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Fundamentally altering professions every few months

Einsof.1457

By Einsof.1457
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

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@yann.1946 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

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ProtoGunner.4953

ProtoGunner.4953

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Stop complaining about changes. Just play the fucking game, really, I can't stand these constant complaining and lamenting every single day here. It's unreal, holy shit guys, get a fucking grip and just play. If I wouldn't browse through the forums now and then I wouldn't notice it. I just play the game, I have fun, I don't give a shit if some profession is 'bad' or whatever.

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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

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@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:Stop complaining about changes. Just play the kitten game, really, I can't stand these constant complaining and lamenting every single day here. It's unreal, holy kitten guys, get a kitten grip and just play. If I wouldn't browse through the forums now and then I wouldn't notice it. I just play the game, I have fun, I don't give a kitten if some profession is 'bad' or whatever.

Ok active let ppl play the game regardless of there class. If some one wants to play as any class any build in content you want to do do not go after them for that build or class help them get into your group even if its going to mess up the raid fight etc.. That is only way only not letting ppl talk about the balance patch will work.

Also some how get every one else in the game to do the same thing. The just play the game "just win forehead" or how ever the meme goes dose not work when you simply cant play the game content because your not playing the right class.

That is what GW2 become if your not playing the right class your not allowed to play with others.

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yann.1946

yann.1946

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Thats fair and i don't play WvW enough to speak about its meta.I have still have faith because they did post their intent this time (even for future plas not only for this balance patch).

(weren't their scourge nerfs btw or am i misreading the patch notes?)

Edit: and while the op might not have complained if it worked out his complained atm is still just that the balance patch happened not what it did)

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

Then they need to give us defined paths for the classes. I have no ideal what tempest is for any more nor do i know what scraper is for. We need a new mission statement on each core class and elite spec. as the old ones from when they first came out seem out dated.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

Then they need to give us defined paths for the classes. I have no ideal what tempest is for any more nor do i know what scraper is for. We need a new mission statement on each core class and elite spec. as the old ones from when they first came out seem out dated.

Well hold on ... it would be NICE for that to happen but they don't NEED to do it. I think your perception of what a X class is 'for' is the wrong question to ask. Unlike other MMO's, a class isn't 'for' anything here. You are free to decide what it's 'for', depending on what you want to do. There was never any notion of what something is 'for' or the purpose of any class in this game ever because that's not how the game was conceived in the first place. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to attach a 'what for' to any class in this game; the answer depends on the individual player.

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jbrother.1340

jbrother.1340

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@"Einsof.1457" said:Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks.

Are you seriously heartbroken over this?

Most people reserve that level of emotion for dead loved ones and their pet that got crushed by a truck.

Why does dealing with change come so hard to humans? Learn not to hate and maybe this won't feel the same after possibly.

You are using a strong word in using "hate" and if you truly hate why do you keep coming back for more?

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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

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@jbrother.1340 said:

@"Einsof.1457" said:Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks.

Are you seriously heartbroken over this?

Most people reserve that level of emotion for dead loved ones and their pet that got crushed by a truck.

Why does dealing with change come so hard to humans? Learn not to hate and maybe this won't feel the same after possibly.

You are using a strong word in using "hate" and if you truly hate why do you keep coming back for more?

To feel is to be human to feel nothing is not to be human putting 5 years of your life is a big investment and its meaningful what happens. Not every one can make an alt to play class of the month ppl have real ties to there hero and that hero is locked into a class. My alts are more or less mules that i have no real attachment to. The hero i want to play has a lot tide to it but its an ele so rip lol. I even have items i held on to because they have meaning in game. I still have my pic of a drawing from way back that most ate for karma. All from that ele hero i cant play any more and still be of use to others at the same level as other classes.

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

Then they need to give us defined paths for the classes. I have no ideal what tempest is for any more nor do i know what scraper is for. We need a new mission statement on each core class and elite spec. as the old ones from when they first came out seem out dated.

