New boss release rate

[Etheri.5406]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I can agree with @Etheri.5406. He is making a lot of good points and I can admit that

despite having him on my ingame blocklist for annoying me in WvW lol.

Were you on ranger? :thinking:

I find it funny that GW2 was designed as a no-grind game. You don't "need" to do fractals. Yet they were added for vertical progression, with rewards and incentives. Players grinded it to fractal god, then realised they didn't even enjoy the gameplay anymore.

I find it sad the community asks anet to make the game more grindy and "rewarding", then grinds that content & those rewards until it's neither fun or rewarding anymore; then blames anet for it. The game allows you to play whatever you find fun. If you're farming fractals because you feel like you need to you're making questionable life decisions.

I wish anet would make more FUN content, rather than REWARDING content. But hey, what do I know ;) No forum credibility :trollface:

MMO can't exist without a grind.

Why is every post you make a one-liner? Unless you actually reason your position there's really no point in posting.

So you agree?

For players with an attention span of 30 seconds and no ability to reason beyond 2 sentences, I agree.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I can agree with @Etheri.5406. He is making a lot of good points and I can admit that

despite having him on my ingame blocklist for annoying me in WvW lol.

Were you on ranger? :thinking:

I find it funny that GW2 was designed as a no-grind game. You don't "need" to do fractals. Yet they were added for vertical progression, with rewards and incentives. Players grinded it to fractal god, then realised they didn't even enjoy the gameplay anymore.

I find it sad the community asks anet to make the game more grindy and "rewarding", then grinds that content & those rewards until it's neither fun or rewarding anymore; then blames anet for it. The game allows you to play whatever you find fun. If you're farming fractals because you feel like you need to you're making questionable life decisions.

I wish anet would make more FUN content, rather than REWARDING content. But hey, what do I know ;) No forum credibility :trollface:

MMO can't exist without a grind.

Why is every post you make a one-liner? Unless you actually reason your position there's really no point in posting.

So you agree?

For players with an attention span of 30 seconds and no ability to reason beyond 2 sentences, I agree.

But grind is opposite to having such short attention span.

[Vinceman.4572]

If rewards are balanced throughout all or more maps people will find out which one has the best route/options/possibilities/advantages/nearest way to the bank stash or whatever. It was always like this and will always be.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I can agree with @Etheri.5406. He is making a lot of good points and I can admit that

despite having him on my ingame blocklist for annoying me in WvW lol.

Were you on ranger? :thinking:

I find it funny that GW2 was designed as a no-grind game. You don't "need" to do fractals. Yet they were added for vertical progression, with rewards and incentives. Players grinded it to fractal god, then realised they didn't even enjoy the gameplay anymore.

I find it sad the community asks anet to make the game more grindy and "rewarding", then grinds that content & those rewards until it's neither fun or rewarding anymore; then blames anet for it. The game allows you to play whatever you find fun. If you're farming fractals because you feel like you need to you're making questionable life decisions.

I wish anet would make more FUN content, rather than REWARDING content. But hey, what do I know ;) No forum credibility :trollface:

MMO can't exist without a grind.

Why is every post you make a one-liner? Unless you actually reason your position there's really no point in posting.

So you agree?

For players with an attention span of 30 seconds and no ability to reason beyond 2 sentences, I agree.

While I occasionally disagree with Kheldorn on multiple topics, he is right on this one.

Grind is unfortunately an integral part of MMO design. The reasons are manyfold:

• content can not be produced as fast as players consume it
• some people enjoy just grinding away and those type of players are often drawn to MMOs
• simplistic grind allows for easier balance both difficulty design wise as well as reward wise
• grind and time associated with acquiring in game assets are integral to a economy which many MMOs provide

My personal opinion on this I stated earlier. I don't think we need more grinds (though variety is nice to have), I think we need more goals to work towards in different ways. For spvp, wvw and pve. Not necessarily skins, since those are one time acquisitions but rather some type of persistent long term goals. Mist Attunement was a good start for fractals (though even that has its limits). Obviously these type of goals are meant for less than 1% of the player base. Thus no expectations can or should be made that they be huge in scale or development.

[Etheri.5406]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:If rewards are balanced throughout all or more maps people will find out which one has the best route/options/possibilities/advantages/nearest way to the bank stash or whatever. It was always like this and will always be.

If DPS specs are balanced, players will still find out which one is best for which situation and a meta will establish. There will always be a best option and there always will be".Clearly, following your reasoning it's fine if some specs can't pass 2k dps and others can get 30k+ trivially. No difference at all with one spec having 37k and most others being around 33-35k. Except in reality, one option allows decent amounts of freedom for everyone who isn't speedrunning; the other allows freedom only for those who don't care about rewards.

After all, perfect balance cannot exist so balance is useless right? /s

Amazing statement, which says NOTHING about the extent or virtues of balance.

I see the same players repeating the same copy-paste populist arguments which sound great and don't work at all in practise.

Why balance at all? A meta will always exist. Might as well stop balancing. That's quite literally what you're saying bois.

@"Cynister.2865"

I'm glad actually used this thing called arguments. Voodoo magic. I'm sad you ignored reward balance completely. Players will always grind - there's a huge difference between players grinding to repeat content and players asking for more rewards while in reality just aiming for a more monotone grind.

Repeating content you enjoy for the enjoyment, and not the rewards, isn't quite as "grindy" as repeatedly doing the same (dull) content because it's the most rewarding.

