Climbing out of gold is impossible, Change my mind

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:I'm not a big PvP player, having played only one ranked season with only dailies and dueling since then. However, I finished my season in platinum and it seemed pretty clear to me that matchmaking, while frustrating at times, absolutely does work.

If matchmaking doesn't work, why was I stuck in gold 1 initially? Was it bad luck holding me back? If so, then why did changing my build/strategy immediately result in a quick and easy climb all the way up into upper gold 3 after bouncing against that gold 1 ceiling for so many games but never once breaking through? I don't think it was coincidence that the change I made was a shift toward the meta for my class at the time. Do you?

If matchmaking doesn't work, why did I then hit a new ceiling in plat 1? I got within 2 wins of top 250 with just 3 days left in the season and it felt awesome! Greatness was within my grasp! But it wasn't meant to be and it was easy for me to tell because I had broken into upper plat 1 several times at that point. But just like it was at the beginning of my season, I just couldn't break through that ceiling.

You're going to win and lose a lot of games that never had a chance to be competitive due to bad matchmaking. But so is everyone else. Those games, while frustrating, don't really impact your rating in the long run because you're as likely to win due to bad matchmaking as you are to lose from it. What matters is that you consistently make enough of an impact to win more of those winnable matches than you lose. If you can do that then you will climb.

The ceiling tells you when you've reached your limit. You can perhaps get around it with practice, by changing strategy, build, or class. But if you don't change anything you're almost certainly going to find that you can't climb any further.

It also doesn't really matter what you've achieved before. Remember my little story about being stuck in gold 1? It wasn't because I wasn't capable of playing at a much higher level and it wasn't because of bad luck. It was because the build I was using wasn't producing enough of an impact to shift the balance of wins to losses in my favor over time. Given that, it's entirely possible that you could achieve platinum rank one season, have the meta change on you and then struggle to achieve the same outcome the next season.

I'm not saying matchmaking is perfect. Far from it. But it seems to do what it's supposed to do, at least from my experience in gold and low platinum tiers.

I don't want to discount your experience - far from it, and in fact I hold it as the gold (heh) standard. However, my experience has been directly contradictory to yours.

I've gone through 3 warrior builds, all based off metabattle, advice in discord.Same for scourge, thief, and 2 for holo (the meta rifle one and a sword/shield purity of purpose cleanse setup - very good at carrying).

I don't really meet anyone that I can't beat in a 1v1, or even 1v2. I managed to survive a deadeye's pewpew + a warrior's rampage at the same time in the game I just finished several minutes ago, in which we were 75ish (?)points ahead, only to have a DC on our side. They came back just within the timer limit (If someone DCs for long enough you don't lose or gain rank - they came back within that, as I lost rank at the end).

Anyway. We'd been winning by a significant margin and ended up losing 500-300. I never lost a 1v1 or a 1v2. I even managed to hold a 1v3.

I'm currently hovering in gold 3 - I almost broke into plat, but a string of losses has brought me down to 1408 rating.

I don't like to...how to say, toot my own horn? But based on ~200 games in the past several weeks, I am definitely better than the vast majority of gold players.

There are times, yes, where I -can- carry well enough - two days ago, I even managed to pull off

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529466680926273536/unknown.png

. I got zero (I think?) top stats, but absolutely obliterated the other team near the end - even got a tell near the end thanking me for pretty much winning the game for them, + what you see in team chat (I indulged in a little bit of strutting, I admit >.>).

Now, keeping all that in mind...I can see how matchmaking is doing it's job /IN THE LONG RUN/. Very important key phrase there - if someone totally wiped my memory of the season and only showed me the end result, I'd probably go "Oh, yeah, okay, I ended up with ~50% win rate, yadda yadda. That looks fair. Good job anet."

Unfortunately, as a player, I have to actually suffer through each individual game - the matchmaker doesn't know the difference between a 100-500 loss and a 400-500 loss. It clearly doesn't compensate for DCs on either team, or at least in a way that's easily discernable.

There's a vast difference in having a 50/50 win/loss ratio where 50% of them are steamrolls and 50% of them are losses due to everything BUT your own skill level (DCs, bots if you're in silver or wherever it is that bots hang out

In short, my issue is that if matchmaking was designed to maintain a 50/50 win/loss ratio at any cost, it is indeed doing so. However, the statistics don't show what happens on a per-game basis - a 1-500 loss is the same as a 499-500 loss, and it may or may not actually have anything to do with your team or the enemy team.