Well hold on ... it would be NICE for that to happen but they don't NEED to do it. I think your perception of what a X class is 'for' is the wrong question to ask. Unlike other MMO's, a class isn't 'for' anything here. You are free to decide what it's 'for', depending on what you want to do. There was never any notion of what something is 'for' or the purpose of any class in this game ever because that's not how the game was conceived in the first place. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to attach a 'what for' to any class in this game; the answer depends on the individual player.

This is only valid until you step into the realm of fractals and raids where certain classes perform certain roles and developer balance defines what you can or can't do.

Having ones class change multiple times (see chrono over the last year as best example) and get reworked constantly does not require a developer explanation, true. But it also does not require players to stick with the game and accept such class changes over and over, especially when the class changes dramatically from what it used to be (and how it used to play). If a player finds a different class to play, great. If they leave though, that's bad and at some point understandable.

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jbrother.1340

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@Jski.6180 said:

@"Einsof.1457" said:Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks.

Are you seriously heartbroken over this?

Most people reserve that level of emotion for dead loved ones and their pet that got crushed by a truck.

Why does dealing with change come so hard to humans? Learn not to hate and maybe this won't feel the same after possibly.

You are using a strong word in using "hate" and if you truly hate why do you keep coming back for more?

To feel is to be human to feel nothing is not to be human putting 5 years of your life is a big investment and its meaningful what happens. Not every one can make an alt to play class of the month ppl have real ties to there hero and that hero is locked into a class. My alts are more or less mules that i have no real attachment to. The hero i want to play has a lot tide to it but its an ele so rip lol. I even have items i held on to because they have meaning in game. I still have my pic of a drawing from way back that most ate for karma. All from that ele hero i cant play any more and still be of use to others at the same level as other classes.

You have not made an investment here. You cannot gain anything but enjoyment and feel free to argue the semantics of it but this is simply use of your time for entertainment. If you play this like an investment banker buys and sells stocks you are not going to be healthy and will probably feel like crap in the long run because you cannot actually gain anything here other than pleasure.

Feeling nothing is not what I am talking about. Learning to master your emotions is. Hate should not be part of the equation pretty much ever. It burns hot and bright and incinerates and destroys everything it touches.

Now if you had said the building burned down that you volunteer at for the last five years to feed and cloth the needed and helpless I can get behind your emotion and even understand it, but to apply that same think to a game something in this case that is made only of light and sound something that is wildly at your and for your leisure I cannot.

You don't have to accept that and I don't expect you to but with a world on fire around you and people dying all over of thing they should not be while wonderful games and art like this exist I really have a hard time accepting how you are using your emotion or rather your lack of emotional control.

I dislike when the class I like best or the build I like best becomes altered so much that it feels like a chore to start at step one again and then I either make the choice to go on and keep working it until I understand again (I really don't care if I do understand as I will never be a top tier player) or I don't. I try and not let things like this that are so inconsequential to survival and the forward momentum of our race bother me.

I am trying to understand why I disagree with you in reality because I learn more in those occasions than I ever will only communicating with those that think just like I do.

Why do you put so much stock in something that doesn't in the end even belong to you? Do you balance the time you spend here helping others as well, if you do does it bring you the same pleasure that this does? If you don't why don't you?

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Obtena.7952

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

Then they need to give us defined paths for the classes. I have no ideal what tempest is for any more nor do i know what scraper is for. We need a new mission statement on each core class and elite spec. as the old ones from when they first came out seem out dated.

Well hold on ... it would be NICE for that to happen but they don't NEED to do it. I think your perception of what a X class is 'for' is the wrong question to ask. Unlike other MMO's, a class isn't 'for' anything here. You are free to decide what it's 'for', depending on what you want to do. There was never any notion of what something is 'for' or the purpose of any class in this game ever because that's not how the game was conceived in the first place. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to attach a 'what for' to any class in this game; the answer depends on the individual player.

This is only valid until you step into the realm of fractals and raids where certain classes perform certain roles and developer balance defines what you can or can't do.