Yes some players need grind. Some players enjoy the grind. Many players grind for rewards, rather than what they enjoy as gameplay. They're reward-driven; which is OK. Even the players that play for rewards rather than what they enjoy can vary their gameplay if rewards are more or less balanced. Right now their options are... Fractals, istan and SW ;)

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Etheri.5406" said:

If DPS specs are balanced, players will still find out which one is best for which situation and a meta will establish. There will always be a best option and there always will be".Clearly, following your reasoning it's fine if some specs can't pass 2k dps and others can get 30k+ trivially. No difference at all with one spec having 37k and most others being around 33-35k. Except in reality, one option allows decent amounts of freedom for everyone who isn't speedrunning; the other allows freedom only for those who don't care about rewards.

After all, perfect balance cannot exist so balance is useless right? /sAmazing statement, which says NOTHING about the extent or virtues of balance.

I see the same players repeating the same copy-paste populist arguments which sound great and don't work at all in practise.

Why balance at all? A meta will always exist. Might as well stop balancing. That's quite literally what you're saying bois.

I haven't said anything about class balance. You are talking about a complete different topic and those two cannot be compared in the slightest.That's nonsense and I still have a little bit of hope that you notice(d) that. If we had a perfect balance in GW2 people would allow a lot to be played (still not all due to humans being jerks),

In terms of rewards: No matter how even you'll make the reward structure people will ignore the 3rd, 4th and 5th best maps/events and all the others afterwards because there will be that one superior. As I wrote this superiority could be the map with the nearest way to the bank stash or the one with the lowest loading time.And Cyninja has a good point: Those farming people will farm and some of them like it. They set up guilds, optimize their routes and are having fun on discords/teamspeak. Weird in my opinion but that's how it is.

If you really plan on handing out things equally it would be better to install PvE reward tracks similar to WvW and PvP. Not that is already whished by a lot of players since years additionally to the actual rewards you can get (lul). But then you have to deal with a huge overhaul of experience given by encounters/mobs in the whole game so you cannot farm lvl 5 trash for good exp in Queensdale while others are wiping on Dhuum getting almost nothing.Since this game is 6 years old by now and I have seen Anet working/realizing stuff over this long, this will never happen at all. It would be more impossible than balancing classes.

Right now their options are... Fractals, istan and SW ;)

Yes, and the cycle will go on. If you gut fractals people will stop playing them shifting back to dungeons if the reward only is a tiny bit better there. Same with Istan, nerf it people go SW. Nerf SW as well: "NEXT!".

[Etheri.5406]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

If DPS specs are balanced, players will still find out which one is best for which situation and a meta will establish. There will always be a best option and there always will be".Clearly, following your reasoning it's fine if some specs can't pass 2k dps and others can get 30k+ trivially. No difference at all with one spec having 37k and most others being around 33-35k. Except in reality, one option allows decent amounts of freedom for everyone who isn't speedrunning; the other allows freedom only for those who don't care about rewards.

After all, perfect balance cannot exist so balance is useless right? /sAmazing statement, which says NOTHING about the extent or virtues of balance.

I see the same players repeating the same copy-paste populist arguments which sound great and don't work at all in practise.

Why balance at all? A meta will always exist. Might as well stop balancing. That's quite literally what you're saying bois.

I haven't said anything about class balance. You are talking about a complete different topic and those two cannot be compared in the slightest.

That's nonsense and I still have a little bit of hope that you notice(d) that. If we had a perfect balance in GW2 people would allow a lot to be played (still not all due to humans being jerks),

And yet the DPS which are actively used in pug raids increase a lot as their balance gets closer together. The stuff which is considered reasonable and acceptable vastly increases as balance gets better; and diversity does improve.

But obviously that can't exist for farming. No not at all. I mean if players ask "what do you farm" nobody would ever mention silverwastes or fractals because istan is faster (hypothethical statement).

Oh wait no. They do. And after farming that high reward map for the 200th hour, something tells me plenty of players wouldn't mind swapping to something else if it's 5% less rewards. Or 10%. Right now it's often between 100% and 400%... But hey - this imbalance doesn't matter because players aren't influenced by it at all.

Unlike skill balance, skill balance obviously drives players and is something completely different.

In terms of rewards: No matter how even you'll make the reward structure people will ignore the 3rd, 4th and 5th best maps/events and all the others afterwards because there will be that one superior. As I wrote this superiority could be the map with the nearest way to the bank stash or the one with the lowest loading time.

And Cyninja has a good point: Those farming people will farm and some of them like it. They set up guilds, optimize their routes and are having fun on discords/teamspeak. Weird in my opinion but that's how it is.

Which is fine; and balance gives them alternative choices which allow them to vary their gameplay and improve replayability over long time.There are meta raiders which will play the BEST; even if it's a 0.1% difference on skill balance. And some players find that weird, too. But the truth is the game improves for them with more variety, and they're ALSO asking for balance.

Do you really think players wouldn't vary their farms more if the rewards they gained were closer together? Do you really think players wouldn't be more likely to play whatever they felt like, what they enjoyed, if the rewards at the end of it were closer together? That there's no difference between having some maps and meta's grant not even a few gold per hour, and some farms going over 20? That we wouldn't be having more varied (aka REPLAYABLE) gameplay if the game wasn't telling us "hey, farm these cause it's better money"?

