Is the PVP population shrinking, and if so, why?

Lordrosicky.5813 · April 20, 2018

@"Rufo.3716" said:People are sick and tired of not having their skill mean anything anymore. You have players stuck in silver that should be in plat. You have players in plat that should be in silver. And because of this RNG fest as to if you have a good enough team or not, many of the top players and streamers quit. Why play something if your skill means nothing?

The game has had no skill since the trait merge patch. Then the game became a spam feast. The best players are the ones with knowledge and not skill. By which I mean they have the knowledge to adjust their rotation vs different meta specs. Instead the game should be designed to reward skill and not knowledge. Where players can react to things in order to out play the opponent. There is very little of that now though. Many "top" players have streamed and you can see their mechanics are generally bad, they just know how to exploit the game. That is terrible game design.

The trait merge patch essentially cost anet millions of dollars.

Exedore.6320 · April 20, 2018

@"Lordrosicky.5813" said:That patch was when the game died. The original trait system was designed by a bunch of people who are top level game designers. I don't know why the current anet staff decided to undo all the work these people did. They are like a bull in a china shop and just did stuff because it would be "cool". Look at traits like the guardian meditation trait. That used to be 3 separate traits. But now you can take it all in a single trait and just use the rest of the traits to take more stuff. The literal definition of power creep. This trait patch cannot and will not ever be undone. So the game is dead from a pvp perspective. Anyone hoping for a change is crazy as they cannot undo this trait patch.The change to the trait system design (pick an entire line; one of three choices at each master slot) was good and makes sense. It allows each line to be more focused, while giving developers more control over build permutations through mutual exclusion.

Where it failed was in execution. Traits which were scattered in the old system were often not re-organized. Trait lines didn't gain clear focus, especially when it comes to playstyle (melee damage, support, etc). Mutual exclusion wasn't employed well to make interesting choices (there's usually one clear winner). Worst of all, developers didn't account for the power increase from both having more traits (18 vs. 14) and from consolidating many of old traits.

Exedore.6320 · April 20, 2018

@"Lordrosicky.5813" said:They removed all the tanky amulets, such as sentinal, purely for their failed esports. They should add them back and pvp would instantly become more enjoyable for most people.LOL, that's a double "no". Tanky amulets were removed because elite specs had huge amounts of power creep in their defensive abilities. It was bad for everyone, not just the top players. The elite spec power creep problem isn't solved either; returning these amulets would return the same problem that caused the removal of these amulets. Cleric firebrand or rabid scourge anyone?

sephiroth.4217 · April 20, 2018

@Exedore.6320 said:
@"Lordrosicky.5813" said:They removed all the tanky amulets, such as sentinal, purely for their failed esports. They should add them back and pvp would instantly become more enjoyable for most people.LOL, that's a double "no". Tanky amulets were removed because elite specs had huge amounts of power creep in their defensive abilities. It was bad for everyone, not just the top players. The elite spec power creep problem isn't solved either; returning these amulets would return the same problem that caused the removal of these amulets. Cleric firebrand or rabid scourge anyone?

The thought of sentinel druid was bad enough

zoopop.5630 · April 20, 2018

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@OriOri.8724 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:I blame lack of team queue...
It's mathematical:Solo queue / Duo queue system: Max players brought into Mists = 2Team queue: Max players brought into the mists = 5
Situations: 1 player wants to PvP with his friends, can only invite one person to play with and that person must be similar or higher skill level to reduce the risk of losing.
With Team Queue: 1 player wants to play PvP with his friends, he asks in guild chat if anyone wants to join. He gets 4 other people to queue with him, 2 people have never played PvP before but they really enjoyed playing it with their friends and continue to come back and ask guild chat to join in.... Cycle repeats itself.1 player brings in 4, 2 stay and do the same, then we have 10+ players from 1 guild populating the mists.
____
\
If only Team que could work the same as our current Duo que, stop team games at 1600 so people can still chase their ego while the rest of us can play with our friends in a MMO.

