Countless PVP Mesmer Suggestions

[Solori.6025]

@SPESHAL.9106 said:What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)it obviously needed pointless random nerfsThanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.

[storm.3120]

@Solori.6025 said:

@SPESHAL.9106 said:What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)it obviously needed pointless random nerfsThanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.Anet listen to crybabies only because this hush them ,its their priority ,so they bark off . They dont have priority to balance/make things better or whatnot.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Trigr.6481" said:

I find it funny that Mor had a chance to quote you before you had a chance to edit it. Don't tip towards nerfs at all? My proposed changes suggest nerfs to imaginary axes, axes of symmetry, Infinite horizon, and mirror, which would be a big dps loss if those changes saw the light of day. Sneak a buff in? I timestamped everything in the video, if I wanted to sneak something in, I wouldn't have included it with timestamps, hoping someone would gloss over it, or better yet not have made the video at all, and just suggested my ideas straight to the devs without any nerfs to the four I mentioned above. But luckily for you I actually care about balance, and variety as well, for all classes. I can't say the same for you, you have this vendetta of wanting to see mesmer nerfed into the dirt, which is your opinion sure, but it's not helping anyone, even if you think it is. It's a shame to see that you still don't understand the difference between balancing a skill to ensure it's still viable, and nerfing it into obscurity. Because if you did, you would give suggestions on how to do so, instead of making a blanket statement of saying it needs "hard nerfs", that's some great insight you got there. If only the devs have thought of that sooner.

Unlike the above response ^ I am going to take the time to well explain myself rather than spit insults all over the place.

