pls give ventari a stun break

[Dace.8173]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Temper.2190 said:Yeah, no kidding. You have to legend swap to break stun when pressured, which takes you out of Ventari, so you can't heal.

That's likely the point, to keep people Legend swapping as opposed to simply camping into a single Legend. Revenant doesn't have that many stun breaks, to begin with (5 total), and I imagine the goal was to give the offensive Legends a minor support aspect as opposed to stacking it all into one Legend.

But every legend has a stun break except for the ventari. But then again i dont want heal rev to become a thing so i say nerf it into the ground.

Pretty sure Glint don't have a stun breaker either.

Uh yes it does.

Wait, Gaze of Darkness always been a stunbreaker? Because I swear I never saw a rev break out of stun while on glint except by swapping back to shiro.

It is typically faster to Legend swap with Glint than it is to use Gaze of Darkness. Gaze is a two-step process, you first have to already be using Facet of Darkness in order to use Gaze. So if you're not already doing that then you Legend swap to break the stun instead of activating one power and then the other.

[Milan.9035]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Temper.2190 said:Yeah, no kidding. You have to legend swap to break stun when pressured, which takes you out of Ventari, so you can't heal.

That's likely the point, to keep people Legend swapping as opposed to simply camping into a single Legend. Revenant doesn't have that many stun breaks, to begin with (5 total), and I imagine the goal was to give the offensive Legends a minor support aspect as opposed to stacking it all into one Legend.

But every legend has a stun break except for the ventari. But then again i dont want heal rev to become a thing so i say nerf it into the ground.

Pretty sure Glint don't have a stun breaker either.

Uh yes it does.

Wait, Gaze of Darkness always been a stunbreaker? Because I swear I never saw a rev break out of stun while on glint except by swapping back to shiro.

It is typically faster to Legend swap with Glint than it is to use Gaze of Darkness. Gaze is a two-step process, you first have to already be using Facet of Darkness in order to use Gaze. So if you're not already doing that then you Legend swap to break the stun instead of activating one power and then the other.

Isnt all that instant cast? Its just double tap...

[Jeknar.6184]

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Temper.2190 said:Yeah, no kidding. You have to legend swap to break stun when pressured, which takes you out of Ventari, so you can't heal.

That's likely the point, to keep people Legend swapping as opposed to simply camping into a single Legend. Revenant doesn't have that many stun breaks, to begin with (5 total), and I imagine the goal was to give the offensive Legends a minor support aspect as opposed to stacking it all into one Legend.

But every legend has a stun break except for the ventari. But then again i dont want heal rev to become a thing so i say nerf it into the ground.

Pretty sure Glint don't have a stun breaker either.

Uh yes it does.

Wait, Gaze of Darkness always been a stunbreaker? Because I swear I never saw a rev break out of stun while on glint except by swapping back to shiro.

It is typically faster to Legend swap with Glint than it is to use Gaze of Darkness. Gaze is a two-step process, you first have to already be using Facet of Darkness in order to use Gaze. So if you're not already doing that then you Legend swap to break the stun instead of activating one power and then the other.

Isnt all that instant cast? Its just double tap...

You can't activate the facet if you are stunned... The stunbreaker is only on Gaze of Darkness.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Temper.2190 said:Yeah, no kidding. You have to legend swap to break stun when pressured, which takes you out of Ventari, so you can't heal.

That's likely the point, to keep people Legend swapping as opposed to simply camping into a single Legend. Revenant doesn't have that many stun breaks, to begin with (5 total), and I imagine the goal was to give the offensive Legends a minor support aspect as opposed to stacking it all into one Legend.

But every legend has a stun break except for the ventari. But then again i dont want heal rev to become a thing so i say nerf it into the ground.

Pretty sure Glint don't have a stun breaker either.

Uh yes it does.

Wait, Gaze of Darkness always been a stunbreaker? Because I swear I never saw a rev break out of stun while on glint except by swapping back to shiro.

It is typically faster to Legend swap with Glint than it is to use Gaze of Darkness. Gaze is a two-step process, you first have to already be using Facet of Darkness in order to use Gaze. So if you're not already doing that then you Legend swap to break the stun instead of activating one power and then the other.

Isnt all that instant cast? Its just double tap...

You can't activate the facet if you are stunned... The stunbreaker is only on Gaze of Darkness.

You can activate all the facets except for the regen one while stunned because they are instant cast (regen has a .25 sec cast time). True instant cast skills can be used while stunned even if they don't break stunned ie berserker's stance.

[Jeknar.6184]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Temper.2190 said:Yeah, no kidding. You have to legend swap to break stun when pressured, which takes you out of Ventari, so you can't heal.