It's almost like we already have a system in place giving weekly reward-track like rewards to promote different endgame / core maps being played depending on which materials are highly priced. Oh wait it's irrelevant because istan is plain WAY better. But it defacto worked creating CS, FGS, ... champ trains during their profitable weeks. So I guess it is possible? ;)

[Malediktus.9250]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:"Missing out" is just a psychological problem. Everywhere in life you have to set priorities since a day only has 24 hours.

Of course. But it is a problem many players

will

have. As a game developer, you can wish for them to change, or you can adapt your design to circumvent the issue.

And ruin raids the same way they ruined fractals back then?

I don't see ruined fractals. And no, their rewards outside the daily cycle aren't completely worthless either. People used to run F40 for the gold and karma. They run F42 now for the same reasons. It was never very popular, but only because it was never easy to get an efficient enough group to make the g/hr worthwhile. And I'd say it shouldn't be. Speedruns like this will burn most players out of the game in no time. You shouldn't give incentives for that.

The only fractals that are worth doing when not part of the daily are 99cm and 100cm. All the ascended and other high quality loot is locked inside the daily chests.Not sure how farming the same fractal over and over is in any way comparable to the old fractal system

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Etheri.5406" said:

Do you really think players wouldn't vary their farms more if the rewards they gained were closer together? Do you really think players wouldn't be more likely to play whatever they felt like, what they enjoyed, if the rewards at the end of it were closer together? That there's no difference between having some maps and meta's grant not even a few gold per hour, and some farms going over 20? That we wouldn't be having more varied (aka REPLAYABLE) gameplay if the game wasn't telling us "hey, farm these cause it's better money"?

It's almost like we already have a system in place giving weekly reward-track like rewards to promote different endgame / core maps being played depending on which materials are highly priced. Oh wait it's irrelevant because istan is plain WAY better. But it defacto worked creating CS, FGS, ... champ trains during their profitable weeks. So I guess it is possible? ;)

Rewards for an activity is not merely the gold it pays out or the reward you gain over x amount of time.

You make it sound as though balance just magically happens. Even IF rewards were perfectly balanced (as in the pay out after time X) it would be near impossible to balance the difficulty of each activity to be exactly the same. Thus people would automatically gravitate to the easiest while most profitable activity, again leaving any farm in 3rd, 4th or lower place be less desired. Obviously perfect balance would be great, it's simply not possible without a lot of work for eventually a minor result.

What you fail to realize, grind and farms are already split accross multiple events and maps (thus farms are already varied). There is people running dungeons (even today), fractals, there is people doing world boss runs, there is people cycling over X different meta events (AB, TD, DS, Istan, Siverwastes, Tripple Worm, Tequatle, etc.) and even meta event runs (VB matriarchs -> TD -> AB). People are already offered a multitude of different farms and possibilities to gain gold and many take advantage of this. Your assumption that rewards are totally out of balance is simply wrong as witnessed in game.

Champion farms were one of the most boring farm periods in this game. I dreaded every moment of the FGS while grinding towards my first legendary. I would like to see one added again though for people who enjoyed that type of farm. It's miles from balanced or great though, it was mindless running in a circle (and RIBA comes very close to that feeling at the moment).

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Etheri.5406" said:And yet the DPS which are actively used in pug raids increase a lot as their balance gets closer together. The stuff which is considered reasonable and acceptable vastly increases as balance gets better; and diversity does improve.

But obviously that can't exist for farming. No not at all. I mean if players ask "what do you farm" nobody would ever mention silverwastes or fractals because istan is faster (hypothethical statement).

Oh wait no. They do. And after farming that high reward map for the 200th hour, something tells me plenty of players wouldn't mind swapping to something else if it's 5% less rewards. Or 10%. Right now it's often between 100% and 400%... But hey - this imbalance doesn't matter because players aren't influenced by it at all.

Highly speculative. People open SW bags with new-leveled lvl 40-50 toons to squeeze the last bit out of their loot.

Do you really think players wouldn't vary their farms more if the rewards they gained were closer together? Do you really think players wouldn't be more likely to play whatever they felt like, what they enjoyed, if the rewards at the end of it were closer together? That there's no difference between having some maps and meta's grant not even a few gold per hour, and some farms going over 20? That we wouldn't be having more varied (aka REPLAYABLE) gameplay if the game wasn't telling us "hey, farm these cause it's better money"?

Highly speculative as well.And no, I don't think they would play whatever they feel like. A lot of players already do that and those are not the farming ones. The farming people would still organize themselves to get the best out of it. Also, be serious, what content is there in GW2 that isn't rewarding but people would like to play it? Dungeons? Oh I agree. And more so?Grind is grind, there isn't one single open world event that is soooo juicy people - or specific majorities - would love to play it if it were more rewarding. Not. a. single. one.And, agreeing to Cyninja here again, players already play everything they like. Even on so-called empty LS3 maps people are there doing metas.

It's almost like we already have a system in place giving weekly reward-track like rewards to promote different endgame / core maps being played depending on which materials are highly priced. Oh wait it's irrelevant because istan is plain WAY better. But it defacto worked creating CS, FGS, ... champ trains during their profitable weeks. So I guess it is possible? ;)

This is system is trash even without Istan. It only worked on a couple of maps, actually almost only in CS and FGS...oh snap, the same situation we have now with other names. Because why? Hey, they were the best.And please, don't come with replayability. CS and FGS only have anecdotal value due to their farms in the past it's not that people like these maps more than others.

