Oh Hey Mesmer Nerfs

[apharma.3741]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.Illusionary defence was always a bad idea, would have preferred it to be something different, we don’t need more stacking damage reduction on any class.Fairly boring nerfs to skills people will never use anymore.

Please post nerf condi mes stuff below.

1 sec just means you need to actually time it properly now. For instance you see incoming cc attack, you can either dodge/block it or shatter for stability and save your dodges/blocks for high damage non cc skills. Also it is still plenty to secure a stomp instead of having to blow a longer cd like distortion.

Stab is meant to be used preventatively to allow for actions to not be interrupted, 1s is basically useless, they should just remove it at this point.

[Solori.6025]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

Yeah I thought the same thing. I'd rather staff had gotten condensed for the sake of removing clutter. I don't think it really needed the nerf while torch definitely needs a trim.

Remember when I told you it would it would just be number tweaks and Anet wouldn't touch clone generation?

[bravan.3876]

No that i hate these (hopefully now dead chronobunker phantasm spammer) too but it is funny that core guards rly think their build need any more skill than that. I would say even less.

[Ansau.7326]

@allias.1420 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@"zoopop.5630" said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

But nerfing a single skill does nothing to mirage damage output, and yet in the process you "kill" a phantasm that can be used by all mesmers and all builds. And that is without considering mirage damage overwhelm comes mainly from condis and not direct damage...

This nerf is just another prove on how much anet can go deep into the stupidity, they're mastering again the "Purity of purpose" logic.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@"zoopop.5630" said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

But nerfing a single skill does nothing to mirage damage output, and yet in the process you "kill" a phantasm that can be used by all mesmers and all builds. And that is without considering mirage damage overwhelm comes mainly from condis and not direct damage...

This nerf is just another prove on how much anet can go deep into the stupidity, they're mastering again the "Purity of purpose" logic.

Warlock had crappy damage before the rework and mesmer staff was still top tier. We'll be fine.

[Huskyboy.1053]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:These are more or less okay.

The stability nerf is a bit harsh, but I get why they did it. 2 seconds would have been better but I’m guessing they didn’t want it being stacked.

I don’t really agree with such a huge nerf to staff phantasms as this means it’ll only ever function on a high sustain build, and will hit like a wet noodle after chronophantasma. But maybe now players will have enough time to learn to read.

Disenchanter I’m hoping stays PvP only because at a 50% nerf (1.0 to 0.5 coefficient?) will make power struggle even more to find a place in PvE.

Everything else is fine...

Problem is players are going to go even more into condi to make up the damage loss on sustain builds now, which was already overtumed and should have been shaved first.

But hey less stability and a lot of phantasm nerfs... Before Condi can people please stop complaining about Mesmer now?

And that is exactly how it should be, a build that can facetank so much should hit like a wet noodle. Now bring all other brainless bruiser builds to that lvl and ppl have to play builds again that can die when get hit when they wanna see high dmg numbers. Discharge Holo is a good example of way to much sustain for a build that can oneshot out of stealth and a lot of the sustain is not even active defense, They can just facetank a lot during bring on high aoe pressure and a lot of cc. While crying about a pure glass power shatter mesmer (chrono/mirage) what has nothing passive and need high skill (aside from oneshotting brain-afk ppl out of stealth ofc) is just cringe. Remove the stunbreak on dodge completely already and WHEN all bruiser have less sustain nerf superiority complex and maybe torch 5 (mostly the condi part but not only).

What build are you playing that holos are oneshotting you out of stealth? Just after release Holo damage was insane, but nowadays Photon Forge skills have pretty reasonable damage values. If you want a good example of oneshot out of stealth, zerk mirage shatter mesmer is much better. Some deadeye builds also fit that description.

[Simonoly.4352]

1 second of stability on Bountiful Disillusionment is a bit pointless. Might as well change that to something else now.

Phantasmal Warlock nerf is a bit weird. I don't think that damage from that was particularly offensive.

Other nerfs are fine. Would have preferred functionality changes over a simple 50% damage cut, but I guess this is easier.

[apharma.3741]

@bravan.3876 said:No that i hate these (hopefully now dead chronobunker phantasm spammer) too but it is funny that core guards rly think their build need any more skill than that. I would say even less.

