Thief (Deadeye) vs Elementalist (Weaver)

[Scar.1793]

Both can be deleted from the game for all I care tbh

[Coolguy.8702]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

Ele has fire and water fields, frostbow and hammer which can be very beneficial a times. Thief has nothing at all, even necro has more utility, which is pretty damn sad

[LazySummer.2568]

@Frozey.8513 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

I mean if we continue with that logic:saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

going by that logic you can also equip a sword/dagger or sword/pistol in 2nd weapon set to get access to not only more evades but also more utility like boon steal and cc, genius. because i mean 9s of dps loss isnt a thing and you should really learn to play thief seriously first before making a comment am i right?

[Feanor.2358]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

Ele has fire and water fields, frostbow and hammer which can be very beneficial a times. Thief has nothing at all, even necro has more utility, which is pretty kitten sad

Basi Venom. Much more useful than all "water & fire fields". Since, you know, both healing and might are covered by other classes.

[Coolguy.8702]

@"Feanor.2358" said:

Basi Venom. Much more useful than all "water & fire fields". Since, you know, both healing and might are covered by other classes.

Venom is trash lol, its only good for breaking defiance bars, which rev mesmer and ele already do a much better job off. Theres no reason a faceroll class packed with damage buffs should be able to hit harder than a class with noyhing useful at all

[Frozey.8513]

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Frozey.8513 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

I mean if we continue with that logic:saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

going by that logic you can also equip a sword/dagger or sword/pistol in 2nd weapon set to get access to not only more evades but also more utility like boon steal and cc, genius. because i mean 9s of dps loss isnt a thing and you should really learn to play thief seriously first before making a comment am i right?

Interesting comment!disagreeing slightly intensifiesYeah I do agree on 2nd weapon set on Thief can bring more to the table if you want to look at it that way. However I don't see that as same level of utility as that what Ele can bring to the table when both are running optimal dps equipment and builds. Main argument here is still that DE has purely damage and nearly nothing else to give to the group, while Ele has bigger selection of utility to bring to the table if the need should arise.

[TanksK.4795]

Venom is trash lol, its only good for breaking defiance bars, which rev mesmer and ele already do a much better job off. Theres no reason a faceroll class packed with damage buffs should be able to hit harder than a class with noyhing useful at all

It's only good for breakbar ofc.........What other use of venom? to poison your kitten?

Rev is the only class that I agree with your argument. CC+ Dps buff. You are correct. if If I think right, you were talking about rev...if not

Ele is faceroll and damage buff? CC? I mean what ele can do right now is a damage buff to power reaper maybe...…… god

[LazySummer.2568]

@Frozey.8513 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Frozey.8513 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Deadeye because unlike eles they have no utilitys to give to the group. All they have is dps which is why they should be the best at it

Saying that ele has utility shows that you've never played one seriously.

I mean if we continue with that logic:saying that Ele doesn't have utility shows that you've never attuned to Water :joy:

going by that logic you can also equip a sword/dagger or sword/pistol in 2nd weapon set to get access to not only more evades but also more utility like boon steal and cc, genius. because i mean 9s of dps loss isnt a thing and you should really learn to play thief seriously first before making a comment am i right?

Interesting comment!

disagreeing slightly intensifies

Yeah I do agree on 2nd weapon set on Thief can bring more to the table if you want to look at it that way. However I don't see that as same level of utility as that what Ele can bring to the table when both are running optimal dps equipment and builds. Main argument here is still that DE has purely damage and nearly nothing else to give to the group, while Ele has bigger selection of utility to bring to the table if the need should arise.

I mean, the optimal DE build only use 1 set of weapon. It's either dagger/dagger or rifle; you don't even do those condi build things where you swap to the same set of weapons just to proc sigil of geomancy. The attunement swapping on ele is literally weapon swapping on other classes (except engi) that's why they were balanced to have only 1 weapon set allowed. It is just your personal opinion that you think being able to put down water fields with negligible healing on a dps build means more utility. I would personally say being able to equip basi venom to do a pretty good cc with minimal dps loss is better utility. If you bring in 2nd weapon set of thief, the various spammable ccs, blind/smoke fields, boon removal are also utility. Rifle also have a projectile destruction by default.

Saying DE has only pure damage is just false.

[Ephemiel.5694]

For all intents and purposes, Weaver should push out more damage. It's a melee spec on a mage with bigger rotations to work with.

[Feanor.2358]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:

Basi Venom. Much more useful than all "water & fire fields". Since, you know, both healing and might are covered by other classes.

Venom is trash lol, its only good for breaking defiance bars, which rev mesmer and ele already do a much better job off. Theres no reason a faceroll class packed with damage buffs should be able to hit harder than a class with noyhing useful at all

Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

[Coolguy.8702]

@Feanor.2358 said:

Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

Keep telling yourself that.

[steki.1478]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

Keep telling yourself that.

How do you do 750 CC on staff ele with 500 dps loss in a second or two?

[Feanor.2358]

@steki.1478 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

Keep telling yourself that.