Having ones class change multiple times (see chrono over the last year as best example) and get reworked constantly does not require a developer explanation, true. But it also does not require players to stick with the game and accept such class changes over and over, especially when the class changes dramatically from what it used to be (and how it used to play). If a player finds a different class to play, great. If they leave though, that's bad and at some point understandable.

That doesn't really stick. That classes that perform certain tasks still do those things, EVEN if we aren't told what the class is 'for' by Anet. It's simply a matter of players determining what they like to play and what's effective. No defined path from Anet is necessary for that to happen. This is why it's completely wrong to use meta as a reference to balance; the optimal path is defined by players based on what works best, not defined by Anet because they have hardcoded what classes are for.

Think of this way; Anet created Druid and gave it some great healing capability, likely knowing it would be a spec favourited by players for healing. What Anet didn't do was say "Druid is THE healing class, so you should play Druid if you want the best healing in the game". Those are very different things. The reason the whole 'not defined' class roles thing works for Anet is because 1) there are multiple classes that fill the same role and 2) the threshold for success is not high enough to need to rely on the most optimal comps/builds to win.

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

Then they need to give us defined paths for the classes. I have no ideal what tempest is for any more nor do i know what scraper is for. We need a new mission statement on each core class and elite spec. as the old ones from when they first came out seem out dated.

Well hold on ... it would be NICE for that to happen but they don't NEED to do it. I think your perception of what a X class is 'for' is the wrong question to ask. Unlike other MMO's, a class isn't 'for' anything here. You are free to decide what it's 'for', depending on what you want to do. There was never any notion of what something is 'for' or the purpose of any class in this game ever because that's not how the game was conceived in the first place. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to attach a 'what for' to any class in this game; the answer depends on the individual player.

This is only valid until you step into the realm of fractals and raids where certain classes perform certain roles and developer balance defines what you can or can't do.

Having ones class change multiple times (see chrono over the last year as best example) and get reworked constantly does not require a developer explanation, true. But it also does not require players to stick with the game and accept such class changes over and over, especially when the class changes dramatically from what it used to be (and how it used to play). If a player finds a different class to play, great. If they leave though, that's bad and at some point understandable.

That doesn't really stick. That classes that perform certain tasks still do those things, EVEN if we aren't told what the class is 'for' by Anet. It's simply a matter of players determining what they like to play and what's effective. No defined path from Anet is necessary for that to happen. This is why it's completely wrong to use meta as a reference to balance; the optimal path is defined by players based on what works best, not defined by Anet because they have hardcoded what classes are for.

That's semantics at best.

Arenanet hard-codes what classes can do. Players use what they are given by the developer to find personal ideal combinations based on different factors.

Changing classes and what they can do over and over, will cause disruptions. The developers do not have to say anything, but let's not pretend like a class can suddenly give x amount of boons when they have no access to these boons.

Same goes for classes that can not hit target marks for certain boons. Having access to 3-5 stacks of might is nice, but will hardly compete with a class which can put out 25 stacks of might AND share this with 4 other people.

Raid encounters have added a soft trinity and even if 95% of the game does not require any type of specific class performance, to argue that any class can perform anything is ignorant in the face of the fact that raids by design need them to.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

Then they need to give us defined paths for the classes. I have no ideal what tempest is for any more nor do i know what scraper is for. We need a new mission statement on each core class and elite spec. as the old ones from when they first came out seem out dated.

Well hold on ... it would be NICE for that to happen but they don't NEED to do it. I think your perception of what a X class is 'for' is the wrong question to ask. Unlike other MMO's, a class isn't 'for' anything here. You are free to decide what it's 'for', depending on what you want to do. There was never any notion of what something is 'for' or the purpose of any class in this game ever because that's not how the game was conceived in the first place. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to attach a 'what for' to any class in this game; the answer depends on the individual player.

This is only valid until you step into the realm of fractals and raids where certain classes perform certain roles and developer balance defines what you can or can't do.