More and more it seems to me that you have a problem with the current market prices. It's ok to be against it but I doubt Anet is going to change that anytime soon. I'm fine with the prices, it doesn't hurt me in the slightest. Since I'm playing fracs and raids I'll get solid liquid gold rewards - the best form of rewards atm. ^^

[zealex.9410]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:I can agree with @Etheri.5406. He is making a lot of good points and I can admit that

despite having him on my ingame blocklist for annoying me in WvW lol.

Were you on ranger? :thinking:

I find it funny that GW2 was designed as a no-grind game. You don't "need" to do fractals. Yet they were added for vertical progression, with rewards and incentives. Players grinded it to fractal god, then realised they didn't even enjoy the gameplay anymore.

I find it sad the community asks anet to make the game more grindy and "rewarding", then grinds that content & those rewards until it's neither fun or rewarding anymore; then blames anet for it. The game allows you to play whatever you find fun. If you're farming fractals because you feel like you need to you're making questionable life decisions.

I wish anet would make more FUN content, rather than REWARDING content. But hey, what do I know ;) No forum credibility :trollface:

I dont think anet said no grind for rewards and shit. I believe where they mentioned that they didnt want the game to be a mindless grind was the lvling.

As for rewarding vs fun content. Idk where you got the idea that they make rewarding content. Last bit of rewarding content was back with istan.

[zealex.9410]

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:"Missing out" is just a psychological problem. Everywhere in life you have to set priorities since a day only has 24 hours.

Of course. But it is a problem many players

will

have. As a game developer, you can wish for them to change, or you can adapt your design to circumvent the issue.

And ruin raids the same way they ruined fractals back then?

I don't see ruined fractals. And no, their rewards outside the daily cycle aren't completely worthless either. People used to run F40 for the gold and karma. They run F42 now for the same reasons. It was never very popular, but only because it was never easy to get an efficient enough group to make the g/hr worthwhile. And I'd say it shouldn't be. Speedruns like this will burn most players out of the game in no time. You shouldn't give incentives for that.

The only fractals that are worth doing when not part of the daily are 99cm and 100cm. All the ascended and other high quality loot is locked inside the daily chests.Not sure how farming the same fractal over and over is in any way comparable to the old fractal system

Honestly swamp of tue mist and frac 40 farm was terrible. But lul i guess the devs cant take the dungeon system and just push in fotm as another method of playing them for rewards past the dailies without doing the same 1 fractal on repeat over and over.

[Etheri.5406]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

Do you really think players wouldn't vary their farms more if the rewards they gained were closer together? Do you really think players wouldn't be more likely to play whatever they felt like, what they enjoyed, if the rewards at the end of it were closer together? That there's no difference between having some maps and meta's grant not even a few gold per hour, and some farms going over 20? That we wouldn't be having more varied (aka REPLAYABLE) gameplay if the game wasn't telling us "hey, farm these cause it's better money"?

It's almost like we already have a system in place giving weekly reward-track like rewards to promote different endgame / core maps being played depending on which materials are highly priced. Oh wait it's irrelevant because istan is plain WAY better. But it defacto worked creating CS, FGS, ... champ trains during their profitable weeks. So I guess it is possible? ;)

Rewards for an activity is not merely the gold it pays out or the reward you gain over x amount of time.

You make it sound as though balance just magically happens. Even IF rewards were perfectly balanced (as in the pay out after time X) it would be near impossible to balance the difficulty of each activity to be exactly the same. Thus people would automatically gravitate to the easiest while most profitable activity, again leaving any farm in 3rd, 4th or lower place be less desired. Obviously perfect balance would be great, it's simply not possible without a lot of work for eventually a minor result.

I'm not asking for perfect balance. I'm asking for iterative improvements. You're the ones saying "perfect balance is impossible so why bother trying". Meanwhile when did we even try to balance rewards? You can cut istan's rewards in half and it'd still be on par with half the other ones you named.

At no point did I say you need to balance rewards for "skill". We're talking about no-skill PVE here, even if that serves to prove a point.

What you fail to realize, grind and farms are already split accross multiple events and maps (thus farms are already varied). There is people running dungeons (even today), fractals, there is people doing world boss runs, there is people cycling over X different meta events (AB, TD, DS, Istan, Siverwastes, Tripple Worm, Tequatle, etc.) and even meta event runs (VB matriarchs -> TD -> AB). People are already offered a multitude of different farms and possibilities to gain gold and many take advantage of this. Your assumption that rewards are totally out of balance is simply wrong as witnessed in game.

People run tripple trouble for the LOOT? :trollface: Yeah I definitely fail to realise how players are grinding tripple trouble for loot. MY BAD. People do event runs for the LOOT? :trollface:

I guess you also don't think these meta's would cycle better if you balanced the rewards better than ... some maps giving several factors more than others?

Champion farms were one of the most boring farm periods in this game. I dreaded every moment of the FGS while grinding towards my first legendary. I would like to see one added again though for people who enjoyed that type of farm. It's miles from balanced or great though, it was mindless running in a circle (and RIBA comes very close to that feeling at the moment).

Sounds like a case of grinding until you realise it's really really really dull. Have fun with istan and RIBA and whatever farms they'll add after; because unless they balance it it will remain monotone. Almost sounds like something you'd want fixed. Oh wait that'd imply balancing rewards which we're against for... magic reasons. The naive belief that you "gain more" even tho that tends to magically dissapear as soon as prices adjust.