Now, I won't claim to be amazing. Perhaps I do, indeed, deserve my g3 ranking. If that IS the case and I'm right where I should be, then why in the HECK am I seeing such massive variance in match quality? If I accept that as truth, I'm seeing things that just...should not be happening if I'm right where I should be.

So, there's a decent description of my own experiences, which seem to directly contradict yours. And, really, if this is a common experience...we really should demand Anet do better. My current experiences heavily discourage me from playing the game for more than, say...30min a day, and to cherry-pick to play only when things are going well. Something has gone wrong if a game encourages you to play less to do/get more/further.

Unfortunately, it's a team game. Kills matter. Surviving matters. But ultimately what wins more games for you is how much of an impact you have on your team's ability to win. We all go on losing streaks, often for reasons beyond our control, but if you're making a positive impact at your rating level then over time you're going to climb. Remember that everyone else is going through the same thing.

In one of my early matches playing mirage, a very experienced PvP player noticed my terrible rotation and proceeded to call me out on it in chat. I explained that I was new to it and apologized for holding the team back, so we started talking and it turns out he was in the same PvP guild with me! Small world! He asked if I wanted to practice duel and we went at it for an hour or two during which he pulled in I think every single class he had. I won all of those duels (Yeah, I know. Mirage LoL - but I beat his Mirage, too!).

My point is that despite being a decidedly strong duelist, capable of more than holding my own against players far above me in rating, it wasn't enough by itself to win games. It wasn't the matchmaking system holding me back. It was me. I was (and am - I just don't PvP that much!) a complete noob when it comes to rotation and reading the map. I'll make beginner mistakes every time, even while I wipe the floor with everybody I come across at my rating. And that just isn't going to cut it when your role requires you to go off on your own, making plays. You have to know where to be and when. I lacked the experience to make it work as well as my "just follow the pack" team healer that required relatively little rotation.

Given that, I don't think your experience contradicts mine at all. Match variance is a given. But like I said, those no-chance wins and losses cancel each other out both in the sense that over time you're just as likely to get a win for that reason as a loss and because your competition are in the same boat. What matters are the games that are within your reach. The question is: Do you make the difference in those matches more often than not? If so, you will climb. If not, you will fall. But this is over a large number of matches. You can't just look at a snapshot or you'll only ever notice those ridiculous matchups that never had a chance (And I agree, there are far too many of them!).

[Curennos.9307]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I'm not a big PvP player, having played only one ranked season with only dailies and dueling since then. However, I finished my season in platinum and it seemed pretty clear to me that matchmaking, while frustrating at times, absolutely does work.

If matchmaking doesn't work, why was I stuck in gold 1 initially? Was it bad luck holding me back? If so, then why did changing my build/strategy immediately result in a quick and easy climb all the way up into upper gold 3 after bouncing against that gold 1 ceiling for so many games but never once breaking through? I don't think it was coincidence that the change I made was a shift toward the meta for my class at the time. Do you?

If matchmaking doesn't work, why did I then hit a new ceiling in plat 1? I got within 2 wins of top 250 with just 3 days left in the season and it felt awesome! Greatness was within my grasp! But it wasn't meant to be and it was easy for me to tell because I had broken into upper plat 1 several times at that point. But just like it was at the beginning of my season, I just couldn't break through that ceiling.

You're going to win and lose a lot of games that never had a chance to be competitive due to bad matchmaking. But so is everyone else. Those games, while frustrating, don't really impact your rating in the long run because you're as likely to win due to bad matchmaking as you are to lose from it. What matters is that you consistently make enough of an impact to win more of those winnable matches than you lose. If you can do that then you will climb.

The ceiling tells you when you've reached your limit. You can perhaps get around it with practice, by changing strategy, build, or class. But if you don't change anything you're almost certainly going to find that you can't climb any further.

It also doesn't really matter what you've achieved before. Remember my little story about being stuck in gold 1? It wasn't because I wasn't capable of playing at a much higher level and it wasn't because of bad luck. It was because the build I was using wasn't producing enough of an impact to shift the balance of wins to losses in my favor over time. Given that, it's entirely possible that you could achieve platinum rank one season, have the meta change on you and then struggle to achieve the same outcome the next season.

I'm not saying matchmaking is perfect. Far from it. But it seems to do what it's supposed to do, at least from my experience in gold and low platinum tiers.

I don't want to discount your experience - far from it, and in fact I hold it as the gold (heh) standard. However, my experience has been directly contradictory to yours.

