Climbing out of gold is impossible, Change my mind

[Aza.2105]

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay so here I am, stuck in gold since like 200 games and I came to the conclusion that it is impossible to climb out of it if you don't get placed in platin in the first place or win 10 times in a row (which is pretty much impossible). People are just to braindead in gold, necros who go far instead of fighting with their fb, people who run into a 3-1 in mid instead of waiting for the team and so on I'm sure you saw these people as well. I rarely get close games, it's either you won the dice roll and the enemy team has the idiot or you lost it and you loose 500-200.

So my statement stands, try to change my mind.

Its quite possible. I do it all the time when I'm experimenting. There are a few variables that make it possible:

• How viable your build is
• How knowledgeable you are of the build and class you are playing
• And a bit of luck with getting teammates who want to coordinate

[Tiipi.6750]

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

[Alatar.7364]

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession, extremely bad for solo-carry.

[Tiipi.6750]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession,

extremely

bad for solo-carry.

Thieves and revenants can have the most impact on a game.

[Alatar.7364]

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession,

extremely

bad for solo-carry.

Thieves and revenants can have the most impact on a game.

Only when their Team is already doing well enough to allow them to have an impact.Thief nor Revenant can never single handedly carry a match unlike Boonbeast, good Holo or FBs

[Tiipi.6750]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession,

extremely

bad for solo-carry.

Thieves and revenants can have the most impact on a game.

Only when their Team is

already

doing well enough to allow them to have an impact.Thief nor Revenant can never single handedly carry a match unlike Boonbeast, good Holo or FBs

Boonbeast and holo are duellists wich mean they will likely only impact one node (well not just one but you get the idea) while thieves and revenants will impact every nodes.

[Kumouta.4985]

i mamaged to climb to p1 eventually so clearly it isn't completely impossible

[Alatar.7364]

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession,

extremely

bad for solo-carry.

Thieves and revenants can have the most impact on a game.

Only when their Team is

already

doing well enough to allow them to have an impact.Thief nor Revenant can never single handedly carry a match unlike Boonbeast, good Holo or FBs

Boonbeast and holo are duellists wich mean they will likely only impact one node (well not just one but you get the idea) while thieves and revenants will impact every nodes.

That's exactly why Thieves and Revenants can't solo carry. Their team needs to be already doing well in order for them to be able to rotate, Boonbeast can easily 1v2, hell even stall 1v3s if enemy is dumb, which is exactly whats needed if your team is not good and can't even do even team fights.

[Tiipi.6750]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession,

extremely

bad for solo-carry.

Thieves and revenants can have the most impact on a game.

Only when their Team is

already

doing well enough to allow them to have an impact.Thief nor Revenant can never single handedly carry a match unlike Boonbeast, good Holo or FBs

Boonbeast and holo are duellists wich mean they will likely only impact one node (well not just one but you get the idea) while thieves and revenants will impact every nodes.

That's exactly why Thieves and Revenants can't solo carry. Their team needs to be already doing well in order for them to be able to rotate, Boonbeast can easily 1v2, hell even stall 1v3s if enemy is dumb, which is exactly whats needed if your team is not good and can't even do even team fights.

With that logic ele is the best carry in the game.

[Alatar.7364]

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession,

extremely

bad for solo-carry.

Thieves and revenants can have the most impact on a game.

Only when their Team is

already

doing well enough to allow them to have an impact.Thief nor Revenant can never single handedly carry a match unlike Boonbeast, good Holo or FBs

Boonbeast and holo are duellists wich mean they will likely only impact one node (well not just one but you get the idea) while thieves and revenants will impact every nodes.

That's exactly why Thieves and Revenants can't solo carry. Their team needs to be already doing well in order for them to be able to rotate, Boonbeast can easily 1v2, hell even stall 1v3s if enemy is dumb, which is exactly whats needed if your team is not good and can't even do even team fights.

With that logic ele is the best carry in the game.

What the last time you've seen ele kill two people and in an instant rotate and instagib someone else.Don't confuse stalling 1v2 on Neutral node with winning 1v2 on your team nodes and then instagibing someone else somewhere else.

