Extremely disappointed in the way some ArenaNet writers think about their playerbase

[Holykitten.3064]

@Memoranda.9386 said:She's sexist? Maybe. But I am fairly certain, as a woman, she has dealt with more sexism this month than any man has ever dealt with since... ever.

And that excuses her action of playing the gender card? When it wasn’t even remotely warranted? No it absolutely does not. I don’t personally care if the subject of JPs tweets was a content creator or not, it still doesn’t make it a sound judgment.Someone wanted to start a dialogue, given her personal Twitter account is directly associated with Anet and Gw2, she should have not replied if she didn’t want a discussion, or politely told this content creator to post a thread relating to said topic on this forum or Reddit. Then distancing herself and bringing the topic back to a professional platform where it should be.

Unprofessional as it allegedly is, most people are viewing this through tinted glasses.

This I can agree with. The phrase “know your audience” comes to mind and this content creator did not do his research (evidently! With JP being known to be a bit Explosive).JP also forgets her audience are Gw2 players amongst a host of other people, and this does not look good. On her. Or On Anet.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Sime.3681 said:Seriously, you are creating drama over something the dev posted on her PERSONAL TWITTER. PERSONAL. Reported for harassing.

Anything you post on the internet isnt personal, especially if it has on there any information regarding your job. Those of us in the military(at least my group) was taught to keep their opinions to themselves over political matters on the internet. Sure some dont, but they /do/ get in trouble for it, because its a

publicly

viewable space.

People have lost their jobs over things they have posted on facebook for this exact same reason, or very similiar reasons. Now i /hope/ that doesnt happen here honestly, but rudeness is rudeness and a publicly viewable person should be careful with what they say, and if not they should be prepared for the backlash.

That is of course my opinion.

Unfortunately you are correct, and that is actually bad management that is living in the past and trying to run a company in today's world with all the prevalent social media out there. The proper and modern way to handle these things is to distinguish between work and private life, the same thing they should be doing with athletes. What you say and do between the lines or on the job does reflect the company, what you say and do when on your PERSONAL time should not, and until corporate American learns this our country won't be able to have as much public discourse as it should. Trump is a perfect example, I hate the person and I think he's a complete idiot, but damned if he doesn't speak his mind...unfortunately most of the time it's stupid stuff, it was half ways intelligent then I wouldn't mind...and Political Correctness needs to thrown out the window, it has no place in this world...you either grow a pair and deal with it, or go live under a rock.

@Dreadshow.9320 said:

@Tasida.4085 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Tasida.4085 said:Oh come on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think some people are taking this a little too seriously. People and pc today, they act like it personally affects their lives if some1 has their own opinion. She never POINTED anyone specific out. Some people are just way to sensitive. It doesn't affect the players game time in anyway, so everyone keep chiving on and playing the game as you normally do.

I think she did. She literally quoted some guy's tweet with a caption of something like "A day in the life of a female game developer: someone telling me how to do my job" or some such.

Guess I skimmed over that bit. And that persons' life is just gonna be changed forever now I suppose (for the worst). OH THE HORRORS......smh

It's still inappropriate behavior for a professional to stoop down to that person's level. Every professional get told by clients, customers, business partners, random ppl on the street or internet how to do their job and keep doing their jobs whit out whining about being told how to do it by someone who is not their boss. I hope this is taken into account during her next salary review or contract renewal negotiation. If you have a kitten day at work you ask to leave 30 min early and go for a pint or a yoga or whatever makes you feel better.

Someone tells me how to do my job and I tell them to take a hike, only it not so nice of words, unless you happen to perform the same job as someone else or know how to do that job, NO ONE is entitled to tell someone else how to do a job...constructive criticism is completely different than telling someone how to do there job. Only idiots, assholes and rude people tell others how to do their job without having some kind of knowledge on how that job is supposed to be done in the first place. Also, you can't just up and leave 30 minutes early to go have a pint or do yoga, at least not here in America.

@Kenagin.3529 said:

@RoseofGilead.8907 said:

@Kenagin.3529 said:In case you guys don't know the guy she responds to is a respected content creator and he even has a NPC ingame.

So? I don't really get why that matters.