Lol

Some people love to blame the removal of 5 man ranked play as the reason for PvP dying, yet ANet told us that it was the

vast minority

of people that queued up in 5 man teams back when that was an option. You're free to not believe them if you want, but they have the data to back up their statements, and yall don't, so I know who I believe on the matter

lolsome people don't have the comprehensive skills to understand cause and effect.

I don't argue with math or history.The math is there, and history has shown us it did effect the pvp population a lot. (which is a no brainer due to the math side of it)

I believe Anet too that people who team queued were in the minority but let me go into detail as to why it was still a bad choice, using math because math doesn't lie.

Even if it was a small percentage (or minority) it would still be better than nothing because a percentage/minority is just that, a portion of a whole so a small percentage/minority of 10,000 players is still over 1000... So for the sake of the point, losing team queue meant losing 1000 players.

If you're into cause and effect like I am, you would know that's the start of the downfall.... Population dropped greatly then the match making stops working properly which causes more people to leave and so the butterfly effect keeps on going.

__

Then there's also personal experience

, watching PvP guilds dismember because they couldn't play together anymore, moved onto other games where they could. I still play with some of them, mostly in casual games like Left 4 Dead though.Only reason I got into PvP was because my guild used to post in guild chat "who wants to make a team"... Meaning the only reason I ever entered the mists to begin with, was because of team queue.Is there any such thing as PvP focused guilds anymore? Neeeerp.

I see no reason not to implement 5 man queues up until 1600 rating, it's an overall healthy decision for the game and the only reason to be against that is to protect your solo queue

~~ego~~

rating or because you don't have anyone to queue with and feel it should be that way for everyone else too.

Reason I blame team queue: I'm back tracking to the source. Fixing team queue would repopulate the mists over a few months, the match making would fix itself, players would be less toxic and so on, one little change could fix several things in one hit. Sort of like killing 7 birds with 1 bullet.

I don't expect you or many others to comprehend this, this isn't something that can be taught. You either get it, or you don't.And before I get the response "so you think team queue would fix everything"..... No I don't, there are other issues but my response is directly aimed at

@Crab Fear.1624 said:
lack of team play in ranked

I would love to hear some of your thoughts on how to fix population issues, you have a knack of picking apart peoples responses without contributing yourself.

+5

This guy gets it and understand. You don't even see pvp guilds like that anymore and it’s a damn good reason why a majority of the player base are god awful, and we wonder why the SAME team in NA always wins At’s And Monthly with NO issues at all. We can’t expect to beat a team that’s been playing with one another For YEARS and randomly find Pugs to compete against them after a week of playing with each other. A little of track but that’s also a reason why no cares about teams or pvp guilds gotta reward players for wanting to make a team....

Razor.6392 · April 20, 2018

Logged in just to say that I have not played pvp or gw2 since around mid march. Game sucks. Balance sucks. It's not fun and it will never be again.

choovanski.5462 · April 20, 2018

@sephiroth.4217 is on the ball. we've had multiple people in this thread (myself included) state that the loss of team queue resulted in a whole guild leaving the game. already that's well over 100 people, assuming the other guilds were a similar size to mine (40+ members).

so assuming that the people in his thread are not the only people who've had their whole PvP guild quit/disband, then the loss of team queue has had a massive impact. I'm talking in the thousands.

not to mention all the potential players lost. because as we all know PvP guilds bring more players into PvP, either from other gamemodes or from outside gw2.

the solo queue player only brings new players if they stream, and such a small percentage does. most just play alone and behave in a toxic antisocial manner, hardly helpful for the growth of the community.

so one can easily see that the loss of team queue has not just lost anet existing players, it's also lost them many potential players too. it was a very foolish and short sighted move.

FyzE.3472 · April 20, 2018

@Crab Fear.1624 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Crab Fear.1624 said:
lack of team play in ranked

I would love to hear some of your thoughts on how to fix population issues, you have a knack of picking apart peoples responses without contributing yourself.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

Some of the reasons I have seen

others

say made them leave PVP are:

My perception of the "shrinking population" issue is being processed by my skritt sized brain. So I decided an issue of this caliber probably needs to be attacked by the whole community rather than just my view, and so I asked about others feelings. You have made compelling arguments from your standpoint. Also I enjoy how you format your post as you respond to people; it makes it easier to read for me.