[Tiipi.6750]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:Okay I guess my statement was clearly refuted and I'll just try to rank up anyway. So I'd be interessted in your opinion on what would be the best class to carry?

Thief or revenant.

Both Thief and Revenant are the most team dependant profession,

extremely

bad for solo-carry.

Thieves and revenants can have the most impact on a game.

Only when their Team is

already

doing well enough to allow them to have an impact.Thief nor Revenant can never single handedly carry a match unlike Boonbeast, good Holo or FBs

Boonbeast and holo are duellists wich mean they will likely only impact one node (well not just one but you get the idea) while thieves and revenants will impact every nodes.

That's exactly why Thieves and Revenants can't solo carry. Their team needs to be already doing well in order for them to be able to rotate, Boonbeast can easily 1v2, hell even stall 1v3s if enemy is dumb, which is exactly whats needed if your team is not good and can't even do even team fights.

With that logic ele is the best carry in the game.

What the last time you've seen ele kill two people and in an instant rotate and instagib someone else.Don't confuse stalling 1v2 on Neutral node with winning 1v2 on your team nodes and then instagibing someone else somewhere else.

Realistcly unless the soulbeast is way better he won't win a 1v2.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

I've climbed out of gold playing renegod several times.

Although now it's best to not take ranked too seriously. There are not enough people playing which causes matchmaking to go haywire. Also the win traders exploiting duo-Q are back in full force this season.

[SteepledHat.1345]

Play everything, but focus on what you're best at. From gold 2 to plat 2. EZ

[otto.5684]

@Mysticjedi.6053 said:I typically climb from Silver 3 to Platinum 2 all by solo queue when I play my main (Guardian) an entire season. So, yes it is possible.

If you can make it to P2, how the hell you ended up in silver to begin with.

[Curennos.9307]

Am in a similar situation.

I can either be at the mercy of my team and play my thief, where I'm reliant on 4 other possible idiots and we'll win or lose no matter what I do (with a rare occurrence where I can play like an absolute god and bring it back - did so early today, very proud, 1/200 games though).

Or I can duoQ with my firebrand friend, play scourge (about as good as my thief), rotate flawlessly/never die once during the entire match/almost reach 1mil damage/me and the FB get ALL the top stats...and we can still lose because the other 3 are numbskulls.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529241054025744424/unknown.png

Seriously, look at this absolute garbage. It was pretty much that, repeated over and over for 6 hours last night.

[Koen.1327]

@"Curennos.9307" said:Am in a similar situation.

I can either be at the mercy of my team and play my thief, where I'm reliant on 4 other possible idiots and we'll win or lose no matter what I do (with a rare occurrence where I can play like an absolute god and bring it back - did so early today, very proud, 1/200 games though).

Or I can duoQ with my firebrand friend, play scourge (about as good as my thief), rotate flawlessly/never die once during the entire match/almost reach 1mil damage/me and the FB get ALL the top stats...and we can still lose because the other 3 are numbskulls.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529241054025744424/unknown.png

Seriously, look at this absolute garbage. It was pretty much that, repeated over and over for 6 hours last night.

You still died 4 times (19%) which is team average pretty much. Top stats means prolonged fights which means you didnt kill fast enough.Also all stats are lower than the enemy team so someone carried their numbskulls harder than you did.

Not dying is most important factor, especially gold

[Liza.2758]

I have a different point of view here.

I was plat 1 on NA this season. I had a hard time going higher because 90% of games i got some silver gold in my games

I’m not super good at carrying like some other

I switched to EU. Wow i have so much better time. The quality and population are so much better. I got to plat 2 very fast

And I also become so much better player after having to play in more competitive server

• if you are already in eu. Then I guess. You have to improve yourself

[Curennos.9307]

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Curennos.9307" said:Am in a similar situation.

I can either be at the mercy of my team and play my thief, where I'm reliant on 4 other possible idiots and we'll win or lose no matter what I do (with a rare occurrence where I can play like an absolute god and bring it back - did so early today, very proud, 1/200 games though).