How do you do 750 CC on staff ele with 500 dps loss in a second or two?

You don't. But good luck explaining that to the fanbois with the ridiculously OP build.

[steki.1478]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

Ele does zero defiance bar damage, unless you're OK with losing all dps for it.

Keep telling yourself that.

How do you do 750 CC on staff ele with 500 dps loss in a second or two?

You don't. But good luck explaining that to the fanbois with the ridiculously OP build.

Today in being an ele main

"Allow me -a non weaver player- explain to you how you do your job"

[Coolguy.8702]

@"steki.1478" said:

"Allow me -a non weaver player- explain to you how you do your job"

Ele/weaver is actually my second main for raids, first being support chrono. I have no issues getting into groups and most of the time im top dps, Only thing that can outdps me recently is a well played deadeye which is justified with reasons above.

I think in general the ele community is entitled. Always want to be number 1 in everything and lose your shit when you finally see another class put out more dps for once.

[steki.1478]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"steki.1478" said:

"Allow me -a non weaver player- explain to you how you do your job"

Ele/weaver is actually my second main for raids, first being support chrono. I have no issues getting into groups and most of the time im top dps, Only thing that can outdps me recently is a well played deadeye which is justified with reasons above.

I think in general the ele community is entitled. Always want to be number 1 in everything and lose your kitten when you finally see another class put out more dps for once.

Then it'd be easier for you to explain how you break the breakbars while maintaining top dps spot.

I have no problem of condi engi having 5k dps more than weaver, but that's because it's the only build besides weaver where you have to pay attention to your skill bar and positioning while managing 10 invisible cooldowns. I also have no problem of thief having more damage overall (positioning, squishy, "no utility" etc.) if ele gets bigger burst due to more effort. Has nothing to do with entitlement, but half a*sed comments about valuable utility you get by swapping to water or earth, which is straight up false.

[Coolguy.8702]

@"steki.1478" said:

Then it'd be easier for you to explain how you break the breakbars while maintaining top dps spot.

Simple, air lightning field, then go to earth, then hammer. It might not seem like much, but most of the time your squad gets it done before you can even combo it.

I have no problem of condi engi having 5k dps more than weaver, but that's because it's the only build besides weaver where you have to pay attention to your skill bar and positioning while managing 10 invisible cooldowns. I also have no problem of thief having more damage overall (positioning, squishy, "no utility" etc.) if ele gets bigger burst due to more effort. Has nothing to do with entitlement, but half a*sed comments about valuable utility you get by swapping to water or earth, which is straight up false.

I never said swapping to water or earth brings good utility, i just pointed out that all the combo fields ele has along with lightning hammer and frostbow can be some great utility. Matter of fact, only 4 classes have better utility, which you should know

[steki.1478]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"steki.1478" said:

Then it'd be easier for you to explain how you break the breakbars while maintaining top dps spot.

Simple, air lightning field, then go to earth, then hammer. It might not seem like much, but most of the time your squad gets it done before you can even combo it.

I have no problem of condi engi having 5k dps more than weaver, but that's because it's the only build besides weaver where you have to pay attention to your skill bar and positioning while managing 10 invisible cooldowns. I also have no problem of thief having more damage overall (positioning, squishy, "no utility" etc.) if ele gets bigger burst due to more effort. Has nothing to do with entitlement, but half a*sed comments about valuable utility you get by swapping to water or earth, which is straight up false.

I never said swapping to water or earth brings good utility, i just pointed out that all the combo fields ele has along with lightning hammer and frostbow can be some great utility. Matter of fact, only 4 classes have better utility, which you should know

How much time does it take do get static field on weaver? How often does it actually trigger when placed? How often do you have conjured weapon ready as skill or placed beneath you to pick up? How much breakbar damage does it all do and over what time? If squad can cover it by the time you use any of your cc, what's the point of casting it and what's the point of it being considered an utility?

I can name at least 2 skills from every class that can both bring more to the squad and much faster than weaver can. Sure some if them will have to be utilities which come with dps loss, but so does everything on weaver when you dont stick to your rotation. And even if you wanted to bring a helpful utility skill as weaver, you wouldn't be able to because all of them are either dps focused and worse than meta build ones or selfish and useless in raid context.

You mentioned 4, but warr, guard, engi, ranger and mesmer can all bring strong cc / quick cleanses / aoe blocks / some aoe heals (support builds not included) or more than one with virtually no dps loss (fb/dh F2-3 are bigger loss though). That leaves us with rev who can almost solo any breakbar in game (or bring passive buffs from AP and kalla with decent cc), necro which has only seen good groups due to abusive epidemic (scourge has barriers, cleanses and whatnots, but reaper* barely gives anything to the group) and thief whose basi venom can be useless in mob heavy fights, but skills still have no cd and most of the time it uses only one weapon, so CC isnt hard to come by.

* forgot that reaper also comes with big cc output (both hard and soft cc) and potential vampiric aura for minor group dps and sustain boost.

So in the end, excluding meme builds' dps (scrapper and tempest), weaver's utility is only on par with thief builds, and they were all balanced in dps before latest MS fix.

