it up as "counter play".

[bq pd.2148]

@"Basharic.1654" said:There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

WoW has a diffrent combat system, i dont think copying parts of it into this one is a good idea. real perma stealth for example has the advantage, that you are not vulnerable in stacking the stealth effects. in gw2 the stacking process is one of the things you can use against the stealther, in WoW its other detection options.

a competent player has a reasonable chance to kill a stealth heavy player, if both engage in a fight. but you want a counter to someones ability to avoid a fight, once i attack you i will be visible and you will have a chance to kill me without randomly spamming AoE. but if i do not want to fight you, instead remain in stealth, why do you need more options to deny that?i dont have issues getting other stealthers out of stealth and killing them, because there are options to preassure their stealth stacking. just play it yourself and you will quickly realize what is preassuring you.