Oh Hey Mesmer Nerfs

apharma.3741 · May 24, 2018

@Chaith.8256 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Chaith.8256 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@apharma.3741 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Just what is so difficult to avoid between the 1s cast, the phantasm spending another 1s walking up to you, then the 1/2s cast with it very obviously raising its hands above its head to charge the attack?

I mean you could interrupt or blind the cast, out run the phantasm, blind/CC the phantasm or kill the phantasm.

It's not so much that it's hard to avoid so much that it's outperforming when it does land. Like if both pulses of mesmer's torch 5 hit (And you're traited to have The Pledge because you better be) it does more damage than both Scourge torch 4+5 attacks combined. There's always some degree of apples to oranges when it comes to classes but if all of the mesmer torch skills land that's literally 16k damage on a Carrion amulet. 19k damage on Deadshot. That's

a lot

.

Base burning on mesmer torch phantasm is 3 stacks for 3sBase burning on scourge torch harrowing wave is 1 stack for 8s

Mesmer gets 3 stacks of confusion for 3sScourge adds 2 stacks of torment for 6s

Mesmers is on a 30s CDScourge is on 20s CD

Both can get a 20% CD reduction so that’s equal however both mesmer skills are 30s CD while scourge is 20 and 25s.

Sorry but I’m not seeing it, additionally the prestige is very very predictable and confusion will do minor damage if all you do is cleanse the burn while torment will still tick whether you move or not. They are about equal.

If I hit all torch skills I’m playing against a potato, as soon as you see the stealth you should be dodging after 2.5s. I already explained how to counter the phantasm, what next? Can’t see it because 10 billion clones?

I literally went into the PvP lobby and look at the numbers with the standard carrion ineptitude build while I was writing that post to ensure is accuracy.

Something can be well balanced in terms of animation and counter play and still over perform based on the numbers. All of the holosmith photon forge skills had really clear obvious wind ups but they still over performed damage wise. I'd tone mesmer torch down by 5-10% and I think that'd be fine.

It is on a 30s CD, that’s pretty long even by base game standards and it does good damage but nothing massively oppressive while being very balanced in animation and counter play. There is literally nothing to complain about.

There are skills that will do as much or more in a marauder/demolished build on far lower cool downs with much less time to react, especially given both torch skills give you at least 2s to figure out what to do and you can cleanse afterwards if absolutely necessary something tanking a high damage power hit won’t let you do.

The only thing I can honestly say I’d be fine with changing is removing the extra stack of burn from the pledge as part of a concerted multi class movement to make traits largely do 1 and only 1 thing.

You can't compare a single Mesmer skill to some single marauder class based skill. The reason why torch 5 is a problem is because of ALL THE OTHER sources of random incoming damage from the Mesmer. You can't dodge all of it. Whereas a Spellbreaker or Holo for example, aren't combo stacking multiple sources of attacks at the same time like a Mirage. So even if some single skill off photon forge seems more powerful than the single torch 5, it cant' happen at the same time as rifle 5 and rifle 3. This is why people aren't referencing photon forge as something that needs to be nerfed. Mirage on the other hand, just has too many sources of non stop machine gun multi-source stacked DPS "due to clones" and instant cast skills that work at the same time as other animations.

It isn't that torch 5 is UBER OP, it's that if something should be nerfed to tone down that overwhelming assault, it should be torch 5.

You are so completely wrong. You don't nerf core skills for the sake of 1 or 2 outlier abilities on a singular build within an elite spec. You nerf the elite spec and the parts that are actually over performing especially when they can only exist in a singular build or combination, in this case ambush skills.

You can run a torch on chrono and core mesmer, if you balance it around mirage you end up making mirage mandatory for the weapon to be useful at all while making the weapon arguably worse in any other combination you can run across other elites. This is such a basic and obvious observation that you should probably never be listened to ever again unless you're willing to see that it's a bad idea.

I like your example of holosmith, I think you've forgotten that the meta holosmith has 2 instant cast toolbelt skills which also do damage with SD and one even does damage itself and a crit from particle accelerator with SD will do nearly the same amount of damage as the torch skills. Additionally while a spellbreaker won't combo multiple skills at the same time they will chain them which is actually worse than using combos that hit at the same time because 1 block or evade will negate multiple attacks if they're are being timed to hit at the same time while constant attacks require sustained damage mitigation and healing usually.

If you think the constant attacks of mesmer ambushes are a problem you should be asking for them to be toned down

Mesmer Torch has clearly gotten a free pass when it comes to the recent philosophy applied to multi-burn stacking skills. You saw what happened on December 12th to 7 burn stacking Elementalist skills, Engi's Incendiary Powder, Incendiary Ammo, Rocket Kick, Guardian's Judge's Intervention, Purging Flames, Chapter: 2 Justice, Scourge's Torch 4, Ranger's Torch, Berserker's Torch 4+5 + traits.