That's likely the point, to keep people Legend swapping as opposed to simply camping into a single Legend. Revenant doesn't have that many stun breaks, to begin with (5 total), and I imagine the goal was to give the offensive Legends a minor support aspect as opposed to stacking it all into one Legend.

But every legend has a stun break except for the ventari. But then again i dont want heal rev to become a thing so i say nerf it into the ground.

Pretty sure Glint don't have a stun breaker either.

Uh yes it does.

Wait, Gaze of Darkness always been a stunbreaker? Because I swear I never saw a rev break out of stun while on glint except by swapping back to shiro.

It is typically faster to Legend swap with Glint than it is to use Gaze of Darkness. Gaze is a two-step process, you first have to already be using Facet of Darkness in order to use Gaze. So if you're not already doing that then you Legend swap to break the stun instead of activating one power and then the other.

Isnt all that instant cast? Its just double tap...

You can't activate the facet if you are stunned... The stunbreaker is only on Gaze of Darkness.

You can activate all the facets except for the regen one while stunned because they are instant cast (regen has a .25 sec cast time). True instant cast skills can be used while stunned even if they don't break stunned ie berserker's stance.

I guess I'm only showing how much I don't understand revenant...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Dace.8173 said:Sure, but are you willing to pay more for some of Ventari's abilities as that's like what they would do in response?I will pay cash moneyJUST PLISS GIVE ME

[Justine.6351]

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Temper.2190 said:Yeah, no kidding. You have to legend swap to break stun when pressured, which takes you out of Ventari, so you can't heal.

That's likely the point, to keep people Legend swapping as opposed to simply camping into a single Legend. Revenant doesn't have that many stun breaks, to begin with (5 total), and I imagine the goal was to give the offensive Legends a minor support aspect as opposed to stacking it all into one Legend.

But every legend has a stun break except for the ventari. But then again i dont want heal rev to become a thing so i say nerf it into the ground.

Pretty sure Glint don't have a stun breaker either.

Uh yes it does.

Wait, Gaze of Darkness always been a stunbreaker? Because I swear I never saw a rev break out of stun while on glint except by swapping back to shiro.

It is typically faster to Legend swap with Glint than it is to use Gaze of Darkness. Gaze is a two-step process, you first have to already be using Facet of Darkness in order to use Gaze. So if you're not already doing that then you Legend swap to break the stun instead of activating one power and then the other.

Isnt all that instant cast? Its just double tap...

If you are double tapping you are effectively putting a cast time on your stunbreak beyond normal human delayed reaction.

[Dace.8173]

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Milan.9035 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Temper.2190 said:Yeah, no kidding. You have to legend swap to break stun when pressured, which takes you out of Ventari, so you can't heal.

That's likely the point, to keep people Legend swapping as opposed to simply camping into a single Legend. Revenant doesn't have that many stun breaks, to begin with (5 total), and I imagine the goal was to give the offensive Legends a minor support aspect as opposed to stacking it all into one Legend.

But every legend has a stun break except for the ventari. But then again i dont want heal rev to become a thing so i say nerf it into the ground.

Pretty sure Glint don't have a stun breaker either.

Uh yes it does.

Wait, Gaze of Darkness always been a stunbreaker? Because I swear I never saw a rev break out of stun while on glint except by swapping back to shiro.

It is typically faster to Legend swap with Glint than it is to use Gaze of Darkness. Gaze is a two-step process, you first have to already be using Facet of Darkness in order to use Gaze. So if you're not already doing that then you Legend swap to break the stun instead of activating one power and then the other.

Isnt all that instant cast? Its just double tap...

Yeah, it's instant cast. But a single tap of the Legend swap is faster than the double tap of activate and then consume. Being instant cast doesn't remove that Gaze is a two-step process and Legend swap is a one-step process. Most people will opt for the one button click than the two button click.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Dace.8173 said:Sure, but are you willing to pay more for some of Ventari's abilities as that's like what they would do in response?I will pay cash moneyJUST PLISS GIVE ME

I don't think most other Ventari players would want to pay that cost. They have complained in the past about Energy costs as is. Honestly, not having a stunbreak isn't that big of a deal when you consider how low the Energy cost for Ventari is, comparative to the other Legends.

[ethanzephyr.7298]

Most of the time you can save the need for a stunbreak by moving your tablet to you and slapping them with Energy Expulsion. It ends up looking pretty funny as well.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Xaylin.1860 said:Please don't put it on Staff... it already does enough and it wouldn't specifically benefit Ventari.