Having ones class change multiple times (see chrono over the last year as best example) and get reworked constantly does not require a developer explanation, true. But it also does not require players to stick with the game and accept such class changes over and over, especially when the class changes dramatically from what it used to be (and how it used to play). If a player finds a different class to play, great. If they leave though, that's bad and at some point understandable.

That doesn't really stick. That classes that perform certain tasks still do those things, EVEN if we aren't told what the class is 'for' by Anet. It's simply a matter of players determining what they like to play and what's effective. No defined path from Anet is necessary for that to happen. This is why it's completely wrong to use meta as a reference to balance; the optimal path is defined by players based on what works best, not defined by Anet because they have hardcoded what classes are for.

That's semantics at best.

Arenanet hard-codes what classes can do. Players use what they are given by the developer to find personal ideal combinations based on different factors.

Changing classes and what they can do over and over, will cause disruptions. The developers do not have to say anything, but let's not pretend like a class can suddenly give x amount of boons when they have no access to these boons.

Same goes for classes that can not hit target marks for certain boons. Having access to 3-5 stacks of might is nice, but will hardly compete with a class which can put out 25 stacks of might AND share this with 4 other people.

Raid encounters have added a soft trinity and even if 95% of the game does not require any type of specific class performance, to argue that any class can perform anything is ignorant in the face of the fact that raids by design need them to.

No it's really not and appealing to a sematics argument to dismiss the reality of the game isn't going to get you very far. The fact is that nothing that happened in this last patch was so fundamentally changing the role for Mesmer that it affected in any significant way how you play it or how players team with it. We lost boonsharing and nothing picked it up so the bottom line is that little actually changes other than OTHER classes having to pick up some boon generation slack ... that they always had to do to begin with.

You know what is most interesting ... the only people that are the MOST negatively affected by any game changes are always the meta pushing players. Think about why that is.

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Jski.6180

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@jbrother.1340 said:

@"Einsof.1457" said:Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks.

Are you seriously heartbroken over this?

Most people reserve that level of emotion for dead loved ones and their pet that got crushed by a truck.

Why does dealing with change come so hard to humans? Learn not to hate and maybe this won't feel the same after possibly.

You are using a strong word in using "hate" and if you truly hate why do you keep coming back for more?

To feel is to be human to feel nothing is not to be human putting 5 years of your life is a big investment and its meaningful what happens. Not every one can make an alt to play class of the month ppl have real ties to there hero and that hero is locked into a class. My alts are more or less mules that i have no real attachment to. The hero i want to play has a lot tide to it but its an ele so rip lol. I even have items i held on to because they have meaning in game. I still have my pic of a drawing from way back that most ate for karma. All from that ele hero i cant play any more and still be of use to others at the same level as other classes.

You have not made an investment here. You cannot gain anything but enjoyment and feel free to argue the semantics of it but this is simply use of your time for entertainment. If you play this like an investment banker buys and sells stocks you are not going to be healthy and will probably feel like kitten in the long run because you cannot actually gain anything here other than pleasure.

Feeling nothing is not what I am talking about. Learning to master your emotions is. Hate should not be part of the equation pretty much ever. It burns hot and bright and incinerates and destroys everything it touches.

Now if you had said the building burned down that you volunteer at for the last five years to feed and cloth the needed and helpless I can get behind your emotion and even understand it, but to apply that same think to a game something in this case that is made only of light and sound something that is wildly at your and for your leisure I cannot.

You don't have to accept that and I don't expect you to but with a world on fire around you and people dying all over of thing they should not be while wonderful games and art like this exist I really have a hard time accepting how you are using your emotion or rather your lack of emotional control.

I dislike when the class I like best or the build I like best becomes altered so much that it feels like a chore to start at step one again and then I either make the choice to go on and keep working it until I understand again (I really don't care if I do understand as I will never be a top tier player) or I don't. I try and not let things like this that are so inconsequential to survival and the forward momentum of our race bother me.

I am trying to understand why I disagree with you in reality because I learn more in those occasions than I ever will only communicating with those that think just like I do.