I've gone through 3 warrior builds, all based off metabattle, advice in discord.Same for scourge, thief, and 2 for holo (the meta rifle one and a sword/shield purity of purpose cleanse setup - very good at carrying).

I don't really meet anyone that I can't beat in a 1v1, or even 1v2. I managed to survive a deadeye's pewpew + a warrior's rampage at the same time in the game I just finished several minutes ago, in which we were 75ish (?)points ahead, only to have a DC on our side. They came back just within the timer limit (If someone DCs for long enough you don't lose or gain rank - they came back within that, as I lost rank at the end).

Anyway. We'd been winning by a significant margin and ended up losing 500-300. I never lost a 1v1 or a 1v2. I even managed to hold a 1v3.

I'm currently hovering in gold 3 - I almost broke into plat, but a string of losses has brought me down to 1408 rating.

I don't like to...how to say, toot my own horn? But based on ~200 games in the past several weeks, I am definitely better than the vast majority of gold players.

There are times, yes, where I -can- carry well enough - two days ago, I even managed to pull off

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529466680926273536/unknown.png

. I got zero (I think?) top stats, but absolutely obliterated the other team near the end - even got a tell near the end thanking me for pretty much winning the game for them, + what you see in team chat (I indulged in a little bit of strutting, I admit >.>).

Now, keeping all that in mind...I can see how matchmaking is doing it's job /IN THE LONG RUN/. Very important key phrase there - if someone totally wiped my memory of the season and only showed me the end result, I'd probably go "Oh, yeah, okay, I ended up with ~50% win rate, yadda yadda. That looks fair. Good job anet."

Unfortunately, as a player, I have to actually suffer through each individual game - the matchmaker doesn't know the difference between a 100-500 loss and a 400-500 loss. It clearly doesn't compensate for DCs on either team, or at least in a way that's easily discernable.

There's a vast difference in having a 50/50 win/loss ratio where 50% of them are steamrolls and 50% of them are losses due to everything BUT your own skill level (DCs, bots if you're in silver or wherever it is that bots hang out

In short, my issue is that if matchmaking was designed to maintain a 50/50 win/loss ratio at any cost, it is indeed doing so. However, the statistics don't show what happens on a per-game basis - a 1-500 loss is the same as a 499-500 loss, and it may or may not actually have anything to do with your team or the enemy team.

Now, I won't claim to be amazing. Perhaps I do, indeed, deserve my g3 ranking. If that IS the case and I'm right where I should be, then why in the HECK am I seeing such massive variance in match quality? If I accept that as truth, I'm seeing things that just...should not be happening if I'm right where I should be.

So, there's a decent description of my own experiences, which seem to directly contradict yours. And, really, if this is a common experience...we really should demand Anet do better. My current experiences heavily discourage me from playing the game for more than, say...30min a day, and to cherry-pick to play only when things are going well. Something has gone wrong if a game encourages you to play less to do/get more/further.

Unfortunately, it's a team game. Kills matter. Surviving matters. But ultimately what wins more games for you is how much of an impact you have on your team's ability to win. We all go on losing streaks, often for reasons beyond our control, but if you're making a positive impact at your rating level then over time you're going to climb. Remember that everyone else is going through the same thing.

In one of my early matches playing mirage, a very experienced PvP player noticed my terrible rotation and proceeded to call me out on it in chat. I explained that I was new to it and apologized for holding the team back, so we started talking and it turns out he was in the same PvP guild with me! Small world! He asked if I wanted to practice duel and we went at it for an hour or two during which he pulled in I think every single class he had. I won all of those duels (Yeah, I know. Mirage LoL - but I beat his Mirage, too!).

My point is that despite being a decidedly strong duelist, capable of more than holding my own against players far above me in rating, it wasn't enough by itself to win games. It wasn't the matchmaking system holding me back. It was me. I was (and am - I just don't PvP that much!) a complete noob when it comes to rotation and reading the map. I'll make beginner mistakes every time, even while I wipe the floor with everybody I come across at my rating. And that just isn't going to cut it when your role requires you to go off on your own, making plays. You have to know where to be and when. I lacked the experience to make it work as well as my "just follow the pack" team healer that required relatively little rotation.

Given that, I don't think your experience contradicts mine at all. Match variance is a given. But like I said, those no-chance wins and losses cancel each other out both in the sense that over time you're just as likely to get a win for that reason as a loss and because your competition are in the same boat. What matters are the games that are within your reach. The question is: Do you make the difference in those matches more often than not? If so, you will climb. If not, you will fall. But this is over a large number of matches. You can't just look at a snapshot or you'll only ever notice those ridiculous matchups that never had a chance (And I agree, there are far too many of them!).