A ton of these huge burn nerfs in PvP/WvW were to core or underpowered specs, but it's aite, S-Tier Condi Mes should be the exception because Torch is a core weapon? C'mon mate, nobody but Mesmer mains think dropping 1 stack off of all Mesmer torch skills and possibly extending the duration by 2s would be unfair.

Yes if I remember correctly the burns were reduced in intensity but increased in duration, I would have no problem with them becoming 2 stacks for 4s or 1 stack for 8s but that isn’t what these 2 people asked for.

Trevor didn’t ask for a rebalance of stacks and duration he asked for flat nerfs as did Mortrialus.

I actually didn't say anything at all outside of:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Adequate nerfs to chrono actually, but they really should have hit that torch 5.

Considering more than half the nerfs to chrono were flat 50% damage reductions it was more than implied that you wished for its total damage to likewise be reduced. However if what you meant was a redistribution of burn stacks vs duration so it keeps the same total damage just over a longer time period I’ll happily admit it’s been a misunderstanding.

You know that nerfing stacks from 3 for 3s to 1 for 8s, that IS a 50% flat nerf to the performance, right? Ok then.

sips coffee

It’s not a 50% flat nerf in damage, when you cover the burning you will still do the same total damage over the duration of the burning. I mean it would be about an 11% nerf but I’m sure you knew that.

I also mentioned 2 stacks for 4s but that doesn’t fit your agenda now does it?

Edit: just to nip this in the bud, mesmers can apply smaller conditions very frequently so if the burn is first in there’s a high chance it will stay for its duration in a 1v1.

Chaith.8256 · May 24, 2018

@apharma.3741 said:It’s not a 50% flat nerf in damage, when you cover the burning you will still do the same total damage over the duration of the burning. I mean it would be about an 11% nerf but I’m sure you knew that.
I also mentioned 2 stacks for 4s but that doesn’t fit your agenda now does it?

I said a 50% nerf in performance, why are you very very incorrectly using the word damage? Also you made it very clear that you were okay with 2 stacks for 4s OR 1 stack for 8s, meaning to you they're interchangeable. I still think you don't understand that the less burst you do, and the more duration it is, the WAY worse the performance will be due to how condition clear works. Burst is everything for conditions. The way you are so incorrect because you look at PvE damage with no rampant condition clears when this is a PvP/WvW split discussion is amusing me further.

apharma.3741 · May 24, 2018

@Chaith.8256 said:
@apharma.3741 said:It’s not a 50% flat nerf in damage, when you cover the burning you will still do the same total damage over the duration of the burning. I mean it would be about an 11% nerf but I’m sure you knew that.
I also mentioned 2 stacks for 4s but that doesn’t fit your agenda now does it?

I said a 50% nerf in performance, why are you very very incorrectly using the word damage? Also you made it very clear that you were okay with 2 stacks for 4s

OR

1 stack for 8s, meaning to you they're interchangeable. I still think you don't understand that the less burst you do, and the more duration it is, the WAY worse the performance will be due to how condition clear works. Burst is everything for conditions. The way you are so incorrect because you look at PvE damage with no rampant condition clears when this is a PvP/WvW split discussion is amusing me further.

Conditions shouldn’t be burst though and it’s not just me that thinks this otherwise ANet wouldn’t have made the changes you mentioned above to every other class and weapon skill you brought up.

Math.5123 · May 24, 2018

@apharma.3741 said:
@Chaith.8256 said:
@apharma.3741 said:It’s not a 50% flat nerf in damage, when you cover the burning you will still do the same total damage over the duration of the burning. I mean it would be about an 11% nerf but I’m sure you knew that.
I also mentioned 2 stacks for 4s but that doesn’t fit your agenda now does it?

I said a 50% nerf in performance, why are you very very incorrectly using the word damage? Also you made it very clear that you were okay with 2 stacks for 4s

OR

1 stack for 8s, meaning to you they're interchangeable. I still think you don't understand that the less burst you do, and the more duration it is, the WAY worse the performance will be due to how condition clear works. Burst is everything for conditions. The way you are so incorrect because you look at PvE damage with no rampant condition clears when this is a PvP/WvW split discussion is amusing me further.

Conditions shouldn’t be burst though and it’s not just me that thinks this otherwise ANet wouldn’t have made the changes you mentioned above to every other class and weapon skill you brought up.

Which brings us back to the original point of that mesmers should get the same treatment as all the other classes.

Chaith.8256 · May 24, 2018

@apharma.3741 said:Conditions shouldn’t be burst though and it’s not just me that thinks this otherwise ANet wouldn’t have made the changes you mentioned above to every other class and weapon skill you brought up.