Why do you put so much stock in something that doesn't in the end even belong to you? Do you balance the time you spend here helping others as well, if you do does it bring you the same pleasure that this does? If you don't why don't you?

You here to stores knowing they are not yours and you get invested into though stores. Just because its something you can't own dose not make it any less part of you.

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Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

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@"Einsof.1457" said:Arena Net, you made a great game. Really. All the pieces are there, yet it seems the only enemy you have is yourself. You aren't just tweaking professions every few months, you are fundamentally altering them every few months. It is very jarring to log in, and have such glaringly extreme changes to your profession that you are unable to get back into doing content in raids and fractals until you pour through the math and test what works. I don't know if this is supposed to be the design, but I hate it. Tweaks here and there to duration etc. is fine and expected for an MMO, but massive overhauls every 3-6 months need to stop. If these changes are really truly necessary then the design was awful to begin with, which really is not only disappointing but embarrassing for you. Please either stop this madness, or save these overhauls for huge events like expansion releases. I can't take the heartbreak anymore to log in and have no idea how to play anymore for the 4th time this year. It really really sucks.

Games evolve and things change. Professions and combat mechanics needed love from long ago, and the only things that "really sucks" were stagnation and players not seeing things improve or get fixed.

Edit- And FINALLY, after 6 long years, the Systems Team was made to tackle things and improve the game, and all they get is QQ... I'm sorry, but the old designs left a lot to be desired and there were reoccurring issues year after year that were never addressed... Shaking things up is exactly whet this game needed.

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Edit: and don't you think it would be better to state the good things also?

Oh I have, I even have looked into the possible new meta of 8 chrono+ 1 druid + 1 warrior (which works for permanent boons funny enough).

I'm not talking about chrono only, I'm talking about the across the board changes to many classes. There is 3 classes basically which were not severely changed (elementalist, necromancer and engineer). Firebrand was semi-buffed.

The rest were simply gutted and/or massively changed with chrono/mirage taking ONLY adjustments down. Not a single buff or positive change.

For what? A not done patch and balance change.

That is from a pure pve perspective. FB and Scourge reign supreme in WvW and are even more powerful now. Calling that balance is an insult to any persons intelligence, complaining about other people being unhappy is even a step further.

Complaining about balance changes happening is what people are complaining about. It has nothing to do with the end result. You might disagree with the end result and that's fine. But complaining that people are trying to make the game balanced is absolute folly.

Yes scourge and fb being op in wvw is Not OK but should that be given as a reason why balance changes shouldn't happen?

So you think what was updated has nothing to do with what ppl are complaining about only the fact that the dev. did something? That seems far fetch.

Balance patch would be to make other classes on par with FB and scorge in wvw a balance patch that dose not changes any thing is not realty much of a BALANCE patch.

If you read the op he mentions specifically being unhappy with the fact that big balance changes happen. > @Jski.6180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Everyone wants 'balance' ... no one wants to pay the price to get it.

So the game now is balanced?

For your statement to be applicable, balance would have to have been achieved. Not sure I would pull on that thread when there is a official post about future balance changes coming (which by the very nature of such post indicates that balance is not yet achieved).

The post doesn't apply that balance has been achieved tho. He's merely stating that while people are asking for a balanced game, no one wants to walk the road to it.

and I'm arguing that if balance had actually been achieved people would be less critical while this current state of unbalance is a major reason as to why there is so much criticism.

If the changes to the meta had resulted in viable and enjoyable alternatives instead of just leaving everything in shambles or disorganized we would not be having many of these conversations. As such criticizing people for being unhappy with the current state based on theoretical future balance is unfair.

That would be a fair point if people had taken the time to play and test the alternatives etc.

When the balance patch came out everyone was talking about how chrono was dead. While now people are playtesting and noticing it isn't dead.

Overreaction is such a widespread phenomena its getting ridiculous.

Its not a phenomena if its widespread..... its a consequence to a very bad balance patch. We still live in a cause effect world and trying to rebrand it as a small yet widespread thing is kind of pointless.