Just imagine your a manager/boss and some of your employees act like that to a partner/customer. (Whether he/she knows it or not) I would definitely be upset.

If it is on their PERSONAL time I could care less, I'm smart enough to know there's work time and PERSONAL time and the two do NOT cross over, that is a huge problem with corporate America today, they won't let employees have PERSONAL time anymore, they think that you belong to them 24/7. Sorry, I'm only subject to your rules when I'm on the clock or representing if it's job that requires a uniform. We need to change this mentality that you are always representing your employer so that people can be less stressed about what they say and do when not actually at work.

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@Sime.3681 said:Seriously, you are creating drama over something the dev posted on her PERSONAL TWITTER. PERSONAL. Reported for harassing.

Even on her "personal twitter account" she is representing her company, she even has this on her description. The moment people know who you are working for you are also representing the company you are working for. It might sound like BS but this is how it works, especially when people on the internet know who you are working for. So everything she does, is also reflecting back on Anet. She is doing great and puts out well thought out posts? Good for her and also for Anet. She snaps and does some real BS? Reflects really badly on Anet.

Never do something that puts a negative light on your company. Something that should be really taught more.

I'm quoting my answer from above, it's the same for your comment as well. This needs to get to the mainstream, maybe I'll start writing letters to the editors and start the movement myself. "If it is on their PERSONAL time I could care less, I'm smart enough to know there's work time and PERSONAL time and the two do NOT cross over, that is a huge problem with corporate America today, they won't let employees have PERSONAL time anymore, they think that you belong to them 24/7. Sorry, I'm only subject to your rules when I'm on the clock or representing if it's job that requires a uniform. We need to change this mentality that you are always representing your employer so that people can be less stressed about what they say and do when not actually at work."

P.S. - For those of us that want nothing to do with Twitter it would've been nice to post a link to either the initial statement/reply that started this whole thing, so as to get some context...but apparently that's to difficult for some people.

[sabloot.9254]

I can't believe what i saw on her twitter accountSomeone is trying to engage a cool discussion, respectfully ---> sexism. OK WELL, this is a normal reaction, for sureI think we're very close of a mental disorder

[Klowdy.3126]

@Tasida.4085 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Tasida.4085 said:Oh come on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think some people are taking this a little too seriously. People and pc today, they act like it personally affects their lives if some1 has their own opinion. She never POINTED anyone specific out. Some people are just way to sensitive. It doesn't affect the players game time in anyway, so everyone keep chiving on and playing the game as you normally do.

I think she did. She literally quoted some guy's tweet with a caption of something like "A day in the life of a female game developer: someone telling me how to do my job" or some such.

Guess I skimmed over that bit. And that persons' life is just gonna be changed forever now I suppose (for the worst). OH THE HORRORS......smh

Honestly, in a time where the leader of a country is constantly on Twitter, there is no need to diminish what that could do to someone and their credibility. Imagine that person tries to do anything the requires public perception, like politics, television, or even just a twitch streamer. Since twitter is now how most of the country communicates (for some stupid reason) that person has been labelled a sexist, and painted in a negative light, which, in turn, is seen by a huge portion of the country. Just because its social media doesn't mean it doesn't have ramifications, in fact, I would argue quite the opposite.

[Blocki.4931]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Memoranda.9386 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Memoranda.9386 said:

@Lord Krilik.3692 said:

@"Haleydawn.3764" said:Why are you throwing all Anet writers under the bus, for one devs actions on her Twitter account? She didn’t ask for an opinion, she stated an observation. She could’ve replied better, sure, but she didn’t actually ask for an opinion. Doesn’t really matter if it’s public or not, it’s her personal Twitter account, she can act how she likes on it. And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.Her best option, would have been to not reply at all.

You're right. She should have kept quiet. Instead she created a mess, and people aren't happy. I think it's fair to demand answers. She offended much of the player-base, and unprofessionally slandered a GW2 content creator. She was also extremely sexist, which never goes down well.

You are using these words with very specific legal meanings, and I don't think they mean what you think they mean. Has what she said demonstrably ruined, defamed or otherwise materially damaged his brand? Probably not. If anything, this has been excellent exposure!

Have you taken a poll of the entire community? I'm sure 95% of players have no idea this is even an issue. The people most upset seem to be supporters of the elusively named "respected content creator".

