Downed state - Nerf it ?

[Justine.6351]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:I just love how people just assume stuff about other people.

Just remember that for every person that thinks No Downstate is a good idea there is an equal amount that doesn't agree.

Pot calling the kettle black in that last full sentence. Assuming you know everyone to make that assumption that the WvWers are 50/50 on no downstate. Based on the many reddit and gw2 forum threads due to that week, the vocal majority leans towards the fact no down state week was enjoyed. Whether or not the majority I speak of is the majority of active WvW'ers or if they represent the actual majority of WvW'ers, however without actually knowing this, your assumption cannot be made.

Just wanted to point out the contradiction on your comment. Thats all

Im out

Well, do you have the links? Quick google search and looking at the first hits, a Reddit poll was in favor of keeping downed state (47 to 38 with the remaining undecided) and a forum thread had a 55 to 45 split also in favor of keeping downed state.

Yeah...Considering downed state favors those who outnumber their enemies, its not really surprising that they would have the more numerous votes in favor of keeping it.

It would be like holding a vote, for nerfing a class, in its own subforum.

So what we have here is a claim that the vocal majority was in favor of no downed state, yet the polls done showed they where in favor of downed state, but those that are in favor of downed state are representing too many players despite the fact that they are in practice the vocal minority compared to the GW2 playerbase and the same people that are claimed to be the vocal majority in favor of no downed state.

Right...

No, it's not like holding a vote for nerfing a class in it's own subforum. It's like holding a vote in the WvW forum and not liking the result so we should ignore it.

Yes it is exactly like how I compared it...The poll on no-downed state was stupid because it would never pass due to the sheer numbers of people who depend heavily on it.

It would be like allowing your kids (3 fat and 1 fit) ice cream after breakfast for the last 5 years and then taking a vote on discontinuing it going forward. Of course that one kid is going to get outvoted by the other 3. The answer isn't to have a vote, its to not feed your kids ice cream after breakfast lol...

And this would be like not allowing your kids to eat ice cream after breakfast and then after 7 years say kitten it, we're not eating breakfast anymore.

One is healthy and one is not. The number of people in wvw who cannot dodge something so obviously telegraphed like drop the hammer is a symptom of reliance on downed state. Another item that ties into this carry is easy stability, auto cc break traits and auto invuln traits. Why should anyone be expected to learn how to play when they can just rely on these safety nets? PvP modes feel good when fighting players, not safety mechanics.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:I just love how people just assume stuff about other people.

Just remember that for every person that thinks No Downstate is a good idea there is an equal amount that doesn't agree.

Pot calling the kettle black in that last full sentence. Assuming you know everyone to make that assumption that the WvWers are 50/50 on no downstate. Based on the many reddit and gw2 forum threads due to that week, the vocal majority leans towards the fact no down state week was enjoyed. Whether or not the majority I speak of is the majority of active WvW'ers or if they represent the actual majority of WvW'ers, however without actually knowing this, your assumption cannot be made.

Just wanted to point out the contradiction on your comment. Thats all

Im out

Well, do you have the links? Quick google search and looking at the first hits, a Reddit poll was in favor of keeping downed state (47 to 38 with the remaining undecided) and a forum thread had a 55 to 45 split also in favor of keeping downed state.

Yeah...Considering downed state favors those who outnumber their enemies, its not really surprising that they would have the more numerous votes in favor of keeping it.

It would be like holding a vote, for nerfing a class, in its own subforum.

So what we have here is a claim that the vocal majority was in favor of no downed state, yet the polls done showed they where in favor of downed state, but those that are in favor of downed state are representing too many players despite the fact that they are in practice the vocal minority compared to the GW2 playerbase and the same people that are claimed to be the vocal majority in favor of no downed state.

Right...

No, it's not like holding a vote for nerfing a class in it's own subforum. It's like holding a vote in the WvW forum and not liking the result so we should ignore it.