It happens every balance patch so I wouldn't say its a consequence of a bad balance patch.

Maybe I choose my terminology wrong but what I meant to convey that a lot of people from the forum community are always saying their class is dead after a balance patch just because something got nerfed.

For example the amount of people being pissed of because they just geared a Chrono and believing it's dead. But if they have never played it in a specific setting how would they be certain it's dead?

Its far more then just chrono far more then just one class at every level its a bad balancing chose you have out right dev. going back on there own ideal one patch ago effects that where fine to start with and now are comply gone. This is cutting out a lot of what made GW2 the game it is and the best thing give to use as a player base is a talk of how things are going to get worst.

There only 5 or so classes alive and that including elite spec as there own class vs cores. This update dropped the number by one more down to 3.

Class death is group chose in pve and pvp. If your not the right class you dont get to play GW2. Even the miss match groups are not going to work because the 3 classes are so much stronger and have soo much more then every thing else in the game content is balanced base off of thoughts 3 classes.

Then please tell me which classes are alive. As I see it in raid pve we have

RenegadeHolosmithDruidMirageWarrior (all three variants)Thief both deadeye and daredevil

Now either chrono or fb the debate is still open on those I guess.

Personally I believe dh, scourge and weaver are fine but I can stand corrected on those

I know next to nothing about raid pve and could care less about it as most of the player base and most of the nerf did not effect raids as must as the chorn nerf.

Keep in mind this is the General Guild Wars 2 discussion not pve only.

Any way there was not one class untouched by this update and all classes where made much weaker by it. So only the strongest classes that where already over used in there game types are still being over used in there game types.

So your not most GW2 players and i can see why you feel the way you do because of this.

I know I'm not the general player, neither are you tho so I don't see how that's relevant.

And to summarize why I entered this discussion I merely pointed out the cyn that her/his response to a poster was innapropriate because they did not talk about a balance being achieved but that people want it but not walk the path.

I get that but that more gets back to anet not keeping on a path and given up mid way. In a way it becomes less of a balance patch and more of a just do things patch. If the out come is worst then before there is good reason to dislike the devs. doing things. But the not liking what happen is not about the devs. trying to update things but because they are comply redoing things as if they are hitting rest over and over.

I image the op would be ok if it worked out i think every one would be (maybe not the scorge players but that because its a painfully boring class that ppl only play because its is op and required).

But it did not work out it made things worst and it sounds like in this anet reset things are going to get a lot worst until the next reset mid way when they realize things are going bad and then they are off to the next ideal.

When you remove a roll from a class your not balancing that class your simply taking about content from the game. When you add a roll to a class your adding content. This last update removed far more then adding.At least that what i think the over all feeling is after this "balance" patch.

Here is the problem. Anet can't 'balance' what needs to be done in JUST one patch. So when people complain that a patch destroyed their class or their builds, they aren't thinking about the future and they certainly aren't acknowledging a fundamental fact that MMO's change regularly. What I said is true. Everyone wants balance, but no one is willing to pay for it. That means paying in all kinds of different ways, including paying in patience for the next patch, and the one after it, and so on. Everyone just wants balance, wants it now, and wants it to not affect anything they do in a negative way. How unreasonable is that.

You have NO idea what the path is ... so how can you sit there and say that Anet aren't staying on the path and giving up half way? You got no idea. You're just saying things to make Anet appear like they are just ruin everything for everyone. It's and unfair and immature approach. Here is some reality for you; if you don't like playing or can't handle games that change on you, don't play MMO's, PERIOD.

Then they need to give us defined paths for the classes. I have no ideal what tempest is for any more nor do i know what scraper is for. We need a new mission statement on each core class and elite spec. as the old ones from when they first came out seem out dated.

Well hold on ... it would be NICE for that to happen but they don't NEED to do it. I think your perception of what a X class is 'for' is the wrong question to ask. Unlike other MMO's, a class isn't 'for' anything here. You are free to decide what it's 'for', depending on what you want to do. There was never any notion of what something is 'for' or the purpose of any class in this game ever because that's not how the game was conceived in the first place. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to attach a 'what for' to any class in this game; the answer depends on the individual player.