Or I can duoQ with my firebrand friend, play scourge (about as good as my thief), rotate flawlessly/never die once during the entire match/almost reach 1mil damage/me and the FB get ALL the top stats...and we can still lose because the other 3 are numbskulls.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529241054025744424/unknown.png

Seriously, look at this absolute garbage. It was pretty much that, repeated over and over for 6 hours last night.

You still died 4 times (19%) which is team average pretty much. Top stats means prolonged fights which means you didnt kill fast enough.Also all stats are lower than the enemy team so someone carried their numbskulls harder than you did.

Not dying is most important factor, especially gold

In hindsight, I understand how you might've made this assumption - I do not mean that THAT SCREENSHOT RIGHT THERE is the prime example of everything I've just listed, all in one, yadda yadda, I'm a god among men. It's just the only one I bothered to screenshot. Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here, if anything?

[Koen.1327]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Am in a similar situation.

I can either be at the mercy of my team and play my thief, where I'm reliant on 4 other possible idiots and we'll win or lose no matter what I do (with a rare occurrence where I can play like an absolute god and bring it back - did so early today, very proud, 1/200 games though).

Or I can duoQ with my firebrand friend, play scourge (about as good as my thief), rotate flawlessly/never die once during the entire match/almost reach 1mil damage/me and the FB get ALL the top stats...and we can still lose because the other 3 are numbskulls.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529241054025744424/unknown.png

Seriously, look at this absolute garbage. It was pretty much that, repeated over and over for 6 hours last night.

You still died 4 times (19%) which is team average pretty much. Top stats means prolonged fights which means you didnt kill fast enough.Also all stats are lower than the enemy team so someone carried their numbskulls harder than you did.

Not dying is most important factor, especially gold

In hindsight, I understand how you might've made this assumption - I do not mean that THAT SCREENSHOT RIGHT THERE is the prime example of everything I've just listed, all in one, yadda yadda, I'm a god among men. It's just the only one I bothered to screenshot. Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here, if anything?

Just made me confused if the screenshot is not relevant is all

Id run duelist + roamer instead of fb+scourge so you have better node coverage as indeed you would be dependant on your teammates taking at least 1 node otherwise.

[Curennos.9307]

@Koen.1327 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:Am in a similar situation.

I can either be at the mercy of my team and play my thief, where I'm reliant on 4 other possible idiots and we'll win or lose no matter what I do (with a rare occurrence where I can play like an absolute god and bring it back - did so early today, very proud, 1/200 games though).

Or I can duoQ with my firebrand friend, play scourge (about as good as my thief), rotate flawlessly/never die once during the entire match/almost reach 1mil damage/me and the FB get ALL the top stats...and we can still lose because the other 3 are numbskulls.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529241054025744424/unknown.png

Seriously, look at this absolute garbage. It was pretty much that, repeated over and over for 6 hours last night.

You still died 4 times (19%) which is team average pretty much. Top stats means prolonged fights which means you didnt kill fast enough.Also all stats are lower than the enemy team so someone carried their numbskulls harder than you did.

Not dying is most important factor, especially gold

In hindsight, I understand how you might've made this assumption - I do not mean that THAT SCREENSHOT RIGHT THERE is the prime example of everything I've just listed, all in one, yadda yadda, I'm a god among men. It's just the only one I bothered to screenshot. Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here, if anything?

Just made me confused if the screenshot is not relevant is all

Id run duelist + roamer instead of fb+scourge so you have better node coverage as indeed you would be dependant on your teammates taking at least 1 node otherwise.

More of a "Look at the kind of stupid shit that happens." I don't have screenshots, but I've had necros trying to play decapper (core necros at that, who clearly haven't read their skill tooltips), mirages that feed mid the entire game, warriors who just instantly die (literally, instantly), people who don't know stomping vs. cleaving downs, etc etc. +1'ing the OP, as it were.

Thanks though, I hadn't thought of that last bit.