If people wanted a Stunbreak on Ventari, it gotta be on Purifying Essence or Energy Expulsion. If I had to pick, I'd prefer Energy Expulsion do have some sort of trade-off (re-casting the Tablet). Regardless, both would probably require a longer cooldown (increasing Energy costs would make the Stunbreak too inaccessible on Ventari).

That being said, instead of denying Ventari Revenants a Stunbreak and trying to force them out of the Legend, it would be way more reasonable to sprinkle some Healing into other Legends (Jalis, Glint and Kalla) or at least provide some non-Legendary focussed healing through traits.

No no no. If they put that on the elite, they will nerf Energy Expulsions to the ground and that's my go to heal for support. It would get nerfed like it is in SPvP, pretty much killing ventari in all aspects of gameplay outside of pve, where other Support classes are all around better as is.

[Dace.8173]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:Please don't put it on Staff... it already does enough and it wouldn't specifically benefit Ventari.

If people wanted a Stunbreak on Ventari, it gotta be on Purifying Essence or Energy Expulsion. If I had to pick, I'd prefer Energy Expulsion do have some sort of trade-off (re-casting the Tablet). Regardless, both would probably require a longer cooldown (increasing Energy costs would make the Stunbreak too inaccessible on Ventari).

That being said, instead of denying Ventari Revenants a Stunbreak and trying to force them out of the Legend, it would be way more reasonable to sprinkle some Healing into other Legends (Jalis, Glint and Kalla) or at least provide some non-Legendary focussed healing through traits.

No no no. If they put that on the elite, they will nerf Energy Expulsions to the ground and that's my go to heal for support. It would get nerfed like it is in SPvP, pretty much killing ventari in all aspects of gameplay outside of pve, where other Support classes are all around better as is.

I think if they added it anywhere on Ventari that skill would get nerfed overall and we would have the end result of Ventari being less viable than it already is. I really can't picture a scenario in which they gave Ventari stun break and it didn't become less viable.

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

@Justine.6351 said:I would put it on Purifying Essence.

Would be the best solution. And a good choice IMO.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Put it on Purifying Essence.

• It cleanses condis, which usually correlates on stun break spells

• It's VERY expensive, so you can't spam it.

Also, Ventari as a whole needs a rework. The current set of skills feel very.. limiting?

[Dace.8173]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Put it on Purifying Essence.

• It cleanses condis, which usually correlates on stun break spells

• It's VERY expensive, so you can't spam it.

Also, Ventari as a whole needs a rework. The current set of skills feel very.. limiting?

See, that's the issue the skill would likely become even more expensive. Your best bet is to put it on a cheap skill but most of the cheap ones don't seem to fit having a stun break. I really only see it working as an entire rework in which all the abilities were reworked from the ground up and the increased costs could be worked in better. However, if you simply added the ability I don't see it working out all that well for Ventari players.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Why do they have to increase energy cost?

[Dace.8173]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Why do they have to increase energy cost?

Balance. The cheapest you will find stun break on Revenant is 30 Energy. The most expensive is 40. On Herald there is no Energy cost upfront because it is an upkeep skill. Facet of Darkness does do a -2 Energy drain but you won't feel that so long as you're not using too many abilities. Once you use Gaze of Darkness though it goes on a 15 second CD. Stun break is a strong ability in the game, due to its usefulness in countering several effects at once. It will most certainly cause a rebalancing of any skill it gets added to. It will either raise the Energy cost, raise the CD, or cause one of that powers abilities to be removed or nerfed. Purifying Essence is 25 Energy with a 5 sec CD which places it well outside the normal range for stun breaks cost to a Revenant.

For balance reasons, they are going to want to keep stun break at the same general costs for Revenant (3o). The lack of a stun break has helped to keep Ventari costs low, as evident by how much it actually costs the other Legends. You add stun break and they will rebalance the skill in some fashion. The simplest and most straightforward way is to merely increase the Energy costs. This would keep it on par with other Legends, more so when you consider that even while stunned you can still use your tablet (which in turn means you are still able to perform your basic support functions while stunned), as was pointed out above by other posters.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:Why do they have to increase energy cost?

Balance. The cheapest you will find stun break on Revenant is 30 Energy. The most expensive is 40. On Herald there is no Energy cost upfront because it is an upkeep skill. Facet of Darkness does do a -2 Energy drain but you won't feel that so long as you're not using too many abilities. Once you use Gaze of Darkness though it goes on a 15 second CD. Stun break is a strong ability in the game, due to its usefulness in countering several effects at once. It will most certainly cause a rebalancing of any skill it gets added to. It will either raise the Energy cost, raise the CD, or cause one of that powers abilities to be removed or nerfed. Purifying Essence is 25 Energy with a 5 sec CD which places it well outside the normal range for stun breaks cost to a Revenant.