1. Yes, I do have a vendetta towards seeing Mirage nerfed because it should receive the same exact treatment that other specializations are given when they are clearly over performing, which is getting nerfed. I am sick & tired of seeing Mirage allowed so many get out of jail free cards in-game and even when it comes to game design. Every other class gets nerfed, they don't get fancy schmancy reworks that push around & reallocate the sources of their strengths without actually dumbing it down. Why should Mirage be treated differently? Example: A class/build is able to perpetually proc 10 stacks of stability that lasts 10 seconds with a single skill that only has a 10 second cool-down. The player community has widely identified that this single skill is the source of what is making it broken and too powerful. When the players call for a nerf, what they are wanting to see is something like, a 10 stack of stability for 10 seconds single skill with a 10 second cool-down, turn into a 5 stack of stability for 5 seconds on that single skill with a 15 second cool-down. What players do not want to see, is a cop-out "redesign" labeled as "some kind of fix" that divides the 10 stacks of stability for 10 seconds off a single skill, between ten different skills that now all do 1 stack of stability for 10 seconds, all on a 10 second cool-down. Players could argue that this "rework" makes it harder to play or that it was a quality of life change, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP class/build in question, is still benefitting 10 stacks of stability for 10 seconds every 10s. Here are some sobering truths to review for this discussion: "When Spellbreaker was OP, FC cool-down was greatly increased and much of its damage as taken away" "Firebrand received greatly increased cool-downs on its tomes" "Passive Elixir S was removed from Holo" "DE Deaths' Judgement is no longer unblockable" "Druid CA cool-down was greatly increased and 33% of the healing on every CA skill was nerfed" "Scourge had HALF of its boon conversions straight removed from the game" So... why should Mirage be treated differently? Look man, I agree with you, Mirage as the specialization needs a rework. But I also feel that Condi Mirage as the build, needs nerfing. And I'm talking numeric statistical attribute tied chopping. Although this is just my opinion, it is also the opinion of 90% or greater of this community, in-forum and in-game. Many of that 90% is including players who have been here since year 1 or maybe even beta, who have 10,000 or maybe 15,000 games played or more in Guild Wars 2 Conquest Spvp. To suggest that these kind of players have no concept of game balance, is a self centered and ridiculous notion. To anyone who actually believes or suggests this, I'd tell them that they need to come out from under the rock of the main class they play, and try to view the intra-class dynamic from outside of the box, rather than from within as the only class they play.
2. There seems to be some confusion in your response pertaining to what I said in my original statement. You had mentioned that: "I wanted to see mesmer nerfed into the dirt" and "I didn't understand the difference between balancing a skill to ensure it's still viable, and nerfing it into obscurity" then you state that "If I did, I would give suggestions on how to do so." This confused me because, if I hadn't made any balance suggestions at all, how could someone form a basis of opinion that my balance suggestions were poor? If I had not made any balance suggestions at all, how could someone claim that I wanted to see something get nerfed into the dirt? Regardless of what your response was attempting to achieve or suggest, and its strange psychological projection there-in, I only actually said three things which were in direct response to your views of balance, not mine. Firstly I said that turning Desperate Decoy into a force trigger would be a buff, and it would be. Secondly I said that Mirage did not need extra disengage from a super speed after Blink, as you suggest in the video. Thirdly I said that I stopped watching your video when I heard the suggestion that Signet of Humility should also cast an immobilization with the Moa effect. I was confused as to how or why you read me essentially saying "Mirage doesn't need buffs" and then turned it into "Me wanting to see Mirage nerfed into the dirt" in your response. That didn't make sense to me.
3. I can see that you don't pay much attention to feedback that doesn't offer balance suggestions, so I'll give my balance suggestions here and now, this way no one is confused as to quite exactly where I stand concerning "What should happen to Mirage." To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output. I believe a better balance could be achieved through changing how Infinite Horizon and Illusionary Ambush work. First let's talk Infinite Horizon. Most players would say that the fundamental problem is Mirage Cloak itself, allowing the Mirage to essentially dodge while still attacking. I think Mirage Cloak and Ambush skills are fine. I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved, while allowing those clones to land Ambush skills and lay down the pressure of potential Shatters. There is no other class/build in the game now or ever, that could play 100% defensively like this, while still laying down enough attrition AND burst pressure, to be able to threaten even builds that are designed to Bunker vs. conditions. That's a lot of damage reward for complete full defensive play. Other classes/builds most choose "Is it the right time to land offensive pressure? Or should I stay defensive, lay off the attack and make sure I survive?" The Mirage can do both simultaneously. Although this is obnoxious in design, I feel it is balanced up until the point where a player selects Infinite Horizon. At that point, Infinite Horizon turns an already obnoxious mechanical design into something that is too powerful not only mechanically, but also attribute tied with its no cool-down clone ambush hard damage. If it were up to me, Infinite Horizon would receive a 10 second cool-down. This would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently punish attackers with clone Ambush damage, each an every time the attacker chooses to go offensive instead of defensive "remember, other classes can't do both in the same way a Mirage can." With a 10 second cool down, it would mitigate the ambush damage output and force the Mirage to choose more wisely when he should or should not burn a Mirage Cloak. Now Illusionary Ambush, this skill is just too powerful in design. So not only is it an instant cast 1200 range teleport that works as either immediately shifting kiting into shatter position or for mobility disengage when using enemy targeting wisely, but it also breaks enemy target, functions as half a stun break positionally, creates Mirage Cloak, and then procs more Ambush skills. That's a lot of utility for a 20 second cool-down skill. Illusionary Ambush should be reduced to 900 range or less, and its cool-down should be increased to at least 30 seconds, maybe more. this would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently on demand choose whether he wants to be away from you or on top of your head. This would force the Mirage to more wisely choose if it was important to use Illusionary Ambush or not, instead of allowing him to so freely spam the long range 20 second cool-down skill. But that about sums up my balance suggestions. After Mirage is properly nerfed "no cop-out reworks", then I want to see Boonbeasts & Holosmiths get hit.
4. You said I make "blanket statements." Let's talk a bit about that. So, people have to understand that when another person makes a generalized statement, that doesn't always mean it is an actual blanket statement. More often than not, it just means that the person has identified that most people in demographic they are speaking to already understand/associate with their point of view, so why take the time to write out what I did in the above? It's much easier and saves a lot of time in a discussion to simply drop their two cents worth and say "Yeah, I agree it needs nerfs." It doesn't mean they are ignorant, and it doesn't mean they are making blanket statements. If a person were pointing fingers at a majority opinion and calling it a blanket statement, I would suspect that person was part of a minority demographic, and was resorting to despot measures to discredit others in the debacle, because that person couldn't build legitimate credit for their own points of view, because no one agreed with them. But regardless, the hundreds of elaborately well explained text walls that I've written in this forum are hardly blanket statements.

~ Cheers

[mortrialus.3062]

Yes, I do have a vendetta towards seeing Mirage nerfed because it should receive the same exact treatment that other specializations are given when they are clearly over performing, which is getting nerfed. I am sick & tired of seeing Mirage allowed so many get out of jail free cards in-game and even when it comes to game design. Every other class gets nerfed, they don't get fancy schmancy reworks that push around & reallocate the sources of their strengths without actually dumbing it down.

Yeah this is literal nonsense. Every balance patch features a variety of buffs and nerfs for most classes.