[Feanor.2358]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@"steki.1478" said:

"Allow me -a non weaver player- explain to you how you do your job"

Ele/weaver is actually my second main for raids, first being support chrono. I have no issues getting into groups and most of the time im top dps, Only thing that can outdps me recently is a well played deadeye which is justified with reasons above.

I think in general the ele community is entitled. Always want to be number 1 in everything and lose your kitten when you finally see another class put out more dps for once.

That's because it is utterly stupid. Playing an ele incurs a lot more risk and getting lower results simply means there's no good reason to pick one. I wouldn't have a problem if it were an actual complex build. But it isn't.

[Coolguy.8702]

@steki.1478 said:

How much time does it take do get static field on weaver? How often does it actually trigger when placed? How often do you have conjured weapon ready as skill or placed beneath you to pick up? How much breakbar damage does it all do and over what time? If squad can cover it by the time you use any of your cc, what's the point of casting it and what's the point of it being considered an utility?

I can name at least 2 skills from every class that can both bring more to the squad and much faster than weaver can. Sure some if them will have to be utilities which come with dps loss, but so does everything on weaver when you dont stick to your rotation. And even if you wanted to bring a helpful utility skill as weaver, you wouldn't be able to because all of them are either dps focused and worse than meta build ones or selfish and useless in raid context.

You mentioned 4, but warr, guard, engi, ranger and mesmer can all bring strong cc / quick cleanses / aoe blocks / some aoe heals (support builds not included) or more than one with virtually no dps loss (fb/dh F2-3 are bigger loss though). That leaves us with rev who can almost solo any breakbar in game (or bring passive buffs from AP and kalla with decent cc), necro which has only seen good groups due to abusive epidemic (scourge has barriers, cleanses and whatnots, but reaper* barely gives anything to the group) and thief whose basi venom can be useless in mob heavy fights, but skills still have no cd and most of the time it uses only one weapon, so CC isnt hard to come by.

* forgot that reaper also comes with big cc output (both hard and soft cc) and potential vampiric aura for minor group dps and sustain boost.

So in the end, excluding meme builds' dps (scrapper and tempest), weaver's utility is only on par with thief builds, and they were all balanced in dps before latest MS fix.

You tell me, thats exactly how i felt when the other dude said basilik venom was great utility.

Please do so

Engi has group utility???? Lol ik for sure ele has more. Guard has even less utility, unless you go firebrand but druid is much better healing and it offers damage buffs with might stacking. And reaper is just straight trash, lol....

Ele still has better utility than half the classes, only rev, warr, ranger and mesmer have more.

[steki.1478]

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@steki.1478 said:

How much time does it take do get static field on weaver? How often does it actually trigger when placed? How often do you have conjured weapon ready as skill or placed beneath you to pick up? How much breakbar damage does it all do and over what time? If squad can cover it by the time you use any of your cc, what's the point of casting it and what's the point of it being considered an utility?

I can name at least 2 skills from every class that can both bring more to the squad and much faster than weaver can. Sure some if them will have to be utilities which come with dps loss, but so does everything on weaver when you dont stick to your rotation. And even if you wanted to bring a helpful utility skill as weaver, you wouldn't be able to because all of them are either dps focused and worse than meta build ones or selfish and useless in raid context.

You mentioned 4, but warr, guard, engi, ranger and mesmer can all bring strong cc / quick cleanses / aoe blocks / some aoe heals (support builds not included) or more than one with virtually no dps loss (fb/dh F2-3 are bigger loss though). That leaves us with rev who can almost solo any breakbar in game (or bring passive buffs from AP and kalla with decent cc), necro which has only seen good groups due to abusive epidemic (scourge has barriers, cleanses and whatnots, but reaper* barely gives anything to the group) and thief whose basi venom can be useless in mob heavy fights, but skills still have no cd and most of the time it uses only one weapon, so CC isnt hard to come by.

* forgot that reaper also comes with big cc output (both hard and soft cc) and potential vampiric aura for minor group dps and sustain boost.

So in the end, excluding meme builds' dps (scrapper and tempest), weaver's utility is only on par with thief builds, and they were all balanced in dps before latest MS fix.

You tell me, thats exactly how i felt when the other dude said basilik venom was great utility.

Please do so

Engi has group utility???? Lol ik for sure ele has more. Guard has even less utility, unless you go firebrand but druid is much better healing and it offers damage buffs with might stacking. And reaper is just straight trash, lol....

Ele still has better utility than half the classes, only rev, warr, ranger and mesmer have more.

Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

Weaver (staff):

• minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)
• aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)
• single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)
• minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

[derd.6413]

i don't care as long as they're both equally viable

[Feanor.2358]

@Coolguy.8702 said:Ele still has better utility than half the classes, only rev, warr, ranger and mesmer have more.

Riiiight. Are you playing the same game? :lol:

[MyPuppy.8970]

For balance's sake, Sword should do more damage than riffle. As for staff, it already does less damage on small hitbox single targets, but it's only logical it does more damage on groups and larger hitbox.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.