The last part is most intriguing, though. She's sexist? Maybe. But I am fairly certain, as a woman, she has dealt with more sexism this month than any man has ever dealt with since... ever. Unprofessional as it allegedly is, most people are viewing this through tinted glasses.

You're starting to show some sexism here.

The thing is, men usually suffer different kinds of sexism than women but it's not any less difficult to deal with. If anything, the reason men tend to not complain about sexism as much is because we've dealt with it for our whole lives even down to when your mom tells you "you gotta be the man of the house and protect everyone", it instills a different mentality that we are expected to suffer and struggle and sacrifice. It's a sign of equality that most mend

don't

bring up their hardships because it's supposed to be mutually understood that women suffer different difficulties just like we do and don't expect equal compensation.

You sound like an MRA schill. The

only

reason anyone cares is because she's a woman. I guarantee you that. There is

never

this scale of outrage when a man says/does much worse, and are typically forgiven or the events looked past in time.

Women's careers evaporate. It's a fact of life in the gaming industry that this happens. Remember any of the (InsertFemaleName)Gates?

It's a shame that, just by acknowledging that men can suffer, it sounds like MRA shilling. It should be a logical fact, just like water being wet, that men suffer as women suffer.

And I don't see the correlation. Because she's a woman? Women are a protected class. If a man spouts sexist or racist remarks, he's getting demoted or fired (or in my case, reprimanded, and/or moved to a new unit). In my time, it was extremely rare to see a female getting put in their place when they step out of line. It's only in the recent advent of youtube had I even seen such reactions. I'd say, men are just as readily put in their place as women, it's just people will feel remourse for a woman and brush the incident aside (see prison sentences for more).

As for woman's careers in gaming evaporating...do you think maybe they just lose interest? I've seen men's careers in that industry evaporate too...but it's because they find a better paying job lol.

Professional gamers die with the games they're good at.

Many of them get into absolutely horrible contracts when they are young, then they are 20, get dropped from their pro team because they start to become expensive, now they have to get back to school or whatever. Happens all the time, it's quite scary to be in that position I'd imagine,. Relevance can just vanish like that.

[Eme.2018]

@Leo G.4501 you said:

If that happened to other people in recent news, what makes J Price special and should be protected from the same backlash?

Wait, I don't understand. With the same logic we shouldn't try to stop famine because people have starved to death before.

You also said :

I don't think she should be disciplined for crap on Twitter either

I am missing something? Because this doesn't add up to me.

[OrbitalButt.5708]

I've spent the last while reading through this woman's Twitter and her going thermonuclear at perceived slights is par for the course, alongside some really loathsome stuff about "bootstraps" and throwing shade on poor people and PoC

I'm really struggling to find something reasonable to say but wowee zippy wow what a piece of work

[Kenagin.3529]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Sime.3681 said:Seriously, you are creating drama over something the dev posted on her PERSONAL TWITTER. PERSONAL. Reported for harassing.

Anything you post on the internet isnt personal, especially if it has on there any information regarding your job. Those of us in the military(at least my group) was taught to keep their opinions to themselves over political matters on the internet. Sure some dont, but they /do/ get in trouble for it, because its a

publicly

viewable space.

People have lost their jobs over things they have posted on facebook for this exact same reason, or very similiar reasons. Now i /hope/ that doesnt happen here honestly, but rudeness is rudeness and a publicly viewable person should be careful with what they say, and if not they should be prepared for the backlash.

That is of course my opinion.

Unfortunately you are correct, and that is actually bad management that is living in the past and trying to run a company in today's world with all the prevalent social media out there. The proper and modern way to handle these things is to distinguish between work and private life, the same thing they should be doing with athletes. What you say and do between the lines or on the job does reflect the company, what you say and do when on your PERSONAL time should not, and until corporate American learns this our country won't be able to have as much public discourse as it should. Trump is a perfect example, I hate the person and I think he's a complete idiot, but damned if he doesn't speak his mind...unfortunately most of the time it's stupid stuff, it was half ways intelligent then I wouldn't mind...and Political Correctness needs to thrown out the window, it has no place in this world...you either grow a pair and deal with it, or go live under a rock.