I will defend my main class without fail even if I am utterly wrong, because sometimes I am not.

Edit: How would I address PVP population? (lets just assume any of these are possible):

actively engage the community even more, constantly acknowledging feedback in some way
fix issues with a large consensus of importance
offer more frequent tournaments, or introduce a tournament league with a leader board
as I fix issues, create content to show off the game mode and stream as well

"Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... " © Get Rich or Die Tryin'

Math.5123 · April 20, 2018

@Exedore.6320 said:
@"Lordrosicky.5813" said:They removed all the tanky amulets, such as sentinal, purely for their failed esports. They should add them back and pvp would instantly become more enjoyable for most people.LOL, that's a double "no". Tanky amulets were removed because elite specs had huge amounts of power creep in their defensive abilities. It was bad for everyone, not just the top players. The elite spec power creep problem isn't solved either; returning these amulets would return the same problem that caused the removal of these amulets. Cleric firebrand or rabid scourge anyone?

Minstrel Firebrand* good times

Nova.3817 · April 20, 2018

@choovanski.5462 said:@sephiroth.4217 is on the ball. we've had multiple people in this thread (myself included) state that the loss of team queue resulted in a whole guild leaving the game. already that's well over 100 people, assuming the other guilds were a similar size to mine (40+ members).
so assuming that the people in his thread are not the only people who've had their whole PvP guild quit/disband, then the loss of team queue has had a massive impact. I'm talking in the thousands.
not to mention all the potential players lost. because as we all know PvP guilds bring more players into PvP, either from other gamemodes or from outside gw2.
the solo queue player only brings new players if they stream, and such a small percentage does. most just play alone and behave in a toxic antisocial manner, hardly helpful for the growth of the community.
so one can easily see that the loss of team queue has not just lost anet existing players, it's also lost them many potential players too. it was a very foolish and short sighted move.

I actually ran a guild over 200 daily members strong running multiple teams (TNE for those that remember us we spammed recruit msgs in mists for years!) been active since launch the patch to remove team que single handly killed the guild...AND i know for a fact 99% of the players no longer play gw2.

My personal opinion is gw2 lost its Identity all in the hopes to be a competitive Esports game...and killed the casual fun of the game i DONT fault them for trying to pursue that. However, i can tell you i used to constantly Pm people on fb/discord/TS to get on so we could play as a team together and that doesn't happen anymore (well it does just for other games lol) Even tho yes i did Solo a good bit i was just training so i could outshine my friends when we were playing together later that afternoon. Teamplay was always the driving force for me in gw2.

choovanski.5462 · April 20, 2018

@"Nova.3817" im sorry for your loss, but see- case in point. removing team queue caused a mass exodus. we have hit 300+ people in this thread alone.

=======

now, here’s something fun to think about:

the solo queue poll was absolutely inane.

why? because those who voted for solo queue were doing so based on a belief that arena net knew to be false. that premades farmed PUGs in ranked, when in reality (as anet revealed to us) premades actually lost more than they won when facing non-premades.

so people were voting with the intention of fixing an issue that only existed in their minds. which is not something arenanet should have entertained, because as one could plainly see, removing team play in a team game is going to have a negative effect on the population. it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that people who like to play multiplayer games together, like to play multiplayer games together. so making your game into something they no longer want to play, is going to result in them no longer playing your game. so a population decline was to be expected.

the result of the poll was a lose lose for everyone. it resulted in a huge playerbase decline (something that continues to this day), & a vast decrease in match quality (due to lower pop, & the fact that many people who play on teams are more adept at teamplay tactics than the average solo player), plus it killed all the pvp guilds which were very important for community quality. sure, the deluded solo queuer will claim that match quality went up because they were no longer being farmed by premades, but since this wasn’t happening there was actually no improvement in actual game quality (in fact, i would argue it’s become much worse).

