Thief (Deadeye) vs Elementalist (Weaver)

[Catchyfx.5768]

it is a principle, and in game is more then just bossfights you know.

Single Target > multitarget

[Feanor.2358]

@"InsaneQR.7412" said:Weaver is for PvE in a good place IMO, its mobility is more usable for open PvE but as far as i played it, it is fantastic dmg wise.Thiefs have more setup/ramp up time, but later on the easier rotation and they are bound to initiative in some cases although this isnt that big of a deal IMO.

Weaver is in a good place if you're a skilled ele main with hundreds or thousands of hours practice. Otherwise it's trash. Zero utility, utter reliance on the group and complex gameplay which amount to unreliable and lacking performance. Just pick a holo.This kind of niche is anything but healthy. It creates a "catch 22" for the ele. It's not worth playing one unless you're very good, but you can't become very good unless you play it a LOT.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"steki.1478" said:

Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

Weaver (staff):

• minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)
• aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)
• single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)
• minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.EDIT: Just discovered that ele is no longer good for raids, in that case you can just ignore this post

That's an understatement. Ele is no longer good for anything, not just raids.

Still a premier class in WvW.

Lul wut?

Yeah. Ele is an absolute staple in WvW.

No it isn't. Ele is something you like to have around, but not something you want your squad filled with. And it's also something you can live without. The staples of WvW? Firebrands, Scourges and Spellbreakers. You'll see these used everywhere, every time. Long-range artilleries like eles and hammer revs are optional. Those 3? Mandatory.

If you do not have a source of AoE damage your zerg accomplishes nothing.

You don't want your zerg "filled" with anything as far as the dominant professions go; you'll wipe for X or Y reason otherwise.We're still in the GWE/RN era; there's just less of a focus on eles than in previous metas and more of an emphasis on scourge as a consequence of the boon powercreep since HoT and beyond.

[steki.1478]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:

If you do not have a source of AoE damage your zerg accomplishes nothing.

You don't want your zerg "filled" with anything as far as the dominant professions go; you'll wipe for X or Y reason otherwise.We're still in the GWE/RN era; there's just less of a focus on eles than in previous metas and more of an emphasis on scourge as a consequence of the boon powercreep since HoT and beyond.

Scourges and heralds already bring enough aoes which hit more reliably. They also bring valuable group support which is the reason why you stack them. You stack anything that's not herald, scourge and firebrand - you lose easily because you either have weak frontline or you dont have enough corrupts to stop enemy.

Both warrior and ele are replaceable, but you still want at least few of each because they offer big zone control. Ele brings damage, but so do herald and scourge on top of group sustain. Ele brings ranged CC, but so do herald, scourge and chrono on top of sustain. Warrior brings boon rip, but so do scourges (corrupts being much better than rips), on top of damage from range and group sustain. Basically both of those are hit or miss - you either stomp enemy if you catch them in your aoes or just watch them avoid those aoes with ease., but they are far from staple. The only reason why you see people complain about warr bubbles or why meteors do such high damage is because people just dont know how to avoid long animations and huge aoe indicators. If ele was in a good spot, it would be useful in organized gvg's, but since all of it's potential is forced on MS due to nerfs, it's useless because good people can actually walk out of it. Warr doesnt have that issue since it's extremely strong in melee fights, with or without elite skill.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Ele should do better Cleave damage.Thief should do better single-target damage.

It just makes sense and it's easy.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Weaver should push out more damage.Weaver is higher risk haveing its most effect burst fa sc/d/f being max ranged of 900.while deadeye has 1200 range, stealth, quickness, and unblockable. This combination is unparalleled when compaired to what a weaver can do in terms of damage and bursting potential.

My point of view is from a pvper though so i think this is wprth mentioning as pve and pvp should have different attributes or damage models for skills.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Compromise: Deadeye deals more damage, but Weaver brings almost as much damage plus utility.

I'd like to see the barrier aspect of Weaver emphasized more. Water options, such as rezzing, should certainly be more available as well.

Sure, we can spam 5111 Deadeye, but wouldn't it be cooler to have a Weaver that can do things like auto-breaking stuns, cleansing conditions, granting auras,, and preventing downs? What about being able to spread their aoes to far objectives like Xera crystals, without reducing damage on the boss?

On second thought, this is reminds me a lot of Tempest. Nerfing them was a mistake.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@"Kain Francois.4328" said:Compromise: Deadeye deals more damage, but Weaver brings almost as much damage plus utility.

