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Amaranthe.3578

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@Dante.1763 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

From a "casuals" standpoint: The only reason im even doing raids right now is i want legendary armor for my main character, if i could obtain it in PVE through some other means id never touch raids in the first place(and thats literally why its there, to force people in PVE into raids), the entire nature of raids(no not the difficulty, the forced classes and forced roles) goes against one of the core reasons i bought this game despite my love of GW1, and i dont think they ever should have been added. FYI Vayne is correct, i spend more time in each of the zones farming them for the minis and the skins than i have ever spent doing raids, i come back to the game to do just that. i could also care less about the skins they contain(raids) even though my ultimate goal is to have all the skins i can obtain unlocked.

Im pretty sure gw1 had meta comps for its endgame.

Sure(at least till heroes came out and you could solo most of its end game content), but thats my point, this game wasnt supposed to have that. I got tired of it in GW1, having to wait ages for a monk or a tank was irritating as hell, and that type of gameplay didnt exist in GW2 until raids got added(outside of literally not allowing classes in to dungeons, ranger and necro being those classes), i dont like that type of gameplay.

U still need specific classes but you can ring them now in the form of heroes. Gw2 had that before raids in dungeons, fractals, wvw.

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Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

Let's flip the page. A new raid, if that's what it was would get me to play exactly zero seconds. None. Not one. A new zone keeps me busy, usually for weeks. That's a fact for me. My experience. That's because I personally don't enjoy raids and I personally find them a waste of my time. So what does a new raid do for me. If 90% of the playerbase doesn't raid, what does it do for them?

I'm willing to wager more people do living story than raid. I'm willing to wager more people log in to do the story. And I'm willing to wager more people spend more time in game over it. Furthermore, I believe more people spend more on gems. That's more return for the company, which is precisely why companies form in the first place. To make money.

I dont think its fair say that since gw2 releases so few new bosses a raiding community cant really form itself,who can say how many players would flock to the game/start raiding if new content was released in sensible pace?

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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

Let's flip the page. A new raid, if that's what it was would get me to play exactly zero seconds. None. Not one. A new zone keeps me busy, usually for weeks. That's a fact for me. My experience. That's because I personally don't enjoy raids and I personally find them a waste of my time. So what does a new raid do for me. If 90% of the playerbase doesn't raid, what does it do for them?

I'm willing to wager more people do living story than raid. I'm willing to wager more people log in to do the story. And I'm willing to wager more people spend more time in game over it. Furthermore, I believe more people spend more on gems. That's more return for the company, which is precisely why companies form in the first place. To make money.

I dont think its fair say that since gw2 releases so few new bosses a raiding community cant really form itself,who can say how many players would flock to the game/start raiding if new content was released in sensible pace?

Not as many as most think in my opinion. Plenty of games out there center around raids. The two biggest, WoW and Final Fantasy XIV are massive competition. There are lots of raiding games. By contrast there are virtually no MMOs that focus on a cooperative open world PvE experience. Competing with other companies isn't likely to net the same amount of players as pushing your unique slant on things in my opinion.

This game did better over all before raids were introduced. People left because of the direction the game went in. Maybe, just maybe you'd get enough raiders to replace the casuals that left, but I don't think so. And I'm pretty sure Anet doesn't think so either.

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Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

Let's flip the page. A new raid, if that's what it was would get me to play exactly zero seconds. None. Not one. A new zone keeps me busy, usually for weeks. That's a fact for me. My experience. That's because I personally don't enjoy raids and I personally find them a waste of my time. So what does a new raid do for me. If 90% of the playerbase doesn't raid, what does it do for them?

I'm willing to wager more people do living story than raid. I'm willing to wager more people log in to do the story. And I'm willing to wager more people spend more time in game over it. Furthermore, I believe more people spend more on gems. That's more return for the company, which is precisely why companies form in the first place. To make money.

I dont think its fair say that since gw2 releases so few new bosses a raiding community cant really form itself,who can say how many players would flock to the game/start raiding if new content was released in sensible pace?

Not as many as most think in my opinion. Plenty of games out there center around raids. The two biggest, WoW and Final Fantasy XIV are massive competition. There are lots of raiding games. By contrast there are virtually no MMOs that focus on a cooperative open world PvE experience. Competing with other companies isn't likely to net the same amount of players as pushing your unique slant on things in my opinion.

This game did better over all before raids were introduced. People left because of the direction the game went in. Maybe, just maybe you'd get enough raiders to replace the casuals that left, but I don't think so. And I'm pretty sure Anet doesn't think so either.First of all gw has a superior combar to wow and ffs which imho is the main attraction of gw2 right now and the only thing that holds it alive.Its not supposed to attract hardcore raiders or people who care only about raiding, for all I care dump raids and invest heavily into fractals but you gotta have some challenging group content in the game should you be in the moos for it, open world content ia very easy and even the hardest metas are basically just a brain-dead zergfest.
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Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

Let's flip the page. A new raid, if that's what it was would get me to play exactly zero seconds. None. Not one. A new zone keeps me busy, usually for weeks. That's a fact for me. My experience. That's because I personally don't enjoy raids and I personally find them a waste of my time. So what does a new raid do for me. If 90% of the playerbase doesn't raid, what does it do for them?