Careful now, you might get purging flames on you for mentioning that!

[bravan.3876]

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:These are more or less okay.

The stability nerf is a bit harsh, but I get why they did it. 2 seconds would have been better but I’m guessing they didn’t want it being stacked.

I don’t really agree with such a huge nerf to staff phantasms as this means it’ll only ever function on a high sustain build, and will hit like a wet noodle after chronophantasma. But maybe now players will have enough time to learn to read.

Disenchanter I’m hoping stays PvP only because at a 50% nerf (1.0 to 0.5 coefficient?) will make power struggle even more to find a place in PvE.

Everything else is fine...

Problem is players are going to go even more into condi to make up the damage loss on sustain builds now, which was already overtumed and should have been shaved first.

But hey less stability and a lot of phantasm nerfs... Before Condi can people please stop complaining about Mesmer now?

And that is exactly how it should be, a build that can facetank so much should hit like a wet noodle. Now bring all other brainless bruiser builds to that lvl and ppl have to play builds again that can die when get hit when they wanna see high dmg numbers. Discharge Holo is a good example of way to much sustain for a build that can oneshot out of stealth and a lot of the sustain is not even active defense, They can just facetank a lot during bring on high aoe pressure and a lot of cc. While crying about a pure glass power shatter mesmer (chrono/mirage) what has nothing passive and need high skill (aside from oneshotting brain-afk ppl out of stealth ofc) is just cringe. Remove the stunbreak on dodge completely already and WHEN all bruiser have less sustain nerf superiority complex and maybe torch 5 (mostly the condi part but not only).

What build are you playing that holos are oneshotting you out of stealth? Just after release Holo damage was insane, but nowadays Photon Forge skills have pretty reasonable damage values. If you want a good example of oneshot out of stealth, zerk mirage shatter mesmer is much better. Some deadeye builds also fit that description.

I play a lot of classes and Holo can oneshot everything that a power mes can oneshot too, for example my thief or a fresh air ele, sometimes necros and so on. Just that the Holo can still facetank with passive sustain a pure glass shatter mes can't. And don't forget that a mesmer need to equip pretty useless elite to get 5 second stealth, engi has it on the toolbelt slot with half the cooldown. Mesmer has the higher burst but engi feels like perma bursting just a little bit lower than mesmer do every 12 seconds. But i'm not complaining about the dmg, i complain about the imbalance between this dmg and his (passive) sustain.

@apharma.3741 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No that i hate these (hopefully now dead chronobunker phantasm spammer) too but it is funny that core guards rly think their build need any more skill than that. I would say even less.

Careful now, you might get purging flames on you for mentioning that!

I'm scared now xD

[Huskyboy.1053]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:These are more or less okay.

The stability nerf is a bit harsh, but I get why they did it. 2 seconds would have been better but I’m guessing they didn’t want it being stacked.

I don’t really agree with such a huge nerf to staff phantasms as this means it’ll only ever function on a high sustain build, and will hit like a wet noodle after chronophantasma. But maybe now players will have enough time to learn to read.

Disenchanter I’m hoping stays PvP only because at a 50% nerf (1.0 to 0.5 coefficient?) will make power struggle even more to find a place in PvE.

Everything else is fine...

Problem is players are going to go even more into condi to make up the damage loss on sustain builds now, which was already overtumed and should have been shaved first.

But hey less stability and a lot of phantasm nerfs... Before Condi can people please stop complaining about Mesmer now?

And that is exactly how it should be, a build that can facetank so much should hit like a wet noodle. Now bring all other brainless bruiser builds to that lvl and ppl have to play builds again that can die when get hit when they wanna see high dmg numbers. Discharge Holo is a good example of way to much sustain for a build that can oneshot out of stealth and a lot of the sustain is not even active defense, They can just facetank a lot during bring on high aoe pressure and a lot of cc. While crying about a pure glass power shatter mesmer (chrono/mirage) what has nothing passive and need high skill (aside from oneshotting brain-afk ppl out of stealth ofc) is just cringe. Remove the stunbreak on dodge completely already and WHEN all bruiser have less sustain nerf superiority complex and maybe torch 5 (mostly the condi part but not only).