@Dreadshow.9320 said:

@Tasida.4085 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Tasida.4085 said:Oh come on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think some people are taking this a little too seriously. People and pc today, they act like it personally affects their lives if some1 has their own opinion. She never POINTED anyone specific out. Some people are just way to sensitive. It doesn't affect the players game time in anyway, so everyone keep chiving on and playing the game as you normally do.

I think she did. She literally quoted some guy's tweet with a caption of something like "A day in the life of a female game developer: someone telling me how to do my job" or some such.

Guess I skimmed over that bit. And that persons' life is just gonna be changed forever now I suppose (for the worst). OH THE HORRORS......smh

It's still inappropriate behavior for a professional to stoop down to that person's level. Every professional get told by clients, customers, business partners, random ppl on the street or internet how to do their job and keep doing their jobs whit out whining about being told how to do it by someone who is not their boss. I hope this is taken into account during her next salary review or contract renewal negotiation. If you have a kitten day at work you ask to leave 30 min early and go for a pint or a yoga or whatever makes you feel better.

Someone tells me how to do my job and I tell them to take a hike, only it not so nice of words, unless you happen to perform the same job as someone else or know how to do that job, NO ONE is entitled to tell someone else how to do a job...constructive criticism is completely different than telling someone how to do there job. Only idiots, kitten and rude people tell others how to do their job without having some kind of knowledge on how that job is supposed to be done in the first place. Also, you can't just up and leave 30 minutes early to go have a pint or do yoga, at least not here in America.

@Kenagin.3529 said:

@RoseofGilead.8907 said:

@Kenagin.3529 said:In case you guys don't know the guy she responds to is a respected content creator and he even has a NPC ingame.

So? I don't really get why that matters.

Just imagine your a manager/boss and some of your employees act like that to a partner/customer. (Whether he/she knows it or not) I would definitely be upset.

If it is on their PERSONAL time I could care less, I'm smart enough to know there's work time and PERSONAL time and the two do NOT cross over, that is a huge problem with corporate America today, they won't let employees have PERSONAL time anymore, they think that you belong to them 24/7. Sorry, I'm only subject to your rules when I'm on the clock or representing if it's job that requires a uniform. We need to change this mentality that you are always representing your employer so that people can be less stressed about what they say and do when not actually at work.

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@Sime.3681 said:Seriously, you are creating drama over something the dev posted on her PERSONAL TWITTER. PERSONAL. Reported for harassing.

Even on her "personal twitter account" she is representing her company, she even has this on her description. The moment people know who you are working for you are also representing the company you are working for. It might sound like BS but this is how it works, especially when people on the internet know who you are working for. So everything she does, is also reflecting back on Anet. She is doing great and puts out well thought out posts? Good for her and also for Anet. She snaps and does some real BS? Reflects really badly on Anet.

Never do something that puts a negative light on your company. Something that should be really taught more.

I'm quoting my answer from above, it's the same for your comment as well. This needs to get to the mainstream, maybe I'll start writing letters to the editors and start the movement myself. "If it is on their PERSONAL time I could care less, I'm smart enough to know there's work time and PERSONAL time and the two do NOT cross over, that is a huge problem with corporate America today, they won't let employees have PERSONAL time anymore, they think that you belong to them 24/7. Sorry, I'm only subject to your rules when I'm on the clock or representing if it's job that requires a uniform. We need to change this mentality that you are always representing your employer so that people can be less stressed about what they say and do when not actually at work."

You are forgetting an important point. She is calling out to someone who is earning profit for Anet, who wants to have a discussion with her about a post she made. She has Anet in her description. She talks about her job. And everyone knows its about her job at Anet. Of course she has her personal time, but things she says on the public internet might affect the company she works for.

[Leo G.4501]

@Eme.2018 said:@"Leo G.4501" you said:

If that happened to other people in recent news, what makes J Price special and should be protected from the same backlash?

Wait, I don't understand. With the same logic we shouldn't try to stop famine because people have starved to death before.

You also said :

I don't think she should be disciplined for crap on Twitter either

I am missing something? Because this doesn't add up to me.