I'm willing to wager more people do living story than raid. I'm willing to wager more people log in to do the story. And I'm willing to wager more people spend more time in game over it. Furthermore, I believe more people spend more on gems. That's more return for the company, which is precisely why companies form in the first place. To make money.

I dont think its fair say that since gw2 releases so few new bosses a raiding community cant really form itself,who can say how many players would flock to the game/start raiding if new content was released in sensible pace?

Not as many as most think in my opinion. Plenty of games out there center around raids. The two biggest, WoW and Final Fantasy XIV are massive competition. There are lots of raiding games. By contrast there are virtually no MMOs that focus on a cooperative open world PvE experience. Competing with other companies isn't likely to net the same amount of players as pushing your unique slant on things in my opinion.

This game did better over all before raids were introduced. People left because of the direction the game went in. Maybe, just maybe you'd get enough raiders to replace the casuals that left, but I don't think so. And I'm pretty sure Anet doesn't think so either.First of all gw has a superior combar to wow and kitten which imho is the main attraction of gw2 right now and the only thing that holds it alive.Its not supposed to attract hardcore raiders or people who care only about raiding, for all I care dump raids and invest heavily into fractals but you gotta have some challenging group content in the game should you be in the moos for it, open world content ia very easy and even the hardest metas are basically just a brain-dead zergfest.

But it's not the only thing that holds it alive. It's one of the things. As a WoW player, you might well be an expert on WoW, but you weren't here from the start, and you don't really get this game yet. If you did, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying here.

For 3.5 years we didn't have raids or anything like raids. The game as very popular and quite busy with it's living story instances. As time past, people demanded an expansion (Anet hadn't been planning one) and so Anet made an expansion. People also demand raids.

Heart of Thorns, the first expansion, was panned on release. Due to some choice Anet made, but also due to a largely casual playerbase who played for completely different reasons than you do. Raids didn't make this game busier. The difficulty of the HoT zones (and they were more difficult) didn't make the game more popular. Instead people left the game. They walked away, when raids and HoT first came out? Why?

Because we had a largely casual playerbase. People didn't flock to this game, because some had tried it, decided there was no end game and left, but also because for 3.5 years, the game, which has been doing fine, was doing fine on largely casual players. People who logged in for story and exploration and just messing around killing stuff in the open world because it was fun. That was the player base.

Anet had to come in and nerf HoT down to get some of their players back. The game is busier now with it's very slow release of raids then it was when they were introducing more challenging content more often. That's a fact. People didn't come here for PvP, or raids. They came here to immerse themselves in a cool/fun fantasy world. It seemed to be the largest percentage of the playerbase even though it wasn't a majority. It's still largely like that.

Raids are too competitive, too regimented, too I have to show up at a certain time, wearing certain gear, to play with these people (even if I don't like them), because you know, that's how you get through raids most efficiently. But before that, we showed up and played any content with just about anyone and many of us liked it that way.

You can opine that it would be more popular if new raids came out every day, but I don't think so. I think this game should do what it did to be successful IN THE FIRST PLACE. It should play to its strengths. Do what it promised to do originally when it was at its most popular.

Mistakes Anet has made over the years have cost this game. One of them was listening to players who kept asking for more challenging content and raids in my opinion.

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Vinceman.4572

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@"Vayne.8563" said:Due to some choice Anet made, but also due to a largely casual playerbase who played for completely different reasons than you do. Raids didn't make this game busier. The difficulty of the HoT zones (and they were more difficult) didn't make the game more popular. Instead people left the game. They walked away, when raids and HoT first came out? Why?Because we had a largely casual playerbase. People didn't flock to this game, because some had tried it, decided there was no end game and left, but also because for 3.5 years, the game, which has been doing fine, was doing fine on largely casual players. People who logged in for story and exploration and just messing around killing stuff in the open world because it was fun. That was the player base.

They walked away because HoT was too hard not because there were raids. Raids were and still are just a niche and it's highly debatable that players left because of that single portal in Verdant Brink.

Anet had to come in and nerf HoT down to get some of their players back. The game is busier now with it's very slow release of raids then it was when they were introducing more challenging content more often. That's a fact.

That's a wrong conclusion, really mate. The HoT nerf got players back, that's right. But the slower pace of challenging content did not. They haven't even announced that they will release raids slower than before. So, casuals had no clue of "Hey, they release their raids slower, time to get back into the game.", that's bs and you know it.The reason why there's a gap is that wing 1, 2 and 3 were developed during HoT development. All of them. So, all three were almost finished when HoT came out. Bastion of the Penitent and Hall of Chains are 2 completely different things, they weren't designed during a tremendous content drought which we had before the introduction of HoT. It's only reasonable that future raids will have around the same development time like wing 4 + 5 unless Anet starts to announce the end of shipping out content for a certain time (which they won't do because the system is kind of working good now)

Raids are too competitive, too regimented, too I have to show up at a certain time, wearing certain gear, to play with these people (even if I don't like them), because you know, that's how you get through raids most efficiently. But before that, we showed up and played any content with just about anyone and many of us liked it that way.