What build are you playing that holos are oneshotting you out of stealth? Just after release Holo damage was insane, but nowadays Photon Forge skills have pretty reasonable damage values. If you want a good example of oneshot out of stealth, zerk mirage shatter mesmer is much better. Some deadeye builds also fit that description.

I play a lot of classes and Holo can oneshot everything that a power mes can oneshot too, for example my thief or a fresh air ele, sometimes necros and so on. Just that the Holo can still facetank with passive sustain a pure glass shatter mes can't. And don't forget that a mesmer need to equip pretty useless elite to get 5 second stealth, engi has it on the toolbelt slot with half the cooldown. Mesmer has the higher burst but engi feels like perma bursting just a little bit lower than mesmer do every 12 seconds. But i'm not complaining about the dmg, i complain about the imbalance between this dmg and his (passive) sustain.

@apharma.3741 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No that i hate these (hopefully now dead chronobunker phantasm spammer) too but it is funny that core guards rly think their build need any more skill than that. I would say even less.

Careful now, you might get purging flames on you for mentioning that!

I'm scared now xD

A DPS class that can "oneshot" (still waiting for you to name a specific build or a specific skill chain) another glassy DPS spec is not a problem. That's the price of being glassy. You named two specs which are much glassier than holo, but also which can teleport and have high-impact instacast skills, a luxury which engineer does not have.

Also I play power shatter mirage, I don't use Mass Invisibility, I play zerk GS sword/torch. Sometimes I'll stealth from far away, use blink and Jaunt to get close enough, and oneshot. There's literally no way for Holo to apply as much damage as shatter Mirage as fast as Mirage can. Holo has nowhere near the number of instacasts that Mirage does which is why it's not generally considered to be as cancerous. And that's not to mention how much more disengage Mirage (Portal, Blink, Jaunt, Mirage Thrust) and thief (high stealth access, sword 2, shortbow, Shadowstep) have compared to Holo. I left out some of their other disengage skills but you get the drift.

[Imperadordf.2687]

Are you folks ready for the next "Feedback About the State of Condi Mirage" megathread?

[sephiroth.4217]

@allias.1420 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

Staff isn't tied into Mirage but ok.

I do like this logic: Next patch note:

• We felt Spellbreaker had too much movement, so we removed Greatsword from Warrior.

[mortrialus.3062]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

Staff isn't tied into Mirage but ok.

I do like this logic: Next patch note:

• We felt Spellbreaker had too much movement, so we removed Greatsword from Warrior.

The thing is staff has historically been a weapon with miserable damage with a slight condi edge that's run for it's defensive capabilities and utility.

It's really far more like if warrior's shield bash got buffed into a 5k crit. Like that wouldn't make or break spellbreaker, but it would be weird.

[Sinful.2165]

@BEAR.8216 said:I am not a person that posts on forums, but I feel the need to vent. Regardless of the actual skill/spec nerf, it seems that every time I log in you are nerfing the mesmer... what, too many thieves, rangers or holo's complained that only they, as Anet favorites, should be allowed to have a one-hit combo? Seriously, the 4-6k dmg from ranger skill 1 spam needs to be fixed, the 18-20k backstab, almost everything on a holo is OP...but you won't because you all love your rangers, thieves and holos and you seem to hate the mesmer. Why not just remove it completely? Exchange it for another no-skill spam 1 class? ... You are so lost on what you want it to be from it's original design. People complain about mesmers yet it takes a ton of skill to play one well, especially in wvw or pvp. And I'm not talking about the hide and strike weeny players, I'm talking about the true skill players out there and those who are trying to be. You are forcing us to into your idea of a mesmer or even on to a different class. Seems you are way out of touch with what the players want. Said my piece and I will not say more. I'm sure I'll get some nice toxic feedback from all the players who think I'm dis'ing them on thief, ranger or holo; this has nothing to do with you as a player. it is class mechanics I talk about.

The things they nerfed were sorely needed to achieve greater game balance. It is never fun to be on the receiving end of nerfs but let’s be real.. these changes were 100% reasonable. Mesmer has been dominating competitive game play for a long time now and for good reason - they have some pretty ridiculous and cheesy builds with no weaknesses or downsides. The classes and builds you mentioned all have weaknesses.

If you had played against these skills as any other class besides mesmer you could easily see why these changes were made.

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

Staff isn't tied into Mirage but ok.

