Ideas to tone down offensive AoEs

[Swagger.1459]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I'm an AoE and I find this offensive.

I’m sorry bud!

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow lol this is a horrible idea. a smaller target cap would heavily favor the bigger zerg.

Do you have a better idea to discuss?

since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions, no. the current state of wvw is hopeless.

[Swagger.1459]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow lol this is a horrible idea. a smaller target cap would heavily favor the bigger zerg.

Do you have a better idea to discuss?

since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions, no. the current state of wvw is hopeless.

So make an effort to address the issue brought up by Ben... He is obviously willing to discuss ideas, so maybe do something constructive and post some suggestions instead of just telling players they have terrible ideas while not being able to offer any of your own.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow lol this is a horrible idea. a smaller target cap would heavily favor the bigger zerg.

Do you have a better idea to discuss?

since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions, no. the current state of wvw is hopeless.

So make an effort to address the issue brought up by Ben... He is obviously willing to discuss ideas, so maybe do something constructive and post some suggestions instead of just telling players they have terrible ideas while not being able to offer any of your own.

its hopeless... all is lost... waaaaaggghghhhghhg

[Swagger.1459]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow lol this is a horrible idea. a smaller target cap would heavily favor the bigger zerg.

Do you have a better idea to discuss?

since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions, no. the current state of wvw is hopeless.

So make an effort to address the issue brought up by Ben... He is obviously willing to discuss ideas, so maybe do something constructive and post some suggestions instead of just telling players they have terrible ideas while not being able to offer any of your own.

its hopeless... all is lost... waaaaaggghghhhghhg

Ben actually offered some hope in welcoming discussions, so you’re just making excuses. Seeing that you can identify a “horrible idea”, that must mean you can come up with some great ideas of your own. Let’s see what ya got and discuss it!

[Swagger.1459]

@LetoII.3782

Ben offered to discuss this topic so posters can offer their feedback... It’s much more productive to take advantage of the opportunity to talk about this area.

[Zyreva.1078]

To tone down AOE

• Dmg needs to go down
• CDs need to go up
• Casttimes need to go up

But lowering the target cap would improve absolutely nothing. The visual clutter that prevents you from avoiding the dmg would stay the same and you could still get oneshot randomly.

And not only dmg, but also aoe boonspam and healing should be looked at.

[LetoII.3782]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow lol this is a horrible idea. a smaller target cap would heavily favor the bigger zerg.

Do you have a better idea to discuss?

since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions, no. the current state of wvw is hopeless.

maybe do something constructive and post some suggestions instead of just telling players they have terrible ideas while not being able to offer any of your own.

Sounds good, but if I'm doing Anet's job obviously someone needs to do mine so...

Ben offered to discuss this topic so posters can offer their feedback... It’s much more productive to take advantage of the opportunity to talk about this area.

You started this thread June 18 of last year.

[Swagger.1459]

@LetoII.3782Who cares? It’s an important topic. Are you capable of contributing ideas or not?

[LetoII.3782]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow lol this is a horrible idea. a smaller target cap would heavily favor the bigger zerg.

Do you have a better idea to discuss?

since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions, no. the current state of wvw is hopeless.

maybe do something constructive and post some suggestions instead of just telling players they have terrible ideas while not being able to offer any of your own.

Sounds good, but if I'm doing Anet's job obviously someone needs to do mine so...

Ben offered to discuss this topic so posters can offer their feedback... It’s much more productive to take advantage of the opportunity to talk about this area.

You started this thread June 18 of last year.

Who cares? It’s an important topic. Are you capable of contributing ideas or not?

Has a patch not been announced? I thought I'd seen one coming... My point being ideas phase long over, implementation underway.

[Swagger.1459]

@"LetoII.3782"

So in essence you have nothing to discuss with the devs except to imply they should "do their jobs". You can't come up with anything else? Are you not aware that a "Systems Team" was recently formed and that player input can be extra important?

[Skotlex.7580]

The damage of a simple aoe is probably fine, since strong aoes promote scattering over being a "blob", so that's good in itself.

The problem seems to be..... way too many aoes, that no matter where you got, you'll go splat?

maybe the issue is that in WvW one is hit from multiple sources in a short time, so there's no way to survive without invulnerabilities.

Could some mechanic be created to cause reduced damage when hit from multiple sources?

Changing the amount of aoe would impact heavily the other modes, so whatever fix is implemented needs to be contained in WvW.

Another alternative is to have o players take reduced damage from ranged attacks by default until hit by melee skills, something like that could end the pirate ship meta as now it's necessary to go melee before ranged attackers can influence battles.

Just tossing some ideas here.

[Swagger.1459]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow lol this is a horrible idea. a smaller target cap would heavily favor the bigger zerg.

Do you have a better idea to discuss?

since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions, no. the current state of wvw is hopeless.

And if you don't post a suggestion then I will take this as your suggestion...

"since anet nerfed the aoe cap a while back and are obstinate about undoing their past actions"

So you want to address the problem of "too many aoes" by INCREASING the AoE cap, thus making AoEs MORE powerful and AoE builds and skills MORE desired by teams... Again, you want to address the AoE problem by making AoEs MORE of a problem? Have you ever heard of the phase "add fuel to the fire"?

