Soft CCs and Expertise need to be unlinked

[Hot Boy.7138]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage.

I don't get it. Power can burst in a short time so having shorter immob and cripple is fine while condi only does damage over time. It's just logical.

No it's not. Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now. But that's besides the point. This isn't about DPS. Not everyone running a power build is a berserker. I'd wager most people aren't running berserker.

This about crowd control. Conditions builds have the advantage in fights because their soft CCs have longer durations. Think of soft CC as being outside the damage equation, which it is. Think of soft CC as being CC. Which it is. There is soft and hard CC. Because Soft CC is treated like a damaging condition in this game, expertise extends it. Let's consider if the opposite were true. Just a hypothetical. Would it be fair if Ferocity extended the duration of Soft CC, but expertise didn't? It wouldn't be fair.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Hot Boy.7138" said:snip

I don't agree with "Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now".Too many condi builds depend on soft cc it's not even funny. If you nerf cleanses though, it'll be a different story.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage.

I don't get it. Power can burst in a short time so having shorter immob and cripple is fine while condi only does damage over time. It's just logical.

No it's not. Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now. But that's besides the point. This isn't about DPS. Not everyone running a power build is a berserker. I'd wager most people aren't running berserker.

This is literal nonsense. No condition build in the game does as my damage as quickly as power variants of the same class. Not even the most extreme example, mesmers.

[Crab Fear.1624]

/\/\/\/\/\ <---- 5 mountains

[Hot Boy.7138]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage.

I don't get it. Power can burst in a short time so having shorter immob and cripple is fine while condi only does damage over time. It's just logical.

No it's not. Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now. But that's besides the point. This isn't about DPS. Not everyone running a power build is a berserker. I'd wager most people aren't running berserker.

This is literal nonsense. No condition build in the game does as my damage as quickly as power variants of the same class. Not even the most extreme example, mesmers.

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:snip

I don't agree with "Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now".Too many condi builds depend on soft cc it's not even funny. If you nerf cleanses though, it'll be a different story.

Too many power builds depend on soft CC. Too many builds in general depend on soft CC. Soft CC, like hard CC, shouldnt be connected to any gear stats. You're admitting that condi builds have an advantage with soft CC and it should be so. I'm arguing that soft CC is advantageous to everyone and shouldn't be unfairly balanced in favor of condi builds.

[Hot Boy.7138]

Let's just say Crowd Control in general should not be impacted by any gear stats.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage.

I don't get it. Power can burst in a short time so having shorter immob and cripple is fine while condi only does damage over time. It's just logical.

No it's not. Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now. But that's besides the point. This isn't about DPS. Not everyone running a power build is a berserker. I'd wager most people aren't running berserker.

This is literal nonsense. No condition build in the game does as my damage as quickly as power variants of the same class. Not even the most extreme example, mesmers.

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:snip

I don't agree with "Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now".Too many condi builds depend on soft cc it's not even funny. If you nerf cleanses though, it'll be a different story.

Too many power builds depend on soft CC. Too many builds in general depend on soft CC. Soft CC, like hard CC, shouldnt be connected to any gear stats. You're admitting that condi builds have an advantage with soft CC and it should be so. I'm arguing that soft CC is advantageous to everyone and shouldn't be unfairly balanced in favor of condi builds.

There is gear that impacts and improves outgoing Hard CC or weakens incoming hard CC.

It's hard to say condi builds in general have a huge advantage with 6/9 professions don't even have remotely viable condition damage builds.

This thread looks like it was made back when CI Mirage was gaining tracking and running rough shot over ranked. So yeah, CI Mirage chaining together 9 seconds+ of Immobilization is gone. But that has far more to do with a single broken trait and skill synergy than the way expertise plays with non damaging conditions.

[Hot Boy.7138]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage.

I don't get it. Power can burst in a short time so having shorter immob and cripple is fine while condi only does damage over time. It's just logical.

No it's not. Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now. But that's besides the point. This isn't about DPS. Not everyone running a power build is a berserker. I'd wager most people aren't running berserker.

This is literal nonsense. No condition build in the game does as my damage as quickly as power variants of the same class. Not even the most extreme example, mesmers.

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:snip

I don't agree with "Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now".Too many condi builds depend on soft cc it's not even funny. If you nerf cleanses though, it'll be a different story.

Too many power builds depend on soft CC. Too many builds in general depend on soft CC. Soft CC, like hard CC, shouldnt be connected to any gear stats. You're admitting that condi builds have an advantage with soft CC and it should be so. I'm arguing that soft CC is advantageous to everyone and shouldn't be unfairly balanced in favor of condi builds.