I do like this logic: Next patch note:

• We felt Spellbreaker had too much movement, so we removed Greatsword from Warrior.

The thing is staff has historically been a weapon with miserable damage with a slight condi edge that's run for it's defensive capabilities and utility.

It's really far more like if warrior's shield bash got buffed into a 5k crit. Like that wouldn't make or break spellbreaker, but it would be weird.

Really? I guess you missed the times when the best solo dps for mesmer was to equip rabid gear, get 3 clones and auto stuff to death if doing stuff solo.

What I think you mean is that mesmer has historically had miserable damage, even then it’s closer to say sustained damage as the burst was always high. What this staff change does is actually push mesmer more and more to burst damage as there isn’t sustained damage on a weapon set that’s for sustaining the mesmer.

[Ithilwen.1529]

post deleted

[bravan.3876]

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:These are more or less okay.

The stability nerf is a bit harsh, but I get why they did it. 2 seconds would have been better but I’m guessing they didn’t want it being stacked.

I don’t really agree with such a huge nerf to staff phantasms as this means it’ll only ever function on a high sustain build, and will hit like a wet noodle after chronophantasma. But maybe now players will have enough time to learn to read.

Disenchanter I’m hoping stays PvP only because at a 50% nerf (1.0 to 0.5 coefficient?) will make power struggle even more to find a place in PvE.

Everything else is fine...

Problem is players are going to go even more into condi to make up the damage loss on sustain builds now, which was already overtumed and should have been shaved first.

But hey less stability and a lot of phantasm nerfs... Before Condi can people please stop complaining about Mesmer now?

And that is exactly how it should be, a build that can facetank so much should hit like a wet noodle. Now bring all other brainless bruiser builds to that lvl and ppl have to play builds again that can die when get hit when they wanna see high dmg numbers. Discharge Holo is a good example of way to much sustain for a build that can oneshot out of stealth and a lot of the sustain is not even active defense, They can just facetank a lot during bring on high aoe pressure and a lot of cc. While crying about a pure glass power shatter mesmer (chrono/mirage) what has nothing passive and need high skill (aside from oneshotting brain-afk ppl out of stealth ofc) is just cringe. Remove the stunbreak on dodge completely already and WHEN all bruiser have less sustain nerf superiority complex and maybe torch 5 (mostly the condi part but not only).

What build are you playing that holos are oneshotting you out of stealth? Just after release Holo damage was insane, but nowadays Photon Forge skills have pretty reasonable damage values. If you want a good example of oneshot out of stealth, zerk mirage shatter mesmer is much better. Some deadeye builds also fit that description.

I play a lot of classes and Holo can oneshot everything that a power mes can oneshot too, for example my thief or a fresh air ele, sometimes necros and so on. Just that the Holo can still facetank with passive sustain a pure glass shatter mes can't. And don't forget that a mesmer need to equip pretty useless elite to get 5 second stealth, engi has it on the toolbelt slot with half the cooldown. Mesmer has the higher burst but engi feels like perma bursting just a little bit lower than mesmer do every 12 seconds. But i'm not complaining about the dmg, i complain about the imbalance between this dmg and his (passive) sustain.

@apharma.3741 said:

@bravan.3876 said:No that i hate these (hopefully now dead chronobunker phantasm spammer) too but it is funny that core guards rly think their build need any more skill than that. I would say even less.

Careful now, you might get purging flames on you for mentioning that!

I'm scared now xD

A DPS class that can "oneshot" (still waiting for you to name a specific build or a specific skill chain) another glassy DPS spec is not a problem. That's the price of being glassy. You named two specs which are

much

glassier than holo, but also which can teleport and have high-impact instacast skills, a luxury which engineer does not have.

Also I play power shatter mirage, I don't use Mass Invisibility, I play zerk GS sword/torch. Sometimes I'll stealth from far away, use blink and Jaunt to get close enough, and oneshot. There's literally no way for Holo to apply as much damage as shatter Mirage as fast as Mirage can. Holo has nowhere near the number of instacasts that Mirage does which is why it's not generally considered to be as cancerous. And that's not to mention how much more disengage Mirage (Portal, Blink, Jaunt,

Mirage Thrust

) and thief (high stealth access, sword 2, shortbow,

Shadowstep

) have compared to Holo. I left out some of their other disengage skills but you get the drift.