The missing piece is "degree of punishment". I don't think anything at her job should change, but I think she needs to be roasted on these forums or twitter or reddit or wherever until she feels she's been adaquately "mansplained" how to treat her company's playerbase and criticism as a whole.

[Xenon.4537]

I've spent today reading through JP's tweets (both new and old) and I honestly get the impression she has prejudice for males. It's blatantly obvious. On top of that a few days ago she was abusive to MMOINKS, and today she was abusive to Deroir. There are countless people trying to get into this industry who would love to have the job JP has. Yet this is how she decides to treat fans of the game. It's disgraceful. She has no respect for the people who are customers of her employer. It is simply unacceptable for an Arenanet employee to publicly trash talk and name-call someone who is an official Arenanet partner.

[Batel.9206]

@Memoranda.9386 said:The last part is most intriguing, though. She's sexist? Maybe. But I am fairly certain, as a woman, she has dealt with more sexism this month than any man has ever dealt with since... ever. Unprofessional as it allegedly is, most people are viewing this through tinted glasses.

So what?I've been treated like dirt for a good part of my life, some of it by people I trusted dearly and thought I could depend on: my friends and some of my family. It has really, really hurt.Does that give me an excuse to treat others like dirt?No.Neither does perceived sexism give Price an excuse to be sexist in return.

[Blocki.4931]

@Xenon.4537 said:I've spent today reading through JP's tweets (both new and old) and I honestly get the impression she has prejudice for males. It's blatantly obvious. On top of that a few days ago she was abusive to MMOINKS, and today she was abusive to Deroir. There are countless people trying to get into this industry who would love to have the job JP has. Yet this is how she decides to treat fans of the game. It's disgraceful. She has no respect for the people who are customers of her employer. It is simply unacceptable for an Arenanet employee to publicly trash talk and name-call someone who is an official Arenanet partner.

What did she say to INKS? He's like the nicest guy ever.. And I am blocked before ever interacting with her :)

[Xenon.4537]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@"Xenon.4537" said:I've spent today reading through JP's tweets (both new and old) and I honestly get the impression she has prejudice for males. It's blatantly obvious. On top of that a few days ago she was abusive to MMOINKS, and today she was abusive to Deroir. There are countless people trying to get into this industry who would love to have the job JP has. Yet this is how she decides to treat fans of the game. It's disgraceful. She has no respect for the people who are customers of her employer. It is simply unacceptable for an Arenanet employee to publicly trash talk and name-call someone who is an official Arenanet partner.

What did she say to INKS? He's like the nicest guy ever.. And I am blocked before ever interacting with her :)

She told him and I quote "Sure, dude. Now get out of my f***ing feed with your assumptions and your entitlement to my time." among other things. It was the same situation as Deroir. Inks was trying to engage in a polite discussion and she went nuclear on him. If you want to see the thread you can try opening an incognito tab or logging out of twitter. That will allow you to view tweets of people who have blocked you. Honestly it makes you wonder whats the point of blocking.

[Leo G.4501]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Xenon.4537 said:I've spent today reading through JP's tweets (both new and old) and I honestly get the impression she has prejudice for males. It's blatantly obvious. On top of that a few days ago she was abusive to MMOINKS, and today she was abusive to Deroir. There are countless people trying to get into this industry who would love to have the job JP has. Yet this is how she decides to treat fans of the game. It's disgraceful. She has no respect for the people who are customers of her employer. It is simply unacceptable for an Arenanet employee to publicly trash talk and name-call someone who is an official Arenanet partner.

What did she say to INKS? He's like the nicest guy ever.. And I am blocked before ever interacting with her :)

You must be swimming in the pool of wrongthink.

[Alukah.2063]

@Memoranda.9386 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Memoranda.9386 said:

@Lord Krilik.3692 said:

@"Haleydawn.3764" said:Why are you throwing all Anet writers under the bus, for one devs actions on her Twitter account? She didn’t ask for an opinion, she stated an observation. She could’ve replied better, sure, but she didn’t actually ask for an opinion. Doesn’t really matter if it’s public or not, it’s her personal Twitter account, she can act how she likes on it. And guess what, Anet will decide how to handle it, not us on the forum.Her best option, would have been to not reply at all.