That right there - your first sentence - pretty much sums up my entire issue with this.

"Unfortunately, it's a team game."

I just want you to sit back and really mull that over for a couple seconds - A team game...unfortunately? I will say I can have some phrasing issues - there's something I'm trying to get at that that I can't quite place, but I think it's pretty well encompassed by 'unfortunately it's a team game' - something is clearly wrong.

Also, you seem to have missed my point - either because I didn't explain it well enough or whatever. Regardless, two times a charm.

Your last paragraph - I am fine with match variance in the sense that I fully expect to lose some and win some. That's fine, and welcome even. What gets me is that no matter win or lose, it far-too-often has little to do with me. Or at least, it feels like it.

DC on the other team? I can't...really improve myself that way. DC on mine and we lose? Same thing. I really want to stress how MUCH variance there is, and how it impacts not only my rating number, but my ability to work myself higher. It's unfortunate that the games that feel close because of teams being relatively equal are few and far between.

Again, I won't deny that there's a possibility of my overestimating my own skill level, but I CAN be relatively certain. Still, I'm a bit 'meh' about your blanket statements near the end of your post. I duo with a friend who has twice the number of matches as I am. They're well above me in skill level, but remain around the same rating I am (They play support firebrand - very well, I might add, and I could never get a handle on that). I'm not too interested in analyzing your experiences - only that yours seems very different (perhaps contradictory was the wrong word), and there's a reason why that is - perhaps that reason needs adjusting of some sort.

Also, I want to stress that the matchmaker is DEFINITELY doing its job as designed....if it was designed to maintain a 50/50 split as much as possible - one DC On my team per DC on the other team, 1 loss 1 win, but I have slightly higher expectations than that.

And yes, I imagine both our PoVs are a tad limited at the moment. If something changes (I got a bit of a late start on the season), I will definitely poke back in here.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I say it's unfortunate because, to me, it is. My biggest criticism of PvP in this game isn't matchmaking. It isn't the combat system or class balance. It's the fact that we have only 1 game mode. It's not even a bad one. But the fact that it's the only one makes GW2 PvP so much less than it could be.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

If your in gold, chances are thats where you belong. Its tough to come to the realization that hey im not as good as i thought. I came to realize that a while ago and im fine with that. Being top tier doesnt really mean anything to anyone else but yourself. Enjoy the game and dont strain yourself for nothing. The only thing that does is make you rage and not enjoy the experience.

[zittrbrt.9751]

This may sound harsh, but the math does not lie. If you are stuck in Gold, you probably belong there.

And whats so wrong with that? I am gold (2-3) and am pretty happy about it. My opponents are about as good as me. 1v1s are engaging, I can make a positive difference when I am good, a negative one when I am not having a good day... TL;DR: thats where I belong, and I like it.

Ask yourself: Do you want to go to Plat because you believe that comps, teammates and enemies and absolutely everything is going to be much better than in gold?Or, do you maybe just want the platinum badge next to your name to feed your ego? (absolutely no offense intended)

[Keyba.9570]

I mean if you want me to show you, I can literally buy an alt and stream it to show you getting to plat from gold is not impossible.

[Xar.6279]

Its possible to go from 600+ rating to 1500+ during 1 season :P Solo.And I am pretty sure its possible to go higher. I just had no more time this season (december holidays and stuff...) to check it.it just depends on your skill and some luck.I made a challenge in this season. For my livestream and myself also. So I can confirm that it is possible

But yeah - PvP is hell right now :P Its nothing new.It all slowly started in early 2017. When ArenaNet stopped organizing world PvP championships. Esl were shut down. They also removed 5v5 games from ranked. So everyone had to play solo. PvP scene died. And since this moment with every season it's getting worse

[SteepledHat.1345]

@Xar.6279 said:Its possible to go from 600+ rating to 1500+ during 1 season :P Solo.And I am pretty sure its possible to go higher. I just had no more time this season (december holidays and stuff...) to check it.it just depends on your skill and some luck.I made a challenge in this season. For my livestream and myself also. So I can confirm that it is possible

But yeah - PvP is hell right now :P Its nothing new.It all slowly started in early 2017. When ArenaNet stopped organizing world PvP championships. Esl were shut down. They also removed 5v5 games from ranked. So everyone had to play solo. PvP scene died. And since this moment with every season it's getting worse

Correction, everyone plays duo. All the top players do, for the most part. Huge difference.