@Vinceman.4572 The system works fine if you balance the rewards, where we saw it can be used to cycle different maps IF they're profitable enough without difficulty. Or you can just grind istan non-stop for the next few years or whatever map comes after. Have fun ;)

It's funny how the idea of balance is highly speculative. People maximize their loot yet they still farm TWO MAPS which BY YOUR DEFINITION wouldn't happen as they should only farm one. And they're not hard-farming in optimized rota's the other ones because THEY DON'T COME NEAR the gold profit anyways.

I wonder whose point that proves :trollface: Have fun grinding bois.

[Feanor.2358]

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:"Missing out" is just a psychological problem. Everywhere in life you have to set priorities since a day only has 24 hours.

Of course. But it is a problem many players

will

have. As a game developer, you can wish for them to change, or you can adapt your design to circumvent the issue.

And ruin raids the same way they ruined fractals back then?

I don't see ruined fractals. And no, their rewards outside the daily cycle aren't completely worthless either. People used to run F40 for the gold and karma. They run F42 now for the same reasons. It was never very popular, but only because it was never easy to get an efficient enough group to make the g/hr worthwhile. And I'd say it shouldn't be. Speedruns like this will burn most players out of the game in no time. You shouldn't give incentives for that.

The only fractals that are worth doing when not part of the daily are 99cm and 100cm. All the ascended and other high quality loot is locked inside the daily chests.Not sure how farming the same fractal over and over is in any way comparable to the old fractal system

CMs are de facto dailes as well. Nobody runs them multiple times (or at least I'm not aware of people doing it).

[Cyninja.2954]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

Do you really think players wouldn't vary their farms more if the rewards they gained were closer together? Do you really think players wouldn't be more likely to play whatever they felt like, what they enjoyed, if the rewards at the end of it were closer together? That there's no difference between having some maps and meta's grant not even a few gold per hour, and some farms going over 20? That we wouldn't be having more varied (aka REPLAYABLE) gameplay if the game wasn't telling us "hey, farm these cause it's better money"?

It's almost like we already have a system in place giving weekly reward-track like rewards to promote different endgame / core maps being played depending on which materials are highly priced. Oh wait it's irrelevant because istan is plain WAY better. But it defacto worked creating CS, FGS, ... champ trains during their profitable weeks. So I guess it is possible? ;)

Rewards for an activity is not merely the gold it pays out or the reward you gain over x amount of time.

You make it sound as though balance just magically happens. Even IF rewards were perfectly balanced (as in the pay out after time X) it would be near impossible to balance the difficulty of each activity to be exactly the same. Thus people would automatically gravitate to the easiest while most profitable activity, again leaving any farm in 3rd, 4th or lower place be less desired. Obviously perfect balance would be great, it's simply not possible without a lot of work for eventually a minor result.

I'm not asking for perfect balance. I'm asking for iterative improvements. You're the ones saying "perfect balance is impossible so why bother trying". Meanwhile when did we even try to balance rewards? You can cut istan's rewards in half and it'd still be on par with half the other ones you named.

At no point did I say you need to balance rewards for "skill". We're talking about no-skill PVE here, even if that serves to prove a point.

Even no skill pve will have minor difference in difficulty. See Tequatle versus Silverwastes or Silverwastes versus Istan (while being similar in reward).

If you aren't asking for perfect balance, then all you are complaining about is Istan because all the other farms (beside RIBA) are very well balanced. Istan can't be run 24/7 and is on a 2 hour schedule.

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

What you fail to realize, grind and farms are already split accross multiple events and maps (thus farms are already varied). There is people running dungeons (even today), fractals, there is people doing world boss runs, there is people cycling over X different meta events (AB, TD, DS, Istan, Siverwastes, Tripple Worm, Tequatle, etc.) and even meta event runs (VB matriarchs -> TD -> AB). People are already offered a multitude of different farms and possibilities to gain gold and many take advantage of this. Your assumption that rewards are totally out of balance is simply wrong as witnessed in game.

People run tripple trouble for the LOOT? :trollface: Yeah I definitely fail to realise how players are grinding tripple trouble for loot. MY BAD. People do event runs for the LOOT? :trollface:

I guess you also don't think these meta's would cycle better if you balanced the rewards better than ... some maps giving several factors more than others?

Not sure what is funny about this, yes it gets run 3-4 times per day by both the german and english gw2community for loot. The fact that it requires some organization has not stopped people of running it daily, multiple times, for years. https://gw2community.com/calendar/2018/7/

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:Champion farms were one of the most boring farm periods in this game. I dreaded every moment of the FGS while grinding towards my first legendary. I would like to see one added again though for people who enjoyed that type of farm. It's miles from balanced or great though, it was mindless running in a circle (and RIBA comes very close to that feeling at the moment).

Sounds like a case of grinding until you realise it's really really really dull. Have fun with istan and RIBA and whatever farms they'll add after; because unless they balance it it will remain monotone. Almost sounds like something you'd want fixed. Oh wait that'd imply balancing rewards which we're against for... magic reasons. The naive belief that you "gain more" even tho that tends to magically dissapear as soon as prices adjust.