You're right. She should have kept quiet. Instead she created a mess, and people aren't happy. I think it's fair to demand answers. She offended much of the player-base, and unprofessionally slandered a GW2 content creator. She was also extremely sexist, which never goes down well.

You are using these words with very specific legal meanings, and I don't think they mean what you think they mean. Has what she said demonstrably ruined, defamed or otherwise materially damaged his brand? Probably not. If anything, this has been excellent exposure!

Have you taken a poll of the entire community? I'm sure 95% of players have no idea this is even an issue. The people most upset seem to be supporters of the elusively named "respected content creator".

The last part is most intriguing, though. She's sexist? Maybe. But I am fairly certain, as a woman, she has dealt with more sexism this month than any man has ever dealt with since... ever. Unprofessional as it allegedly is, most people are viewing this through tinted glasses.

You're starting to show some sexism here.

The thing is, men usually suffer different kinds of sexism than women but it's not any less difficult to deal with. If anything, the reason men tend to not complain about sexism as much is because we've dealt with it for our whole lives even down to when your mom tells you "you gotta be the man of the house and protect everyone", it instills a different mentality that we are expected to suffer and struggle and sacrifice. It's a sign of equality that most mend

don't

bring up their hardships because it's supposed to be mutually understood that women suffer different difficulties just like we do and don't expect equal compensation.

You sound like an MRA schill. The

only

reason anyone cares is because she's a woman. I guarantee you that. There is

never

this scale of outrage when a man says/does much worse, and are typically forgiven or the events looked past in time.

Women's careers evaporate. It's a fact of life in the gaming industry that this happens. Remember any of the (InsertFemaleName)Gates?

This has nothing to do with her being a woman, because Peter Fries is as wrong as she is. She is insulting GW2 players on her twitter, your gender is completely irrelevant once you cross that line.

[Zushada.6108]

I think it is highly inappropriate to bring that discussion here. People have every right to speak and say what they want on social media; just like you had a right to speak up about this topic here. However, Reddit already has a forum this can be discussed and attempting to get someone in trouble with their employer for something they said on a 3rd party social media is just inappropriate and cruel. Hold yourself to a higher standard please and lets get back to discussing the game.

[MiskoV.3856]

You are forgetting an important point. She is calling out to someone who is earning profit for Anet, who wants to have a discussion with her about a post she made. She has Anet in her description. She talks about her job. And everyone knows its about her job at Anet. Of course she has her personal time, but things she says on the public internet might affect the company she works for.

They already do, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Everyone is free to have their own opinion or hate particular groups of people. However, they have to keep in mind that if they are responding officially, to an official question, on an officail account, signed with the company's signature and even go as far as to quote a perticular person then they speak for the company itself. It is really as simple as that.

Nowadays, companies take it even further and make their employees responsible for what they say on their private accounts as well. No self-respecting company wants to be even remotely associated with people who have obvious problems or are just simply haters.

It's a bad PR you see.

[Blocki.4931]

@Xenon.4537 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Xenon.4537 said:I've spent today reading through JP's tweets (both new and old) and I honestly get the impression she has prejudice for males. It's blatantly obvious. On top of that a few days ago she was abusive to MMOINKS, and today she was abusive to Deroir. There are countless people trying to get into this industry who would love to have the job JP has. Yet this is how she decides to treat fans of the game. It's disgraceful. She has no respect for the people who are customers of her employer. It is simply unacceptable for an Arenanet employee to publicly trash talk and name-call someone who is an official Arenanet partner.

What did she say to INKS? He's like the nicest guy ever.. And I am blocked before ever interacting with her :)

She told him and I quote "Sure, dude. Now get out of my f***ing feed with your assumptions and your entitlement to my time." among other things. It was the same situation as Deroir. Inks was trying to engage in a polite discussion and she went nuclear on him. If you want to see the thread you can try opening an incognito tab or logging out of twitter. That will allow you to view tweets of people who have blocked you. Honestly it makes you wonder whats the point of blocking.

It's funny how being logged in has become so natural that you forget that you can log out lmao thanks.

So I really have to applaud this woman. That is getting really damn close to bullying if not already

[Forum Moderator.4372]

Hey folks,

We're going to go ahead and close this for review as it's devolved into arguments and veered from constructive discussion.