[Derenaya.3479]

@dieterengelhardt.8759 said:This may sound harsh, but the math does not lie. If you are stuck in Gold, you probably belong there.

And whats so wrong with that? I am gold (2-3) and am pretty happy about it. My opponents are about as good as me. 1v1s are engaging, I can make a positive difference when I am good, a negative one when I am not having a good day... TL;DR: thats where I belong, and I like it.

Ask yourself: Do you want to go to Plat because you believe that comps, teammates and enemies and absolutely everything is going to be much better than in gold?Or, do you maybe just want the platinum badge next to your name to feed your ego? (absolutely no offense intended)

Don't wory, no offense taken^^ If you're happy with it that's good for you but I'm very competitive, not to the outside (badge) but I just like to be good :D I'm also tired of having players that don't know what their role is or don't know how to rotate. Sure I don't get these players every match but imo to often for gold (which should represent the avarage skill level (?)) but it's still annoying when I get them. So yes I believe I'll get better players in there regards in plat (although I kinda start to doubt it after watching a lot of streams xD).

[Keyba.9570]

@Derenaya.3479 said:

@dieterengelhardt.8759 said:This may sound harsh, but the math does not lie. If you are stuck in Gold, you probably belong there.

And whats so wrong with that? I am gold (2-3) and am pretty happy about it. My opponents are about as good as me. 1v1s are engaging, I can make a positive difference when I am good, a negative one when I am not having a good day... TL;DR: thats where I belong, and I like it.

Ask yourself: Do you want to go to Plat because you believe that comps, teammates and enemies and absolutely everything is going to be much better than in gold?Or, do you maybe just want the platinum badge next to your name to feed your ego? (absolutely no offense intended)

Don't wory, no offense taken^^ If you're happy with it that's good for you but I'm very competitive, not to the outside (badge) but I just like to be good :D I'm also tired of having players that don't know what their role is or don't know how to rotate. Sure I don't get these players every match but imo to often for gold (which should represent the avarage skill level (?)) but it's still annoying when I get them. So yes I believe I'll get better players in there regards in plat (although I kinda start to doubt it after watching a lot of streams xD).

Are you NA or EU

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

i play 99% thief in pvp and every season i get placed in gold and every season except for 2 i got to plat. certain builds i just couldnt fight and said fuck ill wait until next season when balance comes out. i also get bored and build test in ranked to much detriment. only thing you can do is learn your role do it as best you can hope your teammates do the same and if mids a lost cause remember playing sides saves lives.

[Derenaya.3479]

@Keyba.9570 said:

@Derenaya.3479 said:

@dieterengelhardt.8759 said:This may sound harsh, but the math does not lie. If you are stuck in Gold, you probably belong there.

And whats so wrong with that? I am gold (2-3) and am pretty happy about it. My opponents are about as good as me. 1v1s are engaging, I can make a positive difference when I am good, a negative one when I am not having a good day... TL;DR: thats where I belong, and I like it.

Ask yourself: Do you want to go to Plat because you believe that comps, teammates and enemies and absolutely everything is going to be much better than in gold?Or, do you maybe just want the platinum badge next to your name to feed your ego? (absolutely no offense intended)

Don't wory, no offense taken^^ If you're happy with it that's good for you but I'm very competitive, not to the outside (badge) but I just like to be good :D I'm also tired of having players that don't know what their role is or don't know how to rotate. Sure I don't get these players every match but imo to often for gold (which should represent the avarage skill level (?)) but it's still annoying when I get them. So yes I believe I'll get better players in there regards in plat (although I kinda start to doubt it after watching a lot of streams xD).

Are you NA or EU

EU

[Mysticjedi.6053]

@otto.5684 said:

@Mysticjedi.6053 said:I typically climb from Silver 3 to Platinum 2 all by solo queue when I play my main (Guardian) an entire season. So, yes it is possible.

If you can make it to P2, how the hell you ended up in silver to begin with.

Some seasons I do my placement matches with a class I am unfamiliar with then switch to my main.

[Abraxxus.8971]

I'd like to thank Arenanet for thinking I was actually getting better this season. Throughout most of the season, I clawed and kicked my way up to Gold 2 and hovered around in there until this past Monday. Now I'm in Silver 3 because I have been on a losing team ever since then. Thanks Arenanet!

[hOpe.6180]

this is my first PvP season, i calibrated gold2 (and falled to gold1) and i'm now plat2. imo the "hardest" part to climb is around 1500.anyhow don't want to be harsh but your case seems like just git gud issue honestly.