I think the devs would rather use my "horrible idea" over your idea that makes the AoE issues 10X worse and kills off build diversity even more.

[LetoII.3782]

@"Swagger.1459" said:

Are you not aware that a "Systems Team" was recently formed and that player input can be extra important?

An internal restructuring of jobs that were already being done, by the people that were already doing them... Who are already polishing up work on the subject of this self-necroed thread.

Kind of like having a beta the week before launch... Nah, not much to discuss here 'til they push the patch.

[Swagger.1459]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:

Are you not aware that a "Systems Team" was recently formed and that player input can be extra important?

An internal restructuring of jobs that were already being done, by the people that were already doing them... Who are already polishing up work on the subject of this self-necroed thread.

Kind of like having a beta the week before launch... Nah, not much to discuss here 'til they push the patch.

And where are the details on this? "Who are already polishing up work on the subject"... Do you have a link?

[LetoII.3782]

@Swagger.1459 said:

Do you have a link?

Nope!

[Swagger.1459]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

Do you have a link?

Nope!

Why nope? Surely you must have read, or seen in a video, where the devs discuss working on AoEs for WvW in the next patch...

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Maybe removing the ability to stack aoe’s, u can only take damage from the first aoe that player comes in contact with,. The damage of one isn’t bad it’s when multiple scourge’s etc start stacking them all over they tear they anything fast all while players are getting cc’d and immobilized in them. Reduce range as well maybe, prob bad suggestions bud aoe’s are definitely an issue.

[Straegen.2938]

The horse is already out of the barn but if they could roll back to the beginning I would bet a large sum of money that AoE attacks would be few in number. AoE attacks are directly responsible for most of the combat lag and cause serious balance issues.

[subversiontwo.7501]

This is a more complex topic than one may surmise at first glimpse.

There are some issues that are obvious:eg., the mistake of forgoing the 5-man norms in favour of 10-man mechanics on multiple skills for PvE raid reasons.eg., overall balance issues when it comes to ranged damage that has plagued PoF from start until present and remain insufficiently adressed.

There are other issues that are not so obvious:The amount of cleave affects size-balance where simply dropping down below the 5-man norm does not necessarily discourage blobbing or encourage roaming or clouding. Also, things are best adressed directly rather than indirectly. With some exceptions the spread of skills is not the issue but rather the damage (%mod stacking) and amount creep (eg., many weapon skills producing double conditions now that used to be single, similar for boons). The creep and spam is more so the issue than spread, again, with some notable recent exceptions (SYG, Shades etc.).

The recent treatment of SYG is a perfect example. In a low-mobility environment people appreciate whatever extra stability can be gained but from a design perspective it is problematic in longer term perspective because the 5-man party norm has served balanced quite well in this game over the years.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@"Swagger.1459" said:So you want to address the problem of "too many aoes"that's your first mistake right there, assuming I agreed with you.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Why not just start implementing diminishing returns on all buffs and AoEs? People can still use them, just after a certain amount they don't do as much. This would allow for more diversification in zerging because people would only want to optimize the amount of buffs and AoEs that could be used by each class.

[displayname.8315]

IMO AOE / DMG is not the problem. People are too scared to push a fight in this game.. like real scared and just never try. Also most don't use anything near an effective build.. good skill, trait and build choices makes all the difference.

[Skotlex.7580]

Or it could be that the issue is related to ranged damage in general. Previously, ranged attacks didn't cause that much trouble because there were a lot of reflect skills going on, the to point that rangers were unwanted in most squads.

In came pof, and now we have scourges with their aoes which are immune to these defenses, and then also came soulbeast with their unblockable high damage bursts.

Why wasn't revenant with their coalescence of ruin a big issue earlier, when it already had all the preconditions to be? I am guessing that a zerg with just revenants wouldn't work as well as having them be an addition to scourges, which lead to the current pirate ship meta.

It's all a really big mess, since everything is sky high: high damage, high immunities, high cleanses, high healing, high reflections and high unblockables, high CC spam, high stability / stunbreak spam... which only compounds into a higher issue when players group up with every skill affecting 5 targets.

Getting out of this situation would require multiple "nerfs" in many areas, and the process could take multiple balance passes, during which times the players will be highly unhappy (specially if damage is reduced first and we are back to bunker days).

In a strange way, the current setup works because you beat OP offensive skills with OP defensive ones. But it doesn't actually feels balanced because people either are immortal or die like flies in fire. I believe people want to feel like there's time to react to attacks and have a chance to strike back, on the very least I think people would like to be able to "clash into the opposite zerg and do some melee havoc before going down", but that's only doable with high teleport / evade uptime classes (like daredevil), or abusing cloak.

As long as an aoe can both "do high damage" and "stack with other player's aoe", the current "instant death" experience for zergs won't go away.

[displayname.8315]

Sniping and hammer rev spam? These things are a problem if you don't push the fight. Can't tell you how many times I've seen a push start but they are too scared to commit so they stop right inside the bomb.. then immediately start running away and full wipe.

Pretty much anyone on any class should be able to avoid the 1st push/bomb. It really is a skill gap.. I though we liked skill gap as gamers yes?