[Swagg.9236]

Oh boy, necroposting!https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62751/any-way-to-get-out-of-gold-if-all-i-like-to-play-is-staff-elementalist#latest

But in all seriousness, progressing up the ladder in ranked GW2 PvP is more of a dice roll than anything else. Low population, party size limits for queues, and excessive bloat options which don't really compete with the low effort meta means that teams are assembled by what is effectively RNG and a lot of matches are decided before they begin.

It still makes me wonder why, in these circumstances, there is a difference in participation rewards between winners and losers. Not that winners ought not to get more than losers, that's fine, but if we're dealing with what is basically ELO gambling here, why is there a distinction made between the two? If anything, everyone in GW2 PvP should be getting 10 pips per game just for participating in such a withered game mode.

[Zenix.6198]

If you want to "carry" your team: damage always has, and always will be the way to go.Support is good to have, but when you have nothing to support or people just die way too fast anyway because they refuse to kite, its really offers nothing more than some bunkering. Whereas getting kills faster always gives your team a momentum boost and just makes steamrolling a match that much easier.

So Id say play something like core guard, reaper (just dont stack necros) or even LB soulbeast (which does pretty well in unorganized play imo)

[canseemee.8645]

Climbing out of gold is more than possible. It just means you have to be good enough to carry the rest of your teammates as much as you can.

If you cant carry teammates, maybe you dont belong in plat.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I'm not a big PvP player, having played only one ranked season with only dailies and dueling since then. However, I finished my season in platinum and it seemed pretty clear to me that matchmaking, while frustrating at times, absolutely does work.

If matchmaking doesn't work, why was I stuck in gold 1 initially? Was it bad luck holding me back? If so, then why did changing my build/strategy immediately result in a quick and easy climb all the way up into upper gold 3 after bouncing against that gold 1 ceiling for so many games but never once breaking through? I don't think it was coincidence that the change I made was a shift toward the meta for my class at the time. Do you?

If matchmaking doesn't work, why did I then hit a new ceiling in plat 1? I got within 2 wins of top 250 with just 3 days left in the season and it felt awesome! Greatness was within my grasp! But it wasn't meant to be and it was easy for me to tell because I had broken into upper plat 1 several times at that point. But just like it was at the beginning of my season, I just couldn't break through that ceiling.

You're going to win and lose a lot of games that never had a chance to be competitive due to bad matchmaking. But so is everyone else. Those games, while frustrating, don't really impact your rating in the long run because you're as likely to win due to bad matchmaking as you are to lose from it. What matters is that you consistently make enough of an impact to win more of those winnable matches than you lose. If you can do that then you will climb.

The ceiling tells you when you've reached your limit. You can perhaps get around it with practice, by changing strategy, build, or class. But if you don't change anything you're almost certainly going to find that you can't climb any further.

It also doesn't really matter what you've achieved before. Remember my little story about being stuck in gold 1? It wasn't because I wasn't capable of playing at a much higher level and it wasn't because of bad luck. It was because the build I was using wasn't producing enough of an impact to shift the balance of wins to losses in my favor over time. Given that, it's entirely possible that you could achieve platinum rank one season, have the meta change on you and then struggle to achieve the same outcome the next season.

I'm not saying matchmaking is perfect. Far from it. But it seems to do what it's supposed to do, at least from my experience in gold and low platinum tiers.

[Curennos.9307]

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I'm not a big PvP player, having played only one ranked season with only dailies and dueling since then. However, I finished my season in platinum and it seemed pretty clear to me that matchmaking, while frustrating at times, absolutely does work.

If matchmaking doesn't work, why was I stuck in gold 1 initially? Was it bad luck holding me back? If so, then why did changing my build/strategy immediately result in a quick and easy climb all the way up into upper gold 3 after bouncing against that gold 1 ceiling for so many games but never once breaking through? I don't think it was coincidence that the change I made was a shift toward the meta for my class at the time. Do you?

If matchmaking doesn't work, why did I then hit a new ceiling in plat 1? I got within 2 wins of top 250 with just 3 days left in the season and it felt awesome! Greatness was within my grasp! But it wasn't meant to be and it was easy for me to tell because I had broken into upper plat 1 several times at that point. But just like it was at the beginning of my season, I just couldn't break through that ceiling.