Holo is not glassy that is exactly my point, it only has the dmg from a glassy build but way too much sustain for that. A bit less burst than mesmer but for that way more sustained dmg, almost like perma minibursts. And a lot of discharge toolbelt (the most important at least from the turret) is instant. Mesmer only has instant shatters, which are only instant without clones and that only melee. GS2 is not instant, it has one of the best animations, ofc you can use 3 cds (stealth+blink+jaunt) to make it less visible, still you most likely can see the mesmer coming in pvp. Better than a thief or guard using instant max range teleport from out of los, or a 5 second stealth where you cannot predict that easy the time-window the burst most likely will come. Or even a fresh air ele that doesn't need any stealth because range instant burst with way lower cds than mesmers. Yes everyone can play power mes in silver EU or in NA and oneshot some unaware ppl, that doesn't prove anything. These ppl are ez kills even with a renegate.

[mortrialus.3062]

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

Staff isn't tied into Mirage but ok.

I do like this logic: Next patch note:

• We felt Spellbreaker had too much movement, so we removed Greatsword from Warrior.

The thing is staff has historically been a weapon with miserable damage with a slight condi edge that's run for it's defensive capabilities and utility.

It's really far more like if warrior's shield bash got buffed into a 5k crit. Like that wouldn't make or break spellbreaker, but it would be weird.

Really? I guess you missed the times when the best solo dps for mesmer was to equip rabid gear, get 3 clones and auto stuff to death if doing stuff solo.

What I think you mean is that mesmer has historically had miserable damage, even then it’s closer to say sustained damage as the burst was always high. What this staff change does is actually push mesmer more and more to burst damage as there isn’t sustained damage on a weapon set that’s for sustaining the mesmer.

I suppose. I've never even heard of rabid staff dps mesmers. All the vanilla fractal and dungeon mesmers I heard of were zerks and revolved around on using focus for pulls and reflects.

[apharma.3741]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@allias.1420 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

Staff isn't tied into Mirage but ok.

I do like this logic: Next patch note:

• We felt Spellbreaker had too much movement, so we removed Greatsword from Warrior.

The thing is staff has historically been a weapon with miserable damage with a slight condi edge that's run for it's defensive capabilities and utility.

It's really far more like if warrior's shield bash got buffed into a 5k crit. Like that wouldn't make or break spellbreaker, but it would be weird.

Really? I guess you missed the times when the best solo dps for mesmer was to equip rabid gear, get 3 clones and auto stuff to death if doing stuff solo.

What I think you mean is that mesmer has historically had miserable damage, even then it’s closer to say sustained damage as the burst was always high. What this staff change does is actually push mesmer more and more to burst damage as there isn’t sustained damage on a weapon set that’s for sustaining the mesmer.

I suppose. I've never even heard of rabid staff dps mesmers. All the vanilla fractal and dungeon mesmers I heard of were zerks and revolved around on using focus for pulls and reflects.

It was for solo, even then the phantasmal warlock has always been a strong phantasm, I believe it was better than swordsman at 5 or 7 conditions being on the enemy but staff had very poor damage outside of the warlock which is why it wasn’t used very much.

[Huskyboy.1053]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

And that is exactly how it should be, a build that can facetank so much should hit like a wet noodle. Now bring all other brainless bruiser builds to that lvl and ppl have to play builds again that can die when get hit when they wanna see high dmg numbers. Discharge Holo is a good example of way to much sustain for a build that can oneshot out of stealth and a lot of the sustain is not even active defense, They can just facetank a lot during bring on high aoe pressure and a lot of cc. While crying about a pure glass power shatter mesmer (chrono/mirage) what has nothing passive and need high skill (aside from oneshotting brain-afk ppl out of stealth ofc) is just cringe. Remove the stunbreak on dodge completely already and WHEN all bruiser have less sustain nerf superiority complex and maybe torch 5 (mostly the condi part but not only).

What build are you playing that holos are oneshotting you out of stealth? Just after release Holo damage was insane, but nowadays Photon Forge skills have pretty reasonable damage values. If you want a good example of oneshot out of stealth, zerk mirage shatter mesmer is much better. Some deadeye builds also fit that description.