For balance reasons, they are going to want to keep stun break at the same general costs for Revenant (3o). The lack of a stun break has helped to keep Ventari costs low, as evident by how much it actually costs the other Legends. You add stun break and they will rebalance the skill in some fashion. The simplest and most straightforward way is to merely increase the Energy costs. This would keep it on par with other Legends, more so when you consider that even while stunned you can still use your tablet (which in turn means you are still able to perform your basic support functions while stunned), as was pointed out above by other posters.

I do see your point, but only three of the five stun-breaks cost 30 energy, so it is not necessarily the norm, just a majority. I don't believe the lack of stunbreak is what keeps the energy cost low, I think it is that the heal costs 5 energy every time you use it (which will very likely happen off cooldown), so the lower costs help offset that. 25 energy is only 5 energy less than 30, and it has a cooldown too, which Jalis, Mallyx, and Shiro do not have. I would argue that a stunbreaking skill like Riposting Shadows is more powerful to be able to spam in regards to avoiding and countering CC, even if it costs 5 more energy per use.

I would like to think that I wouldn't be advocating for buffs to certain specs if I did not believe they were warranted. I play Soulbeast and I think they are disgustingly overperforming and need some serious tuning down. However, where is Ventari Rev meta in any PvP or WvW setting? Nowhere except for maybe spamming NH on siege in WvW. Not saying they can't be viable, but a Ventari Rev is hands down the easiest support for me to shut down whenever I am roaming, and while it shouldn't be buffed to the level of Firebrand, giving it a stunbreak would make it a bit less susceptible to being focused down.

[Dace.8173]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I do see your point, but only three of the five stun-breaks cost 30 energy, so it is not necessarily the norm, just a majority. I don't believe the lack of stunbreak is what keeps the energy cost low, I think it is that the heal costs 5 energy every time you use it (which will very likely happen off cooldown), so the lower costs help offset that. 25 energy is only 5 energy less than 30, and it has a cooldown too, which Jalis, Mallyx, and Shiro do not have. I would argue that a stunbreaking skill like Riposting Shadows is more powerful to be able to spam in regards to avoiding and countering CC, even if it costs 5 more energy per use.

No, actually it is the norm. Three out of five is more than half. Three out of five means that 60% of the time stun break will cost you 30 Energy. One of the stun breaks is higher than 30, being 40. The last is an upkeep skill. So in actuality, we can say that 80% of the time you stun break with a Legend you are going to pay at minimum 30 Energy. At 80% we are pretty much at the norm as 100% of the time that the skill in question has an actual Energy cost you pay no less than 30 Energy. That is the norm. The only remaining skill is an upkeep but even then while it doesn't cost Energy it will have a CD. The CD for Gaze of Darkness is ten points higher than Purifying Essence. Therefore the norm established with the other Legends is that stun break either costs you more Energy than a Ventari skill or a higher cooldown than a Ventari skill The norm for Revenant is that the costs to stun break via a Legend are higher than what Ventari asks of the player and as such they would rebalance the skill to bring it in line with the norm of stun break being either higher Energy or higher cool down. It's also worth noting, Gaze of Darkness has a higher cool down than the other Consume skills. As you can see, stun break from a Legend increased the cost. If Ventari had a stun break that skill would have been higher, right off the bat. Since Purifying Essence is not an upkeep skill the real points of comparison are the 4 skills that have an actual Energy cost (for an accurate comparison we would compare Purifying Essence to the skills its similar too and not the ones it is dissimilar from as an upkeep skill has a different set of internal "rules"), bringing us back to whenever stun break cost Energy at 100% of the time it is no less than 30 Energy. When the stun break is placed on an upkeep skill then 100% of the time it has a cooldown of no less than 15 seconds. Those are the norms. No matter how you slice it, Energy or cooldowns, 100% of the time it will cost you more than your standard Ventari skill.

While you can spam Riposting Shadows you are putting yourself into a position wherein that's all you are pretty much going to be able to do. Spamming RS is a good way of finding yourself with zero Energy, fast. Flip side, Ventari could pretty much fire off stun breaks (a CD of 5 really isn't that much) while still maintaining the same level of healing support via the tablet. There isn't a trade-off here like you have with Shiro. If you are using Riposting Shadows you are opting to dodge as opposed to doing something else. Shiro is stun break or continued assault. If it were on Purifying Essence you could stun break AND still make use of your tablet. Ventari would be stun break and tablet pumping heals. Those are the kind of conditions that will prompt a rebalance.