sure, now the solo queue player will argue it’s better now because they don’t lose to premades, but they are still just as salty. it’s just that now they complain about bad matchmaking & a small, declining population (symptoms of removing team queue). so they are no happier than before. i would even argue that there in a much worse place because low pop, is causing big matchmaking issues which are real, whereas the premades farming solos was a fiction used to excuse lost games & prop up their fragile egos.

the move to solo queue was a loss for everyone involved, both devs & players- & arenanet should have known this would be the case.

i just cant fathom why they did the vote- why, as a dev you would let your community vote to change a huge element of your game, when you know the vast majority are voting based on false beliefs (that premades were farming, & solo queue would improve match quality). it just doesn’t make any sense. why would you let people vote on something when you know they are wrong? especially when you know it’s going to result in population decline.

http://78.media.tumblr.com/eb3bb9fc75184636a1671ee8601b2c77/tumblr_ml1y81REZo1rjs174o1_250.gif

Lyger.5429 · April 20, 2018

Ending up with about the same 10 people every match. I'm losing stamina as I've endured for 11 seasons but I'm at my breaking point.

Not really having fun anymore and with Anet and the community constantly nerfing thief, it is being outperformed by every other class. Once I hit 20k ap in about 3 days I'm done for probably a long while.

Having fun in Paladins though, so there's that.

Allarius.5670 · April 20, 2018

@choovanski.5462

I thought the problem wasn't for most players, but it was a problem for players at the top tier. At that level, organized teams were able to blow competition out of the water. You would see this on streams, where esports/former esports players would assemble their team to conquer the queue without any real competition. It forced players at the upper level to wait for their team or relegate themselves to a lower rank.

Now? I'm not sure any of that would matter considering common perception is that ranked has no value and is meaningless outside of reward farming.

Anywho, I could totally be remembering it wrong.

I'm also disappointed that surveys always seem accompanied by a total lack of full and complete explanation/education on the voting matter.

Arheundel.6451 · April 20, 2018

@choovanski.5462 said:@"Nova.3817" im sorry for your loss, but see- case in point. removing team queue caused a mass exodus. we have hit 300+ people in this thread alone.
=======
now, here’s something fun to think about:
the solo queue poll was absolutely inane.
why? because those who voted for solo queue were doing so based on a belief that arena net knew to be false. that premades farmed PUGs in ranked, when in reality (as anet revealed to us) premades actually lost more than they won when facing non-premades.
so people were voting with the intention of fixing an issue that only existed in their minds. which is not something arenanet should have entertained, because as one could plainly see, removing team play in a team game is going to have a negative effect on the population. it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that people who like to play multiplayer games together, like to play multiplayer games together. so making your game into something they no longer want to play, is going to result in them no longer playing your game. so a population decline was to be expected.
the result of the poll was a lose lose for everyone. it resulted in a huge playerbase decline (something that continues to this day), & a vast decrease in match quality (due to lower pop, & the fact that many people who play on teams are more adept at teamplay tactics than the average solo player), plus it killed all the pvp guilds which were very important for community quality. sure, the deluded solo queuer will claim that match quality went up because they were no longer being farmed by premades, but since this wasn’t happening there was actually no improvement in actual game quality (in fact, i would argue it’s become much worse).
sure, now the solo queue player will argue it’s better now because they don’t lose to premades, but they are still just as salty. it’s just that now they complain about bad matchmaking & a small, declining population (symptoms of removing team queue). so they are no happier than before. i would even argue that there in a much worse place because low pop, is causing big matchmaking issues which are real, whereas the premades farming solos was a fiction used to excuse lost games & prop up their fragile egos.
the move to solo queue was a loss for everyone involved, both devs & players- & arenanet should have known this would be the case.
i just cant fathom why they did the vote- why, as a dev you would let your community vote to change a huge element of your game, when you know the vast majority are voting based on false beliefs (that premades were farming, & solo queue would improve match quality). it just doesn’t make any sense. why would you let people vote on something when you know they are wrong? especially when you know it’s going to result in population decline.
http://78.media.tumblr.com/eb3bb9fc75184636a1671ee8601b2c77/tumblr_ml1y81REZo1rjs174o1_250.gif

Because premade must fight other premade! Nobody cares about the winning ratio of the premades.....it's simply unfair to reach victory when playing with friends on voice chat while facing a bunch of randoms put together by a squabbling matchmaker based on the highest MMR player.