Exactly.. now you've come full circle and are on the same page as everyone else ITT. Just to lay this out again.

Burning damage on Paper =/= performance of skill in PvP/WvW due to sentient enemies.
Condition burst + Interrupts is way more effective than long duration ones. I say that 3stacks of burning for 3s is roughly 50% more lethal than 1stacks of burning for 9s due to how condition clears work. Debate me on this if you like, but I think this is ballpark-true.
Nearly all the good burning skills in the game have been nerfed in performance by 33%-50% in PvP in the December 12th condi patch.

You seem like a rational person who also thinks Conditions should not be burst, and that dictates that Mesmer torch needs a 33%-50% performance nerf in PvP as well. The part you got caught up on is that your burn skills going from 3 to 1 stacks is a huge performance nerf, and you don't play Condi Engi/Ele/Guard/Ranger or you would know that.

apharma.3741 · May 24, 2018

@Chaith.8256 said:
@apharma.3741 said:Conditions shouldn’t be burst though and it’s not just me that thinks this otherwise ANet wouldn’t have made the changes you mentioned above to every other class and weapon skill you brought up.

Exactly.. now you've come full circle and are on the same page as everyone else ITT. Just to lay this out again.

Burning damage on Paper =/= performance of skill in PvP/WvW due to sentient enemies.
Condition burst + Interrupts is way more effective than long duration ones. I say that 3stacks of burning for 3s is roughly 50% more lethal than 1stacks of burning for 9s due to how condition clears work. Debate me on this if you like, but I think this is ballpark-true.
Nearly all the good burning skills in the game have been nerfed in performance by 33%-50% in PvP in the December 12th condi patch.

You seem like a rational person who also thinks Conditions should not be burst, and that dictates that Mesmer torch needs a 33%-50% performance nerf in PvP as well. The part you got caught up on is that your burn skills going from 3 to 1 stacks is a huge performance nerf, and you don't play Condi Engi/Ele/Guard/Ranger or you would know that.

Sure if people had said performance from the get go and explained it like you have here it would have been fine. I think the lesson we can all take from this is we should really be more informative when making suggestions.

Also I used to play condition engineer before the condition changes to poison and burn stacking and I played condition ele before and after the December patch, while currently running a hybrid (60% grieving/40% celestial) sword weaver build in WvW. 1 stack of burn is very often ignored by people, maybe not someone like yourself that does understand how much damage it can really do but for a lot of the player base that 1-2 stacks can be what kills them over time.

bravan.3876 · May 24, 2018

Condi mirage needs more than only a torch burningstack nerf, why even having a dispute, i think it is pretty obvious

Chaith.8256 · May 24, 2018

@apharma.3741 said:1 stack of burn is very often ignored by people, maybe not someone like yourself that does understand how much damage it can really do but for a lot of the player base that 1-2 stacks can be what kills them over time.

Well let's just say that you quiting condi Engi after the patch was a good decision because it's hard to bank on players letting 1-2 stacks of burn ticking for 350-700 kill them over 30-60 seconds less whatever other conditions you can apply.

mortrialus.3062 · May 24, 2018

@bravan.3876 said:Condi mirage needs more than only a torch burningstack nerf, why even having a dispute, i think it is pretty obvious

Eh. Like a condi Mirage can blow all their shatters and jaunts and blinds on you to dump 30+ confusion stacks on you and as long as you don't attack during that time it'll do about 30% of your health and that level of confusion stacking can't be sustained. It's basically hitting you with everything they have all at once. If you do attack it'll chunk you for 8k at that intensity but that's very much your fault for not playing around it. The level of torment it can throw out (In far more limited quantities) can similarly be played around.

MikeL.8260 · May 24, 2018

I dont play chronobunker (except in a few ATs that was needed) but I do use the Chaos traitline on my Mirage. What hurt me personally is the stab duration nerf, its hard to time it now with my crappy PC that gives off 10-15 fps and 100 ms connection to top it off. Chaos is completely useless to me now. In a meta thats so heavily based on sustain..

mortrialus.3062 · May 24, 2018

@MikeL.8260 said:I dont play chronobunker (except in a few ATs that was needed) but I do use the Chaos traitline on my Mirage. What hurt me personally is the stab duration nerf, its hard to time it now with my crappy PC that gives off 10-15 fps and 100 ms connection to top it off. Chaos is completely useless to me now. In a meta thats so heavily based on sustain..I'm sorry but PvP can't be balanced around people running the game on potato pcs.