There

is

gear that impacts and improves outgoing Hard CC or weakens incoming hard CC.

It's hard to say condi builds in general have a huge advantage with 6/9 professions don't even have remotely viable condition damage builds.

This thread looks like it was made back when CI Mirage was gaining tracking and running rough shot over ranked. So yeah, CI Mirage chaining together 9 seconds+ of Immobilization is gone. But that has far more to do with a single broken trait and skill synergy than the way expertise plays with non damaging conditions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage.

I don't get it. Power can burst in a short time so having shorter immob and cripple is fine while condi only does damage over time. It's just logical.

No it's not. Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now. But that's besides the point. This isn't about DPS. Not everyone running a power build is a berserker. I'd wager most people aren't running berserker.

This is literal nonsense. No condition build in the game does as my damage as quickly as power variants of the same class. Not even the most extreme example, mesmers.

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:snip

I don't agree with "Burst potential of power builds is about the same for conditions builds and has been for a long time now".Too many condi builds depend on soft cc it's not even funny. If you nerf cleanses though, it'll be a different story.

Too many power builds depend on soft CC. Too many builds in general depend on soft CC. Soft CC, like hard CC, shouldnt be connected to any gear stats. You're admitting that condi builds have an advantage with soft CC and it should be so. I'm arguing that soft CC is advantageous to everyone and shouldn't be unfairly balanced in favor of condi builds.

There

is

gear that impacts and improves outgoing Hard CC or weakens incoming hard CC.

It's hard to say condi builds in general have a huge advantage with 6/9 professions don't even have remotely viable condition damage builds.

This thread looks like it was made back when CI Mirage was gaining tracking and running rough shot over ranked. So yeah, CI Mirage chaining together 9 seconds+ of Immobilization is gone. But that has far more to do with a single broken trait and skill synergy than the way expertise plays with non damaging conditions.

This will always be relevant as long as expertise lengthens the duration of CCs

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i'm not sure whats so hard to understand here. being able to achieve 100% cripple or weakness duration (often times with just 1 skill) is really bad design.

[Hot Boy.7138]

On 6/14/2018 at 5:52 PM, Hot Boy.7138 said:

I made a post about this a while back, but i figured I'd give it another shot.

I think we will all agree that everyone benefits from using Crowd Control. Doesn't matter if you are a condition build or a power build, utilizing CC at the right time is always advantageous.

The issue I have is that condition builds benefit much more from soft CCs, such as Chill, Blinds, Cripple, Immobilize, and Weakness. These CCs are listed as conditions. Most condition builds maximize their condition duration with expertise, thus extending the length of their soft CC duration.

Power builds rely on soft CC just as much as condition builds but it's much less effective with power builds because power builds naturally aren't stacking expertise on their gear.

It may seem minor since it has always been this way, but I believe this gives condition builds an unfair advantage in combat simply because the duration of their soft CC is extended by their usual gear set up.

I propose that soft CC be excluded from condition durations lengthened by Expertise.Soft CC and damaging conditions should be treated separately. Treating them the same is disadvantageous to power builds in general.

TLDR: Soft CC shouldn't be affected by expertise. It's simply not fair to power builds. Expertise should continue to enhance the duration of damaging conditions and ONLY damaging conditions.

Seems like a good time to resurrect this topic. I still stand by this. Expertise extends the duration of cripple, chill, slow, immobilize, blinds, vulnerability, and weakness. It was a bad decision to leave soft CC as the same kind of debuff as damaging conditions when adding the stat Expertise to the game. An expansion is a good time to overhaul the soft CC mechanic so that it isn't affected by expertise. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Hot Boy.7138

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Hot Boy.7138 said:

Seems like a good time to resurrect this topic. I still stand by this. Expertise extends the duration of cripple, chill, slow, immobilize, blinds, vulnerability, and weakness. It was a bad decision to leave soft CC as the same kind of debuff as damaging conditions when adding the stat Expertise to the game. An expansion is a good time to overhaul the soft CC mechanic so that it isn't affected by expertise. 

They capped a lot of the soft CC durations to 10s earlier this year, and removed a lot of expertise from PvP, so what is the exact issue that you want to rez your own thread again over?

[Bazsi.2734]

4 hours ago, Hot Boy.7138 said:

Seems like a good time to resurrect this topic. I still stand by this. Expertise extends the duration of cripple, chill, slow, immobilize, blinds, vulnerability, and weakness. It was a bad decision to leave soft CC as the same kind of debuff as damaging conditions when adding the stat Expertise to the game. An expansion is a good time to overhaul the soft CC mechanic so that it isn't affected by expertise. 

There was a very recent update in 2020 february... you might want to read the notes. 