I would like to think that I wouldn't be advocating for buffs to certain specs if I did not believe they were warranted. I play Soulbeast and I think they are disgustingly overperforming and need some serious tuning down. However, where is Ventari Rev meta in any PvP or WvW setting? Nowhere except for maybe spamming NH on siege in WvW. Not saying they can't be viable, but a Ventari Rev is hands down the easiest support for me to shut down whenever I am roaming, and while it shouldn't be buffed to the level of Firebrand, giving it a stunbreak would make it a bit less susceptible to being focused down.

You could feel it's warranted. I'm not making the argument that it isn't warranted. I'm pointing out that such a change will increase costs to Ventari somewhere. It very well could be warranted, but you wouldn't get it for free. Balance isn't necessarily about how meta you are. It plays a factor in it but something can both be balanced and meta ( The ideal that every game strives for). It is also possible to be unbalanced and meta (i.e. being OP or broken). It is possible to be unbalanced and non-meta (In this case the profession is not only underperforming in the game but the internal mechanics for the profession are not balanced in regards to each other. This creates situations where some aspects of a profession are must haves because the other mechanics don't really work). It is possible to be balanced and non-meta (in this situation the profession would be internally balanced, i.e. all mechanics for the profession are balanced against each other but the profession itself is not meta). If you made the suggested change to Ventari they would rebalance the skill used in order to bring its cost in line with the rest of the profession. It may not make it meta but it would keep stun break internally consistent within the profession itself. Keeping things internally consistent is how you build a balanced profession. This doesn't always lead to something being meta.

It's worth noting that there is more to balance than whether or not something is meta. Meta is an aspect of game balance but when professions get balanced they are looking at more factors than just "is it meta?" Thus arguing that something can be changed for free because it wouldn't make the profession meta isn't really a solid counter as it ignores the other aspects involved with game balance, such as internal balance and consistency. A prime example of this is how some Elites are too strong but the rest of the profession itself is underpowered. It can be said that Holosmith is meta, but the profession of Engineer is not balanced as Core and Scrapper underperform and are not meta. Balance changes to Engineer would be made with its balance in regards to outside factors, such as being meta or other professions, and internal factors, such as whether or not the various mechanics in Engineer are balanced with one another. It wouldn't just be balanced with whether or not something made it meta.

Stun break clearly has a set level of costs and investment for Revenant. Ventari's current costs and investments place it below the level of investment that skills with stun break require. They would bring a Ventari stun break in line with the costs that other Legends pay. As I said, the removal of stun break helped to keep Ventari's costs lower than the average for Revenant.

Though, honestly, adding a stun break will not really help Ventari all that much in regards to being focused down. Being as how Ventari can still break a stun just by switching Legends Ventari can easily and swiftly break a stun. If a player doesn't want to swap Legends then the fact that you can still make use of your tablet means that even while stunned you are still able to respond. Therefore, if your tablet isn't helping you while you're being focused down then what you really need to do is swap to a Legend that will help you adapt to focused fire, such as swapping to Jalis for a defensive boost, swapping to Glint to make use of some of her upkeeps (such as setting up Infuse Light so that you can turn all that damage into health), or swapping into Shiro so you can either go offensive or make use of Riposting Shadows for a retreat. Stun break isn't what's really wrong in the situation you speak of. Stun break does not really help with being shut down. Ventari support gets easily shut down due to lack of synergy with the other Legends and stun break does not fix that. Ventari is in desperate need of another support Legend.

[Obe.4283]

I manage alright without a stunbreak on Ventari, but i can only say that because Invocation is pretty much mandatory in every build and i abuse the hell out of Empty Vessel.

I don't like the argument that Ventari doesn't need a stunbreak because it can legend swap and break stun through a trait. I have an extreme dislike for that trait, even though it is a major part of Revenant viability. Without that traitline you'd be absolutely screwed if you were hit with a 1-2s hard CC while in centaur stance. Ventari has a lot of nice healing modifiers if running Salvation, but they don't apply to yourself. I'll be generous and say that you could heal yourself for 5-6k on a full healing build by moving tablet and casting Natural Harmony. That's not going to save you the way a stunbreak will, especially against multiple enemies.

I'd be fine with Purifying Essence costing 30E up from 25 if it received a stunbreak personally, the cooldown could even go up to 7. For both roaming and pure group support i rarely ever use that skill. Might as well use 1-2 Natural Harmony's and then Energy Expulsion inside Protective Solace for two cleanses and extra heals while knocking back enemies. Seems like a better use of energy to me at least.