Yes it is exactly like how I compared it...The poll on no-downed state was stupid because it would never pass due to the sheer numbers of people who depend heavily on it.

It would be like allowing your kids (3 fat and 1 fit) ice cream after breakfast for the last 5 years and then taking a vote on discontinuing it going forward. Of course that one kid is going to get outvoted by the other 3. The answer isn't to have a vote, its to not feed your kids ice cream after breakfast lol...

And this would be like not allowing your kids to eat ice cream after breakfast and then after 7 years say kitten it, we're not eating breakfast anymore.

One is healthy and one is not. The number of people in wvw who cannot dodge something so obviously telegraphed like drop the hammer is a symptom of reliance on downed state. Another item that ties into this carry is easy stability, auto cc break traits and auto invuln traits. Why should anyone be expected to learn how to play when they can just rely on these safety nets? PvP modes feel good when fighting players, not safety mechanics.

Except its not obviously telegraphed in zergs and one of the most common complains to the point where Anet frequently have had to remake spell effects. Sometimes I wonder if people play the same game the rest of us do. People still loose fights despite those "safety nets". How is anyone "expected" to learn if you put them up against opponents that for them are impossible to win against no matter how many friendlies they bring?

Sometimes I think people expect players to just get told l2p and suddenly by those inspiring words they become platinum level PvPers that got 10 dodges.

[Sylosi.6503]

@Justine.6351 said:The number of people in wvw who cannot dodge something so obviously telegraphed like drop the hammer is a symptom of reliance on downed state.

Not really, it is merely what you would expect from a playerbase in a casual MMORPG, in a game mode that is not competitive in any meaningful sense and is relatively low skilled fullstop.

@Justine.6351 said:Another item that ties into this carry is easy stability, auto cc break traits and auto invuln traits. Why should anyone be expected to learn how to play when they can just rely on these safety nets? PvP modes feel good when fighting players, not safety mechanics.

Comments like this just show a lack of understanding of game design (in multiple ways).

So to start off, you know why when I play say Counterstrike for example they don't need to have auto invuln traits, because it actually takes skill to land the damage in the first place, because you have to aim, in GW2 the single biggest carry by far is that this game is tab targeted so aims for you (and then even the few things you have to aim which are mostly huge AOE fields is a test of can you hit a barn door), I realize this may come as a shock, but pressing a button and having the game aim for you is not highly skilled game play, it is the biggest safety net in the game.

Secondly certain classes require passive stuns breaks or passive damage reduction on stun simply down to the design of the class, take engy for example (and for the sake of simplicity we are ignoring Holosmith for this example), it only has one weapon bar, so this puts pressure on the utility slots to make up for the condi removal, evades, mobility, damage, etc that other classes get from having two weapons (or 4 attunements for eles), which is traditionally what kits were there to alleviate.

Problem is where do you put the stunbreaks, engy has much less freedom to "waste" a utility slot on a stunbreak, because they have much more pressure to fill them with the stuff they need to make up from only having one weapon, so you could then maybe think okay we will give engies stunbreaks on many utilty skills/toolbelt skills so they can still pick what they need to make up for the damage, mobility, cleansing, blocks, etc and then they will still be able to have a couple of stunbreaks like every other class can easily do.

Except that doesn't work either, because engy spends much more time on their utility/toolbelt skills (most notably kits) as part of making up for the deficiencies of only one weapon bar, so what you would then get is the problem they can't use skill A or B, because it is also their stunbreak (and now they have no passive stunbreak), so essentially they would have a much, much higher opportunity cost for using a stun break than other classes, to the point it would be a huge disadvantage.

Which is why since the start of the game the people who actually have a clue about game design have given engy passive traits for stunbreaks, damage reduction when stunned, etc.