[mistsim.2748]

I don't care what happens in spvp, it's a dead mode. Don't touch in WvW. I just built an Immobilize Druid with Bringer's gear. I can spam multiple 4s aoe immobilizes on zergs, and it's a good nice role to fill.

Omg someone necrod this.

Edited October 29, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, mistsim.2748 said:

I don't care what happens in spvp, it's a dead mode. Don't touch in WvW. I just built an Immobilize Druid with Bringer's gear. I can spam multiple 4s aoe immobilizes on zergs, and it's a good nice role to fill.

Omg someone necrod this.

Druid is still baller good in wvw, I enjoy it.

I run Cele on it. Very strong

[mistsim.2748]

4 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Druid is still baller good in wvw, I enjoy it.

I run Cele on it. Very strong

Nice, but for roaming right? I play Trapper SB for roaming, and Druid for zergs.

I actually ran into a Cele Soulbeast the other day, he hit like a truck. Axe/wh/GS.

Edited October 29, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, mistsim.2748 said:

Nice, but for roaming right? I play Trapper SB for roaming, and Druid for zergs.

I actually ran into a Cele Soulbeast the other day, he hit like a truck. Axe/wh/GS.

I built it to be an all-purpose wvw build, which cele is really good for.

It can roam, zerg support to a degree with heals, but mostly assist for roll in zerg buster tactics with entangle.

It's even decent at commanding actually, it can roll in and survive well.

It runs this:

• * All Cele with Dolyak Runes - Axe/Axe Energy/Strength - Staff Energy/Cleansing "to replicate Escape sigil in pvp"
• * Skirm - Wild - Druid
• * Troll - Quick Zeph - Sharp Stone - Light Ref - Entangle
• * Jacaranda/Bristle if roaming - Normal Wolf for F2 fear and Electric Wyvern for those CCs if zerging
• * Holo Super Cake & Toxic Focus Crystal
• * The damage on this build gets seriously cranked up from might stacking with all the conc off cele stats, and how Toxic Crystal does condi damage based off power. But the best part here that between the energy sigils, vigor with conc attached to it, and the Super Cake energy regeneration, it has nearly bottomless dodge rolling. The Staff autos being a channel rather than a projectile is also strangely useful with Sharp Stone. It gets under all the proj null skills and due to the channel striking in succession so quickly, it can apply the 10 bleed stack very quickly. And of course the CA kit reactivates so much faster in WvW, which is why this build is using a lot of sources of small health regen, to keep the CA Kit running, dolyak runes, super cake health regen, wilderness regens, troll, it all works out well.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[mistsim.2748]

41 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I built it to be an all-purpose wvw build, which cele is really good for.

It can roam, zerg support to a degree with heals, but mostly assist for roll in zerg buster tactics with entangle.

It's even decent at commanding actually, it can roll in and survive well.

It runs this:

• * All Cele with Dolyak Runes - Axe/Axe Energy/Strength - Staff Energy/Cleansing "to replicate Escape sigil in pvp"
• * Skirm - Wild - Druid
• * Troll - Quick Zeph - Sharp Stone - Light Ref - Entangle
• * Jacaranda/Bristle if roaming - Normal Wolf for F2 fear and Electric Wyvern for those CCs if zerging
• * Holo Super Cake & Toxic Focus Crystal
• * The damage on this build gets seriously cranked up from might stacking with all the conc off cele stats, and how Toxic Crystal does condi damage based off power. But the best part here that between the energy sigils, vigor with conc attached to it, and the Super Cake energy regeneration, it has nearly bottomless dodge rolling. The Staff autos being a channel rather than a projectile is also strangely useful with Sharp Stone. It gets under all the proj null skills and due to the channel striking in succession so quickly, it can apply the 10 bleed stack very quickly. And of course the CA kit reactivates so much faster in WvW, which is why this build is using a lot of sources of small health regen, to keep the CA Kit running, dolyak runes, super cake health regen, wilderness regens, troll, it all works out well.

That's actually very similar to what I came up with on the SB (for roaming mostly):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwEcEWosAmE7j9wOxT5S9dOgI-z1IY1ojvUisAqMByMC6NEEfWiY1C-w

I threw some poison in there too. And might should be 25 stacks at all times.

I can't play without Dolly Stance tbh. Druid has no on-demand stab so can get locked down too easily in 1vX, so I only take it zerging. This is my build, check out the immob durations: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAYZlVwWYMMOWJOaLXt1RcF-zVIYdUxXGVXBhkC+uK+F-w.

I think having expertise on Cele has been a game changer in general.

Edited October 29, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[RedAvenged.5217]

Yeah screw anet