You want premades to avoid the discomfort of playing with random player...but you're happy for others feeling that discomfort....real sportmanship ladies and gentlemen

pah.4931 · April 20, 2018

Game design by popular vote is the dumbest thing in the world. Just throwing that out there.

ReaverKane.7598 · April 20, 2018

Yeah, haven't played PvP at all in the last two seasons, and i drastically reduced my play after teams were removed.I like PvP games, but i never enjoyed pvp (unless it's something like WvW, FvF or GvG) in MMORPGs, GW2 was the first MMORPG where i actually enjoyed "formal" pvp, and mostly it was playing as a team, especially after they added Guild team leaderboards, which they now removed.That poll, and those decisions, completely undid what was (in my opinion) the best thing they had done for PvP in years. And the results are still showing.

Nova.3817 · April 20, 2018

@Arheundel.6451 said:
@choovanski.5462 said:@"Nova.3817" im sorry for your loss, but see- case in point. removing team queue caused a mass exodus. we have hit 300+ people in this thread alone.
=======
now, here’s something fun to think about:
the solo queue poll was absolutely inane.
why? because those who voted for solo queue were doing so based on a belief that arena net knew to be false. that premades farmed PUGs in ranked, when in reality (as anet revealed to us) premades actually lost more than they won when facing non-premades.
so people were voting with the intention of fixing an issue that only existed in their minds. which is not something arenanet should have entertained, because as one could plainly see, removing team play in a team game is going to have a negative effect on the population. it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that people who like to play multiplayer games together, like to play multiplayer games together. so making your game into something they no longer want to play, is going to result in them no longer playing your game. so a population decline was to be expected.
the result of the poll was a lose lose for everyone. it resulted in a huge playerbase decline (something that continues to this day), & a vast decrease in match quality (due to lower pop, & the fact that many people who play on teams are more adept at teamplay tactics than the average solo player), plus it killed all the pvp guilds which were very important for community quality. sure, the deluded solo queuer will claim that match quality went up because they were no longer being farmed by premades, but since this wasn’t happening there was actually no improvement in actual game quality (in fact, i would argue it’s become much worse).
sure, now the solo queue player will argue it’s better now because they don’t lose to premades, but they are still just as salty. it’s just that now they complain about bad matchmaking & a small, declining population (symptoms of removing team queue). so they are no happier than before. i would even argue that there in a much worse place because low pop, is causing big matchmaking issues which are real, whereas the premades farming solos was a fiction used to excuse lost games & prop up their fragile egos.
the move to solo queue was a loss for everyone involved, both devs & players- & arenanet should have known this would be the case.
i just cant fathom why they did the vote- why, as a dev you would let your community vote to change a huge element of your game, when you know the vast majority are voting based on false beliefs (that premades were farming, & solo queue would improve match quality). it just doesn’t make any sense. why would you let people vote on something when you know they are wrong? especially when you know it’s going to result in population decline.
http://78.media.tumblr.com/eb3bb9fc75184636a1671ee8601b2c77/tumblr_ml1y81REZo1rjs174o1_250.gif

Because premade must fight other premade! Nobody cares about the winning ratio of the premades.....it's simply unfair to reach victory when playing with friends on voice chat while facing a bunch of randoms put together by a squabbling matchmaker based on the highest MMR player.