MikeL.8260 · May 24, 2018

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@MikeL.8260 said:I dont play chronobunker (except in a few ATs that was needed) but I do use the Chaos traitline on my Mirage. What hurt me personally is the stab duration nerf, its hard to time it now with my crappy PC that gives off 10-15 fps and 100 ms connection to top it off. Chaos is completely useless to me now. In a meta thats so heavily based on sustain..I'm sorry but PvP can't be balanced around people running the game on potato pcs.

I may have a potato PC but I still make it to the top 250 in EU.I'm just sharing my personal experience with the nerfs and I think the stab nerf was unnecessary.

Lincolnbeard.1735 · May 24, 2018

Can we already complain about other professions or will we stick to the plan and don't stop hitting on mesmer until the profession itself has the damage and survival of a clone?

mortrialus.3062 · May 24, 2018

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Can we already complain about other professions or will we stick to the plan and don't stop hitting on mesmer until the profession itself has the damage and survival of a clone?

Remove the stunbreak on Elusive Mind (Maybe turn it in two condition cleanse to compensate?) And trim a burn stack off the torch skills and condi mirage will be in a pretty well balanced place within the meta.

NuhDah.9812 · May 24, 2018

@BEAR.8216 said:I am not a person that posts on forums, but I feel the need to vent. Regardless of the actual skill/spec nerf, it seems that every time I log in you are nerfing the mesmer... what, too many thieves, rangers or holo's complained that only they, as Anet favorites, should be allowed to have a one-hit combo? Seriously, the 4-6k dmg from ranger skill 1 spam needs to be fixed, the 18-20k backstab, almost everything on a holo is OP...but you won't because you all love your rangers, thieves and holos and you seem to hate the mesmer. Why not just remove it completely? Exchange it for another no-skill spam 1 class? ... You are so lost on what you want it to be from it's original design. People complain about mesmers yet it takes a ton of skill to play one well, especially in wvw or pvp. And I'm not talking about the hide and strike weeny players, I'm talking about the true skill players out there and those who are trying to be. You are forcing us to into your idea of a mesmer or even on to a different class. Seems you are way out of touch with what the players want. Said my piece and I will not say more. I'm sure I'll get some nice toxic feedback from all the players who think I'm dis'ing them on thief, ranger or holo; this has nothing to do with you as a player. it is class mechanics I talk about.

You say this, but reality shows that, besides DE for which the devs don't seem to know where to take, the rest o the thief specs got mostly nerfed otherwise nothing every patch since PoF. It got nerfed even when no one complained about it since most of the time people cried on the forums about the way bigger offenders Scourge, Spellbreaker, Mesmer, Firebrand. They sort of messed up from whst I heard the DE redesign, but they made a monster from Mesmer after their redesign. So I guess you including thief in the Anet favorites category is sort of funny... not nearly close to reality, probably closer to the memory of a frustrating moment when got stomped by some thief that got the best you, but none the less funny.

Taltevus.3289 · May 24, 2018

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ansau.7326 said:
@allias.1420 said:
@Ansau.7326 said:
@allias.1420 said:
@"zoopop.5630" said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.

staff is too strong for mesmer. Imo well deserved as it reduces the effectiveness of mirage as well which is needed. But I agree that torch 5 also needs a reduction on burn stacks

An 18s CD skill with +2s channeling attack deals just as much as a mediocre AA. This is iWarlock from 22/05/2018...

yes its mediocre damage, maybe even subpar now. But when you take into account the overall damage output of a mirage you can see that it is well deserved.

But nerfing a single skill does nothing to mirage damage output, and yet in the process you "kill" a phantasm that can be used by all mesmers and all builds. And that is without considering mirage damage overwhelm comes mainly from condis and not direct damage...

This nerf is just another prove on how much anet can go deep into the stupidity, they're mastering again the "Purity of purpose" logic.

Warlock had crappy damage before the rework and mesmer staff was still top tier. We'll be fine.

Warlock didn't have crappy damage before the rework. 10% per unique condition?99% of the mesmer players just didn't understand how versatile the Staff was.Zerk staff before rework was really leathal. However, it required an actual set up for the burst.

Also Staff had a near invisible burst you wren't going to see that bolt from the warlock among everything else. You could come quite close to 1 shot levels of damage.I'd take back the old warlock any day. Yes, it's nice these phantasms stack vulnerability and they play nice with the domination line but it's nothing like the original warlock. 10% per unique condition and Mesmer has access to nearly every condition in the book we are only missing fear. I think?Even if the first bolt missed as a chronomancer it was likely to hit the next time.

mortrialus.3062 · May 24, 2018

@Taltevus.3289 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Ansau.7326 said:
@allias.1420 said:
@Ansau.7326 said:
@allias.1420 said:
@"zoopop.5630" said:staff nerf was random, was hoping for torch 5 to get a small nerf instead of staff.