Lastly this game is not SC2, it is a casual MMORPG, that overall is competitively a joke, so you design for that player base, not for players who are under the delusion that GW2 (and WvW even more) is a bastion of skilled gameplay. GW2's relatively low skilled combat system aside, the biggest thing lacking in GW2 WvW as far as skilled play is concerned is competition, WvW is a complete joke in that regard, if you genuinely wanted skilled PvP, you wouldn't be playing this game, certainly not WvW.

[Israel.7056]

Any game mode where people compete against one another is a competitive game mode. How much meaning you personally assign to that competition is entirely subjective but it's nonsensical to say that wvw isn't a competitive game mode. It is. The reason what we call "casuals" are so attracted to it is i think largely due to the absence of an ultra time consuming never ending gear grind which plagues most mmos.

The only reason pros prefer one game to another is money. They do not care how much "skill" is required they simply chase the big paychecks and those happen to be in other games because those other game devs need to try to develop that kind of scene around their game to maintain a consumer base whereas mmos usually do not.

The term "skill" is also used as a catch all term to describe a wide range of things not just what we might more succinctly call "mechanical skill" which is what it seems you guys are only talking about now.

[Axelteas.7192]

Downed state is unfair because rangers (his pet still attacks you 100%) and necros are overpowered in that state

[iKeostuKen.2738]

Im now in the favor of keeping it just from the sheer irony that people say downstate is for the unskilled, when theres many ways to get a safe stomp, ontop of that, theres poison and free hits. Keep it.

[Kolisch.4691]

Let's start by making whoever gets downed by someone with an outnumbered buff dies instantly...

[bq pd.2148]

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:Im now in the favor of keeping it just from the sheer irony that people say downstate is for the unskilled, when theres many ways to get a safe stomp, ontop of that, theres poison and free hits. Keep it.

its something that can change the outcome of a fight. everything that has a greater effect in you winning or not will be considered a tool for the unskilled as long as the losing one claims he would have won if the winner didnt use it.obviously a more experienced player can use every tool to a greater effect, downstate aswell.i would still prefer to reduce the frequency one can go down and rally/get rezzed as i would prefer the fight revolve less around stomping and rezzing and more about you know the rest of it :3

[Sovereign.1093]

:/ downstate rally has been nerfed so much since the old days.

soon ppl be asking, auto siege, and auto commanders, even auto pugs.

@.@

[sephiroth.4217]

Removing downstate will only encourage more 1 shot builds... You guys sure you want that?

[Israel.7056]

@sephiroth.4217 said:Removing downstate will only encourage more 1 shot builds... You guys sure you want that?

This is static thinking. The game can always be rebalanced.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Israel.7056 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:Removing downstate will only encourage more 1 shot builds... You guys sure you want that?

This is static thinking. The game can always be rebalanced.

And you can rely on Anet to do that?

[Israel.7056]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:Removing downstate will only encourage more 1 shot builds... You guys sure you want that?

This is static thinking. The game can always be rebalanced.

And you can rely on Anet to do that?

I believe that if hypothetically they removed downstate that they would attempt subsequent rebalancing.

I cannot say with any confidence that it would be either timely or good given their track record.

But I've also played through I think every single meta the game has ever had and I think that if I can go through the old culling carried perma stealth c and d thief meta and the deathly chill reaper shout meta without throwing my computer out the window I could deal with getting one shot from time to time by mesmers or thieves or whatever (which kinda already happens anyways let's be real.)

[Sovereign.1093]

l2play issue. Focus downs, no problem. If you can't kill them fast enough, they shouldn't be yours to take. Skilled fighters can do this fast and proper.

[Israel.7056]

@Sovereign.1093 said:l2play issue. Focus downs, no problem. If you can't kill them fast enough, they shouldn't be yours to take. Skilled fighters can do this fast and proper.

If you're right then nothing much will change in terms of outcomes if downed state is removed right?

[Warlord.9074]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:If the no downed state wVW weekend has shown us something, is that it should not be removed.

And so on.

If lets say 50% or more of the community disagrees with this assessment, than it's only shown us that a vocal minority disapproves of no down state. Id say this statement is closer to the truth.