You want premades to avoid the discomfort of playing with random player...but you're happy for others feeling that discomfort....real sportmanship ladies and gentlemen

I don't think he is saying that it is "fair" i think he is saying the reason the population is dwindling is because players returned to spvp on a daily basis to play with friends that no longer exists and so therefore the population is in decline i think the argument is when given the choice between 2 evils gw2 chose the wrong one bc the negative effects were worse.....at the end of the day the solo player who felt jaded that he couldn't win vs a premade could make a premade of his own and guess what that brought more players to spvp...which would bring more and more......that's his argument not that it was competitive gw2 failed as a competitive outlet. my .02

choovanski.5462 · April 20, 2018

@Allarius.5670 said:
@choovanski.5462

I thought the problem wasn't for most players, but it was a problem for players at the top tier. At that level, organized teams were able to blow competition out of the water. You would see this on streams, where esports/former esports players would assemble their team to conquer the queue without any real competition. It forced players at the upper level to wait for their team or relegate themselves to a lower rank.

Now? I'm not sure any of that would matter considering common perception is that ranked has no value and is meaningless outside of reward farming.

Anywho, I could totally be remembering it wrong.

I'm also disappointed that surveys always seem accompanied by a total lack of full and complete explanation/education on the voting matter.

yeah, i get you with the top players- but as you pointed out population issues following the removal of team queue have made rank relatively meaningless.

however, i’d like to point out that when we had team queue the top of the leaderboards were the ESL/pro league players- who were also at the top after team queue (well those that remained were). so it was the same group of players at the top, well excluding all the wintrading (which came about due to the removal of team queue). its the same ex-pros at the top, just most of them have quit so there’s only a few left.

furthermore isn’t it actually good, that at the top of the ladder people are being encouraged to form teams? surely this would result in more teams for tournaments, & an overall healthier scene? i feel like more teamplay is a good thing in a team based mode. playing together & practising synergies can also result in higher skilled play too, which i think is the sort of behaviour we want to see in this game.

still, even if you think it’s bad for the top players- i would argue that ‘improving’ their matchmaking experience isn’t worth the loss of population. i would even go so far to say that the match quality with our current population is even worse than it was when premades were around. i mean, is facing a team worse than having a gold on your team when you’re plat 3? i wouldn’t think so. oh, & do remember that you were actually able to form your own team to combat facing teams, whereas no option to escape the current matchmaker issues exists.

one may argue the experience is better now, but i would of course wonder then, why so many top level players have quit? mayhap it’s balance, mayhap matchmaking- but i suspect its a combination of both. which suggests that the matchmaking quality has declined even at the top level (something many high rated players are keen to confirm).

still, i don’t think that the move to solo queue was motivated by those at the top, no- & not only because they don’t have the numbers to win the poll. i believe that it was the average solo queue player attributing their losses to facing premades, which is something that was often complained about. i saw many players accusing teams of being premades when they weren’t, it was a common paranoia.

there was a false belief that premades were unbeatable, & just could farm ranks. when in reality many teams both myself & my guildmates encountered & formed consisted mostly of guildmates & friends, & were often not incredibly strong. as many know, beating premades was not as big of an issue as people perceived it to be. this is further supported by the fact premades actually lost more than they won when facing non premades (if you accept that premades at the top of the ladder won a disproportionate amount, then it must follow that those teams at lower rungs of the ladder must have lost at even higher rates to result in premades statistically losing more than they won).

furthermore there are other ways to look at solving this ‘issue’ that don’t result in all the pvp guilds quitting & a population downwards spiral. because i wouldn’t consider that as ‘solving the issue’. far from it.

i wouldn’t call a change that resulted in thousands of players quitting, that consequently resulted in severe matchmaking issues due to low population anything close to a fix. i would use two words to describe it, one starts with f & the other is up.

as far as the quality of the survey goes, yes a complete explanation would been helpful. more facts would have been helpful too. not lying & saying this was a test survey, & that were would be at least one more following it would have been helpful too. all in all, it could have been handled better on almost every level.

====

@Arheundel.6451 you’re going to have to do better than “you’re wrong bad sportsmanship” if you actually want a proper reply. better luck next time

edit: @Nova.3817 has understood my point perfectly well. thanks my dude

Marxx.5021 · April 20, 2018

Pvp population just reflects how much anet is willing to invest into that game mode.

Arheundel.6451 · April 20, 2018

@choovanski.5462 said:
@Allarius.5670 said:
@choovanski.5462