Yet Siverwastes has been among the top farms ever since vanilla and new farms have established themselves. Less lucrative farms, more difficult farms. Turns out people do spice things up which shows that it is possible to play what you want and get rewards.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Etheri.5406 said:@"Vinceman.4572" The system works fine if you balance the rewards, where we saw it can be used to cycle different maps IF they're profitable enough without difficulty. Or you can just grind istan non-stop for the next few years or whatever map comes after. Have fun ;)

Hmm, so you are only complaining about Istan and nothing else. Prove me wrong but I doubt that you have any interest to make other maps more active than they already are. They don't need that, they are working fine.

Have fun grinding bois.

The fun part is you always try to insult or blame us. First it was while we were speaking about raids and you told we had no clue about raiding when we already are active raiders and it turned out you are at least less raiding than me.Now you try to make "farmers" out of us. I can literally count the times I have played the Istan meta with the fingers on my hand without reuse them. I mean, come on, please at least try to discuss properly without getting personal one time. It's all falling back at you.

I hate farming it's the most boring stuff in this game and when my little guild with rl friends needed shovels from the SW I turned on Teamspeak, music, streams on 2nd & 3rd monitor because otherwise I would have gone crazy (Nobody offered them when we were rdy to level up).I couldn't care less about Anet nerfing all into the ground or balance it. I just don't give a damn F about it. If I were in the need of making gold I would know how to. There are enough sources to get it from, faster and slower ones. Every veteran knows it and nobody of us is dependent on farms like Istan. Really, I don't know what's the issue you have. Are other maps failing? No. Are maps empty and people cannot finish achievements? Also no. I'd rather have players together than scattered around from time to time. The population in GW2 is big enough that we don't need the scattering, you'll find people everywhere.

[Etheri.5406]

@"Cyninja.2954" "all farms are very well balanced except these outliers that are several factors off".

That's like going back to the core game and saying "engi and necro are very well balanced if you pretend ele doesn't exist":trollface:

Fun how it's only istan... Except riba too. Oh and yeah, core maps still don't come close to HoT ones. And then LS3 and LS4 is just... all over the place. Some are, some aren't,...

Sounds like, how do I say this, inbalance?And why are you linking REWARDS to SKILL? I'm not asking rewards to be linked to skill; i'm not mentioning it; you are.

I find it funny that you think the loot of TT comes remotely close to actual farm maps. One might say nobody sane does it for the loot, considering the huge difference, and they do it for other reason than raw rewards. Or at the very least specific achievements; which no map in the game is lacking yet isn't an excuse for reward inbalance either.

OH wait no, TT clearly gives loot on par with istan and RIBA. My bad.

Not sure what is funny about this, yes it gets run 3-4 times per day by both the german and english gw2community for loot. The fact that it requires some organization has not stopped people of running it daily, multiple times, for years. https://gw2community.com/calendar/2018/7/

They don't do multiple runs a day. The calender you linked has ... 4 runs planned throughout entire august at the moment. I admit it's done more than that, but far from daily much less multiple times a day; at least succesfully. So as usual. I heard GW2community organises "farms" now.

Yet Siverwastes has been among the top farms ever since vanilla and new farms have established themselves. Less lucrative farms, more difficult farms.

Name 5 farms that compete with silverwastes. Oh wait TEQ. Oh wait it's not a farm anyone does for loot. Why does the guy in istan deserve more loot than the guy at teq? Why does the guy at SW deserve more loot than the guy doing orr or TD meta? :trollface:

Also SW wasn't even in the core game. It came out as an absurd farm that removed... right, the farm maps prior to that. New farms established ... when they turn out to be more profitable such as multiloot and istan. It's almost like... hmh, it's related to howmuch rewards they give which could and should be more balanced than it is.

Is there a reason you're saying NO to balancing rewards?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Etheri.5406 said:@"Cyninja.2954" "all farms are very well balanced except these outliers that are several factors off".

That's like going back to the core game and saying "engi and necro are very well balanced if you pretend ele doesn't exist":trollface:

Fun how it's only istan... Except riba too. Oh and yeah, core maps still don't come close to HoT ones. And then LS3 and LS4 is just... all over the place. Some are, some aren't,...

Sounds like, how do I say this, inbalance?And why are you linking REWARDS to SKILL? I'm not asking rewards to be linked to skill; i'm not mentioning it; you are.

Because people will flock to the easiest AND most lucrative farm. Those are the 2 deciding factors for where people decide to farm. You are focusing on only 1 which automatically makes any idea or suggestion already lacking.

@Etheri.5406 said:I find it funny that you think the loot of TT comes remotely close to actual farm maps. One might say nobody sane does it for the loot, considering the huge difference, and they do it for other reason than raw rewards. Or at the very least specific achievements; which no map in the game is lacking yet isn't an excuse for reward inbalance either.

OH wait no, TT clearly gives loot on par with istan and RIBA. My bad.

I said people run TT even though it is harder AND less lucrative than istan or SW. It goes directly against the argument that farms need to be balanced perfectly.

Not sure what is funny about this, yes it gets run 3-4 times per day by both the german and english gw2community for loot. The fact that it requires some organization has not stopped people of running it daily, multiple times, for years.

https://gw2community.com/calendar/2018/7/

They don't do multiple runs a day. The calender you linked has ... 4 runs planned throughout entire august at the moment. I admit it's done more than that, but far from daily much less multiple times a day; at least succesfully. So as usual. I heard GW2community organises "farms" now.