I play a lot of classes and Holo can oneshot everything that a power mes can oneshot too, for example my thief or a fresh air ele, sometimes necros and so on. Just that the Holo can still facetank with passive sustain a pure glass shatter mes can't. And don't forget that a mesmer need to equip pretty useless elite to get 5 second stealth, engi has it on the toolbelt slot with half the cooldown. Mesmer has the higher burst but engi feels like perma bursting just a little bit lower than mesmer do every 12 seconds. But i'm not complaining about the dmg, i complain about the imbalance between this dmg and his (passive) sustain.

I'm scared now xD

A DPS class that can "oneshot" (still waiting for you to name a specific build or a specific skill chain) another glassy DPS spec is not a problem. That's the price of being glassy. You named two specs which are

much

glassier than holo, but also which can teleport and have high-impact instacast skills, a luxury which engineer does not have.

Also I play power shatter mirage, I don't use Mass Invisibility, I play zerk GS sword/torch. Sometimes I'll stealth from far away, use blink and Jaunt to get close enough, and oneshot. There's literally no way for Holo to apply as much damage as shatter Mirage as fast as Mirage can. Holo has nowhere near the number of instacasts that Mirage does which is why it's not generally considered to be as cancerous. And that's not to mention how much more disengage Mirage (Portal, Blink, Jaunt,

Mirage Thrust

) and thief (high stealth access, sword 2, shortbow,

Shadowstep

) have compared to Holo. I left out some of their other disengage skills but you get the drift.

Holo is not glassy that is exactly my point, it only has the dmg from a glassy build but way too much sustain for that. A bit less burst than mesmer but for that way more sustained dmg, almost like perma minibursts. And a lot of discharge toolbelt (the most important at least from the turret) is instant. Mesmer only has instant shatters, which are only instant without clones and that only melee. GS2 is not instant, it has one of the best animations, ofc you can use 3 cds (stealth+blink+jaunt) to make it less visible, still you most likely can see the mesmer coming in pvp. Better than a thief or guard using instant max range teleport from out of los, or a 5 second stealth where you cannot predict that easy the time-window the burst most likely will come. Or even a fresh air ele that doesn't need any stealth because range instant burst with way lower cds than mesmers. Yes everyone can play power mes in silver EU or in NA and oneshot some unaware ppl, that doesn't prove anything. These ppl are ez kills even with a renegate.

Well I guess we're gonna have to disagree about the damage thing, by your logic core warrior has the same damage as Power Mirage. How quickly you can apply the damage is just as important as the damage values themselves. "Oneshot" generally means that someone can be taken from 100% health to 0% health without having time to react, Holo is completely incapable of doing that in May 2018. If I were to play the Discharge build and started out of stealth, I could probably 100-50 a Soulbeast with no Protection (yes once in a blue moon their protection runs out). Definitely not gonna oneshot a medium armor target.

I do agree that Holo's sustain is too high, that's pretty much solely due to Hard Light Arena. If they literally nerfed the base Protection duration down to 1.5s then it would be fine. Holo seems bulky because of the conversion build that converts a condition every time they get Protection, which means as long as they're sitting in the arena they are getting pulsed Protection and condi clears. The amount of Protection they get when running Leadership and of course Compounding Chemicals is obscene, once the arena runs out they'll still have something like 10s of Protection. THAT deserves a nerf.

[bravan.3876]

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

And that is exactly how it should be, a build that can facetank so much should hit like a wet noodle. Now bring all other brainless bruiser builds to that lvl and ppl have to play builds again that can die when get hit when they wanna see high dmg numbers. Discharge Holo is a good example of way to much sustain for a build that can oneshot out of stealth and a lot of the sustain is not even active defense, They can just facetank a lot during bring on high aoe pressure and a lot of cc. While crying about a pure glass power shatter mesmer (chrono/mirage) what has nothing passive and need high skill (aside from oneshotting brain-afk ppl out of stealth ofc) is just cringe. Remove the stunbreak on dodge completely already and WHEN all bruiser have less sustain nerf superiority complex and maybe torch 5 (mostly the condi part but not only).

What build are you playing that holos are oneshotting you out of stealth? Just after release Holo damage was insane, but nowadays Photon Forge skills have pretty reasonable damage values. If you want a good example of oneshot out of stealth, zerk mirage shatter mesmer is much better. Some deadeye builds also fit that description.

