New Dagger Storm Is Unfun Power Creep (Please Anet stop doing these arbitrary power creeps)

[Crab Fear.1624]

some variety is always welcome.

why re most elites for all professions in the game so bad?

it's like "choose this one or else"

how would you make dagger storm? there's a problem, so offer a solution. let's brainstorm

[samo.1054]

It's really just like so many other invuln. skills out there and there are also similarities on dealing with it the same way as you deal with Warrior's rampage. Besides that, I'm willing to bet that you will still get killed by warrior on rampage more often than by a thief in daggerstorm. I can't see why people make such a big fuss about it really. The skill has its usage now, while before it really did not. How is that a bad thing?

All in all, yes, I do not agree with such skills existing and I think that you shouldn't be able to just deal damage while being invuln. to damage and that goes for ALL the classes.

[KrHome.1920]

Every single skill that deals damage while evading is cancer - no matter how much damage it deals and how long the cooldown is. The few counters to evades such as spectral wall are gimmicky at best and easy to avoid.

It should not be possible to deal damage while sitting in an evade frame. That's bad game design.

Yes, Dagger Storm was weak before. I even named my thief "Agent Dagger Storm" to troll my team in PvP ("You aren't really running DS, are you? Please change the elite skill or I will go afk!").

The skill offers too much now. It's extremely versatile. It negates Rampage, Endure Pain, Soulbeast burst, Holo forge burst, Reaper Shroud and lots of other stuff without the need to kite (which means wasting dodges or even Shadowstep). On condi thief it is a very strong time window after dodge- and evade-spamming to refill initiative and endurance while even keeping up pressure without any counterplay except running away which does not work against a thief.

It's just strong. People just did not figure out until now how strong it has become. I will take it over Basilisk all day now as it's a great baiting and recovering skill.

Only Deadeyes should not use it for obvious reasons (reveal break).

[samo.1054]

@KrHome.1920 said:The skill offers too much now. It's extremely versatile. It negates Rampage, Endure Pain, Soulbeast burst, Holo forge burst, Reaper Shroud and lots of other stuff without the need to kite (which means wasting dodges or even Shadowstep). .

I can't see anything wrong with it negating those things as they are equally retarded.

[KrHome.1920]

It does more than that (as I mentioned) and that's the problem. Besides that you should remember that theef has already had options before to avoid these things.

[Oglaf.1074]

@SoulSin.5682 said:That was indeed unnecessary. I mean... evasion of all things?

Dagger Storm is now the perfect run away tool. Extra speed, reflect, evasion, stability and Cripple. And can clean one condition.

Spinning.... extra speed... running away... quickly? Fast?

Gotta go fast!!!

Let’s rename it Sanic Storm. :lol:

[Turk.5460]

@TwiceDead.1963 said:Anybody want to run 10+ thieves and SS+DS into an enemy zerg? Sounds like hilarious fun.

Don't forget to bring venoms and also be in full Viper's gear!

[KrHome.1920]

double venom share s/d viper (or even trailblazer) thief trolling:

thief1 casts venoms, double sword2 to target, thief1 dagger storm, thief2 kites, double sword2 to teleport backthief2 casts venoms, double sword2 to target, thief2 dagger storm, thief1 kites, double sword2 to teleport back

profit and zero counterplay

for the case that something goes wrong: just equip shadowstep and instant reflexes as backup

[Vornollo.5182]

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Vornollo.5182" said:Oh kitten..This is the exact opposite of what should happen... Too many classes got too much sustain while dealing damage,

that should be toned down gamewide

, but instead they add more..?Adding sustain is not necessarily a bad thing, in fact some skills could use more sustainability.

Can't help but feel this a little like "everyone else has it, so why shouldn't we?" sort of thing.Just because there's a lot of people saying 1+1=3 doesn't make it right.Those others also need toning down.

[Artaz.3819]

After some play time:

• DS is awesome in Zerg v Zerg standoffs. You trigger traps/marks and enemies blow all kinds of alpha on you while you sit pretty in evasion. Your zerg crushes other zerg if bait taken especially if Warriors follow up with the bubble. Hint, trait Payback in Deadeye line for some real OP :open_mouth:
• DS will be nerfed soon to prevent point capture in PvP for sure.
• It would be nice if this was an ammo Elite that had 4 charges for 1s each (1s cooldown). I'd like it to play more like a pseudo-Mirage style and for it to really have some more intelligent counter-play use.