[phokus.8934]

@otto.5684 said:

@Mysticjedi.6053 said:I typically climb from Silver 3 to Platinum 2 all by solo queue when I play my main (Guardian) an entire season. So, yes it is possible.

If you can make it to P2, how the hell you ended up in silver to begin with.

It seems like he’s taking the first week or so of a season into consideration when your rating volatility is at its highest. And you get placed in silver and when you win a game you get +30.

[Dajas.4715]

What I don't get is that a lot off people in plat have a win ratio off just over 50% who are they more "skilled" then people with the same win ratio in say bronze silver?

[Dahkeus.8243]

Well, no one would be plat if they didn't hit gold first.

But if you're always focused on what mistakes your teammates are doing, you'll never progress. Getting salty will only bring you down and being salty to others will only make your teammates worse.

I wish I had a dollar for every over-emotional wannabe know-it-all that I run into in PvP.

[Swagg.9236]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I'm not a big PvP player, having played only one ranked season with only dailies and dueling since then. However, I finished my season in platinum and it seemed pretty clear to me that matchmaking, while frustrating at times, absolutely does work.

If matchmaking doesn't work, why was I stuck in gold 1 initially? Was it bad luck holding me back? If so, then why did changing my build/strategy immediately result in a quick and easy climb all the way up into upper gold 3 after bouncing against that gold 1 ceiling for so many games but never once breaking through? I don't think it was coincidence that the change I made was a shift toward the meta for my class at the time. Do you?

If matchmaking doesn't work, why did I then hit a new ceiling in plat 1? I got within 2 wins of top 250 with just 3 days left in the season and it felt awesome! Greatness was within my grasp! But it wasn't meant to be and it was easy for me to tell because I had broken into upper plat 1 several times at that point. But just like it was at the beginning of my season, I just couldn't break through that ceiling.

You're going to win and lose a lot of games that never had a chance to be competitive due to bad matchmaking. But so is everyone else. Those games, while frustrating, don't really impact your rating in the long run because you're as likely to win due to bad matchmaking as you are to lose from it. What matters is that you consistently make enough of an impact to win more of those winnable matches than you lose. If you can do that then you will climb.

The ceiling tells you when you've reached your limit. You can perhaps get around it with practice, by changing strategy, build, or class. But if you don't change anything you're almost certainly going to find that you can't climb any further.

It also doesn't really matter what you've achieved before. Remember my little story about being stuck in gold 1? It wasn't because I wasn't capable of playing at a much higher level and it wasn't because of bad luck. It was because the build I was using wasn't producing enough of an impact to shift the balance of wins to losses in my favor over time. Given that, it's entirely possible that you could achieve platinum rank one season, have the meta change on you and then struggle to achieve the same outcome the next season.

I'm not saying matchmaking is perfect. Far from it. But it seems to do what it's supposed to do, at least from my experience in gold and low platinum tiers.

I don't want to discount your experience - far from it, and in fact I hold it as the gold (heh) standard. However, my experience has been directly contradictory to yours.

I've gone through 3 warrior builds, all based off metabattle, advice in discord.Same for scourge, thief, and 2 for holo (the meta rifle one and a sword/shield purity of purpose cleanse setup - very good at carrying).

I don't really meet anyone that I can't beat in a 1v1, or even 1v2. I managed to survive a deadeye's pewpew + a warrior's rampage at the same time in the game I just finished several minutes ago, in which we were 75ish (?)points ahead, only to have a DC on our side. They came back just within the timer limit (If someone DCs for long enough you don't lose or gain rank - they came back within that, as I lost rank at the end).

Anyway. We'd been winning by a significant margin and ended up losing 500-300. I never lost a 1v1 or a 1v2. I even managed to hold a 1v3.

I'm currently hovering in gold 3 - I almost broke into plat, but a string of losses has brought me down to 1408 rating.

I don't like to...how to say, toot my own horn? But based on ~200 games in the past several weeks, I am definitely better than the vast majority of gold players.

There are times, yes, where I -can- carry well enough - two days ago, I even managed to pull off

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/383041599103565825/529466680926273536/unknown.png

. I got zero (I think?) top stats, but absolutely obliterated the other team near the end - even got a tell near the end thanking me for pretty much winning the game for them, + what you see in team chat (I indulged in a little bit of strutting, I admit >.>).

Now, keeping all that in mind...I can see how matchmaking is doing it's job /IN THE LONG RUN/. Very important key phrase there - if someone totally wiped my memory of the season and only showed me the end result, I'd probably go "Oh, yeah, okay, I ended up with ~50% win rate, yadda yadda. That looks fair. Good job anet."