You're going to win and lose a lot of games that never had a chance to be competitive due to bad matchmaking. But so is everyone else. Those games, while frustrating, don't really impact your rating in the long run because you're as likely to win due to bad matchmaking as you are to lose from it. What matters is that you consistently make enough of an impact to win more of those winnable matches than you lose. If you can do that then you will climb.

The ceiling tells you when you've reached your limit. You can perhaps get around it with practice, by changing strategy, build, or class. But if you don't change anything you're almost certainly going to find that you can't climb any further.

It also doesn't really matter what you've achieved before. Remember my little story about being stuck in gold 1? It wasn't because I wasn't capable of playing at a much higher level and it wasn't because of bad luck. It was because the build I was using wasn't producing enough of an impact to shift the balance of wins to losses in my favor over time. Given that, it's entirely possible that you could achieve platinum rank one season, have the meta change on you and then struggle to achieve the same outcome the next season.

I'm not saying matchmaking is perfect. Far from it. But it seems to do what it's supposed to do, at least from my experience in gold and low platinum tiers.

I don't want to discount your experience - far from it, and in fact I hold it as the gold (heh) standard. However, my experience has been directly contradictory to yours.

I've gone through 3 warrior builds, all based off metabattle, advice in discord.Same for scourge, thief, and 2 for holo (the meta rifle one and a sword/shield purity of purpose cleanse setup - very good at carrying).

I don't really meet anyone that I can't beat in a 1v1, or even 1v2. I managed to survive a deadeye's pewpew + a warrior's rampage at the same time in the game I just finished several minutes ago, in which we were 75ish (?)points ahead, only to have a DC on our side. They came back just within the timer limit (If someone DCs for long enough you don't lose or gain rank - they came back within that, as I lost rank at the end).

Anyway. We'd been winning by a significant margin and ended up losing 500-300. I never lost a 1v1 or a 1v2. I even managed to hold a 1v3.

I'm currently hovering in gold 3 - I almost broke into plat, but a string of losses has brought me down to 1408 rating.

I don't like to...how to say, toot my own horn? But based on ~200 games in the past several weeks, I am definitely better than the vast majority of gold players.

There are times, yes, where I -can- carry well enough - two days ago, I even managed to pull off https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529466680926273536/unknown.png . I got zero (I think?) top stats, but absolutely obliterated the other team near the end - even got a tell near the end thanking me for pretty much winning the game for them, + what you see in team chat (I indulged in a little bit of strutting, I admit >.>).

Now, keeping all that in mind...I can see how matchmaking is doing it's job /IN THE LONG RUN/. Very important key phrase there - if someone totally wiped my memory of the season and only showed me the end result, I'd probably go "Oh, yeah, okay, I ended up with ~50% win rate, yadda yadda. That looks fair. Good job anet."

Unfortunately, as a player, I have to actually suffer through each individual game - the matchmaker doesn't know the difference between a 100-500 loss and a 400-500 loss. It clearly doesn't compensate for DCs on either team, or at least in a way that's easily discernable.

There's a vast difference in having a 50/50 win/loss ratio where 50% of them are steamrolls and 50% of them are losses due to everything BUT your own skill level (DCs, bots if you're in silver or wherever it is that bots hang out

In short, my issue is that if matchmaking was designed to maintain a 50/50 win/loss ratio at any cost, it is indeed doing so. However, the statistics don't show what happens on a per-game basis - a 1-500 loss is the same as a 499-500 loss, and it may or may not actually have anything to do with your team or the enemy team.

Now, I won't claim to be amazing. Perhaps I do, indeed, deserve my g3 ranking. If that IS the case and I'm right where I should be, then why in the HECK am I seeing such massive variance in match quality? If I accept that as truth, I'm seeing things that just...should not be happening if I'm right where I should be.

So, there's a decent description of my own experiences, which seem to directly contradict yours. And, really, if this is a common experience...we really should demand Anet do better. My current experiences heavily discourage me from playing the game for more than, say...30min a day, and to cherry-pick to play only when things are going well. Something has gone wrong if a game encourages you to play less to do/get more/further.