Oh please do some basic research. Go join the TS for once or spend 10 minutes on the map. 5 Minutes ago you didn't even know the fight gets run. They run it daily, multiple times. It's just not spammed on the calendar. You are shockingly misinformed on what people do or run in this game, yet demand to be taken seriously on this topic.

Here: the cycle from March this year: https://gw2community.com/calendar/2018/3/ where the entire thing is spammed with daily farms. Feel free to check in on the map or TS and see for yourself.

@Etheri.5406 said:

Yet Siverwastes has been among the top farms ever since vanilla and new farms have established themselves. Less lucrative farms, more difficult farms.

Name 5 farms that compete with silverwastes. Oh wait TEQ. Oh wait it's not a farm anyone does for loot. Why does the guy in istan deserve more loot than the guy at teq? Why does the guy at SW deserve more loot than the guy doing orr or TD meta? :trollface:

Also SW wasn't even in the core game. It came out as an absurd farm that removed... right, the farm maps prior to that. New farms established ... when they turn out to be more profitable such as multiloot and istan. It's almost like... hmh, it's related to howmuch rewards they give which could and should be more balanced than it is.

The farm map (I'll assume champion farms of which there was QD and FGS) were removed by changes to the champion mechanics (entirely removed from QD). People were running champion farms well into Silverwastes times as well as dungeons. So no, lucrativity was not the deciding factor. You would know this if you were actually farming back in the day.

@Etheri.5406 said:Is there a reason you're saying NO to balancing rewards?

I never said I was against balanced rewards, you are literally putting words in my mouth. I disagree that balance is so far off as you want to make it out to be.

TL;DR: you are vastly misinformed on what and how people farm. While balance between farms is nice, it is not in a so shocking state as you want to make it out to be.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Etheri.5406" said:Is there a reason you're saying NO to balancing rewards?

He doesn't say "NO" to balancing rewards, he is just stating the fact that there are enough alternatives played constantly. And even the other parts in this game where we find lesser rewards are still active and not dead per se.

[Etheri.5406]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:@Vinceman.4572 The system works fine if you balance the rewards, where we saw it can be used to cycle different maps IF they're profitable enough without difficulty. Or you can just grind istan non-stop for the next few years or whatever map comes after. Have fun ;)

Hmm, so you are only complaining about Istan and nothing else. Prove me wrong but I doubt that you have any interest to make other maps more active than they already are. They don't need that, they are working fine.

Have fun grinding bois.

The fun part is you always try to insult or blame us. First it was while we were speaking about raids and you told we had no clue about raiding when we already are active raiders and it turned out you are at least less raiding than me.

I raided since raids released. You can post your vastly superior logs to prove how amazing you are, or you can just assume it like anyhting else and convince yourself it's true. Either is fine for me ;)

Now you try to make "farmers" out of us. I can literally count the times I have played the Istan meta with the fingers on my hand without reuse them. I mean, come on, please at least try to discuss properly without getting personal one time. It's all falling back at you.

Wait what. You haven't stated a SINGLE argument in favor or against balancing rewards; you've only cried about my arguments without offering your own.

I hate farming it's the most boring stuff in this game and when my little guild with rl friends needed shovels from the SW I turned on Teamspeak, music, streams on 2nd & 3rd monitor because otherwise I would have gone crazy (Nobody offered them when we were rdy to level up).

Fun was had indeed. Glad you rather maintain this status quo; I see the sense in all your arguments now. Entirely consistent. "I hate it yet we did it for rewards and needed TWO extra monitors to not go crazy but hey it's great to have in the game"; you're evil for daring to suggest they balance it!

I couldn't care less about Anet nerfing all into the ground or balance it. I just don't give a kitten F about it. If I were in the need of making gold I would know how to. There are enough sources to get it from, faster and slower ones. Every veteran knows it and nobody of us is dependent on farms like Istan. Really, I don't know what's the issue you have. Are other maps failing? No. Are maps empty and people cannot finish achievements? Also no. I'd rather have players together than scattered around from time to time. The population in GW2 is big enough that we don't need the scattering, you'll find people everywhere.

There we have it. This is the truth. You don't care about the argument. You don't care about the content. You don't have an opinion and couldn't give a F. Are other maps failing? No. Does it drastically reduce their replayability? Yes. Does having insane rewards so multiple instances of a map are farmed on a timer have ANYTHING to do with large / zerg-oriented meta's ? Nope, see TD which is perfectly healthy without it.

So in reality, you don't give an F about any of it. You're arguing without a point, without arguments and without consistency for the sake of arguing with me. Did I upset your feelings? If you don't care; why post and reply? Oh right.

Clearly my ad hominem. I make you farmers by saying "have fun farming" so you can ignore all arguments and go back to more copy-paste arguments so you feel smart without actually ever adressing ANY issues with the game; while carefully starting your post with "I think i'm a better raider and you raid less than me! I was experienced and you're a noob!" which comes from ????? nowhere and smoothly ending with "I don't care about anything around this subject and I dislike farming".

The only consistency in your post is how you must disagree with me ;)

[Etheri.5406]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:Is there a reason you're saying NO to balancing rewards?

He doesn't say "NO" to balancing rewards, he is just stating the fact that there are enough alternatives played constantly. And even the other parts in this game where we find lesser rewards are still active and not dead per se.

So unless something is fully "dead" it's fine right.Unless something is entirely broken, why improve it?

There's nothing wrong at all! Doesn't harm replayability! Everything is great!