This is only valid until you step into the realm of fractals and raids where certain classes perform certain roles and developer balance defines what you can or can't do.

Having ones class change multiple times (see chrono over the last year as best example) and get reworked constantly does not require a developer explanation, true. But it also does not require players to stick with the game and accept such class changes over and over, especially when the class changes dramatically from what it used to be (and how it used to play). If a player finds a different class to play, great. If they leave though, that's bad and at some point understandable.

That doesn't really stick. That classes that perform certain tasks still do those things, EVEN if we aren't told what the class is 'for' by Anet. It's simply a matter of players determining what they like to play and what's effective. No defined path from Anet is necessary for that to happen. This is why it's completely wrong to use meta as a reference to balance; the optimal path is defined by players based on what works best, not defined by Anet because they have hardcoded what classes are for.

That's semantics at best.

Arenanet hard-codes what classes can do. Players use what they are given by the developer to find personal ideal combinations based on different factors.

Changing classes and what they can do over and over, will cause disruptions. The developers do not have to say anything, but let's not pretend like a class can suddenly give x amount of boons when they have no access to these boons.

Same goes for classes that can not hit target marks for certain boons. Having access to 3-5 stacks of might is nice, but will hardly compete with a class which can put out 25 stacks of might AND share this with 4 other people.

Raid encounters have added a soft trinity and even if 95% of the game does not require any type of specific class performance, to argue that any class can perform anything is ignorant in the face of the fact that raids by design need them to.

No it's really not and appealing to a sematics argument to dismiss the reality of the game isn't going to get you very far. The fact is that nothing that happened in this last patch was so fundamentally changing the role for Mesmer that it affected in any significant way how you play it or how players team with it. We lost boonsharing and nothing picked it up so the bottom line is that little actually changes other than OTHER classes having to pick up some boon generation slack ... that they always had to do to begin with.

Ahm no. Let me explain since you seem not to play mesmer or have not played mesmer in a while.

What changed was:

  • boon up-time for quickness and alacrity is not permanent any more, even less so than before
  • wells are required now which puts significant pressure on team stacking, a lot more than before and is nearly un-doable on certain encounters
  • SoI is now more useful on damage dealers than support or tank chronos. This goes so far that new meta groups might be running multiple chronos or mirages instead of support/tank chronos
  • we lost boon sharing from chaos. Funny enough this is what people are focusing on but in essence this is of the least consequence of all the changes
  • mesmer cc was nerfed hard bringing the utility in this area way down

So let's not pretend like nothing changed. The class at its core was changed so much that certain aspects of its identity were completely altered.

Also this role argument is valid for all classes, not only chrono. There is healers and classes who even if they wanted to could not heal worth squat. There is damage dealers and classes who will not reach peack performance in this area (even if this one is the most lax since damage in general is not required in high amounts for success), there are certain special roles which lend themselves to certain classes way better (hand kiter at deimos, orbs at KC, etc.).

EDIT:

@Obtena.7952 said:You know what is most interesting ... the only people that are the MOST negatively affected by any game changes are always the meta pushing players. Think about why that is.

Making up generalizations and nonsense like this do not make your point in any way more valid or supportive. The people I noticed most annoyed by this were new players who invested a lot of gold and money into their mesmer to have easier access to raids and be useful. My statement is about as valid as yours (coming from subjective experience) and just as useful, that is not at all.

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Obtena.7952

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You know, I can only sit here and think that if players can't adjust to game changes, no matter how big or small, they just shouldn't be playing MMOs. Being new or spending gold on 'wasted' gear isn't a reason to complain about changes. People that play to prescribed builds because of what is best SHOULD have the expectation that those builds can be affected by game change. That's a non-reason to complain. For sure things changed ... except the fact that everyone and their dog still want you to play your mesmers in fractals/raids. In the grand scheme of things, the class is just as desirable as it ever was. If players can't adapt, MMO's are NOT the game for them.