If you compare it after receiving a stunbreak to Riposting Shadows or Pain Absorption those skills would IMO still be superior to a buffed PE for that energy cost. 3 cleanse is nothing these days as well, heck people can weapon swap for that.

RS is already extremely powerful for its cost: Evade (600 distance for escape/repositioning), cleanse chill/cripple/immob, gain 25 endurance (used to be 50), gain fury. I think it's already a miracle that skill ONLY costs 30 energy, there's so many strong effects rolled into that skill it's insane. I won't stop using it when i play Shiro again though. :P

It's not an equal comparison, but just to show how strong it is: Compare RS to daredevil's (The de facto mobility spec) grandmaster trait Unhindered Combatant. (Dodge is now 450 range, gain swiftness, also cleanse chill/cripple/immob, but if you cleanse you lose all your endurance regeneration for 4s.) I can just imagine being a daredevil player and looking at RS thinking: Really? they get that without any drawback to cleansing AND get endurance back instead of losing it?

Mabey i'm just too optimistic and other Ventari users feel differently, but i feel like there is more to potentially gain than to lose here.

[Dace.8173]

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:I manage alright without a stunbreak on Ventari, but i can only say that because Invocation is pretty much mandatory in every build and i abuse the hell out of Empty Vessel.

I don't like the argument that Ventari doesn't need a stunbreak because it can legend swap and break stun through a trait. I have an extreme dislike for that trait, even though it is a major part of Revenant viability.

It doesn't make the argument any less valid though.

Without that traitline you'd be absolutely screwed if you were hit with a 1-2s hard CC while in centaur stance.

Without Energy, you'd be screwed. This really comes down to how much you value a stun break. A lack of stun break hasn't really hurt Ventari. Most of what hurts Ventari is a general lack of synergy with the other Legends.

Ventari has a lot of nice healing modifiers if running Salvation, but they don't apply to yourself. I'll be generous and say that you could heal yourself for 5-6k on a full healing build by moving tablet and casting Natural Harmony. That's not going to save you the way a stunbreak will, especially against multiple enemies.

When dealing with multiple enemies it is also possible that you will get hit by more than one stun effect and thus that single stun break still doesn't help you. It's relatively easy to come up with a situation in which having it can be useful just like I can come up with a situation in which having it doesn't matter, such as you getting hit by more than one stun effect after you've already used your break.

If you compare it after receiving a stunbreak to Riposting Shadows or Pain Absorption those skills would IMO still be superior to a buffed PE for that energy cost. 3 cleanse is nothing these days as well, heck people can weapon swap for that.

Them being superior has no bearing on whether or not Purifying Essence should have it.

RS is already extremely powerful for its cost: Evade (600 distance for escape/repositioning), cleanse chill/cripple/immob, gain 25 endurance (used to be 50), gain fury. I think it's already a miracle that skill ONLY costs 30 energy, there's so many strong effects rolled into that skill it's insane. I won't stop using it when i play Shiro again though. :P

Yeah, but really not relevant. In general, you are going to find that most combat skills are superior to non-combat skills. The game rewards active defense as opposed to passive defense. Riposting Shadows is an active defense. Purifying Essence would be a passive defense.

Mabey i'm just too optimistic and other Ventari users feel differently, but i feel like there is more to potentially gain than to lose here.

There may be more potential to gain. The thing is, no one discusses the downsides. Folks don't bring up the balance issues that may arrise. They don't comment on how such a change might affect the rest of Ventari. I bring these things up not because I'm against it but because mechanic discussions should be a bit more indepth than "I like this trait we should get it!!!!" When you don't discuss the potential downside people tend to get upset when ANet does in fact give folks the changes they want but they also rebalance the mechanics in question. They get upset mostly because they didn't discuss the potential downsides of the request and weigh that against any potential gains. If folks look at all the potential downsides and say they still support the change then at least we've had an actual discussion about the mechanics as opposed to just everyone agreeing that a change should occur.

[Obe.4283]

@"Dace.8173" said:It doesn't make the argument any less valid though.

I get your stance, but by that logic wouldn't it be fair if we get rid of all the other stunbreaks then? We have legend swap stunbreak after all. If you weren't running Invocation, getting CC'd in Ventari would require you to first legend swap and then stunbreak. Depending on your reaction time lets say that's a full 1-2 seconds used. That just seems like very clunky gameplay to me. I would like the class to be less reliant on Invocation/Empty Vessel, but i say this knowing that most classes have a trait line that's semi-mandatory.

Without Energy, you'd be screwed. This really comes down to how much you value a stun break. A lack of stun break hasn't really hurt Ventari. Most of what hurts Ventari is a general lack of synergy with the other Legends.