And still there are enough people liking this content and Anet doesn't forget them. Is it too slow for those and me. Yes, but they care and that's important to keep all the different communities in the game. All of them matter, even raiders put money into the company - not all of them are gold-to-gems converters.

You can opine that it would be more popular if new raids came out every day, but I don't think so. I think this game should do what it did to be successful IN THE FIRST PLACE. It should play to its strengths.

One of its strengths is the combat system which makes it so interesting and engaging to compete against harder encounters instead of pressing 1 again and again. We have 2 dodge rolls, a lot of weapon skills (with swapping), utility skills, "f-skills", an elite etc. People love to use them for a symphony and those people are an important mass as well.

Mistakes Anet has made over the years have cost this game. One of them was listening to players who kept asking for more challenging content and raids in my opinion.

Very highly debatable. The biggest mistakes made were way different things than adding raids. Adding raids was just a side noise, nothing of real interest if you just look at the casual crowd.The first is the company structure. Things at Anet were organized slovenly, teams within the company didn't know what the others were doing and vice versa. That also leaded to too many overhauls in certain areas of the game, for example the skill system (holy moly they wasted so much time and money there), the melee in WvW or fractals. The design around the LS1 - handing out content for 2 weeks and then deleting it forever - was a catastrophe and last year + now we see those choices reversed: SAB is back over Eastern and finally we got the Crown Pavillion and the Cliffs back. Marionette is still missing but I have hope to see her again (because I have missed that event!)I could go on with decision of firing the dungeon team although it turned out it was one of the most stable content people were playing because the rewards kept them playing it - and not only the hardcore crowd. Nowadays you often hear "casuals" asking for new dungeons, in the discussion forum, in this subforum here and on reddit.Really Vayne, it's ok to criticize raids because you are not playing them but in no way it's true that raids made the game worse. If there was a change it was a change for the better because all players gained from the competence of the raid team (indicators and such). I can understand the anger about leggy armor in PvE for raids only but fortunately you can get it in PvP and WvW as well now.A player that only leaves due to his beloved game introduced raids although it won't impact him in the slightest is not a true fan.

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Vayne.8563

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I think you misunderstand me. Adding raids, in and of itself, isn't the problem. It's a symptom of the problem, ie Anet listening to the wrong people. The people with the loudest voice don't always, or even often, represent some sort of majority. That's the real issue. Casuals don't organize. They don't post. They don't show their support, right up until you take away what makes the game good for them, and then they leave. It's what happened in HoT.

For 9 months after HoT launched, we had new raids and we had PvP tournaments. And the game floundered. I said, before HoT ever launched, that the raids added to the game would give people the idea that the game was about raids, because most games with raids are about them. You put certain rewards behind them, like say, legendary armor, and you're making casuals feel left out, because they don't want to do that content. At launch, a casual player could get a legendary, even if it took them a year. Much harder for them to get legendary armor.

There are lots of quotes from devs over the years to back me up. Scott Hartsman from Rift said, before launch, that devs ignored solo players at their own risk. Rift funneled everyone into raids and they had to come out 9 months later and apologize and start adding stuff for casuals. Too little too late, for me anyway, since I'd already moved on.

A lotro dev who'd left the company said only 10% of the game's population only raided or PvPed since launch, but they accounted for 50% of forum posts. Again showing a loud voice doesn't necessarily mean a majority.

Wildstar was a game made for hard core players, focusing on raids, but later they came out and apologized and said we didn't realize how many people wanted solo/casual content, and too late they tried to right that ship. This isn't one isolated incident in one single game. This is a range of games that have all been learning the same lesson over and over.

Raiders and hard core players in general are going to be vocal. They're not going to be the majority. The age of the averge computer game is now around 36 years old, and not everyone has time or energy for raiding. A lot of people don't want stuff they have to do on schedule. They don't want stuff to which they have to devote too much time, or be on time for a specific group. Why? Because you know, they have other responsibilities. Those same people may not want to log in to the game and waste time trying to raid with pugs. A lot of people came to this game specifically to get away from raid content. I know the lack of the trinity was one of the features that sold me on it.

Anet made changes based on a loud, small segement, because they listened to the fan base. 9 months of harder core content coming out hurt the population so bad that PoF was released as the anti-HoT. All the stuff people like about HOT was removed to give a more casual, more explorable area. And even now there are complaints on this forum by someone who finds PoF too hard, or at least not relaxed enough.

Casual players, in my opinion, are always going to outnumber hard core players significantly. You don't know it, maybe, because most of them aren't posting here, or reddit. They're not letting you know. But they sure let Anet know when harder content came out. They let Rift know. They let Wildstar know. There are just too many solo players and too many casual players for companies to ignore. And, as Scott Hartsman said, you ignore them at your own risk. Other games have learned this lesson and now Guild Wars 2 devs have learned the same lesson.

I've been saying it all along, but you know, I'm a no one. Just another guy with an opinion. I said long before raids came into this game what happens when the casual community starts feeling disenfranchised. No one believed me, but I believe they found it. This is why the game is the way it is now. Raids aren't the issue, they're simply a very visible symptom. Anet is doing what they do because, in my opinion, they're figuring out what side their bread is buttered on.