A balance patch will nerf Rousing Resiliance's Duration to have 50% the duration and shaves 20% of the healing, but then adds huge amounts of endurance regeneration to Signet of Stamina making it best in slot. Death Perception will lose 16% of it's bonus crit chance, but Reaper's Onslaught gives permanent quickness while in Shroud and Lingering Curse gets buffed to have more condition damage and it makes Scepter 3 AoE. That's true across all classes.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@SPESHAL.9106 said:What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)it obviously needed pointless random nerfsThanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.Anet listen to crybabies only because this hush them ,its their priority ,so they bark off . They dont have priority to balance/make things better or whatnot.

Well, mirage is a cyber bully class after all, off they will cry for nerfs.

[Trigr.6481]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" "I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved"

Did you even watch the video? I mentioned this specifically. Here, I'll even timestamp it for you. 15:45 just in case.

But yeah there's no point in continuing to go in circles with you if you're mentioning things that I've already covered, sorry.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)it obviously needed pointless random nerfsThanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.Anet listen to crybabies only because this hush them ,its their priority ,so they bark off . They dont have priority to balance/make things better or whatnot.

Well, mirage is a cyber bully class after all, off they will cry for nerfs.

hahahahah "Cyber Bully Class"...oh wait...you were serious....BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Gimmie your lunch money :trollface:

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Although this is just my opinion, it is also the opinion of 90% or greater of this community, in-forum and in-game....To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output.

I'm in a similar camp where I think damage output should be toned down while mostly preserving defenses, according to Mirage's slippery trickster concept. I'd be fine with your changes to IH and IA. Unfortunately, from what I see in this forum, I think at least half of that "90% or greater of this community" you mention would still be unsatisfied and take to complaining and demanding moar nerfs. A lot of them simply despise the evasive nature of the profession, feeling like they're impossible to hit, and have too many ways to escape. They come here posting laundry lists of every potential defensive skill/trait available to the profession as proof positive that it's busted, without actually understanding the builds, limitations, and tradeoffs being made. They have a hard time with Mirages and that's all they need to know to vilify them as everything that's wrong with PvP. Too many buy into the easy ego-preserver that losing to a Mirage is 100% because Mirage is broken, and not that they made mistakes or could stand to learn and improve. If more took the time to play and understand the profession like you, before shooting off misguided complaints and calls for inappropriate nerfs, the health of the game and the community would be better.

[Curunen.8729]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Although this is just my opinion, it is also the opinion of 90% or greater of this community, in-forum and in-game....To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output.

I'm in a similar camp where I think damage output should be toned down while mostly preserving defenses, according to Mirage's slippery trickster concept. I'd be fine with your changes to IH and IA. Unfortunately, from what I see in this forum, I think at least half of that "90% or greater of this community" you mention would still be unsatisfied and take to complaining and demanding moar nerfs. A lot of them simply despise the evasive nature of the profession, feeling like they're impossible to hit, and have too many ways to escape. They come here posting laundry lists of every potential defensive skill/trait available to the profession as proof positive that it's busted, without actually understanding the builds, limitations, and tradeoffs being made. They have a hard time with Mirages and that's all they need to know to vilify them as everything that's wrong with PvP. Too many buy into the easy ego-preserver that losing to a Mirage is 100% because Mirage is broken, and not that they made mistakes or could stand to learn and improve. If more took the time to play and understand the profession like you, before shooting off misguided complaints and calls for inappropriate nerfs, the health of the game and the community would be better.

This I can get behind - trimming the ancilliary condi application and overall spam damage output while preserving the ability to burst (providing opponents with clear attacks to avoid rather than thinking they lose unless they avoid everything), but leaving the mind trickery alone.

It's nice to read that at least there seems to be this realisation of focus on one specific aspect that should be reigned in, rather than "nuke everything from orbit - stealth, evade, invuln, detarget, teleport, condi spam, damage, instacast" etc...

[Vagrant.7206]

As I said in my other thread, the problem is that it's simply doing too much all at once. If you're a bunker, that's fine. If you're mobility, that's fine. If you're offense, that's fine. What's not fine is that condi mirage is all three at once. One of those things has to go.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:As I said in my other thread, the problem is that it's simply doing too much all at once. If you're a bunker, that's fine. If you're mobility, that's fine. If you're offense, that's fine. What's not fine is that condi mirage is all three at once. One of those things has to go.

Just to be sure, are we talking holo and soulbeast here too?