Unfortunately, as a player, I have to actually suffer through each individual game - the matchmaker doesn't know the difference between a 100-500 loss and a 400-500 loss. It clearly doesn't compensate for DCs on either team, or at least in a way that's easily discernable.

There's a vast difference in having a 50/50 win/loss ratio where 50% of them are steamrolls and 50% of them are losses due to everything BUT your own skill level (DCs, bots if you're in silver or wherever it is that bots hang out

In short, my issue is that if matchmaking was designed to maintain a 50/50 win/loss ratio at any cost, it is indeed doing so. However, the statistics don't show what happens on a per-game basis - a 1-500 loss is the same as a 499-500 loss, and it may or may not actually have anything to do with your team or the enemy team.

Now, I won't claim to be amazing. Perhaps I do, indeed, deserve my g3 ranking. If that IS the case and I'm right where I should be, then why in the HECK am I seeing such massive variance in match quality? If I accept that as truth, I'm seeing things that just...should not be happening if I'm right where I should be.

So, there's a decent description of my own experiences, which seem to directly contradict yours. And, really, if this is a common experience...we really should demand Anet do better. My current experiences heavily discourage me from playing the game for more than, say...30min a day, and to cherry-pick to play only when things are going well. Something has gone wrong if a game encourages you to play less to do/get more/further.

Unfortunately, it's a team game. Kills matter. Surviving matters. But ultimately what wins more games for you is how much of an impact you have on your team's ability to win. We all go on losing streaks, often for reasons beyond our control, but if you're making a positive impact at your rating level then over time you're going to climb. Remember that everyone else is going through the same thing.

In one of my early matches playing mirage, a very experienced PvP player noticed my terrible rotation and proceeded to call me out on it in chat. I explained that I was new to it and apologized for holding the team back, so we started talking and it turns out he was in the same PvP guild with me! Small world! He asked if I wanted to practice duel and we went at it for an hour or two during which he pulled in I think every single class he had. I won all of those duels (Yeah, I know. Mirage LoL - but I beat his Mirage, too!).

My point is that despite being a decidedly strong duelist, capable of more than holding my own against players far above me in rating, it wasn't enough by itself to win games. It wasn't the matchmaking system holding me back. It was me. I was (and am - I just don't PvP that much!) a complete noob when it comes to rotation and reading the map. I'll make beginner mistakes every time, even while I wipe the floor with everybody I come across at my rating. And that just isn't going to cut it when your role requires you to go off on your own, making plays. You have to know where to be and when. I lacked the experience to make it work as well as my "just follow the pack" team healer that required relatively little rotation.

Given that, I don't think your experience contradicts mine at all. Match variance is a given. But like I said, those no-chance wins and losses cancel each other out both in the sense that over time you're just as likely to get a win for that reason as a loss and because your competition are in the same boat. What matters are the games that are within your reach. The question is: Do you make the difference in those matches more often than not? If so, you will climb. If not, you will fall. But this is over a large number of matches. You can't just look at a snapshot or you'll only ever notice those ridiculous matchups that never had a chance (And I agree, there are far too many of them!).

That right there - your first sentence - pretty much sums up my entire issue with this.

"Unfortunately, it's a team game."

I just want you to sit back and really mull that over for a couple seconds - A team game...

unfortunately

? I will say I can have some phrasing issues - there's something I'm trying to get at that that I can't quite place, but I think it's pretty well encompassed by 'unfortunately it's a team game' - something is clearly wrong.

Also, you seem to have missed my point - either because I didn't explain it well enough or whatever. Regardless, two times a charm.

Your last paragraph - I am fine with match variance in the sense that I fully expect to lose some and win some. That's fine, and welcome even. What gets me is that no matter win or lose, it far-too-often has little to do with me. Or at least, it feels like it.

DC on the other team? I can't...really improve myself that way. DC on mine and we lose? Same thing. I really want to stress how MUCH variance there is, and how it impacts not only my rating number, but my ability to work myself higher. It's unfortunate that the games that feel close because of teams being relatively equal are few and far between.

Again, I won't deny that there's a possibility of my overestimating my own skill level, but I CAN be relatively certain. Still, I'm a bit 'meh' about your blanket statements near the end of your post. I duo with a friend who has twice the number of matches as I am. They're well above me in skill level, but remain around the same rating I am (They play support firebrand - very well, I might add, and I could never get a handle on that). I'm not too interested in analyzing your experiences - only that yours seems very different (perhaps contradictory was the wrong word), and there's a reason why that is - perhaps that reason needs adjusting of some sort.