I mean we can keep downstate, but invulnerability on down has to go. As in the 1st 1-2 seconds a person goes down they are invulnerable this has to go. Down state health needs to be reduced by at least 25%, and downstate auto procs like Jade winds on downed neeed to be looked at.

Other things. If you have 20 guys and the enemy has 70, downstate is pointless for you, you are just going to die anyways. Downstate only really favors the side that has more numbers, or even number fights. Like if you have 20 and are actually winning the 20 v 70 the side with 70 has a very unfair advantage. Lets be real even number fights is a rare occurrence. Can make the case if you are wiping in an even number fight you do not deserve to win.

[Shining One.1635]

@Israel.7056 said:This is static thinking. The game can always be rebalanced.Wouldn't it make more sense to rebalance first?

[Israel.7056]

@Shining One.1635 said:Wouldn't it make more sense to rebalance first?

Hard to say as it's unclear to me exactly how they go about rebalancing in the first place.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Sovereign.1093 said::/ downstate rally has been nerfed so much since the old days.

soon ppl be asking, auto siege, and auto commanders, even auto pugs.

@.@Or even more horrible stuff like auto scouting, passive stat buffs and waypoints anywhere.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Israel.7056 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:l2play issue. Focus downs, no problem. If you can't kill them fast enough, they shouldn't be yours to take. Skilled fighters can do this fast and proper.

If you're right then nothing much will change in terms of outcomes if downed state is removed right?

If i'm right, downstate should not affect fights at all. If it were removed, it'd favor the blob more.

Here's an example,

[Sovereign.1093]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said::/ downstate rally has been nerfed so much since the old days.

soon ppl be asking, auto siege, and auto commanders, even auto pugs.

@.@Or even more horrible stuff like auto scouting, passive stat buffs and waypoints anywhere.

we have auto scouting - the sentries.

passive stat buffs - well, guild buffs.

ways points everywhere - none this yet. unless one team takes everything heheeh.

on second thought, all of those here now o.o

[Caedmon.6798]

@Sovereign.1093 said:l2play issue. Focus downs, no problem. If you can't kill them fast enough, they shouldn't be yours to take. Skilled fighters can do this fast and proper.

I think you're missing the point here.Besides this thread not being about blobbing At all.Its about the Inability to cleave enough Or finish fast enough where theres people ressing and still people around damaging you aswell where in many cases utilities have already been spent.Or in many cases you have to wait with using a utility just for that downed guy,where ressing in most cases is even faster.This is not about some 2on2 fight but more so about 2v5+,this is also no l2p issue since i know safe stomping and i know how to poison bomb or cleave.Its the Inability to do so ( I think you can think of reasons because i wont post them all here ) and most people running with mercy runes or even 80% hp while dowed food.Where theres multiple people going down ( Im not saying this is Always an issue,but its an annoying issue that happens far too often ) several times but they keep getting rezzed by some fb that is faster than your finish animation,then theres something wrong,especially since people can go down 4x in one minute.

Besides as my thread title suggests i do not ask for a complete removal,i'm asking for a well deserved nerf to this carrying mechanic.

[Sovereign.1093]

how would u nerf it? ban mercy rune?

normally those are run in gvgs only.

[Caedmon.6798]

@"Sovereign.1093" said:how would u nerf it? ban mercy rune?

normally those are run in gvgs only.

Did you read my original post or.... ?

Lemme quote it just for you !

"".By reducing the res speed and making it so people can go down once but the 2nd time theyre dead."

[Israel.7056]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:l2play issue. Focus downs, no problem. If you can't kill them fast enough, they shouldn't be yours to take. Skilled fighters can do this fast and proper.

If you're right then nothing much will change in terms of outcomes if downed state is removed right?

If i'm right, downstate should not affect fights at all. If it were removed, it'd favor the blob more.

Here's an example,

Well then we have something approaching a testable hypothesis as I believe essentially the opposite will be observed.