There is nothing nonsense about the fact that the most affected players are the ones that aren't inline with the philosophy of the game; meta pushers are in that group. If you can't make that connection, it's because you don't want to see it.

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Cyninja.2954

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@Obtena.7952 said:You know, I can only sit here and think that if players can't adjust to game changes, no matter how big or small, they just shouldn't be playing MMOs. Being new or spending gold on 'wasted' gear isn't a reason to complain about changes. People that play to prescribed builds because of what is best SHOULD have the expectation that those builds can be affected by game change. That's a non-reason to complain. For sure things changed ... except the fact that everyone and their dog still want you to play your mesmers in fractals/raids. In the grand scheme of things, the class is just as desirable as it ever was. If players can't adapt, MMO's are NOT the game for them.

That is a completely different argument. Suffice to say, you don't get to decide what others get to complain about.

@Obtena.7952 said:There is nothing nonsense about the fact that the most affected players are the ones that aren't inline with the philosophy of the game; meta pushers are in that group. If you can't make that connection, it's because you don't want to see it.

I'm not the type of person who goes out and makes wild assumptions about other players or the player base or a fraction of the player base.

If you want to do so, fine by me. It tells more about you then about the players you are criticizing though.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:You know, I can only sit here and think that if players can't adjust to game changes, no matter how big or small, they just shouldn't be playing MMOs. Being new or spending gold on 'wasted' gear isn't a reason to complain about changes. People that play to prescribed builds because of what is best SHOULD have the expectation that those builds can be affected by game change. That's a non-reason to complain. For sure things changed ... except the fact that everyone and their dog still want you to play your mesmers in fractals/raids. In the grand scheme of things, the class is just as desirable as it ever was. If players can't adapt, MMO's are NOT the game for them.

That is a completely different argument. Suffice to say, you don't get to decide what others get to complain about.

@Obtena.7952 said:There is nothing nonsense about the fact that the most affected players are the ones that aren't inline with the philosophy of the game; meta pushers are in that group. If you can't make that connection, it's because you don't want to see it.

I'm not the type of person who goes out and makes wild assumptions about other players or the player base or a fraction of the player base.

If you want to do so, fine by me. It tells more about you then about the players you are criticizing though.

You're right, I don't get to decide, but I have no problem taking them to task on it when arguments like "Oh no fair, I'm new" or "OH dang, I spent gold" are being thrown about as reasons for Anet to not do changes; that is just truly ridiculous and nonsense.

I would see the problem if all the sudden, you couldn't tank with a Chrono, like, at all. That would for sure be a pretty drastic and likely unnecessary change that fundamentally change the flavour of why people choose and invest time in the class. That's not even close to what's happened here.

You were agreeing with the assertion we NEED Anet to give us defined path for their classes/specs. It's just not needed UNLESS they WERE fundamentally changing the flavour of the classes like in the situation I presented above. That's never happened in this game.

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IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

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I find it interesting when some posters say that other posters should not complain about profession changes. After all, one big reason the profession changes came about is because still other posters complained that "profession X" is OP/too good. For instance, I've seen a lot of complaints about Chronos being locked into a raid tank/support role by posters who wanted to use a different profession for that role. Surely, it's not a coincidence or accident that Chronos' ability to fill that role has been lessened -- unless you believe that the devs never look at forum posts.

That's not to say that changes will not be beneficial for the game in the long run. Jury's still out on that. However, to dismiss complaints because posters shouldn't complain is not helpful.

I also wonder how ANet feels about posters telling others -- their customers -- to go elsewhere. That's definitely not helpful.

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ButcherofMalakir.4067

ButcherofMalakir.4067

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Sometimes a tweak is the right response. Sometimes overhauling is. It really depends on the issue that ANet is trying to address.

I have no oriblems with overhauls. I just wish that anet will test those overhauls so after them they will not make another for the same class in at least 6 months.

Its fine to change gear every fewonths but 2 weeks is probably new record. Dont understand why they couldnt relese this changes with runes.

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