I think it's both, no energy as well as the lack of a stunbreak will screw you. If i'm CC'd and out of energy on Shiro or Mallyx, i will legend swap as intended with the class. But if my other legend is Ventari, what do i do then? My own experience tells me that healing generally won't keep you alive.

Can you explain this lack of synergy further? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

When dealing with multiple enemies it is also possible that you will get hit by more than one stun effect and thus that single stun break still doesn't help you. It's relatively easy to come up with a situation in which having it can be useful just like I can come up with a situation in which having it doesn't matter, such as you getting hit by more than one stun effect after you've already used your break.

You're right about situations with multiple CC's, i would personally like to have the opportunity to attempt a stunbreak though. Even if i get hit by another one right afterwards i at least have a chance (if my reaction time is good) to prevent it with a dodge or staff block/evade.

Them being superior has no bearing on whether or not Purifying Essence should have it.

Why not though? Their respective legends fulfil different roles of course, but if we are discussing energy costs for a skill before/after potentially getting a stunbreak shouldn't we compare it to the stunbreak skills already in place?

Yeah, but really not relevant. In general, you are going to find that most combat skills are superior to non-combat skills. The game rewards active defense as opposed to passive defense. Riposting Shadows is an active defense. Purifying Essence would be a passive defense.

I don't disagree with the first part, but PE isn't that passive to me. Passive to me would be a skill that regenerates health for you like Healing Signet on warrior, or signets in general. PE actively removes damage on me in most cases. Unless you specifically mean the evade/movement part of RS? Mabey i misunderstood.

There may be more potential to gain. The thing is, no one discusses the downsides. Folks don't bring up the balance issues that may arrise. They don't comment on how such a change might affect the rest of Ventari. I bring these things up not because I'm against it but because mechanic discussions should be a bit more indepth than "I like this trait we should get it!!!!" When you don't discuss the potential downside people tend to get upset when ANet does in fact give folks the changes they want but they also rebalance the mechanics in question. They get upset mostly because they didn't discuss the potential downsides of the request and weigh that against any potential gains. If folks look at all the potential downsides and say they still support the change then at least we've had an actual discussion about the mechanics as opposed to just everyone agreeing that a change should occur.

You're right that downsides aren't discussed enough. That's one of the reasons i included in my post that for me personally, i'd be fine with both a +5 energy cost increase and a 2s CD increase. Just for example. I appreciate you thinking about these things though. :-)

[Dace.8173]

@WraithOfStealth.1624 said:

I get your stance, but by that logic wouldn't it be fair if we get rid of all the other stunbreaks then? We have legend swap stunbreak after all. If you weren't running Invocation, getting CC'd in Ventari would require you to first legend swap and then stunbreak. Depending on your reaction time lets say that's a full 1-2 seconds used. That just seems like very clunky gameplay to me. I would like the class to be less reliant on Invocation/Empty Vessel, but i say this knowing that most classes have a trait line that's semi-mandatory.

Theoretically yes in practice no. Removing it from the other Legends could work if the other Legends got the same benefits that Ventari has without it, i.e. lower cooldowns on the skills that have them, lower Energy costs, and the ability to still make use of their abilities while stunned. Ventari is still able to continue its support function while stunned. When you're running with Shiro and get stunned that's it for you. It's pretty clear that Ventari lacking a stun break has factored into the overall cost and investment for using Ventari. If the other Legends got that then sure, Legend swap would likely be enough. But they don't. Then again if Ventari wasn't a support Legends and stunning it stopped it from doing anything at all I would argue that it needs a stun break. As a support Legend stunning Ventari doesn't hurt as badly as it does to an attack Legend.

If Ventari filled the same role the other Legends do I would agree that it would NEED a stun break. However, since it doesn't, and it's mechanics were created in a fashion to mitigate stuns while at the same time requiring a lower investment level Legend swap actually does pretty well. All things considered, forcing Ventari players to Legend swap when they get stunned can go a long way to helping them survive as it forces them to react and change strategies based on what they are having to deal with in the moment as opposed to just camping Ventari and trying to make Ventari's heals perform the functions that other Legends perform.

I think it's both, no energy as well as the lack of a stunbreak will screw you. If i'm CC'd and out of energy on Shiro or Mallyx, i will legend swap as intended with the class. But if my other legend is Ventari, what do i do then? My own experience tells me that healing generally won't keep you alive.