As I've said, more than once now, if everyone was playing raids, you'd be putting time and money into them.

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Vinceman.4572

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While I agree to a lot of what you wrote, there are corrections to be made:First of all, 9 months of nothing after HoT was caused due to misconception of several stuff in the open world scenario. They had no plans to make HoT "harder" than the Tyria maps because there were people calling for it. Even the HoT beta had hard enemies but no feedback was given or listened to. It was a bad assumption or wrong development decision to do so but not triggered by a hardcore community or any other players. Let's face it: Beta players had access to parts of Verdant Brink and VG. Nobody saw AB, TD or DS before plus some of the harder hero points on this map. It was a shot in the dark from them and it went heavily wrong.

The releases of wing 2 & 3 during these 9 months had nothing to do that they only wanted to ship harder content during that time frame (and they never said that as well). Those wings were almost ready to go - and I repeat: developed before HoT - and something the small team could finish within that time while the rest - the bigger part of the devs as we all know - was focussing on overhauling HoT. Otherwise we would have seen the next LS much earlier. Should they have withholded those wings and risk to lose more people? I don't think so. During that time it seemed they were happy to release anything to please the player base.But they could have been more open to communicate with the player base and their plans about what happens internally. To the present day they heavily lack in PR skills - best seen on the release of "The Festival of the 4 Winds". One week before this event started they announced it, the marketing section must have been thankful for that 7 day forerun. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy about that event but an announcement that close to the release date for a thing lots of players wanted to be back since years. Oh my gosh, that's unprofessional as hell.

Also, I don't think the casual community is or was feeling disenfranchised due to raids at all. They were because of the above mentioned mistakes and still are because Anet cannot keep promises like releasing LS in a proper time frame. They extended the last two release cycles and still shipped out a map with a meta that obviously isn't what was planned before.In my opinion they have gotten better but it's far from being optimal. They could improve that if they'd give selected players access to a test server for LS and even balancing. It would improve their metrics a lot.

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Feanor.2358

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

And if they didn't, they wouldn't be doing them. And they do. For all the complaints about the pace, it can't be much faster in this game. You need to balance the pace of adding new content with the pace the players interested in them exhaust it. This does not mean the pace at which the top, hardcore players exhaust it. It means the pace of the average raider.

Plus, they probably want to limit the weekly raiding time somehow instead of extending it indefinitely. Meaning they probably won't want to rush new wings until they have a good idea how to do it.

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Malediktus.9250

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

And if they didn't, they wouldn't be doing them. And they do. For all the complaints about the pace, it can't be much faster in this game. You need to balance the pace of adding new content with the pace the players interested in them exhaust it. This does not mean the pace at which the top, hardcore players exhaust it. It means the pace of the average raider.

Plus, they probably want to limit the weekly raiding time somehow instead of extending it indefinitely. Meaning they probably won't want to rush new wings until they have a good idea how to do it.

I believe the weekly raiding time is a non issue. If your group only has 2 hours a week do your favorite 4 raid wings. Noone is forced to do all of them. Even if there would be 1000 raid wings it would not be a problem. In fact it would be a breath of fresh air to have enough choices to not have to do the same bosses every week.

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Dante.1763

Dante.1763

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@zealex.9410 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

From a "casuals" standpoint: The only reason im even doing raids right now is i want legendary armor for my main character, if i could obtain it in PVE through some other means id never touch raids in the first place(and thats literally why its there, to force people in PVE into raids), the entire nature of raids(no not the difficulty, the forced classes and forced roles) goes against one of the core reasons i bought this game despite my love of GW1, and i dont think they ever should have been added. FYI Vayne is correct, i spend more time in each of the zones farming them for the minis and the skins than i have ever spent doing raids, i come back to the game to do just that. i could also care less about the skins they contain(raids) even though my ultimate goal is to have all the skins i can obtain unlocked.

Im pretty sure gw1 had meta comps for its endgame.

Sure(at least till heroes came out and you could solo most of its end game content), but thats my point, this game wasnt supposed to have that. I got tired of it in GW1, having to wait ages for a monk or a tank was irritating as hell, and that type of gameplay didnt exist in GW2 until raids got added(outside of literally not allowing classes in to dungeons, ranger and necro being those classes), i dont like that type of gameplay.

U still need specific classes but you can ring them now in the form of heroes. Gw2 had that before raids in dungeons, fractals, wvw.

Eh you didnt really, last time i played i was doing HM just fine with random ass heroes thrown together. Spirit spammers are op as fuck in regular PVE in that game. And they work wonders in the UW.

In dungeons i never once needed "specific classes", i was able to do all dungeons on classes in gw2 with the exception of Ranger and Necro because they of how badly balanced they where when dungeons where popular. In Fractals even you dont need a healer, or a chrono, even in T4s. it helps if you have one in your group but its not required. CM is a different story and its why ive only done it twice.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

Is the game successful though?

Would it be here if it wasn't?