Also, I want to stress that the matchmaker is DEFINITELY doing its job as designed....if it was designed to maintain a 50/50 split as much as possible - one DC On my team per DC on the other team, 1 loss 1 win, but I have slightly higher expectations than that.

And yes, I imagine both our PoVs are a tad limited at the moment. If something changes (I got a bit of a late start on the season), I will definitely poke back in here.

GW2 isn't a team game, though. Can't make full teams for ranked, there are loads of bloat options which don't compete against the meta, ranked teams are assembled by what is basically RNG, and every top tier build is entirely selfish (even Firebrand can just be effective on its own by just mindlessly healing itself on a point so long as it survives long enough).

[Abelisk.4527]

I dropped down to gold 3 twice this season, am back to top 25 :blush:

[Amaranthe.3578]

Kind of a moronic statement as there are plenty of people who did exactly that.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Swagg.9236 said:GW2 isn't a team game, though. Can't make full teams for ranked, there are loads of bloat options which don't compete against the meta, ranked teams are assembled by what is basically RNG, and every top tier build is entirely selfish (even Firebrand can just be effective on its own by just mindlessly healing itself on a point so long as it survives long enough).

It's a team game in the context of what I was saying, which the person you're quoting was replying to. I related my experience from a season where I began with a selfish build and couldn't break out of gold 1 with it. But then I switched to a team healer and changed my strategy to stay with the group, at which point I quickly shot up to platinum 1.

Everything you say is true, but my point was that what matters is the impact you have on your team. You can be the baddest duelist around and eat platinum level players for breakfast, but that doesn't automatically win matches in GW2's only PvP format. For me, the difference between gold 1 and plat 1 had nothing to do with matchmaking and nothing to do with my lack of ability. It was the build/strategy I employed. It simply didn't have the impact I anticipated it would.

It makes me wonder how often we blame matchmaking because it's an easy target (especially when you go on one of those monster losing streaks just as your goal is in reach!) when there might be a better explanation that isn't so easy to see.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Dajas.4715" said:What I don't get is that a lot off people in plat have a win ratio off just over 50% who are they more "skilled" then people with the same win ratio in say bronze silver?

It stands to reason that if you are below your skill ceiling (i.e. the rating you're capable of maintaining with your current build, strategy, and level of ability) you will win more often than you lose. However, that will also cause you to climb rating until you reach your skill ceiling. At that point you will begin to lose more than you win, which is why you hit a ceiling. If the matchmaking system were absolutely perfect you would expect every player to achieve close to a 50/50 W:L ratio. That would not, however, mean every player would have the same rating.

[Swagg.9236]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:GW2 isn't a team game, though. Can't make full teams for ranked, there are loads of bloat options which don't compete against the meta, ranked teams are assembled by what is basically RNG, and every top tier build is entirely selfish (even Firebrand can just be effective on its own by just mindlessly healing itself on a point so long as it survives long enough).

It's a team game in the context of what I was saying, which the person you're quoting was replying to. I related my experience from a season where I began with a selfish build and couldn't break out of gold 1 with it. But then I switched to a team healer and changed my strategy to stay with the group, at which point I quickly shot up to platinum 1.

Everything you say is true, but my point was that what matters is the impact you have on your team. You can be the baddest duelist around and eat platinum level players for breakfast, but that doesn't automatically win matches in GW2's only PvP format. For me, the difference between gold 1 and plat 1 had nothing to do with matchmaking and nothing to do with my lack of ability. It was the build/strategy I employed. It simply didn't have the impact I anticipated it would.

It makes me wonder how often we blame matchmaking because it's an easy target (especially when you go on one of those monster losing streaks just as your goal is in reach!) when there might be a better explanation that isn't so easy to see.

Ok, that's fair. I will admit that I didn't really read your entire post before springboarding off of that first part about how "gw2 is supposedly a team game." I felt the same way while getting from g1 to plat: loads of fat plays that sometimes didn't matter because they would be immediately invalidated due to how some players behaved at the same moment or just generally negated due to the match loss.

The meta of this game has always been so selfish. It really hurts big potential playmakers far more than it has ever done to promote playstyles. A real shame.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

@Abelisk.4527 said:I dropped down to gold 3 twice this season, am back to top 25 :blush:

How did match maker allow such a long swing???

Did this happen when you were using a single profession or multiple???