You know, having vastly inbalanced classes doesn't stop these classes from being played. So clearly, no reason to balance classes right? Even when they weren't balanced for PvE at all; each class still saw play. Sure, never at the high end or for people that cared about balance but that clearly doesn't matter ;)

[Cyninja.2954]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:Is there a reason you're saying NO to balancing rewards?

He doesn't say "NO" to balancing rewards, he is just stating the fact that there are enough alternatives played constantly. And even the other parts in this game where we find lesser rewards are still active and not dead per se.

So unless something is fully "dead" it's fine right.Unless something is entirely broken, why improve it?

There's nothing wrong at all! Doesn't harm replayability! Everything is great!

Constantly dealing in absolutes will not get your point across. It merely makes you seem like a kitten. You have yet prove THAT farms are so unbalanced that it is an issue. You have not done so so far.

All in game activity suggests that there is enough variety that no one farm has taken over everything.

[Etheri.5406]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:Is there a reason you're saying NO to balancing rewards?

He doesn't say "NO" to balancing rewards, he is just stating the fact that there are enough alternatives played constantly. And even the other parts in this game where we find lesser rewards are still active and not dead per se.

So unless something is fully "dead" it's fine right.Unless something is entirely broken, why improve it?

There's nothing wrong at all! Doesn't harm replayability! Everything is great!

Constantly dealing in absolutes will not get your point across. It merely makes you seem like a kitten. You have yet prove THAT farms are so unbalanced that it is an issue. You have not done so so far.

Says you, the moment I state ISTAN and SW are 100%+ more profitable as most GW2 meta's and maps no reply, no answer.I ask for balance and you tell me "something will always be better, so balance is irrelevant as farmers will always farm what is best"Who is dealing in absoluteles? Right, you guys demanding perfect balance or no balance. Who is asking for iterative relative balance? Right, me.

Right. More random arguments which don't adress any points. Burden of proof is always on someone else and you'll just state it's questionable while pretending GW2community does TT "several times a day, daily" and pretending it gives loot remotely comparable to istan... Neither of which are even true.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:Is there a reason you're saying NO to balancing rewards?

He doesn't say "NO" to balancing rewards, he is just stating the fact that there are enough alternatives played constantly. And even the other parts in this game where we find lesser rewards are still active and not dead per se.

So unless something is fully "dead" it's fine right.Unless something is entirely broken, why improve it?

There's nothing wrong at all! Doesn't harm replayability! Everything is great!

Constantly dealing in absolutes will not get your point across. It merely makes you seem like a kitten. You have yet prove THAT farms are so unbalanced that it is an issue. You have not done so so far.

Says you, the moment I state ISTAN and SW are 100%+ more profitable as most GW2 meta's and maps no reply, no answer.

I never disputed that they were. I pointed to the fact that people still en mass run other maps, farms and events. The fact that SW has been the or among the top farms since vanilla yet new farms have established themselves is proof that it is not that unbalanced or damaging to the overall farm meta.

@Etheri.5406 said:I ask for balance and you tell me "something will always be better, so balance is irrelevant as farmers will always farm what is best"

Go read what I wrote, go read what you wrote and try to really listen and read. Then tell me who deals in absolutes (and gets personal in the process by the way).

@Etheri.5406 said:Who is dealing in absoluteles? who is asking for iterative relative balance?

Right. More random arguments which don't adress any points. Burden of proof is always on someone else and you'll just state it's questionable while pretending GW2community does TT "several times a day, daily" and pretending it gives loot remotely comparable to istan... Neither of which are even true.

Again with the putting words in my mouth. Not helping yourself. I never said TT was equal to Istan. I said it gets run EVEN THOUGH it is less rewarding than istan and infinitely more difficult.

EDIT:

@Etheri.5406 said:Burden of proof is always on someone else and you'll just state it's questionable while pretending GW2community does TT "several times a day, daily" and pretending it gives loot remotely comparable to istan... Neither of which are even true.

Okay, then prove that Istan and SW are creating issues which affect other farms or that farms in general are so unbalanced that no variety exists. Let's start with the original claim and get some proof.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Etheri.5406" said:Nope, see TD which is perfectly healthy without it.

Sorry, can't take you serious with such posts. TD isn't healthy. TD is populated by some folks every 2 hours for a meta in a distinct region and then becoming an orphan again. That's not what I would call a healthy map. A healthy map would be where you find people on almost every spot and have an active life. That's not what we find on VD, TD, DS or AB.

So in reality, you don't give an F about any of it. You're arguing without a point, without arguments and without consistency for the sake of arguing with me.

I give an F about it because we have way more important problems in this game than having a meta/event on every map to have players there for 30 minutes or less. It's just no reasonable goal to be implemented with any priority at all.

Clearly my ad hominem. I make you farmers by saying "have fun farming" so you can ignore all arguments and go back to more copy-paste arguments so you feel smart without actually ever adressing ANY issues with the game; while carefully starting your post with "I think i'm a better raider and you raid less than me! I was experienced and you're a noob!" which comes from ????? nowhere and smoothly ending with "I don't care about anything around this subject and I dislike farming".

Since you started to go personal instead of just saying what's the problem behind the current farm maps when every map in this game is active - that's what I want to know. I cannot agree to a simple "Istan is more profitable than xyz so it needs to be balanced."Is there a terrible problem Anet needs to react to? That's the more interesting question.