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Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

And if they didn't, they wouldn't be doing them. And they do. For all the complaints about the pace, it can't be much faster in this game. You need to balance the pace of adding new content with the pace the players interested in them exhaust it. This does not mean the pace at which the top, hardcore players exhaust it. It means the pace of the average raider.

Plus, they probably want to limit the weekly raiding time somehow instead of extending it indefinitely. Meaning they probably won't want to rush new wings until they have a good idea how to do it.

I believe the weekly raiding time is a non issue. If your group only has 2 hours a week do your favorite 4 raid wings. Noone is forced to do all of them. Even if there would be 1000 raid wings it would not be a problem. In fact it would be a breath of fresh air to have enough choices to not have to do the same bosses every week.

Mmm... if you only do your favorites, you'll always have the feeling you're missing out something. I think it would be better to have a "weekly raid wings" system in place, much like we have daily fractals. The game should give you an incentive to play a different subset every week. This way it will both give you a sense of job well done and it will keep you entertained longer, as what you suggest would become routine grind much faster. Some variance is always preferable.

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:

casually enjoy the open world content

If you ask for any content that isn't exactly this; then you'll get an army of angry casuals telling you how you're a minority; this content isn't good and just a side project and only their open world / living story content matters.

If you say that regardless of that, content is very slow, they'll say you're playing too much or playing through it too quickly.

If you compare to other games or the content cadence we've literally had in the past; they'll deny most of it.

The truth is, anet's content output has drastically reduced.

If you enjoy hardcore or skill-based mmorpg gaming, then yes this is not the right game for you. If you aren't heavily invested into communities or the game, I suggest you find something else. It hasn't and won't get any better.

I understand that gw2 is a casual mmo at heart and ita main target demographic are very casual players.Which is fine since Im very casual myself, but more than 6 month for 3 raid bosses and a fractal per year is something I cant wrap my mind around.The thing is that withiut a "hardcore" community there is no community at all due to the trickle down effect...if there are no hc raiders,there wont be casual raiders since there bo where to progressno casual raiders>no occasion raiders = a very poor pve community

Raids didn't exist in this game for 3.5 years. What boggles my mind is people who thing raids are a thing in this game at all. They're really a side show. Only Anet knows what percentage of the playerbase raids, but I'm guessing it's very very small, because if a fairly large portion of the playerbase did it, they'd come out more off.

This game, in PvE, has always been centered around the open world and it's why most of us are here (in my opinion). Those who focus on raids think the open world is boring. I don't and never have. But I don't particularly enjoy raiding.

The problem as I see it is that neither raids nor fractals(dungrons have been abandoned long ago) are released with any sensible pace, so if instanced group content is something you enjoy even as a side show(like myself) it just feels like a joke.If the main focus on the game is open-world content and story content it doesnt really show either.

Well it does show, because story content generally comes out every 2-3 months, with a new zone. That shows commitment to open world.

Consider how little story there is in a "LS" episode.

Story content isn't open world. You're still missing the point. Guys like me have plenty to do. Collections are part of open world content, not story INSTANCES.

Consider u can be done with the map in 4 to 5 days. (unless theres a timegated collection)

As an explorer and collector, I'm about experiencing a map. A raid caps you out once you beat the boss until next week. But there's caps on currency that keep people from raiding all the time. A raid might keep someone busy for a couple of months, an hour or two at a time. The thing is a lot of raids are just something someone runs through once a week for the currency, they have it on farm and that's it.

Well, get this, casual people farm the new zones. Like Raids, each zone usually has a time-gated currency. Want the new back pack skin, you have to have 700 of the currency of the current zone plus do the collections

All any MMO ever is is a collection of stuff to do to get the stuff you want. In a lot of games people are forced to raid to get the stuff they want, but here that's not true. That's why I don't play most games and I do play this one. I spend more time in new zones that four days, and that's every new zone that's come out. It's a new place to explore, a new place to farm, there are achievements to get, collections to finish.

I tend not to use Dulfy except as a last resort. If you're figuring out stuff on your own it certainly takes longer. Coming from an adventure game background, to me, that's part of the game. Those who don't see achievements are part of the game, or don't run to dulfy to look everything up, are going to say that raiding is better or keeps you busy longer, because they like that kind of content. But if you're in that 10% that raid, that means 90% of the population aren't doing that. How many people are in those new zones and what percentage of the population spends more than 4 days in them? Does anyone know?

I bet Anet does.

Anet does what it does because it gets people back to the game and playing. They wouldn't keep doing it if it doesn't work. If a new raid got more people back to the game and playing they'd come out more often. It's just logic.

Well anet thought they knew what they doing during the esports period. They can be wrong.

And when i said 4 days i meant fir collections, story, experience, exploration. Everything.

Anet tried to get esports off the ground. They've been doing Living Story for a very very long time. If it wasn't working, like esports, it would have stopped. They're not wrong because the game is successful. I guarantee you 100% it's not successful because of raids.

living story is so successful they forgot about other content and cut funds for the sustainers of the game like raiders and fractal players who constantly play this game everyday for hours. doesn't look successful at all.instead the living story they could make dungeons via that stories and make unique sets and weapons skins from that dungeon to force people to play together and actually think and play the game and not just do story once, 2nd time for achievements and that's it. nothing to do anymore. gameplay in story isn't fun at all. dungeons would be fun. and final conclusion of story like mordremoth, scarlet, zhaitan, balthazar etc to be raid bosses. boom, people grind this game everyday for hours and not play some story once and quit till another chapter comes. people don't go back doing story. they just do it to unlock maps and rewards without effort. there's no real progression behind living story.