[Safandula.8723]

I was using DS nearly all the time in wvw, due to amount of soulbeasts and deadeyes. I already 1 shoted few deadeyes. I like the change, but i can agree its to op. 4,5 s invulnerable with dmg, combo finisher and reflect. :D :D I see the use for that in zerg/blob fights, finally im not gonna be kicked out of a squad ( maybe (i rly hope so)).I like the change but i think, it needs nerf, maybe ammunition system or at least shorten the duration to 3/ 3,5 sec.

[Turk.5460]

@Safandula.8723 said:... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

With your reflect only? No you didn't.

[Safandula.8723]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

With your reflect only? No you didn't.

do you have any idea what happens when ~14 k hp thief 2x double tap u? ^^ check it out

[Turk.5460]

That wouldn't really be a 1 shot then, but I see how it could down the initial attacker if they don't have much hp. Their power and your ferocity would have to be pretty high for that kind of damage though.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

With your reflect only? No you didn't.

On my DE, a three round burst with assassin's signet active can down a full zerk DE. So it's well possible for that same full zerk DE to down himself with one reflected three round burst. It's one of the reasons why spotter's shot is safer for building malice.

[Turk.5460]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

With your reflect only? No you didn't.

On my DE, a three round burst with assassin's signet active can down a full zerk DE. So it's well possible for that same full zerk DE to down himself with one reflected three round burst. It's one of the reasons why spotter's shot is safer for building malice.

Only the power is applicable from the original source. The precision and ferocity all come from whomever is reflecting. Many %damage increase traits that have requirements also won't apply their bonuses as well like: Twin Fangs, Ferocious Strikes, No Quarter, Iron Sight, and Exposed Weakness - Unless the person who is reflecting also has those traits equipped and their prerequisites are met. Same with things like Sigil of Force and Scholar Runes 6th piece bonus.

[Majic.4801]

Guess I'm going to have to dust off and try Dagger Storm now...

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:... I already 1 shoted few deadeyes.

With your reflect only? No you didn't.

On my DE, a three round burst with assassin's signet active can down a full zerk DE. So it's well possible for that same full zerk DE to down himself with one reflected three round burst. It's one of the reasons why spotter's shot is safer for building malice.

Only the power is applicable from the original source. The precision and ferocity all come from whomever is reflecting. Many %damage increase traits that have requirements also won't apply their bonuses as well like: Twin Fangs, Ferocious Strikes, No Quarter, Iron Sight, and Exposed Weakness - Unless the person who is reflecting also has those traits equipped and their prerequisites are met. Same with things like Sigil of Force and Scholar Runes 6th piece bonus.

Ah, interesting. Thanks for the info! :)

[Caysadia.7405]

I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

[Yannir.4132]

I say reduce the duration by 50%.

[Crab Fear.1624]

i have played the new form, and it's not the game changer some of you are making it out to be.

it hit up to 8 times if you have enough foes and they are close enough.

they only skills you can use while doing DS are insta cast like venom of signets

long cooldown

doesn't recharge anything.

it's a long evade with dinky damage.

before the change it was garbage/very situational

edit: i guess they can rename the skill to super escape,

[Tails.9372]

From what I've seen it seems like most people are fine with this change (not here but in general).

@Crab Fear.1624 said:edit: i guess they can rename the skill to super escape,Impaling Lotus ++

[Warkind.6745]

@"Caysadia.7405" said:I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

[Turk.5460]

@Warkind.6745 said:

@"Caysadia.7405" said:I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that were already applied before activating the skill.

[Warkind.6745]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Warkind.6745 said:

@"Caysadia.7405" said:I feel like thief was in a good spot last patch with it's survivability/elusiveness, and then Anet slides in this monstrosity. It's pretty much an invuln with the stab on cast, except it also does reflects and does some DECENT damage, doesn't even prevent capture point contribution to my knowledge. What option do you have when you face this other then "guess i'll jerk off for 4 seconds until its over". Just feels super cheesy to both use and fight against. Remove the evade, make the daggers unblockable or something, but in its current state dagger storm just isn't F U N.

How do you fight rangers and warriors when they pop signet or endure pain?

I'll preface this by saying - I'm all for the change, it's nice and not OP. It isn't mandatory now, as BV is still competitive, and SM is far superior if you are DE.

That said, it can't really be compared to EP or SoS - both of those allow conditions to continue to be applied, continue to do damage, and allow the user to be stunned/feared/immobd, etc. The only thing that can negatively affect DS now are conditions that

were already applied

before activating the skill.

I still think you'd handle it in the same way, though? I'm not running a condition build, but when I see a warrior pop endure pain I don't get up in their face. Greatsword or axe does a lot more damage than the daggers.