I play a lot of classes and Holo can oneshot everything that a power mes can oneshot too, for example my thief or a fresh air ele, sometimes necros and so on. Just that the Holo can still facetank with passive sustain a pure glass shatter mes can't. And don't forget that a mesmer need to equip pretty useless elite to get 5 second stealth, engi has it on the toolbelt slot with half the cooldown. Mesmer has the higher burst but engi feels like perma bursting just a little bit lower than mesmer do every 12 seconds. But i'm not complaining about the dmg, i complain about the imbalance between this dmg and his (passive) sustain.

I'm scared now xD

A DPS class that can "oneshot" (still waiting for you to name a specific build or a specific skill chain) another glassy DPS spec is not a problem. That's the price of being glassy. You named two specs which are

much

glassier than holo, but also which can teleport and have high-impact instacast skills, a luxury which engineer does not have.

Also I play power shatter mirage, I don't use Mass Invisibility, I play zerk GS sword/torch. Sometimes I'll stealth from far away, use blink and Jaunt to get close enough, and oneshot. There's literally no way for Holo to apply as much damage as shatter Mirage as fast as Mirage can. Holo has nowhere near the number of instacasts that Mirage does which is why it's not generally considered to be as cancerous. And that's not to mention how much more disengage Mirage (Portal, Blink, Jaunt,

Mirage Thrust

) and thief (high stealth access, sword 2, shortbow,

Shadowstep

) have compared to Holo. I left out some of their other disengage skills but you get the drift.

Holo is not glassy that is exactly my point, it only has the dmg from a glassy build but way too much sustain for that. A bit less burst than mesmer but for that way more sustained dmg, almost like perma minibursts. And a lot of discharge toolbelt (the most important at least from the turret) is instant. Mesmer only has instant shatters, which are only instant without clones and that only melee. GS2 is not instant, it has one of the best animations, ofc you can use 3 cds (stealth+blink+jaunt) to make it less visible, still you most likely can see the mesmer coming in pvp. Better than a thief or guard using instant max range teleport from out of los, or a 5 second stealth where you cannot predict that easy the time-window the burst most likely will come. Or even a fresh air ele that doesn't need any stealth because range instant burst with way lower cds than mesmers. Yes everyone can play power mes in silver EU or in NA and oneshot some unaware ppl, that doesn't prove anything. These ppl are ez kills even with a renegate.

Well I guess we're gonna have to disagree about the damage thing, by your logic core warrior has the same damage as Power Mirage. How quickly you can apply the damage is just as important as the damage values themselves. "Oneshot" generally means that someone can be taken from 100% health to 0% health without having time to react, Holo is completely incapable of doing that in May 2018. If I were to play the Discharge build and started out of stealth, I could probably 100-50 a Soulbeast with no Protection (yes once in a blue moon their protection runs out). Definitely not gonna oneshot a medium armor target.

I do agree that Holo's sustain is too high, that's pretty much solely due to

Hard Light Arena

. If they literally nerfed the base Protection duration down to 1.5s then it would be fine. Holo seems bulky because of the conversion build that converts a condition every time they get Protection, which means as long as they're sitting in the arena they are getting pulsed Protection and condi clears. The amount of Protection they get when running Leadership and of course

Compounding Chemicals

is obscene, once the arena runs out they'll still have something like 10s of Protection. THAT deserves a nerf.

I said it has less burst but it gets way more sustained dmg as substitute, Holo is literally perma mini-bursting without even being meant as a burstclass. A mesmer needs all dmg traits together with critluck to oneshot anything not light armor and not thief as well. Then it has no facetank ability at all, only active defense. Mesmer can oneshot like this since game release and it were always only noobs and semi afk wvw player complaining about this. At least we agree about the passive sustain part of Holo.

[kipthelip.5802]

The nerfs were well founded. That chrono build was cancerous.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

@apharma.3741 said:Might as well remove the stability at this point, 1s is a joke.

I was thinking the same thing when I read the notes. 3s of stab was already pretty lackluster if you didnt went for boonshare shenanigans, but 1s of stab is a mere joke and the definition of a band-aid fix.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

[apharma.3741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.