And yet people keep playing. The add a new raid, and they get 10% of the people who play playing. They add a new living world, and I'm sure they get a bigger return on that investment. Obviously they must if they keep doing it.

what bigger return? do story once, do some achievement in maps, farm it a bit and that's it. what really gives 'em return is the gemstore. what keep the player base are raids. no raids means no end game. no end game means people won't play this game and won't spend money on gemstore. people invent a lot of gold just to gear characters for raids. some evne buy gems and convert 'em to gold. casual players don't need gear. all they need are skins and some are exclusive to raiding.

Bigger return means getting more people playing the game for more hours. Surely that's logical. More people spending money in the gem store. That's the biggest return. The living story obviously provides that, and raids probably don't. Because if raids did that's what they'd be doing.

And if they didn't, they wouldn't be doing them. And they do. For all the complaints about the pace, it can't be much faster in this game. You need to balance the pace of adding new content with the pace the players interested in them exhaust it. This does not mean the pace at which the top, hardcore players exhaust it. It means the pace of the average raider.

Plus, they probably want to limit the weekly raiding time somehow instead of extending it indefinitely. Meaning they probably won't want to rush new wings until they have a good idea how to do it.

I believe the weekly raiding time is a non issue. If your group only has 2 hours a week do your favorite 4 raid wings. Noone is forced to do all of them. Even if there would be 1000 raid wings it would not be a problem. In fact it would be a breath of fresh air to have enough choices to not have to do the same bosses every week.

Mmm... if you only do your favorites, you'll always have the feeling you're missing out something. I think it would be better to have a "weekly raid wings" system in place, much like we have daily fractals. The game should give you an incentive to play a different subset every week. This way it will both give you a sense of job well done
and
it will keep you entertained longer, as what you suggest would become routine grind much faster. Some variance is always preferable.

Daily fractals is prob the worst thing they did to fractals. It feels like a job and it ruined the replayability the content has.

Now im all for rewarding different wings more per week to give players variance. But lets say they do this with 5 or so wings per week. By the time we get new wings the replayability of the content will suffer because after the weeklies u wont have a reason to run the rest.

Like in fractals. Dugeons pre hot and i suppose still have a better system. Ppl can play for as long as they want and not feel like they hit a wall or that they're rewarded very poorly because they want to play more of the content the game offers

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Feanor.2358

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I disagree. Remember "Swamps of the Mists"? Compared to this, the replayability of the daily fractals is fantastic.

And the problem with "play for as long as you want" is that it either becomes the best farm, or becomes abandoned. See the history of dungeons who made the transition from the former to the latter.

No, a limited, varied selection per week will be much better. Sure, it will limit the raiding playtime of the very hardcore players. That's OK. It doesn't have to reduce their playtime below what they already have. And it could still provide rewards for the non-weekly wings, just not as high. The goal is to avoid a situation like in Diablo 3 where your progress is defined by the amount of hours per day you can physically spend in the game.

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maddoctor.2738

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@"zealex.9410" said:Like in fractals. Dugeons pre hot and i suppose still have a better system. Ppl can play for as long as they want and not feel like they hit a wall or that they're rewarded very poorly because they want to play more of the content the game offers

Swamps of the Mists was a thing pre hot. Fortunately they fixed that by adding the daily system, without it the fractal system was horrible and gave incentive to run only the same fractal (the fastest one). With a daily system there is incentive to run a different set of fractals every day, so variety wins.

As for Dungeons, they now give you a reward for running 8 different individual paths. In the beginning it was all about running CoF P1 with as many characters as possible. Then more "easy" paths were added but we never had incentive to run 8 of those. The system was similar to the fractal one, run the fastest/easiest path. Now at least you can be rewarded for running 8 different paths. They could expand this and make Dungeon Master repeatable (finish every dungeon path for an extra reward) but the reward would need to be amazing to give incentive to do so.

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zealex.9410

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@"Feanor.2358" said:I disagree. Remember "Swamps of the Mists"? Compared to this, the replayability of the daily fractals is fantastic.

And the problem with "play for as long as you want" is that it either becomes the best farm, or becomes abandoned. See the history of dungeons who made the transition from the former to the latter.

No, a limited, varied selection per week will be much better. Sure, it will limit the raiding playtime of the very hardcore players. That's OK. It doesn't have to reduce their playtime below what they already have. And it could still provide rewards for the non-weekly wings, just not as high. The goal is to avoid a situation like in Diablo 3 where your progress is defined by the amount of hours per day you can physically spend in the game.

Dungeons still give good rewards. The fact that they arent played has to do with perception and general burn out from playing them from launch. Not with the way they work.

Idk id love to have diablo 3's system. Putting more effort in the game and being rewarded for it. Instead of "hey i get to run 1 or 2 deepstone this week, much replayability, such wow" because doing it outside that gives garbage rewards.