Ok, but in this situation the problem here is the fact that Ventari doesn't synergize very well with Mallyx or Shiro, not due to a lack of a stun break (more so when you consider that Shiro and Mally have a stun break thus you don't need to swap in order to handle that situation). To be honest, Ventari should have better synergy with at least Mallyx. Being able to use Mal to mitigate conditions and Ven to mitigate damage taken from that mitigation should have been a natural setup.

Can you explain this lack of synergy further? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

Sure. Basically, there isn't a good Legend for Ventari to play off of. There isn't a Legend that inherently benefits the player if they swap into it for Ventari. Power Herald has Shiro and Glint and those two work great together. You are able to use Glint to enhance Shiro's attacks. You can start out in Glint and use Facet of Darkness for Fury and Facet of Strength for Fury and then pop Facet of Nature for an increased boon duration before swapping into Shiro and using Impossible Odds. Glint allows you to do some strong setups before moving into other Legends and thus it has fairly strong synergy with the other professions. Ventari doesn't really have something like that going for it.

You're right about situations with multiple CC's, i would personally like to have the opportunity to attempt a stunbreak though. Even if i get hit by another one right afterwards i at least have a chance (if my reaction time is good) to prevent it with a dodge or staff block/evade.

You still have that access when you Legend swap. All things considered, if you are in Ventari and you are getting hit with multiple CC's your best bet is to leave Ventari and make use of the defensive abilities from Legends like Shiro and Jalis. The lack of a stun break encourages a playstyle that will help you survive an encounter.

Why not though? Their respective legends fulfil different roles of course, but if we are discussing energy costs for a skill before/after potentially getting a stunbreak shouldn't we compare it to the stunbreak skills already in place?

Because they serve completely different functions. We should compare them but not in terms of which one is superior or inferior but on the grounds of whether or not it achieves the goal it sets out to do. In general, you'll find that most proactive combat abilities to be better than reactive and/or passive support abilities. However, that doesn't matter much if that reactive and passive support ability is doing its job well.

I don't disagree with the first part, but PE isn't that passive to me. Passive to me would be a skill that regenerates health for you like Healing Signet on warrior, or signets in general. PE actively removes damage on me in most cases. Unless you specifically mean the evade/movement part of RS? Mabey i misunderstood.

Purifying Essence is more reactive. You use it after you've been hit with something. Riposting Shadows is more proactive, you can use it to avoid damage and conditions. Yes, it will remove them if you happen to get hit but you get more out of RS if you are using it to avoid being hit with something in the first place.

[Obe.4283]

@Dace.8173 Thanks for the response! Helped clear things up. :-)

Theoretically yes in practice no. Removing it from the other Legends could work if the other Legends got the same benefits that Ventari has without it, i.e. lower cooldowns on the skills that have them, lower Energy costs, and the ability to still make use of their abilities while stunned. Ventari is still able to continue its support function while stunned. When you're running with Shiro and get stunned that's it for you. It's pretty clear that Ventari lacking a stun break has factored into the overall cost and investment for using Ventari. If the other Legends got that then sure, Legend swap would likely be enough. But they don't. Then again if Ventari wasn't a support Legends and stunning it stopped it from doing anything at all I would argue that it needs a stun break. As a support Legend stunning Ventari doesn't hurt as badly as it does to an attack Legend.

That i agree with.

Sure. Basically, there isn't a good Legend for Ventari to play off of. There isn't a Legend that inherently benefits the player if they swap into it for Ventari. Power Herald has Shiro and Glint and those two work great together. You are able to use Glint to enhance Shiro's attacks. You can start out in Glint and use Facet of Darkness for Fury and Facet of Strength for Fury and then pop Facet of Nature for an increased boon duration before swapping into Shiro and using Impossible Odds. Glint allows you to do some strong setups before moving into other Legends and thus it has fairly strong synergy with the other professions. Ventari doesn't really have something like that going for it.

Ok i see what you mean. That's very herald specific indeed, the other legends don't really have that setup ability.

When i think of how Mallyx/Ventari in my build work together i mostly view it as a sword/shield concept. Use Mallyx to increase damage output and move around, take a defensive stance with Ventari to increase sustain/damage mitigation and control enemy movement with Energy Expulsion. It's more of a situation where each legend compensates the other for what they lack. I'd say the setup in Ventari is getting you ready to go in hard on damage again once you swap out, by sustaining you and possibly setting up a burst through energy expulsion.

Purifying Essence is more reactive. You use it after you've been hit with something. Riposting Shadows is more proactive, you can use it to avoid damage and conditions. Yes, it will remove them if you happen to get hit but you get more out of RS if you are using it to avoid being hit with something in the first place.

Ah i see, i wasn't 100% sure if that was what you meant. Thanks!