I'd like to see the barrier aspect of Weaver emphasized more. Water options, such as rezzing, should certainly be more available as well.

Sure, we can spam 5111 Deadeye, but wouldn't it be cooler to have a Weaver that can do things like auto-breaking stuns, cleansing conditions, granting auras,, and preventing downs? What about being able to spread their aoes to far objectives like Xera crystals, without reducing damage on the boss?

On second thought, this is reminds me a lot of Tempest. Nerfing them was a mistake.

Here's the thing about optimization, though.

If the ele can do all of that enough to be impactful, then it's making another class redundant.

Otherwise, it won't be doing any of it well enough to justify the ele itself.

As far as optimized PvE goes, the professions will never be balanced. It's literally a hopeless task.

Regardless of the state of the elementalist, what people need to start realizing is that "good enough" is just that: good enough.

[steki.1478]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Compromise: Deadeye deals more damage, but Weaver brings almost as much damage plus utility.

I'd like to see the barrier aspect of Weaver emphasized more. Water options, such as rezzing, should certainly be more available as well.

Sure, we can spam 5111 Deadeye, but wouldn't it be cooler to have a Weaver that can do things like auto-breaking stuns, cleansing conditions, granting auras,, and preventing downs? What about being able to spread their aoes to far objectives like Xera crystals, without reducing damage on the boss?

On second thought, this is reminds me a lot of Tempest. Nerfing them was a mistake.

That's job for support class in the group, not dps. In fact, all dps builds should have utility part of their DPS setups toned down and moved to specific weapon sets or utility skills. That way everyone can do dps and everyone can bring utility, but with a dps loss and not at the same time (something like banners and maces on warr; engi has tons of CC in its dps builds and quite strong aoe heal and cleanse from heal turret).

Nerfing tempest had to happen to avoid situation where you could do high dps and provide a lot of utility at (almost) the same time.

[Feanor.2358]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Compromise: Deadeye deals more damage, but Weaver brings almost as much damage plus utility.

I'd like to see the barrier aspect of Weaver emphasized more. Water options, such as rezzing, should certainly be more available as well.

Sure, we can spam 5111 Deadeye, but wouldn't it be cooler to have a Weaver that can do things like auto-breaking stuns, cleansing conditions, granting auras,, and preventing downs? What about being able to spread their aoes to far objectives like Xera crystals, without reducing damage on the boss?

On second thought, this is reminds me a lot of Tempest. Nerfing them was a mistake.

That's Tempest you're thinking of. And also a support spec, not a dps one. And also an irrelevant one, since it's all about defence. In the context of PvE, the only viable supports are the offensive ones.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

One is Pure single target and the other has range aoe cleave that no other class has.

[hugo.4705]

Definitely weaver, would have said deadeye some times ago, but he is fine now and deal a serious amount of damages (THATSALOTOFDAMAGE) but for weaver I can't really compare, weaver is okay but IMO not enough armor/support, deal correct damages but seem to be made of glass. I mostly use fire and air elements, water and earth look very weak for me: Earth could be cool if the last skill don't have an enormous cast time "churning earth" with dagger. Also fire shield isn't that useful.

[Feanor.2358]

@"hugo.4705" said:Definitely weaver, would have said deadeye some times ago, but he is fine now and deal a serious amount of damages (THATSALOTOFDAMAGE) but for weaver I can't really compare, weaver is okay but IMO not enough armor/support, deal correct damages but seem to be made of glass. I mostly use fire and air elements, water and earth look very weak for me: Earth could be cool if the last skill don't have an enormous cast time "churning earth" with dagger. Also fire shield isn't that useful.

Correct damage? This level of damage is pretty useless for the amount of effort involved. It doesn't matter if it became more tanky, it would still be underwhelming.

[hugo.4705]

Of course if you try to see the weaver strong for pvp/wvw I agree with you, correct for me in pve because I can easily deal with veterans and groups of enemies without getting downed, only that is a good point for a class/spec for me, of course I don't wipe my enemies like with my holosmith or reaper or deadeye, but weaver could be worse. I tried mirage not a long time ago, my weaver dealt more damage than him. Again, I think that an increase of armor and critical rate can make a great difference.

[Feanor.2358]

Mirage is FAR better for soloing stuff than weaver. But I'm actually talking about high-end group content, where damage output actually matters.