Thats the reason i love cms so much i get to play the content more than once or twice per week and i can meaningfully put time elarn tactics and greatly improve for that content. Like statics used to with dungeons.

Swamp of the mist didnt happen because u could play as many fractals or w/e fractal as you liked it haplened because rewards are the same across the board and some fractals are smaller than others. Poor balancing of rewards shouldnt limit replayability.

An idea thats been mentioned in the past would be to give a "random fractal" feature and put better rewards for doing them without any major diminishing returns.

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Nah, the grind in D3 was the reason I quit that game. You're either no-life professional player or you have zero chance of getting to the top. GW2 does that much better, and much more elegantly. Participation still counts, but it doesn't require SOOOO much of it. Being able to clear the daily/weekly tasks is a great plus.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Like in fractals. Dugeons pre hot and i suppose still have a better system. Ppl can play for as long as they want and not feel like they hit a wall or that they're rewarded very poorly because they want to play more of the content the game offers

Swamps of the Mists was a thing pre hot. Fortunately they fixed that by adding the daily system, without it the fractal system was horrible and gave incentive to run only the same fractal (the fastest one). With a daily system there is incentive to run a different set of fractals every day, so variety wins.

As for Dungeons, they now give you a reward for running 8 different individual paths. In the beginning it was all about running CoF P1 with as many characters as possible. Then more "easy" paths were added but we never had incentive to run
8
of those. The system was similar to the fractal one, run the fastest/easiest path. Now at least you can be rewarded for running 8 different paths. They could expand this and make Dungeon Master repeatable (finish every dungeon path for an extra reward) but the reward would need to be amazing to give incentive to do so.

And they killed any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones. This is not a trade we should have to make other games have moved past this and allowed for ppl to have more to do with their game and time.

The way dungeons worked allowed you put alot more effort into each path learn it and optimise it because u werent limite to once or twice a week for said path. Even today's dungeon system with the refreshable 8 paths allows for this to some extent to happen.

The only thing that remotely resembles that in fotm are cms.

Honestly the daily t1-4 feel more like a job than playing the game.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Like in fractals. Dugeons pre hot and i suppose still have a better system. Ppl can play for as long as they want and not feel like they hit a wall or that they're rewarded very poorly because they want to play more of the content the game offers

Swamps of the Mists was a thing pre hot. Fortunately they fixed that by adding the daily system, without it the fractal system was horrible and gave incentive to run only the same fractal (the fastest one). With a daily system there is incentive to run a different set of fractals every day, so variety wins.

As for Dungeons, they now give you a reward for running 8 different individual paths. In the beginning it was all about running CoF P1 with as many characters as possible. Then more "easy" paths were added but we never had incentive to run
8
of those. The system was similar to the fractal one, run the fastest/easiest path. Now at least you can be rewarded for running 8 different paths. They could expand this and make Dungeon Master repeatable (finish every dungeon path for an extra reward) but the reward would need to be amazing to give incentive to do so.

And they killed any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones. This is not a trade we should have to make other games have moved past this and allowed for ppl to have more to do with their game and time.

The way dungeons worked allowed you put alot more effort into each path learn it and optimise it because u werent limite to once or twice a week for said path. Even today's dungeon system with the refreshable 8 paths allows for this to some extent to happen.

The only thing that remotely resembles that in fotm are cms.

Honestly the daily t1-4 feel more like a job than playing the game.

And doing fractal 40 over and over and over for hours feels like a game? Yeah, no. I'd much rather have the current system, thank you very much.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Like in fractals. Dugeons pre hot and i suppose still have a better system. Ppl can play for as long as they want and not feel like they hit a wall or that they're rewarded very poorly because they want to play more of the content the game offers

Swamps of the Mists was a thing pre hot. Fortunately they fixed that by adding the daily system, without it the fractal system was horrible and gave incentive to run only the same fractal (the fastest one). With a daily system there is incentive to run a different set of fractals every day, so variety wins.

As for Dungeons, they now give you a reward for running 8 different individual paths. In the beginning it was all about running CoF P1 with as many characters as possible. Then more "easy" paths were added but we never had incentive to run
8
of those. The system was similar to the fractal one, run the fastest/easiest path. Now at least you can be rewarded for running 8 different paths. They could expand this and make Dungeon Master repeatable (finish every dungeon path for an extra reward) but the reward would need to be amazing to give incentive to do so.

And they killed any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones. This is not a trade we should have to make other games have moved past this and allowed for ppl to have more to do with their game and time.

The way dungeons worked allowed you put alot more effort into each path learn it and optimise it because u werent limite to once or twice a week for said path. Even today's dungeon system with the refreshable 8 paths allows for this to some extent to happen.

The only thing that remotely resembles that in fotm are cms.

Honestly the daily t1-4 feel more like a job than playing the game.

And doing fractal 40 over and over and over for hours feels like a game? Yeah, no. I'd much rather have the current system, thank you very much.

Lol who said repeating the same fractal over and over and over. This is poor balancing in terms of rewards or the fractal it self being outlier. Something which they adress with updates.

Im saying that i dont want raids to become something that i do 5 or 6 encounters of per week and dont touch again while theres so much more of them to play. Which is exactly what fractals are atm.

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@"zealex.9410" said:And they killed any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones. This is not a trade we should have to make other games have moved past this and allowed for ppl to have more to do with their game and time.

Only they didn't kill any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones... the rewards of fractals are the same as they've always been. They added EXTRA rewards for the daily ones, they did not remove any Fractal rewards. If they add weekly Raids, it will allow all paths to be run, just like they do with Fractals. Then, once you finish the weekly Raid paths you can run all the other paths you want, for the same rewards they have now. I don't see why you find this problematic. Without weekly Raid paths, once we reach a large number of paths, you'd only run the easiest/fastest ones, this is ALREADY happening as Wing 5 and Wing 2 have much much less participation than the other wings. With a weekly rotation all paths will share the spotlight.

The way dungeons worked allowed you put alot more effort into each path learn it and optimise it because u werent limite to once or twice a week for said path. Even today's dungeon system with the refreshable 8 paths allows for this to some extent to happen.

"Optimize" one path and run that one for hours/days. I don't think that's healthy at all.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:And they killed any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones. This is not a trade we should have to make other games have moved past this and allowed for ppl to have more to do with their game and time.

Only they didn't kill any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones... the rewards of fractals are the same as they've always been. They added EXTRA rewards for the daily ones, they did not remove any Fractal rewards. If they add weekly Raids, it will allow all paths to be run, just like they do with Fractals. Then, once you finish the weekly Raid paths you can run all the other paths you want, for the same rewards they have now. I don't see why you find this problematic. Without weekly Raid paths, once we reach a large number of paths, you'd only run the easiest/fastest ones, this is ALREADY happening as Wing 5 and Wing 2 have much much less participation than the other wings. With a weekly rotation all paths will share the spotlight.

The way dungeons worked allowed you put alot more effort into each path learn it and optimise it because u werent limite to once or twice a week for said path. Even today's dungeon system with the refreshable 8 paths allows for this to some extent to happen.

"Optimize" one path and run that one for hours/days. I don't think that's healthy at all.

Not quite. For raids the rewards per boss are ok(ish) so the incentive is there.

As ppl already dont run w2 and 5 because the rewards they give are not balanced with the effort they take so ppl will skip them (like they've been doing with spirit woods or any other event that doesnt give li for a long time)

For fractals the incentive is literally not there to even think of touching a fractal outside the dailies. U see this in lfg every day. Iv never seen (maybe once ir twice) ppl run other fractals than the dailies unless they had a reason (new fractal so they wanted to check it out or collection or something.)

The base fractal rewards are abyssmal.

To put it into prespective how raids would play out if they worked with the fractal system.

"Maaan i love dhuum,i wish i had a reason to do that encounter more than once every month"

Again, i got no issue with having variety. I wouldnt have a problem with diff dailies if there was a reason to play fractals past it.

Theres been suggestions from adding the same system that dungeons have to something more targeted to veterans like a fractal gauntlet or smth.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Like in fractals. Dugeons pre hot and i suppose still have a better system. Ppl can play for as long as they want and not feel like they hit a wall or that they're rewarded very poorly because they want to play more of the content the game offers

Swamps of the Mists was a thing pre hot. Fortunately they fixed that by adding the daily system, without it the fractal system was horrible and gave incentive to run only the same fractal (the fastest one). With a daily system there is incentive to run a different set of fractals every day, so variety wins.

As for Dungeons, they now give you a reward for running 8 different individual paths. In the beginning it was all about running CoF P1 with as many characters as possible. Then more "easy" paths were added but we never had incentive to run
8
of those. The system was similar to the fractal one, run the fastest/easiest path. Now at least you can be rewarded for running 8 different paths. They could expand this and make Dungeon Master repeatable (finish every dungeon path for an extra reward) but the reward would need to be amazing to give incentive to do so.

And they killed any reason to do fractals after the 3 daily ones. This is not a trade we should have to make other games have moved past this and allowed for ppl to have more to do with their game and time.

The way dungeons worked allowed you put alot more effort into each path learn it and optimise it because u werent limite to once or twice a week for said path. Even today's dungeon system with the refreshable 8 paths allows for this to some extent to happen.

The only thing that remotely resembles that in fotm are cms.

Honestly the daily t1-4 feel more like a job than playing the game.

And doing fractal 40 over and over and over for hours feels like a game? Yeah, no. I'd much rather have the current system, thank you very much.

Lol who said repeating the same fractal over and over and over. This is poor balancing in terms of rewards or the fractal it self being outlier. Something which they adress with updates.

Im saying that i dont want raids to become something that i do 5 or 6 encounters of per week and dont touch again while theres so much more of them to play. Which is exactly what fractals are atm.

You'll always have a single fastest fractal. They killed fractal 40 farm, people started to do the same on 42. If it wasn't for the dailies, you can bet these would be the only decent groups you'd find.

And I'm not saying raids should be 5-6 encounters per week. But they shouldn't expand indefinitely either. But 5 wings per week is actually nice. 6 may be fine too. 10? Way too much.

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